[opensuse] RE: MS giving away Exchange 2016 -- trying to get foot in door
why on this list..?? doesn't work on Linux, right?? André -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
André Verwijs wrote:
Linda Walsh wrote:
Anyway... if you wanted to play w/it for free, maybe stick it in a VM, thought I'd mention it. Though, FWIW, I think I'm sticking with dovecot for the foreseeable future...
why on this list..?? doesn't work on Linux, right??
AFAIK, linux has no problem running 'VM's... or weren't you aware of that? People have posted about problems with various email formats being readable, not to mention, someone might have either a business need or a healthy curiosity about a wide range of computer science subjects and how to integrate such. I don't know what roadblocks one might encounter (I don't have any particular need nor, especially, at this point, free time to explore it further), but I could see someone wanting Exchange for __something__, and could see someone trying to see if it would run on a linux VM or even with 'Wine'. Might be a long shot, but for 'free', seems like a low cost way to explore options. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 10/25/2015 03:08 AM, Linda Walsh wrote:
André Verwijs wrote:
Linda Walsh wrote:
Anyway... if you wanted to play w/it for free, maybe stick it in a VM, thought I'd mention it. Though, FWIW, I think I'm sticking with dovecot for the foreseeable future...
why on this list..?? doesn't work on Linux, right?? --- AFAIK, linux has no problem running 'VM's... or weren't you aware of that?
People have posted about problems with various email formats being readable, not to mention, someone might have either a business need or a healthy curiosity about a wide range of computer science subjects and how to integrate such. I don't know what roadblocks one might encounter (I don't have any particular need nor, especially, at this point, free time to explore it further), but I could see someone wanting Exchange for __something__, and could see someone trying to see if it would run on a linux VM or even with 'Wine'. Might be a long shot, but for 'free', seems like a low cost way to explore options.
it is a nonconforming messaging system which is fundamentally broken in its design The only reason for being used ever is because of a top down decisions from some CMM designated crap dispensed by a visio jockey. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 10/25/2015 03:08 AM, Linda Walsh wrote:
People have posted about problems with various email formats being readable, not to mention, someone might have either a business need or a healthy curiosity about a wide range of computer science subjects and how to integrate such.
I have to use Outlook, connected to an Exchange server, at work. I want to keep as far away from it as possible. When I compare what I have to endure on Outlook, compared to how well Seamonkey and Thunderbird work on my Dovecot server, I fail to understand why any business would use Exchange/Outlook. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 10/25/2015 07:50 AM, James Knott wrote:
On 10/25/2015 03:08 AM, Linda Walsh wrote:
People have posted about problems with various email formats being readable, not to mention, someone might have either a business need or a healthy curiosity about a wide range of computer science subjects and how to integrate such.
I have to use Outlook, connected to an Exchange server, at work. I want to keep as far away from it as possible. When I compare what I have to endure on Outlook, compared to how well Seamonkey and Thunderbird work on my Dovecot server, I fail to understand why any business would use Exchange/Outlook.
Brainwashing -- Ken Schneider SuSe since Version 5.2, June 1998 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 10/25/2015 08:39 AM, Ken Schneider - openSUSE wrote:
On 10/25/2015 07:50 AM, James Knott wrote:
On 10/25/2015 03:08 AM, Linda Walsh wrote:
People have posted about problems with various email formats being readable, not to mention, someone might have either a business need or a healthy curiosity about a wide range of computer science subjects and how to integrate such.
I have to use Outlook, connected to an Exchange server, at work. I want to keep as far away from it as possible. When I compare what I have to endure on Outlook, compared to how well Seamonkey and Thunderbird work on my Dovecot server, I fail to understand why any business would use Exchange/Outlook.
Brainwashing
Reality Distortion field generated by well financed marketing. "Go! Lemmings, GO!" -- A: Yes. > Q: Are you sure? >> A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation. >>> Q: Why is top posting frowned upon? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 2015-10-25 12:50, James Knott wrote:
On 10/25/2015 03:08 AM, Linda Walsh wrote:
People have posted about problems with various email formats being readable, not to mention, someone might have either a business need or a healthy curiosity about a wide range of computer science subjects and how to integrate such.
