Hi, On Friday, November 22, 2002 at 07:34:21, Dmitry Melekhov wrote:

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On Thursday, November 21, 2002 at 21:41:06, Dmitry Melekhov wrote:

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What is license for SLES8? Per server (as for SCO UL-based server) or something else?

The only thing that is "licensed" is the maintenance. Its limited to one machine. Everything else is licensed individualy (based on the package). GPL / LPGL / BSD / YaST / blah blubb. The distribution work is under the same YaST / SuSE License as every product.

Do you understand what you writing? ;-)

Sure i do :)

Maintenance mean new version of packadges, each has it's own license....

Nope not only. Maintanance means also product information, knowledge base, installation support, installation kits and it is the base for further support.

Why I can't install them to several servers?

No one can avoid that. But you get a contract that is for this one machine (or more if you want). If you break the contract, maintenance is lost. Thats how maintenance works everywhere. Ask enterprise-presales@suse.com for more details, a license, a example contract whatever. Henne -- Hendrik Vogelsang aka Henne mailto: hvogel<at>hennevogel.de I want you to hit me as hard as you can. # random sigs made with fortune

Hi, On Friday, November 22, 2002 at 15:14:29, Dmitry Melekhov wrote:

Henne Vogelsang wrote:

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On Friday, November 22, 2002 at 07:34:21, Dmitry Melekhov wrote:

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On Thursday, November 21, 2002 at 21:41:06, Dmitry Melekhov wrote:

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What is license for SLES8? Per server (as for SCO UL-based server) or something else?

The only thing that is "licensed" is the maintenance. Its limited to one machine. Everything else is licensed individualy (based on the package). GPL / LPGL / BSD / YaST / blah blubb. The distribution work is under the same YaST / SuSE License as every product.

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Maintenance mean new version of packadges, each has it's own license....

Nope not only. Maintanance means also product information, knowledge base, installation support, installation kits and it is the base for further support.

You are talking about installation support?

Not the "normal" installation Support you get for products. In SLES8 you get installation support for the whole maintenance time.

Then, what is available from PSDB (i.e. what one pay for):

<quote> Search: search for a patch by keyword, e.g. 'httpd' o History: view the documentation sorted by date and download the patches related to your SuSE Linux product. o Versions/Products: display and download all the patches available for your your SuSE Linux product. o Categories: view/download the patches and fixes by category, e.g. 'security' </quote>

This is only updates for packages, which as you wrote I can install on several servers. And this is maintenance, nothing more included! Well, Suse send e-mail about new updates :-)

There is a difference: You buy a CD Set which has packages included. Depending on the license of the package you can do what the license permits you to do with it. For most packages this is GPL and GPL permits (forces? ;) you to install the package on as many machines as you want. You buy also a service with this CD Set called maintenance. This service is limited to the modalities of your individual contract with SuSE. Normally a one year contract including the maintenance for one machine. Dont mix up these two things. That you are allowed to install the packages of the CD Set on more than one machine does not force SuSE to _deliver_ the service of maintenance to more than one machine. As i said, no one will detain you of downloading the update packages from the maintenance web to a local machine and update your other 200 machines from there, but if a update breaks one of these machines you do not have a maintenance contract for or you want to have anything else for one of these machines (like installation support, support, product addons or something like this) you are on your own.

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Ask enterprise-presales@suse.com for more details, a license, a example contract whatever.

:-) We bought SLES7 with one year maintenance, Now it is expired, so we want to buy or SLES8 or next year for SLES7. It is impossible to buy next year in Russia, I asked this presales several times with no success - they simply don't rely at all. But I want to be shure that I can legally install and use SLES8 on several servers. Sorry, I even still do not know license for SLES7 ;-))

I cannot give you a official SuSE statement. I only can try to explain how i think these "contracts/licenses" work. Henne -- Hendrik Vogelsang aka Henne mailto: hvogel<at>hennevogel.de I am Jack's insane mind. # random sigs made with fortune

Dmitry Melekhov wrote:

I think the same, but... I don't want to violate license even if Suse will not know about this ;-)

Forwarded your "they don't reply" internally. Just go ahead and just "do it", I'd say if you end up violating anything it's our fault if we didn't respond, right?

