John Andersen composed on 2015-08-09 22:13 (UTC-0700):

"David C. Rankin" wrote:

...

Any thoughts from the brain-trust are appreciated..

If it is an on board controller, as opposed to a board in a slot, look for bad caps. Bulging capacitors. They could be anywhere on the mobo but I'd start looking close to the chipset of the controller.

Don't just look at the motherboard. Check the PS caps too. OST caps often fail without any telltale signs. What year was it made? -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 08/10/2015 09:02 AM, Anton Aylward wrote:

My thoughts, David, run to economics. The cost of DR planning, the cost of preparedness vs other costs.

I'm sure someone is going to say that "economics" and "DR planning" is OT on a technical forum like this. But if it comes down to "how can I get my system running", you do need to consider if its easier/cheaper/faster to just replace the mobo.

Anton, I also worked in a "jerk and jam" facility, the so-called first line maintenance. We got the systems up and running and then sent the boards,assemblies/whatever to a repair facility. Each group then maximized their effort for the corp. At a vendor-run equip maint school there were a couple of guys from the FAA who had to know the trouble resolution down to component level, which let me know that the fed gov't wasn't running very efficient but hey, big surprise, eh? What really bothered us was the "bad off the shelf" new parts that had their own set of failure indications which could, and often did, run us around for hours trying to resolve the problems. David, I second the motion to swap and toss. "You might be an engineer if you've ever tried to fix a $7.00 radio". Or a toaster, or ... My son-in-law (bless his heart) once bought a $29 printer and was griping when he found that replacement ink was $40. I said, "Throw away the printer and buy another" but he said it was still good, to which I replied that how could it be, it doesn't print any more. He never could get it and bought the ink. Doofus. Fred -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 08/10/2015 09:02 AM, Anton Aylward wrote:

You need to establish basic motherboard integrity, Cpu integrity. There are many self-test, memory test and so on you can use. My dell has short-form and long form test BIOS settings. Check you BIOS for options. It may give you details.

You guys are great! Always good to smile at all the imaginable/unimaginable situations... CPU integrity seems fine. With drives pulled, it POSTS fine and gets to the point of "Insert Operating System Disk and press Any Key". Pop the install CD in, hit the "Any Key" and bam, I'm running linux just fine, this really seems limited to disk detection/disk controller - for whatever reason. This motherboard is also equipped with 16 status LEDs, 4-11 (in 4 groups of 2) give the POST status and then go all green when booting the OS. With no drives attached, they flow through the light sequences ending all green. Popping in the CD and booting works like a champ. When the POST fails, they are stuck green, green, red, red, which according to the manual indicates "Initializing Hard Drive Controller" (makes sense). I have inserted spare drives into the empty bays to confirm that the PSU is providing power (it is). The PSU is a fairly reliable HEC Zephyr 750, so it looks to be powering the drives fine. However, the only thing common to all drives, aside from the controller, is power. If it is a power issue, then it has to be a dirty power or partial power that allows the disk to spin, but may be preventing it from properly powering all its circuitry to respond to the drive initialization. Pretty bizarre. The board looks in tact, I've been over all CAPS and there are none puffy/bulging/etc that I can see (I've seen plenty of bad caps before). The fact that the board runs completely through the POST and operates fine when booted from the CD really adds to the puzzle. Partial PSU failure in one of the power pins to the board? Partial PSU failure in the power leg that is powering the SATA connections? Like I said in my original post, nothing eventful happened, it was just like somebody turned a switch to the disk controller off (or at least that is how it appears) causing the buss error/core dump. It's happily running now booted from the CD. I think I'll give everything a sniff test. There is no pronounced "I'm burned alive" smell, but it does smell like a box that has been operating 24-7 for 7 years or so. If you have any other thoughts, let me know. -- David C. Rankin, J.D.,P.E. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 08/10/2015 11:44 AM, jdd wrote:

also may be you could add a sata card and connect the disks on it?

