[opensuse] speaking of cloning....

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James Tremblay

4 Jul 2007 4 Jul '07

21:07

How does on build an image for and what tools does one need to clone a master image to a lab? If the simple copying of an image leaves you with an unbootable system and even a tool like ACRONIS leaves you with tasks what then does one do? Is there a set of commands like "sysprep" for creating a master? Is there a guide? -- James Tremblay Director of Technology Newmarket School District Newmarket,NH http://en.opensuse.org/Education "let's make a difference" -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

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Per Jessen

5 Jul 5 Jul

11:05

James Tremblay wrote:

...

How does on build an image for and what tools does one need to clone a master image to a lab? Is there a set of commands like "sysprep" for creating a master? Is there a guide?

Here is what I do: Create image file: 1. create the model system 2. stop the model system 3. boot e.g. Knoppix or other rescue system 4. for each partition to be copied do 4a. mount <part> /mnt 4b. cd /mnt 4c. tar czvf <imagefile> * .* 4d. cd - 4e. umount /mnt Install image file: 1. boot target system from knoppix or rescue or with NFS-root or or or 2. partition drive 3. create filesystems 4. for each partition do 4a. mount <part> /mnt 4b. cd /mnt 4c. tar xzvf <imagefile> 4d. cd - 4e. umount /mnt 5. run lilo if you intend to boot from harddisk. /Per Jessen, Zürich -- http://www.spamchek.com/ - your spam is our business. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Per Jessen

11:10

Per Jessen wrote:

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Install image file:

1. boot target system from knoppix or rescue or with NFS-root or or or 2. partition drive 3. create filesystems 4. for each partition do 4a. mount <part> /mnt 4b. cd /mnt 4c. tar xzvf <imagefile> 4d. cd - 4e. umount /mnt 5. run lilo if you intend to boot from harddisk.

Forgot to add that you need to create mount points such as /proc, maybe /dev, /sys. And I think you may need to exclude them from tar when creating the image file. /Per Jessen, Zürich -- http://www.spamchek.com/ - your spam is our business. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

James Tremblay

13:08

On Thu, 2007-07-05 at 13:10 +0200, Per Jessen wrote:

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Per Jessen wrote:

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Install image file:

1. boot target system from knoppix or rescue or with NFS-root or or or 2. partition drive 3. create filesystems 4. for each partition do 4a. mount <part> /mnt 4b. cd /mnt 4c. tar xzvf <imagefile> 4d. cd - 4e. umount /mnt 5. run lilo if you intend to boot from harddisk.

Forgot to add that you need to create mount points such as /proc, maybe /dev, /sys. And I think you may need to exclude them from tar when creating the image file. Per, Thank you for the answer. That is a really complicated process, I imagine that you are telling me this needs to be done to each recipient? could it be set up as a pxe boot task? What about bit transfer type solutions like Ghost? Is there no way of setting a running system back to the hardware discovery process? could one re-invoke YaST-install at the last stage (after first reboot, when the system believes it has all its files in place? -- James Tremblay Director of Technology Newmarket School District Newmarket,NH http://en.opensuse.org/Education "let's make a difference"

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Jerry Feldman

14:57

On Thu, 05 Jul 2007 09:08:44 -0400 James Tremblay wrote:

...

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Forgot to add that you need to create mount points such as /proc, maybe /dev, /sys. And I think you may need to exclude them from tar when creating the image file. Per, Thank you for the answer. That is a really complicated process, I imagine that you are telling me this needs to be done to each recipient? could it be set up as a pxe boot task? What about bit transfer type solutions like Ghost? Is there no way of setting a running system back to the hardware discovery process? could one re-invoke YaST-install at the last stage (after first reboot, when the system believes it has all its files in place?

A couple of things: 1. Take a look at CloneZilla http://clonezilla.sourceforge.net/ 2. AFAIK, the virtual file systems, such as /proc are strictly virtual and are created on the fly. -- Jerry Feldman Boston Linux and Unix user group http://www.blu.org PGP key id:C5061EA9 PGP Key fingerprint:053C 73EC 3AC1 5C44 3E14 9245 FB00 3ED5 C506 1EA9

Michael Letourneau

15:21

Jerry Feldman wrote:

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On Thu, 05 Jul 2007 09:08:44 -0400 A couple of things: 1. Take a look at CloneZilla http://clonezilla.sourceforge.net/ 2. AFAIK, the virtual file systems, such as /proc are strictly virtual and are created on the fly.

