Re: [SLE] Have you seen this? -- TOFU explained

newer
after update KDE 3.2.1, can't log...

GarUlbricht7＠netscape.net

6 Mar 2004 6 Mar '04

21:24

Martin You asked what TOFU is: I will quote an old mail: *At 11:19 06/05/2002 -0700, Christopher Mahmood wrote in a post entitled:"[SLE] Please stop TOFU"

...

* (name withheld to protect the innocent)

...
What does TOFU mean?

"Text oben, full quote unten" (sorry if I misspelled that). It's the Jeopardy-style follow-ups that so many people seem to think are OK.

i.e., instead of you replying to post of mine by carefully trimming the amount of the text you quote and then add your follow-up below it, you add your answer "above" and then quote my entire email below.

It's amazingly rude and ugly, even worse than Cc'ing a poster when replying to the list.

--

-ckm

Reference: http://lists.suse.com/archive/suse-linux-e/2002-Jun/ http://lists.suse.com/archive/suse-linux-e/2002-Jun/0536.html OK, that is (was) Chris's opinion -- and he is no longer on the list, but many who are -- especially one's who know the answers --- don't like TOFU becasue it slows down their reading, and replying to people wh=o need help. (Many of them have very high reading rates) Look at your logs -- the most recent stuff is at the bottom. Remember teletypes --- the last message is at the bottom Look at the archieves...last reply is at the bottom Bottom line -- do it at your own peril. Look at this post... I will leave it as an exercise for the reader about M$ mentality. There is a full moon out -- and we don't need any more flames... Hope this helps, Remember, google is your friend, Gar -- "The IETF motto is 'rough consensus and running code'" -- David D. Clark (as quoted in: Unix, POSIX and Open Systems, John S. Quarterman p. 206) -- __________________________________________________________________ Introducing the New Netscape Internet Service. Only $9.95 a month -- Sign up today at http://isp.netscape.com/register Netscape. Just the Net You Need. New! Netscape Toolbar for Internet Explorer Search from anywhere on the Web and block those annoying pop-ups. Download now at http://channels.netscape.com/ns/search/install.jsp

Show replies by date

jaska

6 Mar 6 Mar

21:38

New subject: [SLE] Have you seen this? -- TOFU explained

Hi So You are saying, that I should just accept the difficult method of reading replies (by scrolling down and searching for the start of the reply) To my logic there is nothing that would speak on behalf of bottom-posting, especially when it means more difficult replies to read. And who has said it is rude? Someone, who is a person like me, and has not the status any higher that I do. What You said about Cc:ing, I totally agree on that one. Replies should go only to this list, period. Logs... they do grow on the bottom, and every time I open a log, I need to scroll down.. why shouldn't they start at the top? Lazy programmers? Teletypes.. what are they.. I should google to some history or museum.. should we follow those lines? Get perhaps 75/1200 baud modems back on line? I do understand that trimming is needed when bottom-posting, but when top-posting, just add the reply on top, perhaps deleting something from the original message, and go-on with whatever I was doing. By doing this I perhaps make a new reply and help another Linux-user in the same time, that it takes to carefully trimming the message. Maybe someone will say that it is a waste of bandwidht. If so, the why do we graphics on web-pages? It is not needed, but it is there.. They should the start to educate people who are designing web-pages to get back to stone-age! Jaska.

...

...
i.e., instead of you replying to post of mine by carefully trimming the amount of the text you quote and then add your follow-up below it, you add your answer "above" and then quote my entire email below.

It's amazingly rude and ugly, even worse than Cc'ing a poster when replying to the list.

--

-ckm

Reference:

http://lists.suse.com/archive/suse-linux-e/2002-Jun/ http://lists.suse.com/archive/suse-linux-e/2002-Jun/0536.html

OK, that is (was) Chris's opinion -- and he is no longer on the list, but many who are -- especially one's who know the answers --- don't like TOFU becasue it slows down their reading, and replying to people wh=o need help. (Many of them have very high reading rates)

Look at your logs -- the most recent stuff is at the bottom.

Remember teletypes --- the last message is at the bottom

Look at the archieves...last reply is at the bottom

Bottom line -- do it at your own peril.