If I can't find anything else bad, then I'll buy a sata card and disable the onboard controlers. Even if I end up buying a new board, processor and RAM, I'll probably still try a new controller. Would be a complete waste to dump this board and processor over a bad disc controller. The build speed on this box was phenomenal. Older p4 3.33GHz boxes would take 7-8 hours for a full KDE3 build, this box with the Phenom 9650 Black Edition would do it in less than 3. If a $25 disk controller will fix it, then that's money well spent. Thanks. Any favorite controller brands? I'll need one with primary and secondary channels plus 2 ESATA. (that seems pretty standard these days) -- David C. Rankin, J.D.,P.E. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 08/10/2015 01:36 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:

I think you should try with another PSU.

I have a sneaking suspicion you may be right here. -- David C. Rankin, J.D.,P.E. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

I see no reason to worry about a 7 year old power supply. As long it was not affected by the bad caps era, these things can last forever, with maybe a fan replacement. Swapping drivers seemed to suggest it wasn't a drive problem as I read the thread. -- Sent from my Android phone with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On August 10, 2015 2:41:43 PM PDT, "Carlos E. R." wrote:

On 2015-08-10 21:35, John Andersen wrote:

...

I see no reason to worry about a 7 year old power supply. As long it was not affected by the bad caps era, these things can last forever, with maybe a fan replacement.

Plastics and several insulators degrade.

But the disk swaps David did.....??? -- Sent from my Android phone with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 08/10/2015 05:23 PM, David C. Rankin wrote:

On 08/10/2015 04:59 PM, John Andersen wrote:

...

But the disk swaps David did.....???

That's where I'm still up in the air. Testing the primary onboard controller.

2 disks connected - no POST disk 1 only - no POST disk 2 only - no POST

both disks spin up and are running.

no disks - POSTS fine, boots from CD and runs fine.

So to me, it looks like the only culprits common to all disks is either:

a) power to one of the 24-pins in the ATX connector b) disk controller (or cap on board related to it) c) power to the disks themselves.

Since the all spin up when plugged into the SATA power connector and sound normal, (c) looks like a long shot. (a) or (b) look the most probable.

I think I have a new PS in the spare parts bin. Failing that, it looks like a new system is in order along with the stand-alone SATA controller to fix the old one as time permits.

For the curious, I've copied the page from the manual concerning the LED POST sequence. With any disk attached, the sequence stops at box 13 (Initializing Hard Drive Controller). With no disks connected, it flows though the boot sequence without a hitch ending all green. http://nirvana.3111skyline.com/dl/img/ss/opensuse/msi_k9n2_SLI_LED_seq.jpg will report back with PS swap results. Found a new in box BFG 550W PS. (what a good company - Lifetime Warranties, no questions asked. It the honest companies that go bust...) -- David C. Rankin, J.D.,P.E. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 08/10/2015 07:43 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:

On 2015-08-11 01:06, David C. Rankin wrote:

...

...

For the curious, I've copied the page from the manual concerning the LED POST sequence. With any disk attached, the sequence stops at box 13 (Initializing Hard Drive Controller). With no disks connected, it flows though the boot sequence without a hitch ending all green. Well, with no disks, it can not really initialize the hard disk controller. It can not do all tests.

And the winner is...... bad disk controller or bad capacitor related to it. Replaced the power-supply with a new 550W supply. Reconnected everything, fired it up and ... exact same behavior. With drives attached to the controller, POST hangs at "Detecting Hard Drives" (although I did get it to post with 1 drive connected, it never saw the drive, and booted straight to the CD) So motherboard, processor, and RAM shopping. First round with EUFI (damn, not looking forward to that). ASUS still makes a board with 1394, other than that, options are Gigabyte, or MSI. Any other favorites? Thanks for all the suggestions. (sure was hoping it was the PSU :) -- David C. Rankin, J.D.,P.E. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 08/10/2015 09:40 PM, Felix Miata wrote:

Maybe tiny likelihood that all SATA cables (how many?) failed together, but trying other ought to be easier than mobo shopping. You never know if you don't try. ;-)

One other thing before shopping: look at the bottom of the mobo. Could be a tiny vermin nest or a long lost unnoticed screw created a short.

Not knowing actual age of this mobo, and guessing 8+, I'm voting RoHS the or an underlying cause if the mobo has no OST caps.