I have to use Outlook, connected to an Exchange server, at work. I want to keep as far away from it as possible. When I compare what I have to endure on Outlook, compared to how well Seamonkey and Thunderbird work on my Dovecot server, I fail to understand why any business would use Exchange/Outlook.
Because it is sold by a business and supported by a business, not by a bunch of volunteers, that give their software for free. Surely that's not serious, can't be. Value costs money. (not my opinion; theirs) So many don't even consider any opensource solution. I worked for the company that invented Unix, and they used Exchange server! It was horrible when you had to connect out of the premisses, by phone and modem. Could take half an hour or more to sync, get email, send replies. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar)
On 10/25/2015 08:57 AM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
I fail to understand why any business would use
Exchange/Outlook. Because it is sold by a business and supported by a business, not by a bunch of volunteers, that give their software for free. Surely that's not serious, can't be. Value costs money.
(not my opinion; theirs)
I've heard that a number of times and once when I pressed the case very hard and got past the Reality Distortion/Brainwashing I was told that because it was, a you say,
sold by a business and supported by a business, not by a
bunch of volunteers
there was someone to sue if something went wrong. Against this the idea of individual responsibility of FOSS vs the repeatedly demonstrated finger pointing and deniability of the formal business processes ran into another Reality Distortion Field. Perhaps I'm an Engineer or have too much mathematical training, but in such matters I look to evidence. I've worked on BigIron versions of UNIX at large corporations that have support contracts and found that I knew more about the system then the support group when I did call in a problem. One year, one site, the head of local support for a TLA recognized this and routed me to his trainees, not that they ever helped me, but by forcing them to follow my logic and analytic trees I gave them a better education than the courses he sent them on. Another time, another TLA/FLA I ended up with the development group and in telling them exactly what was wrong they accused me of stealing their source code; they could not understand how else anyone could be so precisely analytic. But "bean counters" often don't understand that the response cycle is what matters to production. problem determination and remediation is what keeps the company running. Having a dead IT department and being able to sue Microsoft or whoever for loss of business makes no sense if the company goes bankrupt in the mean time cos IT isn't functioning. On one occasion I posited this out to the 'bean counter' and was met by stony silence. Aka refusal to accept evidential reality. On another I was allowed to replace the failing systems but was fired once it was completed. The IT manager was apologetic, but he said that the 'bean counters' hated the expense and saw me as the culprit.
So many don't even consider any opensource solution. I worked for the company that invented Unix, and they used Exchange server! It was horrible when you had to connect out of the premisses, by phone and modem. Could take half an hour or more to sync, get email, send replies.
BTDT for the same. Sometimes a MBA gives a viewpoint that is so divorced from operations that its scary. Sometimes, sometimes not. Some of the best companies are ones where they insist that to be a manager you must have front line production experience. And that 'best' includes best products and good stock market performance. -- A: Yes. > Q: Are you sure? >> A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation. >>> Q: Why is top posting frowned upon? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 2015-10-25 14:41, Anton Aylward wrote:
On 10/25/2015 08:57 AM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
there was someone to sue if something went wrong.
Ah, yes, I forgot to say that. I've heard it, too. Good luck for a dozen people company to sue M$, LOL! (and many licenses have terms about not claiming that the software serves any real purpose, or that is what I understand from the cryptic legalese) And as you say, by that time the company will be already dead. But the people that make the decisions have a different mindset. Anyway, the goal is not running the company, but earning money by the investors. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar)
On 10/25/2015 09:41 AM, Anton Aylward wrote:
bunch of volunteers
sold by a business and supported by a business, not by a there was someone to sue if something went wrong.
There are companies that sell Linux support and include a distro. IIRC the commercial SuSE and Red Hat are sold that way. Then there are companies such as IBM and Oracle that provide Linux as part of the package. Surely that's a better way to go than trusting MS. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 10/25/2015 10:40 AM, James Knott wrote:
On 10/25/2015 09:41 AM, Anton Aylward wrote:
bunch of volunteers
sold by a business and supported by a business, not by a there was someone to sue if something went wrong.
There are companies that sell Linux support and include a distro. IIRC the commercial SuSE and Red Hat are sold that way. Then there are companies such as IBM and Oracle that provide Linux as part of the package. Surely that's a better way to go than trusting MS.