Look at this post...

I will leave it as an exercise for the reader about M$ mentality. There is a full moon out -- and we don't need any more flames...

Hope this helps, Remember, google is your friend,

Gar

-- "The IETF motto is 'rough consensus and running code'" -- David D. Clark (as quoted in: Unix, POSIX and Open Systems, John S. Quarterman p. 206) --

__________________________________________________________________ Introducing the New Netscape Internet Service. Only $9.95 a month -- Sign up today at http://isp.netscape.com/register

Netscape. Just the Net You Need.

New! Netscape Toolbar for Internet Explorer Search from anywhere on the Web and block those annoying pop-ups. Download now at http://channels.netscape.com/ns/search/install.jsp

Dylan

23:43

New subject: [SLE] Have you seen this? -- TOFU explained

On Saturday 06 Mar 2004 21:38 pm, jaska wrote: <SNIP>

...

So You are saying, that I should just accept the difficult method of reading replies (by scrolling down and searching for the start of the reply)

Does your MUA not distinguish the new text from the original post (OP)?

...

To my logic there is nothing that would speak on behalf of bottom-posting, especially when it means more difficult replies to read.

Erm, it means a respondent can reply to individual points *in context*. The difficulty arises when the replier doesn't trim the OP.

...

And who has said it is rude? Someone, who is a person like me, and has not the status any higher that I do.

Actually, the general consensus of usenet and email users from long before the /world wide web/ and commercial internet were even a glint in anyone's monitor... <SNIP>

...

Logs... they do grow on the bottom, and every time I open a log, I need to scroll down.. why shouldn't they start at the top? Lazy programmers?

No, prepending log entries would mean either a structured file format or complicated disk accesses (likely copying the file each time.) Both would introduce more -ve's than +ve's. You can parse the log through sort, or just sort it in your text editor... <SNIP>

...

I do understand that trimming is needed when bottom-posting, but when top-posting, just add the reply on top, perhaps deleting something from the original message, and go-on with whatever I was doing.

And when a thread runs to maybe hundreds of messages, with each one coppied in full? HTML is bad enough, but redundant repitition over tens of posts? And on top of that, each message gets sent to thousands of subscribers, at an average 2k per new post, 20 reply posts is 400k. And at 130+ post per day... needI go on? Some people have dialups paid by the minute or KB...

...

By doing this I perhaps make a new reply and help another Linux-user in the same time, that it takes to carefully trimming the message.

Maybe, but it might be better to trim the OP out entirely - that's just a quick. And there's always the thread to check back on.

...

Maybe someone will say that it is a waste of bandwidht. If so, the why do we graphics on web-pages? It is not needed, but it is there..

I did say that. The difference is: I can choose which web sites I go to and I can configure my browser to not show images unless I want it to. I cannot decide whether I want a mail until it is downloaded. Also, http is faster than pop3.

...

They should the start to educate people who are designing web-pages to get back to stone-age!

Get real. Dylan <BIG SNIP OF OP> -- "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin

Vic Ayres

7 Mar 7 Mar

00:39

New subject: [SLE] Have you seen this? -- TOFU explained

jaska wrote: <snip>

...

I do understand that trimming is needed when bottom-posting, but when top-posting, just add the reply on top, perhaps deleting something from the original message, and go-on with whatever I was doing.

That's a very interesting statement. Have you looked at what you included under your reply? I'm leaving it all in here in the hope that you will actually look. (But I'm not holding my breath.)

...

By doing this I perhaps make a new reply and help another Linux-user in the same time, that it takes to carefully trimming the message.

Maybe someone will say that it is a waste of bandwidht. If so, the why do we graphics on web-pages? It is not needed, but it is there.. They should the start to educate people who are designing web-pages to get back to stone-age!

Jaska.

...
...
i.e., instead of you replying to post of mine by carefully trimming the amount of the text you quote and then add your follow-up below it, you add your answer "above" and then quote my entire email below.

It's amazingly rude and ugly, even worse than Cc'ing a poster when replying to the list.