-- Jerry Feldman Boston Linux and Unix user group http://www.blu.org PGP key id:C5061EA9 PGP Key fingerprint:053C 73EC 3AC1 5C44 3E14 9245 FB00 3ED5 C506 1EA9

There is also Ghost for Linux http://freshmeat.net/projects/g4l/ , which though I have not used, essentially bundles standard linux tools to get the job done. I have, in the past, setup netcat, and copied a live system over to another system using dd. I needed minimum downtime, and thankfully it was not in heavy use at the time, nor did it have a database, all of which would have made for a disaster. But it was quick, dirty and got the job done. If you have an image you could do the same thing, from a non-live system. And it would prove rather straight forward I think, and should handle the boot records without having to do run grub-install or lilo afterwards. James - nice to see another NHer on the list... Michael -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

James Tremblay

16:22

On Thu, 2007-07-05 at 11:21 -0400, Michael Letourneau wrote:

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Jerry Feldman wrote:

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On Thu, 05 Jul 2007 09:08:44 -0400 A couple of things: 1. Take a look at CloneZilla http://clonezilla.sourceforge.net/ 2. AFAIK, the virtual file systems, such as /proc are strictly virtual and are created on the fly.

-- Jerry Feldman Boston Linux and Unix user group http://www.blu.org PGP key id:C5061EA9 PGP Key fingerprint:053C 73EC 3AC1 5C44 3E14 9245 FB00 3ED5 C506 1EA9

There is also Ghost for Linux http://freshmeat.net/projects/g4l/ , which though I have not used, essentially bundles standard linux tools to get the job done.

I have, in the past, setup netcat, and copied a live system over to another system using dd. I needed minimum downtime, and thankfully it was not in heavy use at the time, nor did it have a database, all of which would have made for a disaster. But it was quick, dirty and got the job done. If you have an image you could do the same thing, from a non-live system. And it would prove rather straight forward I think, and should handle the boot records without having to do run grub-install or lilo afterwards.

James - nice to see another NHer on the list...

Michael

Michael, thanks for the Help. Maybe we can work together on this? -- James Tremblay Director of Technology Newmarket School District Newmarket,NH http://en.opensuse.org/Education "let's make a difference" -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Jerry Feldman

18:05

On Thu, 05 Jul 2007 12:22:53 -0400 James Tremblay wrote:

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thanks for the Help. Maybe we can work together on this?

Also, you might want to join the Greater Newhampshire Linux User Group, GNHLUG. They hold regular meetings throughout NH. This is the group that Maddog Hall formed when he was still at Digital in Nashua. There are a number of former digits that possibly could help you in person. There was one of the groups that used to meet in Portsmouth, and the Nashua group used to meet in Durham during the winter. -- Jerry Feldman Boston Linux and Unix user group http://www.blu.org PGP key id:C5061EA9 PGP Key fingerprint:053C 73EC 3AC1 5C44 3E14 9245 FB00 3ED5 C506 1EA9

Dave Howorth

14:28

On Wed, 2007-07-04 at 17:07 -0400, James Tremblay wrote:

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How does on build an image for and what tools does one need to clone a master image to a lab? If the simple copying of an image leaves you with an unbootable system

What makes you say this? If the systems are identical why can't you just copy the raw disk from the master system? Cheers, Dave -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

James Tremblay

16:18

On Thu, 2007-07-05 at 15:28 +0100, Dave Howorth wrote:

...

On Wed, 2007-07-04 at 17:07 -0400, James Tremblay wrote:

...
How does on build an image for and what tools does one need to clone a master image to a lab? If the simple copying of an image leaves you with an unbootable system

What makes you say this? If the systems are identical why can't you just copy the raw disk from the master system?

