Hello all. We could trash the last Windows machine in our house if we could use tax-preparation software from Linux (my wife has now reached the point where she's happy to use Linux for everything else -- thank you OpenOffice :-). The sticking point is that she's been using Intuit's QuickTax for years and is very pleased with it. One benefit is that it keeps tax-related info over several years. We've Googled for any tax software that works in Linux and not found any. The government web site lists tax software that they recognize, and it's all Windows or Mac software. There were threads in Wine discussion lists saying that a QuickTax install verification procedure instituted in 2002 makes it no longer possible to run QuickTax through Wine. We're in Canada, and we have a non-default tax situation, meaning that we usually need some of the supplementary forms, not just the basic two-pager. Any ideas? Suggestions? I'd love to dump Win98 forever. Kevin (in Ottawa)
On Sun November 28 2004 11:33 am, elefino wrote:
Hello all.
We could trash the last Windows machine in our house if we could use tax-preparation software from Linux (my wife has now reached the point where she's happy to use Linux for everything else -- thank you OpenOffice :-).
The sticking point is that she's been using Intuit's QuickTax for years and is very pleased with it. One benefit is that it keeps tax-related info over several years.
What you need to do, is do what I do, and CALL Intuit every 3 to 4 months. I use KOrganizer to set a reminder for me that is reoccuring for Intuit and some other companies who are weak-spined and give into MickySoft. IF THOUSANDS were calling them every month, they'd soon get the message that they ARE loosing a lot more money than Ballmer is telling them they're loosing!
We've Googled for any tax software that works in Linux and not found any. The government web site lists tax software that they recognize, and it's all Windows or Mac software.
'Same for the US.
There were threads in Wine discussion lists saying that a QuickTax install verification procedure instituted in 2002 makes it no longer possible to run QuickTax through Wine.
As of 2004, and maybe before, that is correct.....I don't know "as of when." :) QuickBooks, etc., are a "no go" as well. Here again, we need apps. ported to Linux, NOT try to run in emulation.
We're in Canada, and we have a non-default tax situation, meaning that we usually need some of the supplementary forms, not just the basic two-pager. Any ideas? Suggestions? I'd love to dump Win98 forever.
Do an on-line filing where you can use FireFox as your browser. Fred -- "As Internet technology itself vaults into new areas, so too does the Microsoft monopoly and its tried-and-true bag of tricks." -US Senator Orrin Hatch, (R) Utah
On Sun, 2004-11-28 at 11:33, elefino wrote:
Hello all.
We could trash the last Windows machine in our house if we could use tax-preparation software from Linux (my wife has now reached the point where she's happy to use Linux for everything else -- thank you OpenOffice :-).
The sticking point is that she's been using Intuit's QuickTax for years and is very pleased with it. One benefit is that it keeps tax-related info over several years.
We've Googled for any tax software that works in Linux and not found any. The government web site lists tax software that they recognize, and it's all Windows or Mac software.
There were threads in Wine discussion lists saying that a QuickTax install verification procedure instituted in 2002 makes it no longer possible to run QuickTax through Wine.
We're in Canada, and we have a non-default tax situation, meaning that we usually need some of the supplementary forms, not just the basic two-pager. Any ideas? Suggestions? I'd love to dump Win98 forever.
Kevin (in Ottawa)
I checked Intuit Canada's site yesterday Kevin, and they haven't got a Linux (or wine) version available. I did e-mail a request to know when they'll get a native (or wine) version for Linux. I've been asking them every year for a while now, care to join me in that act?
On Sun November 28 2004 12:21 pm, Mike McMullin wrote: [snip]
We're in Canada, and we have a non-default tax situation, meaning that we usually need some of the supplementary forms, not just the basic two-pager. Any ideas? Suggestions? I'd love to dump Win98 forever.
Kevin (in Ottawa)
I checked Intuit Canada's site yesterday Kevin, and they haven't got a Linux (or wine) version available. I did e-mail a request to know when they'll get a native (or wine) version for Linux. I've been asking them every year for a while now, care to join me in that act?
Use KOrganizer and make a notation for every 3 months to call them! Fred -- "As Internet technology itself vaults into new areas, so too does the Microsoft monopoly and its tried-and-true bag of tricks." -US Senator Orrin Hatch, (R) Utah
On Sunday 28 November 2004 16:33, elefino wrote:
Any ideas? Suggestions?