--

-ckm

Reference:

http://lists.suse.com/archive/suse-linux-e/2002-Jun/ http://lists.suse.com/archive/suse-linux-e/2002-Jun/0536.html

OK, that is (was) Chris's opinion -- and he is no longer on the list, but many who are -- especially one's who know the answers --- don't like TOFU becasue it slows down their reading, and replying to people wh=o need help. (Many of them have very high reading rates)

Look at your logs -- the most recent stuff is at the bottom.

Remember teletypes --- the last message is at the bottom

Look at the archieves...last reply is at the bottom

Bottom line -- do it at your own peril.

Look at this post...

I will leave it as an exercise for the reader about M$ mentality. There is a full moon out -- and we don't need any more flames...

Hope this helps, Remember, google is your friend,

Gar

-- "The IETF motto is 'rough consensus and running code'" -- David D. Clark (as quoted in: Unix, POSIX and Open Systems, John S. Quarterman p. 206) --

__________________________________________________________________ Introducing the New Netscape Internet Service. Only $9.95 a month -- Sign up today at http://isp.netscape.com/register

Netscape. Just the Net You Need.

New! Netscape Toolbar for Internet Explorer Search from anywhere on the Web and block those annoying pop-ups. Download now at http://channels.netscape.com/ns/search/install.jsp

-- Vic Ayres

Carlos E. R.

01:39

New subject: [SLE] Have you seen this? -- TOFU explained

The 2004-03-06 at 23:38 +0200, jaska wrote:

...

So You are saying, that I should just accept the difficult method of reading replies (by scrolling down and searching for the start of the reply)

No. The proper method for "bottom posting" is to leave as little as possible and is necessary of the original text that is being responded, and add right there the answer, deleting all the rest. The technique is named "quoting", interleaving the answers with the questions in sequential order. Responding at the bottom, and leaving all or almost all of the original post above, thus forcing the reader to scroll down, is just as rude as "top posting", where the original text is below, also complete. Both ways are "rude", as they waste resources: namely disk space, network, cpu, brain cells, time. There is no need to repeat the original post complete, either below or above, because it is available as an independent post. -- Cheers, Carlos Robinson

Philipp Thomas

12:38

New subject: [SLE] Have you seen this? -- TOFU explained

jaska [Sat, 6 Mar 2004 23:38:31 +0200]:

...

I do understand that trimming is needed when bottom-posting, but when top-posting, just add the reply on top, perhaps deleting something from the original message, and go-on with whatever I was doing.

When writing letters, do you include photocopies of all the previous letters? When talking to someone, do you recite the complete discussion up to that point? By quoting in full length with your reply at the top you force others to read much more then would be necessary for the discussion. If I want to follow a discussion I simply read the previous mails in the thread or search the archives of a mailing list. In my eyes, top-posting and full-quoting is nothing but laziness because replying in an intelligent way would mean a bit more work. I at least usually skip top-post mails because I won't waste time trying to understand the context. Top-posting, full quotes and a few other annoyances have made suse-linux-e nearly unusable for me and I'm not far away from unsubscribing. This is a sad state, because suse-linux-e was different when I joined SUSE five years ago. And the german suse-linux list does show that things can be different and more pleasant if enough people do agree on certain rules for a mailing list. Philipp

Vince Littler

13:06

New subject: [SLE] Have you seen this? -- TOFU explained

On Sunday 07 March 2004 12:38 pm, Philipp Thomas wrote:

...

And the german suse-linux list does show that things can be different and more pleasant if enough people do agree on certain rules for a mailing list.

Philipp

Very true and very relevant. But it has not been agreed around here, although some act as though it has and bite the head off anyone who offends. To me the rebuke often grates me worse than the offence. If it is not agreed as a rule, then I think a polite request is in order, provided that the requester also addresses the offender's point and makes it clear that it is a personal preference. But the biggest hindrance to me ever giving agreement to this as a rule is that I fear some will take this as a licence to rebuke offenders even more strongly. Perhaps the Germans are just better at imposing rules with a minimum of argument - they are after all more polite than the English speaking nations, it seems to me. And that applies to both obeying the rules and applying them. [Go on, Godwinate the thread someone!] Vince

elefino

18:26

New subject: [SLE] Have you seen this? -- TOFU explained

On Sunday 07 March 2004 07:38, Philipp Thomas wrote:

...