That's why I talk of the Reality Distortion Field generated by marketing dollars. -- A: Yes. > Q: Are you sure? >> A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation. >>> Q: Why is top posting frowned upon? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 On 2015-10-25 15:40, James Knott wrote:
On 10/25/2015 09:41 AM, Anton Aylward wrote:
bunch of volunteers
sold by a business and supported by a business, not by a there was someone to sue if something went wrong.
There are companies that sell Linux support and include a distro. IIRC the commercial SuSE and Red Hat are sold that way. Then there are companies such as IBM and Oracle that provide Linux as part of the package. Surely that's a better way to go than trusting MS.
It is for me... but typically, not for these people. :-( - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" (Minas Tirith)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) iF4EAREIAAYFAlYtOGMACgkQja8UbcUWM1zHVgD/eZjwErVCovXbgGlWO//Xuo5v SM02TdP9myUV3u46AAMBAKERSl3DBcJZ/1B52Q1CCYMmSjKqBaOSL32Z28zRWNJL =bc1x -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 10/25/2015 08:57 AM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
Because it is sold by a business and supported by a business, not by a bunch of volunteers, that give their software for free. Surely that's not serious, can't be. Value costs money.
I used to use Lotus Notes at work. It's also far superior to Outlook/Exchange. IIRC, Novell had something too. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 2015-10-25 15:30, James Knott wrote:
On 10/25/2015 08:57 AM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
Because it is sold by a business and supported by a business, not by a bunch of volunteers, that give their software for free. Surely that's not serious, can't be. Value costs money.
I used to use Lotus Notes at work. It's also far superior to Outlook/Exchange. IIRC, Novell had something too.
I forgot to mention that one. Yes, I have seen companies using it. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar)
James Knott wrote:
On 10/25/2015 08:57 AM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
Because it is sold by a business and supported by a business, not by a bunch of volunteers, that give their software for free. Surely that's not serious, can't be. Value costs money.
I used to use Lotus Notes at work. It's also far superior to Outlook/Exchange. IIRC, Novell had something too.
Novell Groupwise. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (9.5°C) http://www.dns24.ch/ - your free DNS host, made in Switzerland. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 10/25/2015 07:50 AM, James Knott wrote:
On 10/25/2015 03:08 AM, Linda Walsh wrote:
People have posted about problems with various email formats being readable, not to mention, someone might have either a business need or a healthy curiosity about a wide range of computer science subjects and how to integrate such.
I have to use Outlook, connected to an Exchange server, at work. I want to keep as far away from it as possible. When I compare what I have to endure on Outlook, compared to how well Seamonkey and Thunderbird work on my Dovecot server, I fail to understand why any business would use Exchange/Outlook.
+1 on principle, +5 n utility and functionality -20 on understanding Its about marketing and money. As various large city fracases over the use of OpenOffice/LibreOffice vs MS-Office have demonstrated, MS-office is such a cash-cow for Microsoft that they are willing to expend a lot of money/effort to make people think irrationally over issues like standardization and cost benefit and scalability and functionality. "You can't get fired for buying IBM" evolved into s/IBM/Microsoft/g -- A: Yes. > Q: Are you sure? >> A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation. >>> Q: Why is top posting frowned upon? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 10/25/2015 03:08 AM, Linda Walsh wrote:
André Verwijs wrote:
Linda Walsh wrote:
Anyway... if you wanted to play w/it for free, maybe stick it in a VM, thought I'd mention it. Though, FWIW, I think I'm sticking with dovecot for the foreseeable future...
why on this list..?? doesn't work on Linux, right??
AFAIK, linux has no problem running 'VM's... or weren't you aware of that?