All great words of wisdom. As far as cables, there were 6 sata drives spinning in the box (and had been for years). Six cables going toes up? I'll go with the small possibility that both from the primary controller went bad, but if swapping in the other 4 doesn't change anything, then I will be more than satisfied it isn't a cable. If I really think about what the probable trigger was, we are undergoing August in Texas, and we have had our hottest days they past 3 days. Sunday was 105 w/heat indexes close to 115. During the weekend the A/C raises to 85 degrees, and the server closet with its vent probably gets to 90. That little bit of added heat load/stress probably caused whatever weak component died -- to die. I suspect a capacitor, but the particular capacitors on this board have the fully-formed aluminum sheaths over them with no seam at all on the top. they have 1 intention ring about 1/4 up from the bottom and are capped on the bottom. They all look perfectly in shape, all though 1 between the south bridge and the top pci-16 slot is leading slightly toward the CPU socket (it could have been soldered like that originally). I'll have to pull the board from the case to get access to the back side. This is a big Antec case. One of the best I ever bought. 6 full bays up top, with 2 being a 2 hard-drive quick connect chassis with its own 120mm fan, The in has another 4 drive chassis at the bottom front with it own 120mm fan. It then has 2 more 120mm fans in the back and top. (all 3 speed adjustable and thermostatic controlled) Hell, this thing has its own 12v light on a flexible boom stored under the top to aid in installs/repairs. I'll pull the board and survey the back side. The case was completely together at the time, so it is hard to see what could possibly have come loose. I'm meticulous with plastic wire-ties to secure/route any excess lengths of wires to prevent movement and promote better air-flow in the case. Gremlins? So James was wrong this time, no "Warp Core Breach", but it looks like the problem occurred with the Dilithium Crystal at the point of Warp Core injection -- alignment was good, so that points to the injection controller or matter/anti-matter containment field. We'll know more once I get the crystal, Oh - I mean board pulled :p -- David C. Rankin, J.D.,P.E. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 08/11/2015 01:52 AM, Felix Miata wrote:

Had it been shutdown more than a few minutes while the heat was elevated, with no fans running, allowing ordinarily cooler components to see extra heat soak or humidity? Slim possibility of all 6, of course. Nevertheless, never say never, and never say always. If all 6 are from an identical batch, could elevated heat have tipped them all over an edge together? Maybe not as close to zero probability as one would expect. (I'm still thinking RoHS aka lead-free solder joints, but there are parts on a mobo that are known to occasionally fail besides solder and electrolytics. Horse probably dead too.)

No, this box runs 24-7/365 (only UPS exhaustion prompts shutdown (or kernel update) -- neither happened Sunday) I don't know what the actual failure was -- either solder or bad cap, but I'm going to give the guys at badcaps.net a crack at it. I have it up and running and networked presently and it has been running over 24 hours w/o issue, so the failure seems limited to controller. I'll report back on the issue after I get the board back. It will either work, or I've tossed $70 into finding out it won't :) See my next post i5-4590 Haswell or FX-8350 Black Edition? -- David C. Rankin, J.D.,P.E. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 08/11/2015 07:47 AM, Anton Aylward wrote:

What? No thermal shut-down?

I had an otherwise nice Compaq laptop that had insufficient fan/cooling. On my lap while sitting on the patio one summer if felt it overheating ... on my lap. Indoors, on a angle with an auxiliary cooling pad it managed OK, but in warm weather without the cooling pad it managed to fry a couple of battery packs. I had set the thermal shut-down to 90 degrees. Perhaps it should have been less, but then, perhaps, I'd never get any work done. Even so, after one shut-down the screen had a !FAIL!, so something got stressed beyond tollerance.

Obviously not MIL-SPEC rated components.

Grinning... I did have thermal shutdown enabled, but that was just to protect the processor. I don't recall if there was an ambient shutdown sensor on the board itself. I was a little bit torked because I usually leave the door cracked a bit when it is really hot, but one of the office tenants closed it after I left Friday. Been in the same building since 2003, so I suspect that it was a combination of poor solder/bad caps/bad controller and time. Of course..., the Abit-KT7 w/Athlon Tbird sitting next to it just keeps humming along happily as it has since what 2001? -- David C. Rankin, J.D.,P.E. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Le 11/08/2015 01:06, David C. Rankin a écrit :

(Initializing Hard Drive Controller). With no disks connected, it flows though the boot sequence without a hitch ending all green.

don't you have some other disk to test with new (of different) hardware? I mean disk never seen by this system? jdd -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 On 2015-08-10 23:59, John Andersen wrote:

On August 10, 2015 2:41:43 PM PDT, "Carlos E. R." wrote:

...