And the german suse-linux list does show that things can be different and more pleasant if enough people do agree on certain rules for a mailing list.

I presume that this statement means that the Germans use bottom-posting exclusively, and everyone German is happy. However, while the German list is (just assuming... I don't speak German) populated by posters from Germany, Austria, Switzerland and... (anywhere else?) the SLE list is populated by a much wider sampling of participants, from all over the world. There must easily be 40 countries represented here. I'm not suggesting that TOFU is acceptable, just pointing out that, as a general rule, general rules work better in homogeneous populations than in heterogeneous populations. Just as a worldly example, and please don't take offense, uniform social policies are more likely to work in a country like Sweden (where you could count the number of black, Arabic, Indian, and Chinese citizens on your fingers and toes... and have some fingers and toes left over), while uniform social policies tend to fail grandly in melting-pot countries like the USA. So it is with communities like mailing lists. Continuing as devil's advocate, I noted that somebody compared contrasting posting styles with ignoring the rules of the road. Um, if you ignore the local rules about which side of the road to drive, the result is inevitably death, dismemberment and severe property damage. I don't think that's quite what happens when posters ignore/misunderstand preferences on a mailing list. One approach that deals with such disagreement (on other lists) is that the list-masters make a decision, publish it, and stick to it. So, every new poster gets a copy of the rules, to which they agree, at sign-up time. Every poster gets a monthly, automated reminder, along with other administrivia, in one compact package (that they can filter if they wish). Personally, I find the TOFU/MUFO wars amusing, but almost irrelevant. As some other posters have noted, the real problem is failure to trim and edit when one posts replies. THERE is the main argument against top posting. If you just hit "reply", then your mail program makes a copy of the full post and puts the cursor at the top. If you just start typing, it it's far too easy to forget to trim all that stuff below your own golden words... that's how my occasional accidents happen, though I try to be careful. (I also try to consistently bottom-post in this list). If there's just one or two paragraphs that "need" replying in a message, maybe the best approach (a la KMail) is to just highlight the important text first, then hit "Reply". In that fashion, only the highlighted text is brought into your response. Other mailers should offer that, if they don't already. When I want to reply to several sections of somebody's mail, I make two replies. One has nothing highlighted, so everything is brought into the new (candidate) message and given the proper indents and "> >" attribution marking. The other reply is created by highlighting just a single character in the original post, so that a blank reply candidate is created (but with the headers and threading info intact). Then, I copy and paste the relevant material from the bloated candidate message to the empty one (with all the proper "> >" attribution) and send only the streamlined one. If I remember to erase the "To:" field in the discardable candidate message, then I make it less likely that I'll accidentally send it to the list. If anybody's still reading, I hope that added to the discussion. Regards, Kevin

Anders Johansson

18:21

New subject: [SLE] Have you seen this? -- TOFU explained

On Sunday 07 March 2004 19.26, elefino wrote:

...

Just as a worldly example, and please don't take offense, uniform social policies are more likely to work in a country like Sweden (where you could count the number of black, Arabic, Indian, and Chinese citizens on your fingers and toes... and have some fingers and toes left over),

Which only goes to prove that you've never actually been here

...

while uniform social policies tend to fail grandly in melting-pot countries like the USA.

I believe it is the size of the nation that decides, not the composition. In any case, could this *please* be taken off this list? There is suse-ot@suse.com for debates like this. Send a mail to suse-ot-subscribe@suse.com to subscribe to it

Jake

8 Mar 8 Mar

21:12

New subject: [Re: was [SLE] Have you seen this? -- TOFU explained] Now; something good comes from a flame war

On Sunday 07 March 2004 18:26, elefino wrote:

...

If there's just one or two paragraphs that "need" replying in a message, maybe the best approach (a la KMail) is to just highlight the important text first, then hit "Reply". In that fashion, only the highlighted text is brought into your response. Other mailers should offer that, if they don't already.