Could someone from Suse tell me is is possible to install updates to serveral servers if I have only one SLES8 box with maintenance? Certanly, I'm at my own, etc, etc....

Technically: yes Legally: Don't know, but I know that it's definitely legal for us to revoke your maintenance web access if we find out that you do that (we may have to refund part of the money you paid) ;-( - no one can force us to provide this service if you don't agree to our terms. Michael

Dmitry Melekhov wrote:

This is what I want to know. Definitely, this is stupid situation- Suse's employeers don't know such thing :-(

See my other - longer - mail a few minutes later. We DO know, but the question for our "license" catches most SuSE people off guard simply because there is none (impossible, we cannot override the licenses each individual package comes with - at most the SuSE CD image is protected by copyright law as a work of art (US law, no idea how that works in Russia) but no one tried that yet IMHO - and it's not necessary, see my other mail).

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revoke your maintenance web access if we find out that you do that (we may have to refund part of the money you paid) ;-( - no one can force us to provide this service if you don't agree to our terms.

:-) Currently I have no access to maintenance web, so you can't revoke something ;-p

I'll try to follow up. Complain to me directly if I don't come up with a solution soon, okay?

I want to know this terms before we'll buy SLES8. May be it will be cheaper (yes! if SLES8 is licensed per server!) and easier (they have russian office) SCO UL based server.

So we'll still make money ;-) Seriously, if SCO has an office in Russia I have a hard time arguing to use SuSE instead. After all, even if you get SCO/UL you still get a SuSE engineered product and can remain on the SuSE mailinglists (e.g. suse-oracle) ;-), and if they've offices there they'll be better able to support you. That's why we did UL, to broaden our geographic reach (Turbo: Asia; Connectiva: South America; SCO: Russia? ;-) ) without actually having to invest to build a presence everywhere... Michael

Hi, On Friday, November 22, 2002 at 19:48:21, Thorsten Kukuk wrote:

On Fri, Nov 22, Dmitry Melekhov wrote:

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Legally: Don't know, but I know that it's definitely legal for us to ^^^^^^^ This is what I want to know. Definitely, this is stupid situation- Suse's employeers don't know such thing :-(

This is not a stupid situation. You only ask the wrong people. You cannot expect from technical stuff to give you legal advice. You will not ask a motor mechanic to submit a case to a court for you, will you? This mailing list is the wrong medium for such questions.

But we can try to help at least. Pushing someone to the right forum and help him if "they" do not respond (which i simply have overread). We love our customers :) Henne -- Hendrik Vogelsang aka Henne mailto: hvogel<at>hennevogel.de We are a generation raised by women. I'm wondering if another woman is the answer. # random sigs made with fortune

Dmitry Melekhov wrote:

And even in SLES7 box (!) there is no license, no terms of maintenance web using!

I gave you the answer!!!

----- Original Message ----- From: "Thorsten Kukuk" To: Sent: Thursday, November 21, 2002 9:53 PM Subject: Re: [SLE] SLES8

On Thu, Nov 21, Dmitry Melekhov wrote:

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Hello!

What is license for SLES8? Per server (as for SCO UL-based server) or something else?

Depends if you speak about the medium (you can install as many servers as you like with one medium) or the updates/maintenace/ support part. The last one is per server (I don't know if there are special contracts for larger sites, but I think so).

Sorry, I don't understand completely. Updates(maintenance) is not the same thing as support. For support one need support contract :-) But for updates- not. I can simply download them from maintenance site. This is only software, some GPL covered, some with anothe license. Anyway, if I can install SLES8 on all my servers ;-) why I can't install updates from maintanance web if I have login?

Konstantin (Kastus) Shchuka wrote:

On Fri, Nov 22, 2002 at 07:14:05AM +0400, Dmitry Melekhov wrote:

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Anyway, if I can install SLES8 on all my servers ;-) why I can't install updates from maintanance web if I have login?

