[SLE] 10.1 installed. Not too bad...
Hi Folks, I know that things have been rather contentious around here lately. For my part, I'd like to thank the SuSE folks who listen here for taking our guff. It's remarkable that SuSE has been offering these mailing lists for years now, and that real SuSE people are listening and providing info. I can't think of any other manufacturer-provided venue where employees are allowed to mingle with the public. Thanks SuSE, and Novell! I just managed to install 10.1 on a PIII with 512-MB of ram. Except for some long pauses now and again, things went ok. Yast Update didn't find anything to update until I performed the first reboot and did the Update Configuration and Update Settings things. The Online Updater even works, if you wait long enough. I was also able to add Packman to the Installation Source thing. However, I can't find dvgrab or GNU FORTRAN anywhere. Do I need the boxed distro for those? This install was just a proof-of-concept for me. I now feel confident enough to purchase a few of the boxes when they're available here and try to install on more challenging platforms, including dual Opterons. That being said, it certainly "seems" like a PHB (Pointy-Haired Boss) has been mucking around here lately. But I'm willing to stick it out, I'm sure that the kinks will be straightened. Thanks! Lew Wolfgang -- Check the headers for your unsubscription address For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the archives at http://lists.suse.com Please read the FAQs: suse-linux-e-faq@suse.com
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 The Thursday 2006-06-01 at 18:06 -0700, Lew Wolfgang wrote:
However, I can't find dvgrab or GNU FORTRAN anywhere. Do I need the boxed distro for those?
A look at the ftp tree finds it at .../inst-source/i586/gcc-fortran-4.1.0-25.i586.rpm - -- Cheers, Carlos Robinson -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.0 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Made with pgp4pine 1.76 iD8DBQFEf5FEtTMYHG2NR9URAv+rAJ9j0p6WaWuP5DIbxBG0yleK7lWa1QCfeCZA gvCdIRLJWSx/+yuHSFtSveM= =QN2J -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- Check the headers for your unsubscription address For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the archives at http://lists.suse.com Please read the FAQs: suse-linux-e-faq@suse.com
On Thursday 01 June 2006 20:06, Lew Wolfgang wrote:
For my part, I'd like to thank the SuSE folks who listen here for taking our guff. It's remarkable that SuSE has been offering these mailing lists for years now, and that real SuSE people are listening and providing info. I agree... but I have to say that Novell/SuSE is learning a valuable lesson here. Never let pointy head managers push your product out the door before its ready... bad plan... bad manager, bad. UBuntu is doing great... and that without a GUI installer! YaST is a SuSE distinctive which (in my opinion) SuSE cannt afford to screw up. It is always way better to get it right (full regression testing) than push it out too fast... users have some reasonably high expectations... and please... don't even think of telling them that the high expectation for open and free is *too high* just because its open and free... its *reasonably high* because open and free should also be *well done* just *because*., and especially because its Novell.
-- Kind regards, Mark H. Harris <>< harrismh777@earthlink.net -- Check the headers for your unsubscription address For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the archives at http://lists.suse.com Please read the FAQs: suse-linux-e-faq@suse.com
On Thu, 2006-06-01 at 21:29 -0500, Mark H. Harris wrote:
I agree... but I have to say that Novell/SuSE is learning a valuable lesson here. Never let pointy head managers push your product out the door before its ready... bad plan... bad manager, bad.
I disagree. At some point, you've gotta just push something out-the-door. SuSE made some changes in a few key details in 10.1 -- not expected in a revision of the same major version -- and they've been hit by the integration issues. It happens. It's unavoidable. Red Hat dropped the whole revisioning approach as of Red Hat Linux 9, and hasn't bothered with Fedora Core. As much as I've screamed about this (as it confusing things), the reality is that even Red Hat has to change things in a revision and can't always wait on major versions. SuSE is in the same boat, even though they are sticking with the revision approach. The reality is that SuSE Linux 10.0 and 10.1 are the same major version in ABI and other details, but there were a few things that did change for various reasons.
UBuntu is doing great... and that without a GUI installer!
Please don't "distro piss" on another list. Don't complain about a distro, then turn around and promote another. SuSE Linux 10.1 is getting excellent reviews on many merits.
YaST is a SuSE distinctive which (in my opinion) SuSE cannt afford to screw up.
Actually, SuSE Linux 10.1 is getting kudos on integration of SmartPM. At least as a replacement for YOU.
It is always way better to get it right (full regression testing) than push it out too fast... users have some reasonably high expectations... and please... don't even think of telling them that the high expectation for open and free is *too high* just because its open and free... its *reasonably high* because open and free should also be *well done* just *because*., and especially because its Novell.
