On Sunday, April 02, 2006 @ 5:15 AM, David Wright wrote:

Am Sonntag, 2. April 2006 10:41 schrieb Per Jessen:

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Greg Wallace wrote:

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Then again, I don't recall whether the downloads were actually a "legitimate" way of obtaining the product or not,

If downloading SUSE Linux was not legitimate, why would Novell be offering that possibility? AFAI have understood, Novell/SUSE/Redhat and other distro-vendors cannot charge anyone for the actual software (because it doesn't belong to them), and instead they are somehow obliged to make it freely available for download. I'm not sure exactly how this works though - I don't recall Novell making SLES available for download? SLES is effectively just another distro with a different support scheme/model.

They have to make the source code available - and that only to those that have "purchased" the product. So it depends on the business model of the company

in question as to whether the compiled and packaged product is available for free (look at Amstrad, they launched the a Linux based Email terminal, and to get the source code you had to include the purchase receipt and some money (25UKP ISTR) and they would send the code to you).

They can assemble the pieces together in a unique form with branding, manuals etc. and charge for it, whether that be a download or a bunch of CD's/DVD's

in a box from a shop.

They can put a version up for download if they want to, or they can just sell the retail version... Novell provide the OSS and Eval versions for free download.

Previous versions of SUSE had a lot of non-OSS packages, which was why the retail and download versions were very different, the download versions could only include the packages that were freely distributable... They are now working towards making the product more "pure" with just OSS software on teh main distribution disks/images and non-OSS software is relegated to CD 6 or

the retail DVD.

I see, I think. So if it's not open source then they can't put it out for people to do free downloads but can only include it in the retail version (and make some payment back to the author(s) for their non-OSS products that they are selling). For open source, it's strictly up to Novell as to whether they want to allow free downloads or only distribute it retail. I hope I have this right. Seems logical.

SLES costs a lot more, but you are paying for prolonged support and security updates, as well as the work they've put into the server management tools.

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though it would seem that Novell would not be in the business of giving away something they were simultaneously selling(?).

They're not. They're giving away the software/distro, but what they're selling is their value-add (manual, support, packaging etc.).

/Per Jessen, Zürich

Dave

James Knott wrote:

Per Jessen wrote:

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Greg Wallace wrote:

They don't have to make anything available for download. They have to make the source avaiable. Download is simply one method of making it avaiable. They could, for example, mail a stack of listings or punch cards, on request.

It is my understanding that they could charge a nominal fee for the source but anything the market would bear for the complete, compiled distribution. -- SUSE LINUX 10.0 (i586) -- 2.6.13-15.8-default -- Sun 04/02/06 3:35pm up 51 days 17:53, 3 users, load average: 0.03, 0.02, 0.00

On Sunday, April 02, 2006 @ 3:50 PM, Anders Johansson wrote:

On Sun, 2006-04-02 at 10:41 +0200, Per Jessen wrote:

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Greg Wallace wrote:

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Then again, I don't recall whether the downloads were actually a "legitimate" way of obtaining the product or not,

If downloading SUSE Linux was not legitimate, why would Novell be offering that possibility? AFAI have understood, Novell/SUSE/Redhat and other distro-vendors cannot charge anyone for the actual software (because it doesn't belong to them), and instead they are somehow obliged to make it freely available for download.

Not at all. The GPL explicitly allows anyone to charge for it. Please read the GPL FAQ at www.fsf.org

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I'm not sure exactly how this works though - I don't recall Novell making SLES available for download?

Well, we do. It's available from the web site, you get a 30 day evaluation period.

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They're not. They're giving away the software/distro, but what they're selling is their value-add (manual, support, packaging etc.).

Exactly. And the main focus is support

Though the packaging is also valuable, right? SuSE, Red Hat, etc. tie everything together in their distro. There's value in that above and beyond the value of the individual open source components therein, right? Greg Wallace

On Sunday 02 April 2006 5:38 pm, Anders Johansson wrote:

On Sun, 2006-04-02 at 16:14 -0500, Greg Wallace wrote:

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Though the packaging is also valuable, right? SuSE, Red Hat, etc. tie everything together in their distro. There's value in that above and beyond the value of the individual open source components therein, right? All the work that under paid guys did, as well as all the testing.. making certain the installer worked.. that is worth money.