~ just a remark . . . the M$ programs that I have most missed, have plain DOS versions. DOSemu, the DOS emulator, is something that only recently i have discovered ~ it runs everything DOS really well. best rgds __________
On Sunday 28 November 2004 11:33 am, elefino wrote:
Hello all.
We could trash the last Windows machine in our house if we could use tax-preparation software from Linux (my wife has now reached the point where she's happy to use Linux for everything else -- thank you OpenOffice :-).
The sticking point is that she's been using Intuit's QuickTax for years and is very pleased with it. One benefit is that it keeps tax-related info over several years.
We've Googled for any tax software that works in Linux and not found any. The government web site lists tax software that they recognize, and it's all Windows or Mac software.
There were threads in Wine discussion lists saying that a QuickTax install verification procedure instituted in 2002 makes it no longer possible to run QuickTax through Wine.
We're in Canada, and we have a non-default tax situation, meaning that we usually need some of the supplementary forms, not just the basic two-pager. Any ideas? Suggestions? I'd love to dump Win98 forever.
Kevin (in Ottawa) ===========
Kevin, The time you spend wasting a call & email to MS controlled companies could be better spent in creating exactly what you want in a database or spreadsheet program on your own computer! You could easily setup the forms, the data would be saved and maintained yearly and that would end need for the QuickTax you've been using. Don't misunderstand me now, aggravating these companies into submission is not a bad thing, but I suspect you'll give in, before they do, especially if MS is involved directly. :o) Just a suggestion, Lee
At 03:30 PM 11/28/2004 -0500, BandiPat wrote:
On Sunday 28 November 2004 11:33 am, elefino wrote:
Hello all.
We could trash the last Windows machine in our house if we could use tax-preparation software from Linux (my wife has now reached the point where she's happy to use Linux for everything else -- thank you OpenOffice :-). /snip/
Kevin, The time you spend wasting a call & email to MS controlled companies could be better spent in creating exactly what you want in a database or spreadsheet program on your own computer! You could easily setup the forms, the data would be saved and maintained yearly and that would end need for the QuickTax you've been using.
Don't misunderstand me now, aggravating these companies into submission is not a bad thing, but I suspect you'll give in, before they do, especially if MS is involved directly. :o)
Just a suggestion, Lee
/snip/ If Canada is anything like the US, he'd have to write a new program every year. The forms change, the rules change, the rates change. That's why Turbo Tax etc. is so popular--the guys over there do all the work! --doug
On Sunday 28 November 2004 03:51 pm, Doug McGarrett wrote:
At 03:30 PM 11/28/2004 -0500, BandiPat wrote:
On Sunday 28 November 2004 11:33 am, elefino wrote:
Hello all.
We could trash the last Windows machine in our house if we could use tax-preparation software from Linux (my wife has now reached the point where she's happy to use Linux for everything else -- thank you OpenOffice :-).
/snip/
Kevin, The time you spend wasting a call & email to MS controlled companies could be better spent in creating exactly what you want in a database or spreadsheet program on your own computer! You could easily setup the forms, the data would be saved and maintained yearly and that would end need for the QuickTax you've been using.
Don't misunderstand me now, aggravating these companies into submission is not a bad thing, but I suspect you'll give in, before they do, especially if MS is involved directly. :o)
Just a suggestion, Lee
/snip/
If Canada is anything like the US, he'd have to write a new program every year. The forms change, the rules change, the rates change. That's why Turbo Tax etc. is so popular--the guys over there do all the work!
--doug ==========
Yes, things change, but once the basics are down, it's usually only necessary to make a few changes. The whole thing doesn't have to be redone, because the basics still apply. Sure, it's nice to have someone do it for you and all you have to do is enter the data, but even $40 a year seems a waste for only an hour's use of a program filling in numbers. Now if you used it to do many and getting paid for all those you do, that's a different story! ;o) Lee
On Sun, 2004-11-28 at 15:30, BandiPat wrote:
On Sunday 28 November 2004 11:33 am, elefino wrote:
Hello all.
We could trash the last Windows machine in our house if we could use tax-preparation software from Linux (my wife has now reached the point where she's happy to use Linux for everything else -- thank you OpenOffice :-).
The sticking point is that she's been using Intuit's QuickTax for years and is very pleased with it. One benefit is that it keeps tax-related info over several years.
We've Googled for any tax software that works in Linux and not found any. The government web site lists tax software that they recognize, and it's all Windows or Mac software.