At some point, you need to change things, and that causes integration issues. Novell can integration and regression test all they want -- but they are _still_ limited to what systems they have under test. And that's only a _fraction_ of what end-users have. Both Novell and Red Hat have an "enterprise" release based on every 2-4 revisions of the faster moving projects, namely SuSE and Fedora. Both Novell and Red Hat integration and regression test both SuSE Linux and Fedora Core, respectively, extensively -- but newer things break once they are exposed to a much greater diversity in release. It's easy for _other_ distros to sit back on versions and let Novell and Red Hat integrate newer projects, features and capabilities. Furthermore, Novell and Red Hat don't always have the same focus and interest as other distros. So while you might enjoy Ubuntu, don't let it lead you to criticize and critique Novell-SuSE. -- Bryan J. Smith Professional, technical annoyance mailto:b.j.smith@ieee.org http://thebs413.blogspot.com ------------------------------------------------------- Illegal Immigration = "Representation Without Taxation" -- Check the headers for your unsubscription address For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the archives at http://lists.suse.com Please read the FAQs: suse-linux-e-faq@suse.com
Bryan, On Thursday 01 June 2006 19:40, Bryan J. Smith wrote:
On Thu, 2006-06-01 at 21:29 -0500, Mark H. Harris wrote:
I agree... but I have to say that Novell/SuSE is learning a valuable lesson here. Never let pointy head managers push your product out the door before its ready... bad plan... bad manager, bad.
I disagree. At some point, you've gotta just push something out-the-door. SuSE made some changes in a few key details in 10.1 -- not expected in a revision of the same major version -- and they've been hit by the integration issues. It happens. It's unavoidable.
That is loser talk, plain and simple. If you believe it, it's a self-fulfilling prophecy. If you do software development right, you might not get the schedules some higher-up would like, but you can meet the schedules you commit to with reasonable or even excellent quality. Being this ready to capitulate and--to commit the cardinal sin--push something out the door because of a calendar date even if it's not ready is what makes consumers of computing technology rightfully develop such a bad opinion of the software industry. I've been doing software development as my sole occupation for over 25 years and I've seen it done all sorts of ways, but when the calendar, driven by arbitrary managerial fiat, is what calls the shots, quality suffers. When the managers listen to the engineers, the commitment that are made are met and the quality is sufficient to satisfy all concerned. Randall Schulz -- Check the headers for your unsubscription address For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the archives at http://lists.suse.com Please read the FAQs: suse-linux-e-faq@suse.com
On Thu, 2006-06-01 at 19:59 -0700, Randall R Schulz wrote:
That is loser talk, plain and simple. If you believe it, it's a self-fulfilling prophecy. If you do software development right, you might not get the schedules some higher-up would like, but you can meet the schedules you commit to with reasonable or even excellent quality. Being this ready to capitulate and--to commit the cardinal sin--push something out the door because of a calendar date even if it's not ready is what makes consumers of computing technology rightfully develop such a bad opinion of the software industry. I've been doing software development as my sole occupation for over 25 years and I've seen it done all sorts of ways, but when the calendar, driven by arbitrary managerial fiat, is what calls the shots, quality suffers. When the managers listen to the engineers, the commitment that are made are met and the quality is sufficient to satisfy all concerned.
I really don't think SuSE Linux / OpenSuSE development is being driven by managers and arbitrary dates. Heck, people say the same about Fedora Core -- when it's nothing of the sort. If anything, I sure OpenSuSE is driving a lot of "manager hands-off" on development of SuSE Linux -- much like the move to Fedora Core did for Red Hat. SuSE Linux is not the Linux money maker for Novell-SuSE, but SuSE Linux Enterprise Server is. -- Bryan J. Smith Professional, technical annoyance mailto:b.j.smith@ieee.org http://thebs413.blogspot.com ------------------------------------------------------- Illegal Immigration = "Representation Without Taxation" -- Check the headers for your unsubscription address For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the archives at http://lists.suse.com Please read the FAQs: suse-linux-e-faq@suse.com
Bryan, On Thursday 01 June 2006 20:19, Bryan J. Smith wrote:
On Thu, 2006-06-01 at 19:59 -0700, Randall R Schulz wrote:
That is loser talk, plain and simple. If you believe it, it's a self-fulfilling prophecy. If you do software development right, you might not get the schedules some higher-up would like, but you can meet the schedules you commit to with reasonable or even excellent quality. Being this ready to capitulate and--to commit the cardinal sin--push something out the door because of a calendar date even if it's not ready is what makes consumers of computing technology rightfully develop such a bad opinion of the software industry. I've been doing software development as my sole occupation for over 25 years and I've seen it done all sorts of ways, but when the calendar, driven by arbitrary managerial fiat, is what calls the shots, quality suffers. When the managers listen to the engineers, the commitment that are made are met and the quality is sufficient to satisfy all concerned.
I really don't think SuSE Linux / OpenSuSE development is being driven by managers and arbitrary dates. Heck, people say the same about Fedora Core -- when it's nothing of the sort. If anything, I sure OpenSuSE is driving a lot of "manager hands-off" on development of SuSE Linux -- much like the move to Fedora Core did for Red Hat.
I was responding to your statements about software development in general, not to anything pertaining to SuSE / Novell.
-- Bryan J. Smith
Randall Schulz -- Check the headers for your unsubscription address For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the archives at http://lists.suse.com Please read the FAQs: suse-linux-e-faq@suse.com
On Thu, 2006-06-01 at 22:40 -0700, Randall R Schulz wrote:
I was responding to your statements about software development in general, not to anything pertaining to SuSE / Novell.