Dave, I have four different model IBM's in my school ranging from pIII 1000Mhz to pIV 2.8 Ghz , currently I use one Master WinXP image for Zenworks imaging. I can't seem to find any documentation for creating this same kind of "Master Image" for SLED. I understand that Imaging will be less of an issue with Linux due to the severely lowered privilege's regarding installing software into the core operating system, but I still need to be able to overcome any form of corruption quickly. I would also like to distribute a dual boot system image for few years. How do automate the local host name change for Zenworks importing and management? -- James Tremblay Director of Technology Newmarket School District Newmarket,NH http://en.opensuse.org/Education "let's make a difference" -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Carl Spitzer

13 Jul 13 Jul

22:28

On Thu, 2007-07-05 at 12:18 -0400, James Tremblay wrote:

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Dave, I have four different model IBM's in my school ranging from pIII 1000Mhz to pIV 2.8 Ghz , currently I use one Master WinXP image for Zenworks imaging. I can't seem to find any documentation for creating this same kind of "Master Image" for SLED. I understand that Imaging will be less of an issue with Linux due to the severely lowered privilege's regarding installing software into the core operating system, but I still need to be able to overcome any form of corruption quickly. I would also like to distribute a dual boot system image for few years. How do automate the local host name change for Zenworks importing and management?

With different hardware any image of the windows part of the drive will be a problem. You will need safe mode and to fuss with drivers. For SuSE its much easier boot to mode 3; run SaX2 -l; init 5; login as root at which point the different hardware will be found click yes for the reconfiguration and your fine. I installed 9.2 this way on a PIII and moved the disk to the PII because the PIII had the DVD. As I remember Zenworks like VMware is for running multiple OS in parallel. But first you want an image for SLED and to dual boot. There I think its easier first start with your XP partition on what we will call the primary system which would be on hda1 and I assume no file exchange partition as users will have flash drives. Second partition the rest of the drive as an extended partition into which you will use Yast/Custome partitioning for the logical partitions for Linux. I recommend using the standard four, /boot / swap and /home as hda5, hda6, hda7 and hda8 respectively. Now here its tricky DVD backup will fail over time due to media failure so consider it temporary, harddrives can fail but overtime they have a longer shelf life than the ten years commonly assumed for CDR and DVDR. So backup your backup at least yearly and make incrementals if you make small changes. You can also mirror the drive onto another drive say in a USB inclosure. Yes you want to be paranoid. Now for that master image of the dual booting drive you just created. As long as the target device is the same or larger than the source you can use device-device to copy /dev/hda to /dev/hdb thats not just one partition but the whole drive byte by byte partitions and all. All that is needed is the target to be on the network somewhere hdb here is only an example as I have a system with two caddy because for a long time I only had one burner so I used sneaker net to bring the drive to backup. If however you want to do this on systems which are remote or just not on the network then you can use mondo-rescue to make an install set for all the programs on your system. If you want the Windows partition included it must be mounted at the time you run mondo. Then you will have an executable setup which boots and installs the disks. -- ___ _ _ _ ____ _ _ _ | | | | [__ | | | |___ |_|_| ___] | \/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

G T Smith

14 Jul 14 Jul

08:46

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Carl Spitzer wrote:

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On Thu, 2007-07-05 at 12:18 -0400, James Tremblay wrote:

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Dave, I have four different model IBM's in my school ranging from pIII 1000Mhz to pIV 2.8 Ghz , currently I use one Master WinXP image for Zenworks imaging. I can't seem to find any documentation for creating this same kind of "Master Image" for SLED. I understand that Imaging will be less of an issue with Linux due to the severely lowered privilege's regarding installing software into the core operating system, but I still need to be able to overcome any form of corruption quickly. I would also like to distribute a dual boot system image for few years. How do automate the local host name change for Zenworks importing and management?

<snip>

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As I remember Zenworks like VMware is for running multiple OS in parallel.

You are confusing Zenworks which does a lot more than cloning with XEN which is a virtualisation framework.... <snip>

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Now here its tricky DVD backup will fail over time due to media failure so consider it temporary, harddrives can fail but overtime they have a longer shelf life than the ten years commonly assumed for CDR and DVDR.