I didn't know this, and it works. Thanks. It means responding to a post is as easy as highlighting the the bit one wants to respond to, and hitting the "l" key (lowercase L). Another good kmail tip I discovered recently was (assuming folder on mailing list) is MMB click on the folder to open a list-post. Jake

Mitch Thompson

03:21

New subject: [SLE] Have you seen this? -- TOFU explained

Good Grief! Would you all just shut up about it? Or start your own mailing list: call it the SLE-TOFU list. Don't let any of us who are just here to learn (and possibly pass on knowledge) know how to subscribe, please! Criminey! -- "The single most prevalent form of child abuse in this country is the act of sending a child to a government school. We worry incessantly about the separation of church and state. We would do well to devote half as much attention to the separation of government and education." --Neal Boortz -- Mitch Thompson, San Antonio, Texas//WB5UZG

James Knott

7 Mar 7 Mar

13:16

New subject: [SLE] Have you seen this? -- TOFU explained

GarUlbricht7@netscape.net wrote:

...

Martin You asked what TOFU is:

I will quote an old mail:

*At 11:19 06/05/2002 -0700, Christopher Mahmood wrote in a post entitled:"[SLE] Please stop TOFU"

...
* (name withheld to protect the innocent)

...
What does TOFU mean?

"Text oben, full quote unten" (sorry if I misspelled that). It's the Jeopardy-style follow-ups that so many people seem to think are OK.

i.e., instead of you replying to post of mine by carefully trimming the amount of the text you quote and then add your follow-up below it, you add your answer "above" and then quote my entire email below.

It's amazingly rude and ugly, even worse than Cc'ing a poster when replying to the list.

--

-ckm

Reference:

http://lists.suse.com/archive/suse-linux-e/2002-Jun/ http://lists.suse.com/archive/suse-linux-e/2002-Jun/0536.html

OK, that is (was) Chris's opinion -- and he is no longer on the list, but many who are -- especially one's who know the answers --- don't like TOFU becasue it slows down their reading, and replying to people wh=o need help. (Many of them have very high reading rates)

Look at your logs -- the most recent stuff is at the bottom.

Remember teletypes --- the last message is at the bottom

A lot of this historical stuff is due to the limitations of the technology of the past. A teletype had a continuous roll or box of paper. For the most recent output to be at the top, you'd have to print upside down. Also, back in those days, you'd generally read a message and tear it off, though some times you wouldn't if you wanted to maintain a log. However one thing that many people tend to forget, is that as technology changes, what worked best at one time may not be what's best later. I for one find top posting to be better than bottom posting. If I'm following a thread and have recently read a message, I don't have to see it again, before reading the reply. As for the comment someone else made about cc'ing to the list, when I send separate replies to the OP and list, it's because this list has a *STUPID* policy of sending to the OP, instead of the list, which means I have to change the destination address before sending. If I forget to do that, I have to resend to the list address. This is a public discussion mailing list, where reply to the list should be the default and reply to the OP the exception. This is the most irritating thing about this list and far worse than top vs bottom posting.

Patrick Shanahan

16:20

New subject: Individual Reply vs List Reply, was: Have you seen this? -- TOFU explained

* James Knott [03-07-04 08:16]:

...

As for the comment someone else made about cc'ing to the list, when I send separate replies to the OP and list, it's because this list has a *STUPID* policy of sending to the OP, instead of the list, which means I have to change the destination address before sending. If I forget to do that, I have to resend to the list address. This is a public discussion mailing list, where reply to the list should be the default and reply to the OP the exception. This is the most irritating thing about this list and far worse than top vs bottom posting.

Your high regard for the "STUPID" list policies, perhaps because of your inability to properly configure your email client or your choice of email client, is distressing. You have expressed your opinion, but remember that it is just that and everyone has one of those too. When/if you visit other regions of the world, do you also degrade them and disregard their customs and laws? Amazing the small bit of effort necessary to contribute to a society and to meet the expectations of it's etiquette. Several of the volunteer SuSE participants have expressed their observations and expectations but you (plural) continue to directly and indirectly spit in their faces. Remember that they are representatives of the List Provider. It's amazing that this entire diatribe is the result of a direct admonishment of an individual's attack on one of SuSE's and the list's most prominent supporters, James Ogley. It is *shameful*. -- Patrick Shanahan Registered Linux User #207535 http://wahoo.no-ip.org @ http://counter.li.org HOG # us1244711

Bruce Marshall

17:42

New subject: [SLE] Individual Reply vs List Reply, was: Have you seen this? -- TOFU explained

On Sunday 07 March 2004 11:20 am, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

...