Thou shalt not steal

:-) Sorry, I asked this question to understand what is license to SLES8. And I can't understand this logic- one can install SLES8 to as much servers as he need, but he can't use updates (i.e. packages with the same license as at CDs). Strange, isn't it? Where can I read SLES8 license?

On Fri, Nov 22, Dmitry Melekhov wrote:

----- Original Message ----- From: "Thorsten Kukuk" To: Sent: Thursday, November 21, 2002 9:53 PM Subject: Re: [SLE] SLES8

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On Thu, Nov 21, Dmitry Melekhov wrote:

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Hello!

What is license for SLES8? Per server (as for SCO UL-based server) or something else?

Depends if you speak about the medium (you can install as many servers as you like with one medium) or the updates/maintenace/ support part. The last one is per server (I don't know if there are special contracts for larger sites, but I think so).

Sorry, I don't understand completely. Updates(maintenance) is not the same thing as support. For support one need support contract :-)

And to get the updates and fixes you need a maintenance contract.

But for updates- not. I can simply download them from maintenance site. This is only software, some GPL covered, some with anothe license. Anyway, if I can install SLES8 on all my servers ;-) why I can't install updates from maintanance web if I have login?

You can install them, but if an update breaks your system, you are alone and nobody will help you fixing it, even if you find a real bug. -- Thorsten Kukuk http://www.suse.de/~kukuk/ kukuk@suse.de SuSE Linux AG Deutschherrnstr. 15-19 D-90429 Nuernberg -------------------------------------------------------------------- Key fingerprint = A368 676B 5E1B 3E46 CFCE 2D97 F8FD 4E23 56C6 FB4B

On Fri, Nov 22, Dmitry Melekhov wrote:

Thorsten Kukuk wrote:

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On Fri, Nov 22, Dmitry Melekhov wrote:

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----- Original Message ----- From: "Thorsten Kukuk" To: Sent: Thursday, November 21, 2002 9:53 PM Subject: Re: [SLE] SLES8

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On Thu, Nov 21, Dmitry Melekhov wrote:

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Hello!

What is license for SLES8? Per server (as for SCO UL-based server) or something else?

Depends if you speak about the medium (you can install as many servers as you like with one medium) or the updates/maintenace/ support part. The last one is per server (I don't know if there are special contracts for larger sites, but I think so).

Sorry, I don't understand completely. Updates(maintenance) is not the same thing as support. For support one need support contract :-)

And to get the updates and fixes you need a maintenance contract.

No! At least with SLES7- 1 year maintanance is included with box.

Yes, you can only by SLES7 with a 1 year maintenance contract.

Or I need to get support contract for SLES8? But why there is price for SLES8 with one year maintenace included with box?

Because we don't sell it without.

Could you, as Suse employeer, mail me SLES8 license text?

Please ask your official supplier. -- Thorsten Kukuk http://www.suse.de/~kukuk/ kukuk@suse.de SuSE Linux AG Deutschherrnstr. 15-19 D-90429 Nuernberg -------------------------------------------------------------------- Key fingerprint = A368 676B 5E1B 3E46 CFCE 2D97 F8FD 4E23 56C6 FB4B

Dmitry Melekhov wrote:

There is no official supplier in Russia :-) Please, don't tell me about AltLinux, they don't sell Suse business products, but they are official reseller. Funny, isn't it? :-)

Could you or someone else tell me where can I read SLES8 license? IMHO, this should be very easy to find product license. For instance, SCO write in FAQ that their UL based distribution is lincensed per server. But Suse is exception :-)