?! Everything fails over time... (and in the long run we are all dead, at least according to J. Maynard Keynes :-) ) And you expect to be cloning the same images in 10 years time ?. DVDs have four major advantages, they are cheap, they do not deteriorate if not used, and they are robust (you would have to work hard to break one by dropping it), and they are small and light. (With recent technical advances giving possible storage significantly better than the current 4Gb, and with recent research pointing to a possibility of a 0.5Terabyte DVD they may become a much more useful long term storage solution). Hard drives are relatively expensive compared to DVDs, they are relatively bulky and heavy (what would prefer to carry up 5 floors a 10g DVD or a 1Kg drive caddy), being electro-magnetic media they will loose information if that information is not retrieved regularly, and they are relatively fragile (they are much more prone to physical shock damage). I do not think there is a question which is more appropriate this purpose at the moment.

...

If however you want to do this on systems which are remote or just not on the network then you can use mondo-rescue to make an install set for

<snip> This application is not one I know of, but I do think that you are confusing the requirements of a backup regime with the requirement of system cloning. - -- ============================================================================== I have always wished that my computer would be as easy to use as my telephone. My wish has come true. I no longer know how to use my telephone. Bjarne Stroustrup ============================================================================== -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFGmI1MasN0sSnLmgIRAoHAAKD3jj8agkUpizcuRGck/x4UL9KVEwCdF7DD E4lQrr/7G0TjZtsvKA28K8Y= =Mxdk -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

G T Smith

5 Jul 5 Jul

16:22

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Dave Howorth wrote:

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On Wed, 2007-07-04 at 17:07 -0400, James Tremblay wrote:

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How does on build an image for and what tools does one need to clone a master image to a lab? If the simple copying of an image leaves you with an unbootable system

What makes you say this? If the systems are identical why can't you just copy the raw disk from the master system?

Cheers, Dave

I think this really depends on whether one wants to clone a configuration in which some settings are unique to the workstation i.e. certificates, I.D.s, keys, hardware drivers etc but the installed application base is the same, or just make a mirror image. This is a common problem in the Education sector where one needs to a lot of machines with apparently the same set of applications. The former does make this installation relatively straightforward, the latter could give major headaches if you need to put the same image on multiple machines, and would not be entirely useful when hardware components had changed What would be useful is a script could be run against an already configured machine, that created a DVD (or network image) containing all hardware related RPMS, only the RPMs required for the particular setup, Then installed a script which went through the hardware phase, automatically installed the defined RPMs and then generated unique keys/certificates as the installation CD/DVD does and only prompts for things like machine name for a configured machine The YaST AutoInstall system seems to have some of the this kind of capability but seems to be rather complex to use .... In fact page 2 of the manual for this answers your question to some extent... Ghost used to do this with Windows, but I do not think the consumer version does this anymore. The only other tools I have come across which could do this are commercial (Ultris, Zen and something from M$). - -- ============================================================================== I have always wished that my computer would be as easy to use as my telephone. My wish has come true. I no longer know how to use my telephone. Bjarne Stroustrup ============================================================================== -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFGjRrZasN0sSnLmgIRAmu6AKD4/2tyWziVig6Yys3wxwVDYL2oJwCgtYBP EJrua+dydD0NfoT+SBvNHFM= =KWvL -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

James Tremblay

18:14

On Thu, 2007-07-05 at 17:22 +0100, G T Smith wrote:

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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1

Dave Howorth wrote:

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On Wed, 2007-07-04 at 17:07 -0400, James Tremblay wrote:

...
How does on build an image for and what tools does one need to clone a master image to a lab? If the simple copying of an image leaves you with an unbootable system

What makes you say this? If the systems are identical why can't you just copy the raw disk from the master system?

Cheers, Dave

I think this really depends on whether one wants to clone a configuration in which some settings are unique to the workstation i.e. certificates, I.D.s, keys, hardware drivers etc but the installed application base is the same, or just make a mirror image.

This is a common problem in the Education sector where one needs to a lot of machines with apparently the same set of applications. The former does make this installation relatively straightforward, the latter could give major headaches if you need to put the same image on multiple machines, and would not be entirely useful when hardware components had changed

What would be useful is a script could be run against an already configured machine, that created a DVD (or network image) containing all hardware related RPMS, only the RPMs required for the particular setup, Then installed a script which went through the hardware phase, automatically installed the defined RPMs and then generated unique keys/certificates as the installation CD/DVD does and only prompts for things like machine name for a configured machine

The YaST AutoInstall system seems to have some of the this kind of capability but seems to be rather complex to use .... In fact page 2 of the manual for this answers your question to some extent...