There were threads in Wine discussion lists saying that a QuickTax install verification procedure instituted in 2002 makes it no longer possible to run QuickTax through Wine.
We're in Canada, and we have a non-default tax situation, meaning that we usually need some of the supplementary forms, not just the basic two-pager. Any ideas? Suggestions? I'd love to dump Win98 forever.
Kevin (in Ottawa) ===========
Kevin, The time you spend wasting a call & email to MS controlled companies could be better spent in creating exactly what you want in a database or spreadsheet program on your own computer! You could easily setup the forms, the data would be saved and maintained yearly and that would end need for the QuickTax you've been using.
Don't misunderstand me now, aggravating these companies into submission is not a bad thing, but I suspect you'll give in, before they do, especially if MS is involved directly. :o)
Just a suggestion,
In order to e-file, Revenue Canada requires the software to be approved by them. I think they're also snitty about the actuals forms should you choose to mail them in.
On Sunday 28 November 2004 15:30, BandiPat wrote:
Kevin, The time you spend wasting a call & email to MS controlled companies could be better spent in creating exactly what you want in a database or spreadsheet program on your own computer! You could easily setup the forms, the data would be saved and maintained yearly and that would end need for the QuickTax you've been using.
Yah but . . . QuickTax and the other major tax programs do more than just give you a pretty form to populate a database or spreadsheet. The good ones give you a tax accountant in a box. They research the tax laws/regs, including all the changes/updates for the current year, and often find stuff, and make suggestions that you might not have recognized (unless you happen to be a tax lawyer/accountant yourself). If it weren't for those advantages, we might as well just fill out the paper forms and use snail-mail. That'd be the major reason why nobody has done a real tax-return program as an open source project. Coding the interface and spreadsheet functions is no big deal for an experienced programmer or three. The hard part is to create the modules for each separate country (and province or state within each country) to reflect all the tax rules and to take advantage of all possible deductions and loopholes. There are lots of open-source programmers, but hardly any open-source accountants and tax lawyers. :-) I was just hoping that somebody knew of something. Kevin
On Sunday 28 November 2004 09:33 pm, elefino wrote:
On Sunday 28 November 2004 15:30, BandiPat wrote:
Kevin, The time you spend wasting a call & email to MS controlled companies could be better spent in creating exactly what you want in a database or spreadsheet program on your own computer! You could easily setup the forms, the data would be saved and maintained yearly and that would end need for the QuickTax you've been using.
Yah but . . . QuickTax and the other major tax programs do more than just give you a pretty form to populate a database or spreadsheet. The good ones give you a tax accountant in a box. They research the tax laws/regs, including all the changes/updates for the current year, and often find stuff, and make suggestions that you might not have recognized (unless you happen to be a tax lawyer/accountant yourself).
If it weren't for those advantages, we might as well just fill out the paper forms and use snail-mail.
That'd be the major reason why nobody has done a real tax-return program as an open source project. Coding the interface and spreadsheet functions is no big deal for an experienced programmer or three. The hard part is to create the modules for each separate country (and province or state within each country) to reflect all the tax rules and to take advantage of all possible deductions and loopholes.
There are lots of open-source programmers, but hardly any open-source accountants and tax lawyers. :-)
I was just hoping that somebody knew of something.
Kevin =============
Ok, one point to make please! Just reply to the list on these mails, I ended up getting about 3 mails exactly the same from you! We are all members of the list so you only need to send one mail. Don't do a reply-all when you reply. If you are using kmail, just press the "L" key! Your points are valid Kevin, but ultimately only weak excuses. Anyone that chooses to create their own setup in a spreadsheet or database doesn't do it for the forms, but to get their taxes done electronically without all the pencil & paper work. I think the only reason noone has done a program yet is because nobody has taken the time or had the interest to do it. I think you might be surprised at how many tax lawyers & accountants use open source, but I'm guessing their lives stay busy enough without adding programming to it too! ;o) I've seen and used a spreadsheet setup before done in Lotus 1-2-3, but doubt I still have it around. I'll look, but to make a point, it provided everything that the "polished" tax programs provided without the cost. I think I even used that on the Amiga computer at the time. :o) Thanks Lee -- --- KMail v1.7.1 --- SuSE Linux Pro v9.2 --- Registered Linux User #225206 "Don't let the fear of striking out keep you from playing the game!"