It's simple! (PLEASE read to the end before replying) DISCLAIMER: Neither am I a lawyer nor do I speak in any official capacity for SuSE, so anything I write below may be complete BS and unusable in a court of law ;-) 1) license for the box As far as the box you buy is concerned, there is no ONE license for it. Maybe copyright law applies, but otherwise, every single package comes with its own license. Most of them are one of the 20+ open source licenses (x-license, perl license, mozilla license, GPL, etc.). SuSE's admin tool yast2 has a slightly different version of an open source license: you can do anything, but if you resell it and make money in the process you have to get our permission first. Internally you can do with it as you please, though. 2) "maintenance" vs. "support" Maintenance is when we supply you with update packages for problems you didn't even know you have ;-) Maintenance is a 1:m interaction, that means we, SuSE, just put the updates on the Maintenance Web once and all you customers go and get them yourselves. Support is when you call us and a 1:1 interaction is required. Obviously, this requires significantly more resources on our part since someone has to talk to you, meaning we have to have more people, this business does not scale (we have to hire more peole). That's why "maintenance" is much cheaper than "support". 3) "license" for maintenance There are two very different things: The "maintenance" as a process itself, i.e. the login we gave to you for access to our sacred maintenance web, and second, the actual update packages you download. The latter are under their respective licenses, see above, i.e. GPL, Perl license, mozilla license, yast license, etc. So once you get them we cannot prevent you from doing with them whatever you want. BUT: If we find out you install them on more machines than you paid a maintenance fee for, no one can prevent us from simply cutting off your maintenance web acces. We do not have to provide this service if you do not pay. SUMMARY: You have to pay a per-machine maintenance fee or we can cut you off from maintenance. In addition, as Torsten already said, should you have any support issues with any update, you can call us only for the one machine you paid for - but I think this is the much weaker argument to pay us than the other one (that you can loose all maintenance web access). Yes, one CAN make money even with GPL'ed packages without violating that license! Simply through the promise of access to/availability of more such packages (our updates) in the future. You pay for a promise and our service of MAKING those updates. We do not have any control over the ones you already got, since they have their own un-overridable licenses. META-SUMMARY: You do NOT pay anything for any licenses, you only pay for a SERVICE: access to maintenance web (and more, coming, packages). That's why no one can give you a "license text" for SLES-8. If you account for a purchase of SuSE Linux Enterprise Server put it all under "service costs", and zero under "licenses". Michael

Dmitry Melekhov wrote:

----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Hasenstein" To: "Dmitry Melekhov" Cc: "Thorsten Kukuk" ; Sent: Friday, November 22, 2002 10:32 PM Subject: Re: [SLE] SLES8

[skip]

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You do NOT pay anything for any licenses, you only pay for a SERVICE: access to maintenance web (and more, coming, packages). That's why no one can give you a "license text" for SLES-8. If you account for a purchase of SuSE Linux Enterprise Server put it all under "service costs", and zero under "licenses".

Thank you! You answered to my question. Yes, I can ask more ;-) , but your answer is enough for now.

Sorry, I found that I don't satisfied with your answer. I'm writing too fast ;-))) See my previous mail.

----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Hasenstein" To: "Dmitry Melekhov" Cc: Sent: Saturday, November 23, 2002 9:07 PM Subject: Re: [SLE] SLES8

Dmitry Melekhov wrote:

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Sorry, I found that I don't satisfied with your answer. I'm writing too fast ;-)))

See my previous mail.

deleted... what exactly is still open? The conditions are clear: xyz Euro/Dollar per year per machine, if you have a high number of machines you can negotiate a discount of course. Should you install anything we give you (the SLES box istelf or any patches) on more than one machine there's nothing we can or would want to do about it - we cannot override the individual packages license. But we can cut you off from future patches/product purchases. Like every software company does.

Could you point me to document I signed when registered my SLES7? Where can I read that you can cut me from updates and even product purchases if I break this (I don't know which) agreement? Previously you wrote that I can't install binary updates to several servers, no you write that I can but you can revoke login and even can to not sell me anyng in future. So funny ! ;-) Yesterday I found this on suse.com. I don't know when this appeared .... Oops! This disapperared again :-) Yesterday there was info about maintanance http://www.suse.com/us/business/services/index.html with licensing description. Where is it now? :-) btw, now I'm trying to find RH position about there subscription service for RH AS. When I'll know more I inform you. Anyway, they at least provide updates sources for free :-)

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And even in SLES7 box (!) there is no license, no terms of maintenance web using!