Ghost used to do this with Windows, but I do not think the consumer version does this anymore. The only other tools I have come across which could do this are commercial (Ultris, Zen and something from M$).

GT, Thanks for your answer. I have an SLA with Novell that includes the Zenworks Suite, I'm having a hard time finding any documentation pertaining to "preparing a SLED10 \SUSE linux image for Cloning".

...

James Tremblay Director of Technology Newmarket School District Newmarket,NH http://en.opensuse.org/Education "let's make a difference"

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G T Smith

6 Jul 6 Jul

09:10

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 James Tremblay wrote:

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On Thu, 2007-07-05 at 17:22 +0100, G T Smith wrote:

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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1

Dave Howorth wrote:

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On Wed, 2007-07-04 at 17:07 -0400, James Tremblay wrote:

...
How does on build an image for and what tools does one need to clone a master image to a lab? If the simple copying of an image leaves you with an unbootable system What makes you say this? If the systems are identical why can't you just copy the raw disk from the master system?

Cheers, Dave

<snip>

...

...
What would be useful is a script could be run against an already configured machine, that created a DVD (or network image) containing all hardware related RPMS, only the RPMs required for the particular setup, Then installed a script which went through the hardware phase, automatically installed the defined RPMs and then generated unique keys/certificates as the installation CD/DVD does and only prompts for things like machine name for a configured machine

The YaST AutoInstall system seems to have some of the this kind of capability but seems to be rather complex to use .... In fact page 2 of the manual for this answers your question to some extent...

<snip>

...

GT, Thanks for your answer. I have an SLA with Novell that includes the Zenworks Suite, I'm having a hard time finding any documentation pertaining to "preparing a SLED10 \SUSE linux image for Cloning".

Spent a lot of time trying to get the Institution I used to work to (allow me to) test and hopefully deploy Zenworks ... No success *sigh* Looking at the AutoInstall documentation further it seems that it uses a XML based script which largely goes through the options described by other posters in cloning a machine. Real problem is that no mechanism seems to exist to import an existing package configuration into the script and support for non-SuSE supported applications and other things (e.g. Netbeans, Funambol) that deploy either using a bin or jar file is a bit limited. The documentation can be found at... http://www.suse.de/~ug/autoyast_doc/index.html there is some further work going on but I would suspect Novell may be moving towards a Zenworks based solution. For my purposes, I want to establish a base-line configuration that has some flexibility on hardware configuration, so the next time I have the kind of messy system collapse I have just had, or I want to move to new hardware I can quickly get going again. Unfortunately, binary level disk image cloning is not an option, and even it was does not have any flexibility (it is rare after a hardware related failure that one is restoring to the same hardware configuration). I intend to research this further when I have rebuilt the failed machine.

...

...
James Tremblay Director of Technology Newmarket School District Newmarket,NH http://en.opensuse.org/Education "let's make a difference"

- -- ============================================================================== I have always wished that my computer would be as easy to use as my telephone. My wish has come true. I no longer know how to use my telephone. Bjarne Stroustrup ============================================================================== -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFGjgb7asN0sSnLmgIRAslFAJ9ihgXCBBrvN2bZx4l/am02PF6ChACdEJCj ZL9ujaG/KULwSAL8XGkoDVw= =4i0v -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Carlos E. R.

09:42

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 The Friday 2007-07-06 at 10:10 +0100, G T Smith wrote: ...

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Looking at the AutoInstall documentation further it seems that it uses a XML based script which largely goes through the options described by other posters in cloning a machine. Real problem is that no mechanism seems to exist to import an existing package configuration into the script and support for non-SuSE supported applications and other things (e.g. Netbeans, Funambol) that deploy either using a bin or jar file is a bit limited.

...

For my purposes, I want to establish a base-line configuration that has some flexibility on hardware configuration, so the next time I have the kind of messy system collapse I have just had, or I want to move to new hardware I can quickly get going again. Unfortunately, binary level disk image cloning is not an option, and even it was does not have any flexibility (it is rare after a hardware related failure that one is restoring to the same hardware configuration).