The staff required to review, digest and implement the annual and last
minute tax law changes would be a formidable challenge. Not that it couldn't
be done, it would just take a lot of folks to pull it off... Great idea
though.......
Yes, I know this is a top post, just don't shoot......
--
David C. Rankin, J.D., P.E.
Rankin * Bertin, PLLC
510 Ochiltree Street
Nacogdoches, Texas 75961
(936) 715-9333
www.rankin-bertin.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "BandiPat"
On Sunday 28 November 2004 09:33 pm, elefino wrote:
On Sunday 28 November 2004 15:30, BandiPat wrote:
Kevin, The time you spend wasting a call & email to MS controlled companies could be better spent in creating exactly what you want in a database or spreadsheet program on your own computer! You could easily setup the forms, the data would be saved and maintained yearly and that would end need for the QuickTax you've been using.
Yah but . . . QuickTax and the other major tax programs do more than just give you a pretty form to populate a database or spreadsheet. The good ones give you a tax accountant in a box. They research the tax laws/regs, including all the changes/updates for the current year, and often find stuff, and make suggestions that you might not have recognized (unless you happen to be a tax lawyer/accountant yourself).
If it weren't for those advantages, we might as well just fill out the paper forms and use snail-mail.
That'd be the major reason why nobody has done a real tax-return program as an open source project. Coding the interface and spreadsheet functions is no big deal for an experienced programmer or three. The hard part is to create the modules for each separate country (and province or state within each country) to reflect all the tax rules and to take advantage of all possible deductions and loopholes.
There are lots of open-source programmers, but hardly any open-source accountants and tax lawyers. :-)
I was just hoping that somebody knew of something.
Kevin =============
Ok, one point to make please! Just reply to the list on these mails, I ended up getting about 3 mails exactly the same from you! We are all members of the list so you only need to send one mail. Don't do a reply-all when you reply. If you are using kmail, just press the "L" key!
Your points are valid Kevin, but ultimately only weak excuses. Anyone that chooses to create their own setup in a spreadsheet or database doesn't do it for the forms, but to get their taxes done electronically without all the pencil & paper work. I think the only reason noone has done a program yet is because nobody has taken the time or had the interest to do it. I think you might be surprised at how many tax lawyers & accountants use open source, but I'm guessing their lives stay busy enough without adding programming to it too! ;o)
I've seen and used a spreadsheet setup before done in Lotus 1-2-3, but doubt I still have it around. I'll look, but to make a point, it provided everything that the "polished" tax programs provided without the cost. I think I even used that on the Amiga computer at the time. :o)
Thanks Lee
-- --- KMail v1.7.1 --- SuSE Linux Pro v9.2 --- Registered Linux User #225206 "Don't let the fear of striking out keep you from playing the game!"
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Lee, On Sunday 28 November 2004 20:33, BandiPat wrote:
...
Your points are valid Kevin, but ultimately only weak excuses.3
Far from true. Kevin's point is exactly correct. Programming a framework for tax submissions is straightforward. The real issue is essentially one of content. In this case, the content is a codification of the ever-changing tax laws. And given the critical nature of these laws, one wants a professional to supply that content. Furthermore, encoding the content must be done with knowledge of the software framework as well as of the pertinent laws. I'm not sure which commands higher price, but offhand (and as an experienced programmer), I'd say the tax accountant / lawyer costs more. Whether they're worth more, is a separate question, but these days, I think the tax guy commands a higher fee than the technologist. All in all, it's far from trivial to encode tax laws. Ultimately, I would not expect this kind of software / content to be supplied free (be it "free lunch" or "free speech").
Anyone that chooses to create their own setup in a spreadsheet or database doesn't do it for the forms, but to get their taxes done electronically without all the pencil & paper work. I think the only reason noone has done a program yet is because nobody has taken the time or had the interest to do it.
Nope. It requires expert knowledge of the tax laws more than it does knowledge of spreadsheet, database or GUI programming.
I think you might be surprised at how many tax lawyers & accountants use open source, but I'm guessing their lives stay busy enough without adding programming to it too! ;o)
Use it, yes. Supply it, no.
I've seen and used a spreadsheet setup before done in Lotus 1-2-3, but doubt I still have it around. I'll look, but to make a point, it provided everything that the "polished" tax programs provided without the cost. I think I even used that on the Amiga computer at the time. :o)
Thanks Lee
Randall Schulz
On Monday 29 November 2004 12:26 am, Randall R Schulz wrote:
Lee,
On Sunday 28 November 2004 20:33, BandiPat wrote:
...