It's amazing that this entire diatribe is the result of a direct admonishment of an individual's attack on one of SuSE's and the list's most prominent supporters, James Ogley. It is *shameful*. -- Patrick Shanahan Registered Linux User #207535 http://wahoo.no-ip.org @ http://counter.li.org HOG # us1244711

Once again, a sharp rebuke without *any* information to help someone solve their problem. Ya know, I have no problem following the bottom-posting custom, but when someone has to step up (like you) and make it THE ONLY WAY that anyone can post to this list, I get severely irritated. And you've even sent me private email telling me to "trim your quotes". I find that rather heavy-handed. We're all here for linux.... not to be treated like children. So <PLONK> Welcome to my kill-fill..... (all of the above is properly trimmed and bottom-posted I hope) BTW, the answer to the reply-to the list needed is a procmail recipe such as: :0f * ^X-Mailinglist: suse-linux-e | formail -bfi "Reply-To: SLE " -- +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ + Bruce S. Marshall bmarsh@bmarsh.com Bellaire, MI 03/07/04 12:37 + +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ "The older I grow, the more I distrust the familiar doctrine that age brings wisdom." - H. L. Mencken

Butrus orman

17:46

New subject: [SLE] Individual Reply vs List Reply, was: Have you seen this? -- TOFU explained

On Sun, 2004-03-07 at 12:42, Bruce Marshall wrote:

...

On Sunday 07 March 2004 11:20 am, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

...
It's amazing that this entire diatribe is the result of a direct admonishment of an individual's attack on one of SuSE's and the list's most prominent supporters, James Ogley. It is *shameful*. --

the problem is to many little kids on this list that claim to know a lot but don't know how to procmailrc someone who they dont like.....

john bright

9 Mar 9 Mar

13:49

New subject: [SLE] Individual Reply vs List Reply, was: Have you seen this? -- TOFU explained

On Sun, 2004-03-07 at 10:46, Butrus orman wrote:

...

On Sun, 2004-03-07 at 12:42, Bruce Marshall wrote:

...
On Sunday 07 March 2004 11:20 am, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

...
It's amazing that this entire diatribe is the result of a direct admonishment of an individual's attack on one of SuSE's and the list's most prominent supporters, James Ogley. It is *shameful*. --

the problem is to many little kids on this list that claim to know a lot but don't know how to procmailrc someone who they dont like.....

You maybe? -- john bright

Philipp Thomas

7 Mar 7 Mar

19:53

New subject: [SLE] Individual Reply vs List Reply, was: Have you seen this? -- TOFU explained

Bruce Marshall [Sun, 7 Mar 2004 12:42:47 -0500]:

...

BTW, the answer to the reply-to the list needed is a procmail recipe such as:

:0f * ^X-Mailinglist: suse-linux-e | formail -bfi "Reply-To: SLE "

As long as you don't set that for mails going *to* the list, it's a usable solution. Though I'd rather see those people either use 'reply to list', which nearly *all* Linux MUAs offer or edit by hand like I do when posting from Windows, i.e. use natural intelligence instead of artificial :) Philipp

Carlos E. R.

8 Mar 8 Mar

12:55

New subject: [SLE] Individual Reply vs List Reply, was: Have you seen this? -- TOFU explained

The 2004-03-07 at 20:53 +0100, Philipp Thomas wrote:

...

...
:0f * ^X-Mailinglist: suse-linux-e | formail -bfi "Reply-To: SLE "

As long as you don't set that for mails going *to* the list, it's a usable solution.

Outgoing mail? But surely, procmail recipes only affects incoming mail.

...