For hardware flexibility, autoyast would be best, probably. However, another solution is simply to have a standard backup in a server, You fire up a live system in a client (usb?), then fire a script, either in usb or remote that does the formatting of the hd, mount the new empty filesystem into the live system, create the empty dirs for /dev, /sys, /proc, then the copying over of files from the server using something like rsync. The final step would be to install grub automatically. Ah, no, I forget: you need to copy over some files for host name and ip, and probably run suseconfig. Another possibility is to run autoyast, then run rsync over the result to install "the rest" of things. Actually, I like better the autoyast thing: it will handle things like card differences. If you want disk images, then try ghost for linux. It doesn't have the whistles of the commercial Ghost, but it should do. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Made with pgp4pine 1.76 iD8DBQFGjg6dtTMYHG2NR9URAqMDAJ0e40xZEXwA74qFItSS//qNmNhlkACfV7ih B2/NaVLuSaXoxyZy47/QjQY= =Y9lj -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Martin Vuk

7 Jul 7 Jul

00:39

Isn't KIWI(http://en.opensuse.org/KIWI) supposed to be the tool for that purpose? It can be used to make Xen images, so I see no reason why it could not make normal disk images. Anyway, I use autoyast for bootstraping the initial system and than use puppet(http://reductivelabs.com/projects/puppet/) for additional configuration. It takes a bit of learning, but it pays off after a while. Martin 2007/7/6, Carlos E. R. :

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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1

The Friday 2007-07-06 at 10:10 +0100, G T Smith wrote:

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...
Looking at the AutoInstall documentation further it seems that it uses a XML based script which largely goes through the options described by other posters in cloning a machine. Real problem is that no mechanism seems to exist to import an existing package configuration into the script and support for non-SuSE supported applications and other things (e.g. Netbeans, Funambol) that deploy either using a bin or jar file is a bit limited.

...

...
For my purposes, I want to establish a base-line configuration that has some flexibility on hardware configuration, so the next time I have the kind of messy system collapse I have just had, or I want to move to new hardware I can quickly get going again. Unfortunately, binary level disk image cloning is not an option, and even it was does not have any flexibility (it is rare after a hardware related failure that one is restoring to the same hardware configuration).

For hardware flexibility, autoyast would be best, probably.

However, another solution is simply to have a standard backup in a server, You fire up a live system in a client (usb?), then fire a script, either in usb or remote that does the formatting of the hd, mount the new empty filesystem into the live system, create the empty dirs for /dev, /sys, /proc, then the copying over of files from the server using something like rsync. The final step would be to install grub automatically. Ah, no, I forget: you need to copy over some files for host name and ip, and probably run suseconfig.

Another possibility is to run autoyast, then run rsync over the result to install "the rest" of things.

Actually, I like better the autoyast thing: it will handle things like card differences.

If you want disk images, then try ghost for linux. It doesn't have the whistles of the commercial Ghost, but it should do.

- -- Cheers, Carlos E. R.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Made with pgp4pine 1.76

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G T Smith

10:04

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Martin Vuk wrote:

...

Isn't KIWI(http://en.opensuse.org/KIWI) supposed to be the tool for that purpose? It can be used to make Xen images, so I see no reason why it could not make normal disk images.

KIWI seems to be targeted at getting boot images on various removable media. To some extent XEN creates a similarly dynamic environment. This is not system cloning, but has very similar requirements. Binary disk images for system cloning are IMHO problematic in that the end product tends to be monolithic, to make a small change one has to rebuild the whole thing. A further weakness is that if a disk image gets damaged you can loose the whole thing, an installation rpm based approach means you have the option of repairing just the damaged component in a clean manner. (GHOST in particular suffers from this problem, 8 CDs into rebuild, sorry no 9 is corrupt ... no cigar ... but smoke will be seen :-)... )....

...

Anyway, I use autoyast for bootstraping the initial system and than use puppet(http://reductivelabs.com/projects/puppet/) for additional configuration. It takes a bit of learning, but it pays off after a while.