Your points are valid Kevin, but ultimately only weak excuses.3
Far from true. Kevin's point is exactly correct. Programming a framework for tax submissions is straightforward. The real issue is essentially one of content. In this case, the content is a codification of the ever-changing tax laws. And given the critical nature of these laws, one wants a professional to supply that content. Furthermore, encoding the content must be done with knowledge of the software framework as well as of the pertinent laws. I'm not sure which commands higher price, but offhand (and as an experienced programmer), I'd say the tax accountant / lawyer costs more. Whether they're worth more, is a separate question, but these days, I think the tax guy commands a higher fee than the technologist.
All in all, it's far from trivial to encode tax laws. Ultimately, I would not expect this kind of software / content to be supplied free (be it "free lunch" or "free speech").
Randall, You also make some good points, but again excuses only, as many of the things you point out are not hidden items that only accountants/lawyers are privy too. Anyone wanting or needing the laws, restrictions, or necessary information has access to it by law. You guys seem to want to make something relatively simple into something more complex. That's not to say it can't get complex, but it's certainly not rocket science! Consider that probably 50% of the people doing taxes only need basic tax knowledge, since their taxes don't require corporation type calculations. I think most of you guys are looking at the "big" picture while forgetting why these type programs exist in the first place. Who would you consider to be the prime purchaser of these programs? Certainly not accountants or tax lawyers, but the average joe home user. That's not to say they shouldn't get every deduction they can too, but what they need is easily accessible. As an "experienced" programmer, you more than most should know it doesn't take programming experience to accomplish the things needed to do this type of setup. Also, you seem to be under the misconception that accountants & tax lawyers use these off the shelf programs. They don't, nor would you want them to, if they were doing your taxes. But then average joe user doesn't have the need or money to normally pay the price for a full time accounting company or tax lawyer, do they? --------------------
Anyone that chooses to create their own setup in a spreadsheet or database doesn't do it for the forms, but to get their taxes done electronically without all the pencil & paper work. I think the only reason noone has done a program yet is because nobody has taken the time or had the interest to do it.
Nope. It requires expert knowledge of the tax laws more than it does knowledge of spreadsheet, database or GUI programming.
************** Again, I have to disagree with you because it doesn't. Knowledge yes, but expert knowledge, no. Any person with working knowledge of such programs and the desire to create could do them. Plus, if more extensive knowledge of the tax laws are needed, they have access to those or can take one of the many classes offered by the very people many pay to do their taxes! [...] ------------------------
Randall Schulz ===========
Certainly there is more that can be added to this debate and since it is getting very off topic, I request we move it to the OT list or meet on IRC to discuss it further. thanks, Lee
extensive knowledge of the tax laws are needed, they have access to those or can take one of the many classes offered by the very people many pay to do their taxes! Sounds a little idealistic (like me sometimes). I am certainly no expert in
BandiPat wrote: this area but it seems that taxes are just too complex to make the programming an easy task. Perhaps what might be a great idea is a multi-platform simple tax program that is just an electronic form that requires the user to know what he/she would have to know for paper forms.
Certainly there is more that can be added to this debate and since it is getting very off topic, I request we move it to the OT list or meet on Perhaps but I have been following the Crossover mail list for a while and I think I remember some discussion about one of the tax programs. Maybe it is possible to get one of the tax programs to work with SuSE using Crossover?
Since taxes are collected by the government, what I would really like to see is the government providing the software to help us hand over our money with less pain. I don't remember if it was this list or another one but I remember one person saying that his country's IRS equivalent provides software. Since this is an international list, is there anyone whose coutry provides tax software? Damon Register
On Monday 29 November 2004 08:47 am, BandiPat wrote:
You also make some good points, but again excuses only, as many of the things you point out are not hidden items that only accountants/lawyers are privy too. Anyone wanting or needing the laws, restrictions, or necessary information has access to it by law. You guys seem to want to make something relatively simple into something more complex. That's not to say it can't get complex, but it's certainly not rocket science! Consider that probably 50% of the people doing taxes only need basic tax knowledge, since their taxes don't require corporation type calculations. I think most of you guys are looking at the "big" picture while forgetting why these type programs exist in the first place. Who would you consider to be the prime purchaser of these programs? Certainly not accountants or tax lawyers, but the average joe home user. That's not to say they shouldn't get every deduction they can too, but what they need is easily accessible. As an "experienced" programmer, you more than most should know it doesn't take programming experience to accomplish the things needed to do this type of setup.