I gave you the answer!!!

When? :-)

On Sunday 24 November 2002 03:00, Dmitry Melekhov wrote:

SLES8 license? :-) http://www.tecchannel.de/betriebssysteme/1073/images/0011589_PIC.gif

Well, that doesn't sound unreasonable at all. Consider the alternative. What is the per seat license for Sun or M$ - that ain't cheap. And the joy of perchasing a M$ server farm is not only expensive but the EULA is very specific about access to code, and changes made to the system that will void you contract ( if you haven't read an M$ EULA or looked at the contracts your in for a real treat). Not to mention that fact that in order to obtain a license you "must" sign into the Software Assurance Program -- meaning you locked into buying upgrades when M$ releases them - whether you really need to or not. You get 1 year services and license at a much lower cost than Sun, M$ or others would do, Oracle also has some very fun license agreements - Just ask the State of California. They were sold more licenses than they wanted or needed and when they pointed this out Oracle said too bad a deals a deal I do understand how some feel about per seat licenses. However considering the alternatives and the fact that if SuSE and United Linux are going to survive they need to have a reliable revenue stream. I would wager that you might get more individualized support from SuSE then from, say M$. All they'll do is send out an MCSE tech and that's when they feel like getting around to it. And being open source you may install it on as many machines as you like you just don't get support for it. In the SLE8 brochure the point out that the have engineers they can send to you to help you get things setup, either by augementing an existing system/program/protocal or help you implement your own in house programs/codes/etc... However, if you have installed SLE8 on more machines then you bought licenses for do you really thing that they'll send you a engineer to help you -- if they did that they would go broke inside of a few months. I don't see anywhere that your forbidden from install it on other non-licensed machines. I just see where in order to utilize any support package/contract you have it has to be on a registered and licensed machine -- as it should be. Just my humble observations. Cheers, Curtsi -- Billboard Writer vs. Literature = Micorsoft vs. Computing,

I understand your points and to be honest I also understand that Russia is not always afforded access to those things that one might get in the U.S. or Western Europe. Also, after roaming around the SuSE site and looking at other information I could gather it seems clear to me that their isn't much clear information about this at all. An ad hoc solution might be to have a license for one machine and to use that machine to gain access to the packages for the others. In otherwords, download the package and copy it to the other machines. Iron out the problems on the one licensed machine and then replicate this on the other. I do bear in mind that if you machines are not the same or have different configs this may not be a reliable work around. It's just a thought. Business in Russia is tough and I really don't know if SuSE will send a service rep/technician out to you location - I suspect your correct in assuming they may very well not extend any service to you area. It makes no sense (as you point out) at all to buy a service contract where access to key personal and on-site service isn't going to happen and likewise the cost for this might be to high to make it feasible. I don't really know exactly what is entailed in the license agreement since the information isn't clear and as for service in Russia only the SuSE reps would be able to answer that question. Cheers and good luck, Curtis On Sunday 24 November 2002 06:54, Dmitry Melekhov wrote:

----- Original Message ----- From: "Curtis Rey" To: "Dmitry Melekhov" ; "suse-linux-e" Sent: Sunday, November 24, 2002 2:27 PM Subject: Re: [SLE] SLES8

On Sunday 24 November 2002 03:00, Dmitry Melekhov wrote:

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SLES8 license? :-) http://www.tecchannel.de/betriebssysteme/1073/images/0011589_PIC.gif

Well, that doesn't sound unreasonable at all. Consider the alternative. What is the per seat license for Sun or M$ - that ain't cheap. And the joy of [skip]

OK. Let's compare w2k and sles. I heared that there were som chamges in MS licensing, so I'm talking about what was some time ago, sorry.

http://www.microsoft.com/sql/howtobuy/production.asp Microsoft Windows® 2000 Server $1,199 US per server And I don't need to pay to MS for service packs and patches. w2k will be supported with service packs and patches for more than a year

:-)

As I understand, I don't need to buy CAL to server for MS SQL or Oracle...

http://www.suse.com/us/business/products/sles/sles_x86/prices.html SuSE Linux Enterprise Server 8 for x86 Order no: 2103-3INT US $749.00 incl. 1 year maintenance program for 1 server And for installing updates I need to buy maintenance (almost the same price per server as SLES8 box) for each server/year.