I think the topic of discussion was between buying the software as opposed to downloading the rpms/ISO images for free. Then the main value add is the support you get when you buy it

And it used to be in the books, not the last package but prior ones included what amounted to text books that lead new folks ( myself included) into the linux world by the hand if need be. I didn't always read every word in them, but I always felt that if I needed some information in the dead of night I would find it in those books. And I was ( and still am ) willing to pay a good portion of the total price of each packaged set was in creating and writing and printing those books. I know there is this anti "dead tree: brigade about somewhere.. but the idea that you can just read it on your computer is no consolation when you can't get past a screen you have never seen before which wants you to enter....... what? Something? Anything ?????? IF you can not boot the machine the books on the hard drive do you less good than a good stiff drink ! -- j On the night wind that takes me just where I want That's all I want. La Vie Dansante

On Sunday, April 02, 2006 @ 4:38 PM, Anders Johansson wrote:

On Sun, 2006-04-02 at 16:14 -0500, Greg Wallace wrote:

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Though the packaging is also valuable, right? SuSE, Red Hat, etc. tie everything together in their distro. There's value in that above and beyond the value of the individual open source components therein, right?

Depends on what you mean by packaging. If you mean the work done to package up the software into rpms, then yes, certainly. There is a lot of work done to incorporate patches, to see to it that things work together nicely. There is also a security team who perform audits on critical software, and they have been known to locate security problems which were unpatched in the upstream project

It's a lot of work and obviously this is a value-add compared to downloading the individual tar.gz packages from the projects

But if you're talking about the CDs as opposed to downloadable iso images, or downloading the rpms from our web site (or a mirror) individually, then the value-add is more a matter of taste. It's nice to have the DVD around, especially when you want to install on someone else's machine

I think the topic of discussion was between buying the software as opposed to downloading the rpms/ISO images for free. Then the main value add is the support you get when you buy it

Anders: I was talking about the former, and I think that's the key to why it is worth paying for the boxed set. You're making a contribution to the effort that's being made in that area. If you are unhappy with a distro, send your money to another distro. On the other hand, if the distro makes some or all of their product available for free via download, and what's offered suits your needs, then that's fine too. Greg Wallace

Anders Johansson wrote:

I think the topic of discussion was between buying the software as opposed to downloading the rpms/ISO images for free. Then the main value add is the support you get when you buy it

The printed manual used to be an important value-add too. I think the first SUSE version I bought was 4.4.1 - to me, the printed manual was very important, the installation support less so. (maybe there was no installation support back then, I'm not sure). /Per Jessen, Zürich

On Monday 03 April 2006 5:04 am, Kevanf1 wrote:

On 03/04/06, Per Jessen wrote:

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Anders Johansson wrote:

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I think the topic of discussion was between buying the software as opposed to downloading the rpms/ISO images for free. Then the main value add is the support you get when you buy it

Answer to this question.. Yes, probably. I feel I should keep supporting them until they stop supporting me. So far that hasn't happened. And since I can legally take the SOHO box home and install it anywhere else I think I'd like to, it gets to be really cheap spread among all the computers I can find... <evil grin>

The printed manuals were a very big thing for me. I am finding that more and more I cannot sit for more than about 20 minutes in about every 4 hours at the computer. It is set up correctly regarding refresh rates etc. I get a migraine if I try to go beyond that 20 minutes.

Kevan, I know whatcha mean... me too.. they keep telling me frequent breaks will help.. does it help you? I haven't noticed any change unless I stay away from the box for a whole day or so.. then I have to hope none of my other triggers kick in. -- j P.S. I'm highly allergic to propranolol hydrochloride ( Inderal ) and similar.. I know what a heart attack feels like, and my heart is fine. I just had the symptoms caused by injection of that drug. But those sort of symptoms had the people who package the stuff tell me to throw my Rx away and never take it again.