The first is the target for me, a base system build image. Combined with the regular backup of working data should allow rapid recovery from failure. If I add a new system component configuration can be deployed as either an additional custom rpm in (or separate from) the base image. puppet seems to do what Zenworks does. However, Zenworks was (and I expect still is), closely tied to NDS tools and functionality and does not really require learning a scripting language to deploy. Such tools are useful for the after care and day to day phase i.e. for distributing and maintaining applications dynamically. For my (and most people running small setups) this approach is probably overkill. For educational lab scenarios and medium to large businesses it is a worthwhile strategy. Online update (when functioning) is pretty effective in this role in the small environment... This is a useful contribution. System cloning, System Restore and backup are different but inter-related activities and disk cloning and dynamic system maintenance are useful technologies to support these activities. (One should not confuse the hammer with the house however :-) ).

...

Martin

- -- ============================================================================== I have always wished that my computer would be as easy to use as my telephone. My wish has come true. I no longer know how to use my telephone. Bjarne Stroustrup ============================================================================== -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFGj2USasN0sSnLmgIRAswcAKCaCRaGjpybtMxSMfmYnaRg6aNl7ACg0bRv 7Je8BqwXYOMgsB0ws1F5VRI= =9Udn -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

James Tremblay

20:44

On Sat, 2007-07-07 at 11:04 +0100, G T Smith wrote:

...

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1

Martin Vuk wrote:

...
Isn't KIWI(http://en.opensuse.org/KIWI) supposed to be the tool for that purpose? It can be used to make Xen images, so I see no reason why it could not make normal disk images.

KIWI seems to be targeted at getting boot images on various removable media. To some extent XEN creates a similarly dynamic environment. This is not system cloning, but has very similar requirements.

Binary disk images for system cloning are IMHO problematic in that the end product tends to be monolithic, to make a small change one has to rebuild the whole thing. A further weakness is that if a disk image gets damaged you can loose the whole thing, an installation rpm based approach means you have the option of repairing just the damaged component in a clean manner.

(GHOST in particular suffers from this problem, 8 CDs into rebuild, sorry no 9 is corrupt ... no cigar ... but smoke will be seen :-)... )....

...
Anyway, I use autoyast for bootstraping the initial system and than use puppet(http://reductivelabs.com/projects/puppet/) for additional configuration. It takes a bit of learning, but it pays off after a while.

The first is the target for me, a base system build image. Combined with the regular backup of working data should allow rapid recovery from failure. If I add a new system component configuration can be deployed as either an additional custom rpm in (or separate from) the base image.

puppet seems to do what Zenworks does. However, Zenworks was (and I expect still is), closely tied to NDS tools and functionality and does not really require learning a scripting language to deploy. Such tools are useful for the after care and day to day phase i.e. for distributing and maintaining applications dynamically.

For my (and most people running small setups) this approach is probably overkill. For educational lab scenarios and medium to large businesses it is a worthwhile strategy. Online update (when functioning) is pretty effective in this role in the small environment...

This is a useful contribution. System cloning, System Restore and backup are different but inter-related activities and disk cloning and dynamic system maintenance are useful technologies to support these activities. (One should not confuse the hammer with the house however :-) ).

Hey guys maybe we should put a paper together for the wiki? I found some interesting words about using the "firstboot" process. -- James Tremblay Director of Technology Newmarket School District Newmarket,NH http://en.opensuse.org/Education "let's make a difference" -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Pavel Nemec

9 Jul 9 Jul

06:56

Dne Wednesday 04 July 2007 23:07:34 James Tremblay napsal(a):

...

How does on build an image for and what tools does one need to clone a master image to a lab? If the simple copying of an image leaves you with an unbootable system and even a tool like ACRONIS leaves you with tasks what then does one do? Is there a set of commands like "sysprep" for creating a master? Is there a guide? -- James Tremblay Director of Technology Newmarket School District Newmarket,NH http://en.opensuse.org/Education "let's make a difference"