If it were so simple to set up a good tax program, our problem would be one of which one to use instead of where to find even one. I used to do my taxes by hand. When I decided to try a commercial program I found I saved a lot of time. Not time doing calculations, that's just simple, basic math. I could do the math with a calculator faster than I could set up a spreadsheet. I saved time reading all the instructions and making sure I understood it all. The commercial software guarantees the laws are followed and will stand behind their software. The time saved even that first year (with fairly simple taxes) was worth more than the software cost.
Also, you seem to be under the misconception that accountants & tax lawyers use these off the shelf programs. They don't, nor would you want them to, if they were doing your taxes. But then average joe user doesn't have the need or money to normally pay the price for a full time accounting company or tax lawyer, do they? --------------------
Well, I don't know what they use to do our corporate taxes, but I do know two of our very computer literate (in spreadsheets and databases like approach and access) CPAs use commercial software to do individual taxes. One uses TaxCut and the other TurboTax. They have 'discussions' about which is best.
Anyone that chooses to create their own setup in a spreadsheet or database doesn't do it for the forms, but to get their taxes done electronically without all the pencil & paper work. I think the only reason noone has done a program yet is because nobody has taken the time or had the interest to do it.
Again the simple math can be done faster with a calculator than the time it takes to set up a spreadsheet (and the spreadsheet would have to be modified each year as laws and situations change). The reason no one has done it is because for simple cases it isn't worth the time, for complex cases, well, its complex... not to mention the potential liability if the programmer gets it wrong.
Nope. It requires expert knowledge of the tax laws more than it does knowledge of spreadsheet, database or GUI programming.
************** Again, I have to disagree with you because it doesn't. Knowledge yes, but expert knowledge, no. Any person with working knowledge of such programs and the desire to create could do them. Plus, if more extensive knowledge of the tax laws are needed, they have access to those or can take one of the many classes offered by the very people many pay to do their taxes!
Supply and demand along with competition still works. A lot of people want and are willing to pay for commercial software. If it were easy to produce, we would be flooded with it. For personal use, time is money. The time I would spend researching and taking classes would cost far more than I spend on software. Now back to really important suff. Which desktop did I have kmines running on? Doug
elefino wrote:
Hello all.
We could trash the last Windows machine in our house if we could use tax-preparation software from Linux (my wife has now reached the point where she's happy to use Linux for everything else -- thank you OpenOffice :-).
The sticking point is that she's been using Intuit's QuickTax for years and is very pleased with it. One benefit is that it keeps tax-related info over several years.
We've Googled for any tax software that works in Linux and not found any. The government web site lists tax software that they recognize, and it's all Windows or Mac software.
There were threads in Wine discussion lists saying that a QuickTax install verification procedure instituted in 2002 makes it no longer possible to run QuickTax through Wine.
We're in Canada, and we have a non-default tax situation, meaning that we usually need some of the supplementary forms, not just the basic two-pager. Any ideas? Suggestions? I'd love to dump Win98 forever.
While not ideal, you might want to try Win4Lin. It will run a copy of Windows 98 under Linux.
On Sunday 28 November 2004 11:33, elefino wrote: Any ideas? Suggestions? I'd love to dump Win98 forever. .......................... I have always done mine online: Most web-based applications will work in Linux. from an 2003 pcworld :http://www.pcworld.com/news/article/0,aid,109260,pg,2,00.asp (I wish I could find something that works as good as Outlook; Kontacts has me still worried) -- ___ _ __ ||_|/ \|\/| _|_|_ _ ._ _ / \_|_ _ ._ _| _._|_ _. _ _ ._ _ || |\_/| | |_| |(_)| | || (|/ |_(/_| |(_|(_| |_(_|o(_(_)| | | \__ -- ___ _ __ ||_|/ \|\/| _|_|_ _ ._ _ / \_|_ _ ._ _| _._|_ _. _ _ ._ _ || |\_/| | |_| |(_)| | || (|/ |_(/_| |(_|(_| |_(_|o(_(_)| | | \__
participants (12)
-
BandiPat -
Damon Register -
David Rankin -
Doug B -
Doug McGarrett -
elefino -
Fred A. Miller -
James Knott -
Mike McMullin -
pinto -
Randall R Schulz -
Thom Nuzum