Even in 2 years SLES8 will costs more then w2k per server :-) Well, you can say that we have to compare SELS8 with w2k as. Windows 2000 Advanced Server (With 25 Client Access Licenses) $3,999 US per server

Sorry, I don't need AS features :-)

You get 1 year services and license at a much lower cost than Sun, M$ or others would do [skip] I can't agree

[skip]

However considering the alternatives and the fact that if SuSE and United Linux are going to survive they need to have a reliable revenue stream. I would wager that you

This is, definitely, not my problem ;-)

might get more individualized support from SuSE then from, say M$. All they'll do is send out an MCSE tech and that's when they feel like getting around to it.

Are you joking? :-) What are you talking about? I have no support from MS, Suse, Oracle, whatever else here. There is no non-russian company wich will send engineers to help me, even for money.

And being open source you may install it on as many machines as you like you just don't get support for it. In the SLE8 brochure the point out that the have engineers they can send to you to help you get things setup, either by augementing an existing system/program/protocal or help you implement your own in house programs/codes/etc... However, if you have installed SLE8 on more machines then you bought licenses for do you really thing that they'll send you a engineer to help you -- if they did that they would go broke inside of a few months. I don't see anywhere that your forbidden from install it on other non-licensed machines. I just see where in order to utilize any support package/contract you have it has to be on a registered and licensed machine -- as it should be. Just my humble observations.

How can I support (yes! I support our servers, not Suse or MS!) without updates? :-) I agree that service costs money. I agree that I have to pay for access to maintenance web , because Suse package software, test packages (well, theoretically ;-) ) , certify this pakages for Oracle and other software. But I can't see difference between download I these packages for one server or for 4 servers. Anyway I test this packages and install them and I know that I'll never even meet with Suse employeers. There is no _service_ difference have I one login to maintenance web or four. Really, $800 per year is acceptable for our company (around 1.5 months my salary), $800 * 4 servers- definitely not, just because company need to pay me :-)

-- Billboard Writer vs. Literature = Micorsoft vs. Computing,

On Sunday 24 November 2002 10.00, Dmitry Melekhov wrote:

SLES8 license? :-) http://www.tecchannel.de/betriebssysteme/1073/images/0011589_PIC.gif

What is that? The MS EULA? Everybody's a comedian

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SLES8 license? :-) http://www.tecchannel.de/betriebssysteme/1073/images/0011589_PIC.gif

What is that? The MS EULA?

Everybody's a comedian

AJ> Holy shit, it's for real. What the hell is that? "In object code form only"??? AJ> Please tell me tecchannel.de faked that screen shot Sounds like IBM's influence... Isn't IBM involved with RedHat in the U.S. and SuSE in Europe? What are some of the ways that you can customize a SuSE/Linux environment if you aren't allowed to compile or isn't that a problem? I really liked the IBM Red Manuals. I wouldn't mind seeing that influence on SuSE ;-) Thank you. -- __________________________ DJ mailto: linux_programmer@hotmail.com

----- Original Message ----- From: "Dmitry Melekhov" To: "Michael Hasenstein" Cc: "suse-linux-e" Sent: Sunday, November 24, 2002 12:40 PM Subject: Re: [SLE] SLES8

Yesterday I found this on suse.com. I don't know when this appeared .... Oops! This disapperared again :-) Yesterday there was info about maintanance http://www.suse.com/us/business/services/index.html with licensing description. Where is it now? :-)

OK. I found it again. http://www.suse.de/en/business/services/support/maintenance/licencing.html