Oh? I think that VMs have peaked. The VM concept and with it the VDI model are bloated compared to Docker/ https://news.opensuse.org/2014/08/07/official-docker-containers/ The distinction is very simple: running VMs duplicates the OS partion. Now this is useful in a lot of contexts, such as, as Linda points out, running Windows under Linux, or testing out new releases of an OS. But a lot of production is OS-homogenous. The advantages of many VM on a machine that is otherwise underutilized make more sense with Docker than with VM. Years ago I used to see 'raised floor' rooms (that often weren't) which had stacks of PCs running various versions of Microsoft, each doing just one task: DNS, DHCP, email, authentication, faxing, .... and asked "Why don't you use a UNIX/Linux box and roll all those onto one?" Many of the arguments I heard against it made little sense, irrational and emotional. And I knew they were wrong because I was running such a set-up at home or had set up similar for other people. You can argue about the necessity of doing things like chrooting DNS, postfix, and the adequacy of same from various aspects, but the whole point is that these functions can and do run on just one OS. There is no particular need to run each in a VM. The downside of just chrooting is SPoF. Although not an intrinsic feature of a VM by itself, the management tools that, for example, VMWare offers allows VM migration between machines. Yes there are pure Windows shops and they will continue to use the wasteful overhead of VMs and VDI. But Docker/LXC is in the ascendancy. Not all places are interested in a OS 'religious war', they are happy to focus on function and cost benefit. Many functions are independent of OS, especially infrastructure ones. One of Canada's large telcos needed to scale out support for Windows login and central file system, LDAP and AD services and found that the Microsoft Servers could not cost effectively scale up. They used, instead,a pair of back to back HP-500 series machines running LDAP and SAMBA under HP/UX. Nothing odd about this today, but this was done more than 15 years ago! With a cost benefit of that scaling its hard to see how they would benefit from going back to banks of PCs running VMWare. Big Iron is very reliable. If I were setting up an ISP today I'd use a single large IBM machine running thousands of instances of Suse/Linux and eliminating all the 'wiring'. VMs have their place, but I don't see them as the primary growth area of the future. https://access.redhat.com/articles/1353593 http://www.zdnet.com/article/docker-1-8-adds-serious-container-security -- A: Yes. > Q: Are you sure? >> A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation. >>> Q: Why is top posting frowned upon? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Sun, Oct 25, 2015 at 9:14 AM, Anton Aylward
On 10/25/2015 03:08 AM, Linda Walsh wrote:
André Verwijs wrote:
Linda Walsh wrote:
Anyway... if you wanted to play w/it for free, maybe stick it in a VM, thought I'd mention it. Though, FWIW, I think I'm sticking with dovecot for the foreseeable future...
why on this list..?? doesn't work on Linux, right??
AFAIK, linux has no problem running 'VM's... or weren't you aware of that?
Oh? I think that VMs have peaked. The VM concept and with it the VDI model are bloated compared to Docker/
https://news.opensuse.org/2014/08/07/official-docker-containers/
The distinction is very simple: running VMs duplicates the OS partion. Now this is useful in a lot of contexts, such as, as Linda points out, running Windows under Linux, or testing out new releases of an OS.
Docker is a winner and so are some other new technologies with similar shared kernel features. For good or for bad, the only practical way I know to use them is with Linux as the hypervisor (or whatever they call it with Docker, etc.) and the container). So while I love the Docker concept a lot of companies will stick to VMs becuase they can more readily run Windows as the guests. Greg -- Greg Freemyer www.IntelligentAvatar.net -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 10/25/2015 09:32 AM, Greg Freemyer wrote:
So while I love the Docker concept a lot of companies will stick to VMs becuase they can more readily run Windows as the guests.
The real issue, at a rational cost/benefit analysis POV, is whether it is a Windows application or a IS-independent infrastructure independent one. Many things like SQL database services, DNS, DHCP, NTP, file sharing, LDAP, IMAP/POP, calendaring and more are, as many demonstrate (e.g. Google, Amazon and many other 'web services', to say nothing for private - 'ownCloud' - and public - 'AWS' - systems) quite decoupled from any OS. It is the non-standard, proprietary nature of Outlook and the closed (usually unpublished) Microsoft protocols, designed for client lock-in, that are the real issue. If its functionality, cost, standardization responsiveness of support that are the issues around these things then FOSS is the winner. These things should be viewed as commodity items. As Google etc have demonstrated, they can be outsourced *provided* *that* *they* *are* *standards* *based*. There are many other 'commodity' items in life and business where we take this view, The only reason Microsoft has managed a lock in is its marketing's ability to, like the Shadow, having "the power to cloud men's minds". -- A: Yes. > Q: Are you sure? >> A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation. >>> Q: Why is top posting frowned upon? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
participants (9)
-
André Verwijs -
Anton Aylward -
Carlos E. R. -
Greg Freemyer -
James Knott -
Ken Schneider - openSUSE -
Linda Walsh -
Per Jessen -
Ruben Safir