Anders Johansson wrote:

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I'm not sure exactly how this works though - I don't recall Novell making SLES available for download?

Well, we do. It's available from the web site, you get a 30 day evaluation period.

True, but that's not exactly the same as "free, but without the support&service". I'm curious - you said "we do". Do you work for Novell now, Anders? /Per Jessen, Zürich

On Mon, 2006-04-03 at 18:26 +0200, Anders Johansson wrote:

On Mon, 2006-04-03 at 11:06 +0200, Per Jessen wrote:

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I'm curious - you said "we do". Do you work for Novell now, Anders?

Yes, since a little over a year. I'm working in Holland as one of the support engineers for the business products

Good on you.

Harikrishnan T wrote:

User manual is not provided in India. As usual, a card came along which promises 90 days installation support, but there seems no facility to register in the URL given (http://support.novell.com). My vendor was quite surprised with the order, and offered OpenSUSE CDs for a fraction of the cost. Maybe next time I will have to rethink.

Did you actually get the genuine Novell SUSE package? Or did you get a copy of it? There have been a few people who bought a copy, who thought they were getting the original.

On Monday 03 April 2006 5:29 am, Chaitanya Chalasani wrote:

On Sunday 02 April 2006 09:32, Greg Wallace wrote:

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When 10.0 came out, there was much discussion about the fact that you no longer got the Admin manual, just a, more or less, SuSE Linux for Dummies User Guide (okay, maybe it's a little better than that (or not as good?)). Many people were saying they should have just downloaded the software and not bought the retail version, since many of them were buying the retail version, at least in part, because of the nice handy Admin manual that came with it (though the matter was then raised as to how someone should be paying something to Novell to support the efforts being made by to improve the product). I guess this whole issue will be front and center again with the upcoming release. Buy the boxed set, or download, that is the question. Then again, I don't recall whether the downloads were actually a "legitimate" way of obtaining the product or not, though it would seem that Novell would not be in the business of giving away something they were simultaneously selling(?).

Greg Wallace

I Have been buying the suse box through online order from suse and novel since 9.0 and I will definitly go for the box for 10.1 as well. I never ever used the user and admin manuals so doesn't matter for me if the ship the manual along with the software or not.

Anders, guess this is where you slip messages into the "suggestion box" Perhaps they can offer it as a two boxed sets w/ and w/o manuals ?? That ought to be simple enough for folks to figure out which box they wanted. I kinda had the feelings that they dropped the "naming convention " because folks were confused by Pro appellation. I know there were always complaints about the name "home" version , even if I didn't understand the why of the complaints. -- j want to wander the bleeding edge? Get MS Windows and see how long it takes to have your banking info to be compromised .

On Monday, April 03, 2006 @ 4:12 PM, Jerry Feldman wrote:

On Monday 03 April 2006 5:09 pm, jfweber@gilweber.com wrote:

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Anders, guess this is where you slip messages into the "suggestion box" Perhaps they can offer it as a two boxed sets w/ and w/o manuals ?? That ought to be simple enough for folks to figure out which box they wanted. I kinda had the feelings that they dropped the "naming convention " because folks were confused by Pro appellation. I know there were always complaints about the name "home" version , even if I didn't understand the why of the complaints.

before 10.0 there were several retail boxed sets: 1. SuSE Linux Personal (lower cost) 2. SuSE Linux Professional 3. SuSE Linux Professional Upgrade. The Upgrade only had a single book, but was the complete set of DVD/CDs.

I think that the current one where there is one boxed set, it less confusing to people. And, those who buy the boxed set have all the bits in there.

Minus the Admin manual

-- Jerry Feldman Boston Linux and Unix user group http://www.blu.org PGP key id:C5061EA9 PGP Key fingerprint:053C 73EC 3AC1 5C44 3E14 9245 FB00 3ED5 C506 1EA9

Greg Wallace