Though I'd rather see those people either use 'reply to list', which nearly *all* Linux MUAs

Pine is one such *nix MUA that doesn't, unfortunately; thus that procmail recipe has made my life on the list a lot easier, since somebody posted it soon after I subscribed... Mozilla is another, I think. -- Cheers, Carlos Robinson

James Knott

02:06

New subject: [SLE] Individual Reply vs List Reply, was: Have you seen this? -- TOFU explained

Patrick Shanahan wrote:

...

Your high regard for the "STUPID" list policies, perhaps because of your inability to properly configure your email client or your choice of email client, is distressing.

Given that of all the discussion forums I've participated in over the years, why is it that this is the only one that considers it the "proper" method? Why should someone have to change an e-mail client that otherwise works well for them, simply because one mail list decides to be different from every other forum?

...

You have expressed your opinion, but remember that it is just that and everyone has one of those too.

When/if you visit other regions of the world, do you also degrade them and disregard their customs and laws?

Amazing the small bit of effort necessary to contribute to a society and to meet the expectations of it's etiquette. Several of the volunteer SuSE participants have expressed their observations and expectations but you (plural) continue to directly and indirectly spit in their faces. Remember that they are representatives of the List Provider.

It's amazing that this entire diatribe is the result of a direct admonishment of an individual's attack on one of SuSE's and the list's most prominent supporters, James Ogley. It is *shameful*.

It was never my intention to attack anyone. However, I do have a problem when some claims that their's is the only way and everyone else is wrong, such as that woman I mentioned in another note. In another note, someone used the example of a country club. In many groups I've belonged to, the rules may be re-evaluted occasionally, if a change seems warranted.

Patrick Shanahan

02:15

New subject: [SLE] Individual Reply vs List Reply, was: Have you seen this? -- TOFU explained

* James Knott [03-07-04 21:06]:

...

It was never my intention to attack anyone.

You were not the individual indicated. If you are interested, look to the biginning of the thread, X-Message-Number-for-archive: 182521 -- Patrick Shanahan Registered Linux User #207535 http://wahoo.no-ip.org @ http://counter.li.org HOG # us1244711

Carl William Spitzer IV

18:31

New subject: [SLE] Individual Reply vs List Reply, was: Have you seen this? -- TOFU explained

We were all newbies at some point. Perhaps it would be best if we formed a memory division for newbies errors. When they make them the group could send them the URL for configuring their mailers and neticut lessons so they dont have to learn the hard way. CWSIV On Sun, 2004-03-07 at 08:20, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

...

* James Knott [03-07-04 08:16]:

...
As for the comment someone else made about cc'ing to the list, when I

Your high regard for the "STUPID" list policies, perhaps because of your inability to properly configure your email client or your choice of email client, is distressing.

Rob Sell

9 Mar 9 Mar

14:47

New subject: [SLE] Individual Reply vs List Reply, was: Have you seen this? -- TOFU explained

If you look I was not attacking James, I was merely standing up for the guy who posted albeit an off topic but very relevant post, that James jumped all over for OT posting. We all have bad days, maybe James had a bad day when he read that OT post. I have no problems with James and I appreciate what he does for SuSE, I think James was able to see my post not as an attack, but you Patrick were man enough to stand up and defend James' honor and start ranting about top posting and telling me to crawl in a hole. I left it at that, until I saw one of you later messages. If you had not jumped in this topic would have died in a day, but your flaming has kept it going for going on 5 days now. Some parting words for Patrick and everyone else to remember, "Arguing on the internet is like participating in the Special Olympics, even if you win you are still retarded. --- Top posted and proud of it. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Some Linux God Wrote:

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It's amazing that this entire diatribe is the result of a direct admonishment of an individual's attack on one of SuSE's and the list's most prominent supporters, James Ogley. It is *shameful*. -- Patrick Shanahan Registered Linux User #207535 http://wahoo.no-ip.org @ http://counter.li.org HOG # us1244711

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Anders Johansson
Bruce Marshall
Butrus orman
Carl William Spitzer IV
Carlos E. R.
Dylan
elefino
GarUlbricht7＠netscape.net
Jake
James Knott
jaska
john bright
Mitch Thompson
Patrick Shanahan
Philipp Thomas
Rob Sell
Vic Ayres
Vince Littler