General software development of a single project/codebase is not the same as integration and regression testing a mass collection of multiple software developments as a whole. Especially when you're talking about integrating 3rd party software and running on other systems than under test. Especially when you're pushing the envelope on features and versions. It's easier to stick with established GCC, GLibC, legacy kernel interfaces, older library support, etc... than to adopt newer versions and deal with all the changes. That's what a lot of smaller distros do. Red Hat and Novell purposely adopt newer APIs and support in their leading edge distros, so they are well tested by the time their enterprise version comes out. -- Bryan J. Smith Professional, technical annoyance mailto:b.j.smith@ieee.org http://thebs413.blogspot.com ------------------------------------------------------- Illegal Immigration = "Representation Without Taxation" -- Check the headers for your unsubscription address For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the archives at http://lists.suse.com Please read the FAQs: suse-linux-e-faq@suse.com
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 The Thursday 2006-06-01 at 22:40 -0700, Randall R Schulz wrote:
I really don't think SuSE Linux / OpenSuSE development is being driven by managers and arbitrary dates. Heck, people say the same about Fedora Core -- when it's nothing of the sort. If anything, I sure OpenSuSE is driving a lot of "manager hands-off" on development of SuSE Linux -- much like the move to Fedora Core did for Red Hat.
I was responding to your statements about software development in general, not to anything pertaining to SuSE / Novell.
We (users) were testing the RC3. At the moment when RC4 should have come out, it didn't. It was tested internally only, then they went to RC5 and made that GM (final) in a day. I call that hasty. - -- Cheers, Carlos Robinson -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.0 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Made with pgp4pine 1.76 iD8DBQFEgCrKtTMYHG2NR9URAl+tAJ9np9cvXSAbzcmUpnv90cevN1JShQCfeHKg f86hT5Xso2yV1dZ0gKEKr4c= =GPp6 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- Check the headers for your unsubscription address For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the archives at http://lists.suse.com Please read the FAQs: suse-linux-e-faq@suse.com
On Fri, 2006-06-02 at 14:10 +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:
We (users) were testing the RC3. At the moment when RC4 should have come out, it didn't. It was tested internally only, then they went to RC5 and made that GM (final) in a day. I call that hasty.
Well, you have a better perspective than I then. And I yield to that experience and insight I don't have. As such, given your insight, do you think it was a "product" decision by Novell? I.e., SuSE Linux? If so, then do you think that OpenSuSE will solve this long-term? -- Bryan J. Smith Professional, technical annoyance mailto:b.j.smith@ieee.org http://thebs413.blogspot.com ------------------------------------------------------- Illegal Immigration = "Representation Without Taxation" -- Check the headers for your unsubscription address For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the archives at http://lists.suse.com Please read the FAQs: suse-linux-e-faq@suse.com
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 The Friday 2006-06-02 at 08:22 -0400, Bryan J. Smith wrote:
On Fri, 2006-06-02 at 14:10 +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:
We (users) were testing the RC3. At the moment when RC4 should have come out, it didn't. It was tested internally only, then they went to RC5 and made that GM (final) in a day. I call that hasty.
Well, you have a better perspective than I then. And I yield to that experience and insight I don't have.
Don't be so... whatever. My above statement is backed by info published by a SuSE/Novell employee on a public mail list (opensuse-announce). You may check it yourself.
As such, given your insight, do you think it was a "product" decision by Novell? I.e., SuSE Linux? If so, then do you think that OpenSuSE will solve this long-term?
Your guess is as good as mine. - -- Cheers, Carlos Robinson -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.0 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Made with pgp4pine 1.76 iD8DBQFEgFahtTMYHG2NR9URAgvcAKCXoM/xLwbXZCSOOquKH2m7RkMQAQCdEQ1P WBB251RaSNZVwegaswURB28= =yw9p -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- Check the headers for your unsubscription address For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the archives at http://lists.suse.com Please read the FAQs: suse-linux-e-faq@suse.com
On Friday 02 June 2006 02:06, Lew Wolfgang wrote:
However, I can't find dvgrab or GNU FORTRAN anywhere. Do I need the boxed distro for those?
DVgrab *should* probably be here: ftp://ftp.gwdg.de/pub/linux/suse/apt/SuSE/10.1-i386/RPMS.base but that seems to be spinning its wheels at the moment. Do you have any experience using kino/dvgrab? I'm doing a project, and it would be useful to check a couple of things with someone who knows what they're talking about! -- Pob hwyl / Best wishes Kevin Donnelly www.kyfieithu.co.uk - KDE yn Gymraeg www.eurfa.org.uk - Geiriadur rhydd i'r Gymraeg www.rhedadur.org.uk - Rhedeg berfau Cymraeg www.cymrux.org.uk - Linux Cymraeg ar un CD -- Check the headers for your unsubscription address For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the archives at http://lists.suse.com Please read the FAQs: suse-linux-e-faq@suse.com
participants (6)
-
Bryan J. Smith -
Carlos E. R. -
Kevin Donnelly -
Lew Wolfgang -
Mark H. Harris -
Randall R Schulz