I read this interesting thread and i want to give you my 2` cents. For purpose booting many computers with same (similar) image and for updating them we use special process in NLPOS9. We boot standard system (small kernel with small initrd) from PXE/DHCP and than download "working" image over ftp. Then we unpack this working image and chroot in it. All configurations are done off-line, when image is prepared. After every boot we can ensure updated and prepared environment. Images could be build with kiwi [1] For more information about NLPOS9 [2] - 1.1 Architecture overview [1] - http://en.opensuse.org/KIWI [2] - http://www.novell.com/documentation/nlpos9/pdfdoc/nlpos9_install/nlpos9_inst... -- Pavel Nemec Software Engineer --------------------------------------------------------------------- SuSE CR, s.r.o. e-mail: pnemec@suse.cz Lihovarska 1060/12 tel:+420 284 028 981 190 00 Praha 9 fax:+420 296 542 374 Ceska republika http://www.suse.cz --------------------------------------------------------------------- HACK WEEK http://idea.opensuse.org/

G T Smith

08:03

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Pavel Nemec wrote:

...

Dne Wednesday 04 July 2007 23:07:34 James Tremblay napsal(a):

...
How does on build an image for and what tools does one need to clone a

...
master image to a lab?

<snip>

...

I read this interesting thread and i want to give you my 2` cents.

For purpose booting many computers with same (similar) image and for updating them we use special process in NLPOS9.

We boot standard system (small kernel with small initrd) from PXE/DHCP and than download "working" image over ftp. Then we unpack this working image and chroot in it. All configurations are done off-line, when image is prepared.

After every boot we can ensure updated and prepared environment. Images could be build with kiwi [1]

For more information about NLPOS9 [2] - 1.1 Architecture overview

[1] - http://en.opensuse.org/KIWI

[2] - http://www.novell.com/documentation/nlpos9/pdfdoc/nlpos9_install/nlpos9_inst...

--

Very interesting... I have worked with remote boot with Netware/DOS in the past and it worked well until Windows 95 made life difficult. I had a little trouble with getting the pdf for [2] (connection kept locking), but the html based docs were informative. I was unaware of this (but thats Novells Marketting for you :-) ) but it is technology one should be aware of for serious educational or corporate use.

...

Pavel Nemec

Software Engineer

---------------------------------------------------------------------

SuSE CR, s.r.o. e-mail: pnemec@suse.cz

Lihovarska 1060/12 tel:+420 284 028 981

190 00 Praha 9 fax:+420 296 542 374

Ceska republika http://www.suse.cz

---------------------------------------------------------------------

HACK WEEK http://idea.opensuse.org/

- -- ============================================================================== I have always wished that my computer would be as easy to use as my telephone. My wish has come true. I no longer know how to use my telephone. Bjarne Stroustrup ============================================================================== -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFGkeu1asN0sSnLmgIRAjH7AKCp2lcwQm9uAk3WT598bbixpwfE0QCfYx44 POO3AnKsic4qCfEXg0FFZoo= =sETX -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Martin Vuk

10:08

2007/7/9, Pavel Nemec :

...

We boot standard system (small kernel with small initrd) from PXE/DHCP and than download "working" image over ftp. Then we unpack this working image and chroot in it. All configurations are done off-line, when image is prepared. Nice! I didn't know about that project. Redhat had a similar project called "statless linux". The main idea was to separate program and configuration files which are static, from dynamic system files (like in /var and in /tmp) and user files. This way they could mount root filesystem read only and one image could be shared among many clients. And one can install it either on hard disk, on CD(DVD), USB key or mount it as a NFS share.

My personal opinion is that separation like this should be in the mainstream distribution in the first place. It makes cloning a lot easier. But dynamic files (/etc/mtab is the first example that comes to mind) kreept into parts of filesystem which are not meant to be dynamic. Files like this make liveCD-s and diskless clients dificult to prepare and update. Tools like unionfs would not be necessary if there was clear separation. System images made with KIWI are targeted for read-only media, so the separation of static and dynamic files is already there. That is why I find it suitable for system cloning. Of course for instalation on hard disk one does not need compresion and instead of building compressed image one could just make root filesystem tree and untar it. You could easily update the image and cloning would then just consist of taring the / again (and maybe /home and /srv). Wiki page on cloning seems very good Idea to me. Martin -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

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participants (10)

Carl Spitzer
Carlos E. R.
Dave Howorth
G T Smith
James Tremblay
Jerry Feldman
Martin Vuk
Michael Letourneau
Pavel Nemec
Per Jessen