On 2015-08-10 21:35, John Andersen wrote:

...

I see no reason to worry about a 7 year old power supply. As long it was not affected by the bad caps era, these things can last forever, with maybe a fan replacement.

Plastics and several insulators degrade.

But the disk swaps David did.....???

Well, I don't mean in this particular case, the cause is yet unknown. I mean in general, in electronics. I have some valve radios still working (made around 1950, perhaps earlier), or rather, they worked last time I tried, ten years ago. I reviewed them when I was a student, replacing several of the capacitors and some browned resistors. Apparently electronics last for ever, but it is not so. Metal lasts, if it doesn't rust, but plastic insulators crack. Paper also degrades (there were paper capacitors, and paper layers in transformers). And paper is one of the most durable materials. It can be eaten, too! :-) - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" (Minas Tirith)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) iF4EAREIAAYFAlXJRvkACgkQja8UbcUWM1zNkgEAjrDQV2wxYhsalkohd+sltlBs k5kVXLL3TIxH0e89NngA/jFQN7oWVn+s69xHk3ZX/BhNgUhZ7y5ZTnLeiIXRJHlZ =CTky -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 On 2015-08-11 03:08, James Knott wrote:

On 08/10/2015 08:51 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

I reviewed them when I was a student, replacing several of the capacitors and some browned resistors. Apparently electronics last for ever, but it is not so.

One problem vacuum tube equipment had was heat, which caused a lot of components to fail prematurely.

Yes. For that reason they were typically built in a box with a metal grid, horizontal, some centimetres from the bottom. The lamps were above, and the passive electronics and wiring, below, where it was cooler. And the components were built for the heat: those things could easily survive half a century. Do you know that valve electronics work better than solid state under radiation? Like in space. Or in a nuclear plant.

We had a tube TV when I was a kid and the top of it was *HOT*! Properly rated devices don't normally fail on their own. It generally takes something else, such as a power surge to degrade them.

Oh, they do now. Things are not built to last. Programmed obsolescence. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" (Minas Tirith)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) iF4EAREIAAYFAlXJU2UACgkQja8UbcUWM1yBfwD/XtbV6P/eLti+CiMvn81sb75x +9RSb3L17RSk7999a1IA/jc09ydhnws9IR0SBuUnyHZ21U6zlEOqXUGN8B7wFcXg =jMUx -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 08/10/2015 05:41 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:

Plastics and several insulators degrade.

The long term !FAIL! was solder joints. that was one reason for a) component density, ultimately to 'chips' b) flow-soldered PCBs, to get better 1) solder mix and 2) consistency "Yes it used to be but we changed all that". Once that was addressed, what was next on the list? A couple of years ago I came across and speculative paper from the ... was it Bell System Journal or some IBM paper ... anyway .. It talked of the future computers being 'hot fuzzy golf-balls. Golf-ball sized 'cos of the level of integration Fuzzy 'cos of the wires to do the IO Hot 'cos of the power density. Nobody, it seems, thought that even though UNIX came out of Bell, it would be powering the "not a hot fuzzy golf-ball" that are cell phones. Which are mostly plastic. Many of our older beliefs about material engineering get overthrown. I've had mobos fail but never from blown capacitors. I've had PSUs fail, but it turned out to be fuses in an inaccessible place. I've had memory fail, but !not! through handling without a static guard. Sometimes I wish David Cheriton's V system had been developed so we could have RAICs Redundant Arrays of CPUS with the Os really distributed across the network, rather than the stamp-and-repeat method we have now. We don't tolerate that kind of thing in programming any more, why should we tolerate it in hardware? Ah, dream on! -- A: Yes. > Q: Are you sure? >> A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation. >>> Q: Why is top posting frowned upon? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org