[opensuse] raspi dropping wifi ?

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Per Jessen

18 Jun 2020 18 Jun '20

07:17

Dave Howorth wrote:

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On Tue, 16 Jun 2020 21:27:27 +0200 Per Jessen wrote:

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Dave Howorth wrote:

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On Tue, 16 Jun 2020 21:08:56 +0200 Per Jessen wrote:

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I have a Raspi running 24h, and it has problems with the wifi dropping occasionally. I've put some monitoring on it to try to debug the problem. Just today I saw a mail attempted, but failed due to lack of DNS. (the wifi was just coming up).

Check the number of retries and if excessive:

$ sudo iwconfig wlan0 retry short 14

Thanks, I have not seen that incantation mentioned. People are suggesting to turn off power management, which I have just done tonight.

Turning off power management made it last a lot longer, almost four hours before it dropped again. I tried out your suggestion too, made no difference. I happened to look at the signal strength, and for some reason, the Raspi always picked the AP with the least signal (27/70), dunno why. I pointed it to a different AP, and it's been fine for almost 24hours now. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (16.9°C) http://www.dns24.ch/ - free dynamic DNS, made in Switzerland. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Show replies by date

David C. Rankin

18 Jun 18 Jun

23:26

On 06/18/2020 02:17 AM, Per Jessen wrote:

...

Dave Howorth wrote:

...
On Tue, 16 Jun 2020 21:27:27 +0200 Per Jessen wrote:

...
Dave Howorth wrote:

...
On Tue, 16 Jun 2020 21:08:56 +0200 Per Jessen wrote:

...
I have a Raspi running 24h, and it has problems with the wifi dropping occasionally. I've put some monitoring on it to try to debug the problem. Just today I saw a mail attempted, but failed due to lack of DNS. (the wifi was just coming up).

Check the number of retries and if excessive:

$ sudo iwconfig wlan0 retry short 14

Thanks, I have not seen that incantation mentioned. People are suggesting to turn off power management, which I have just done tonight.

Turning off power management made it last a lot longer, almost four hours before it dropped again. I tried out your suggestion too, made no difference. I happened to look at the signal strength, and for some reason, the Raspi always picked the AP with the least signal (27/70), dunno why. I pointed it to a different AP, and it's been fine for almost 24hours now.

I don't know if the Wifi is a must for you, but I've had a Pi3 hanging off my network (cabled) since 2016 and it has been absolutely bulletproof. 5-foot of CAT 5E and 2 RJ-11 cable ends and a crimping tool goes a long way toward eliminating the Wifi problem :p -- David C. Rankin, J.D.,P.E. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Per Jessen

19 Jun 19 Jun

05:29

David C. Rankin wrote: [snip]

...

I don't know if the Wifi is a must for you, but I've had a Pi3 hanging off my network (cabled) since 2016 and it has been absolutely bulletproof. 5-foot of CAT 5E and 2 RJ-11 cable ends and a crimping tool goes a long way toward eliminating the Wifi problem :p

Hehe, yeah I'm sure it does :-) Wifi is a must, without Wifi it would have been too much effort to drag the cables etc. I have one Raspi and three nanopis in locations that are slightly difficult to access, certainly with a cat5. The nanos do also have problems with the wifi, maybe I'll have to check their signal strengths too. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (14.5°C) http://www.hostsuisse.com/ - virtual servers, made in Switzerland. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Anton Aylward

14:12

On 19/06/2020 01:29, Per Jessen wrote:

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The nanos do also have problems with the wifi, maybe I'll have to check their signal strengths too.

That may be the wrong strategy, it may even be a counterproductive strategy. Last year the wifi from my Thompson router worked just fine but a month or so ago I was having problems. I downloaded (eventually) a signal strength analyser and realised what is going on. YMMV Thanks to the lockdown everyone is at home all days, adults and kids. All using the 'Net, much of it using wifi. This is a condo townhouse estate; houses are close to each other. Most people seem to solve their wifi problem by turning up the signal strength! Crazy, but the strongest signal I get is from over 250 meters away and is 12dB stronger than anything else. Everyone is trying to swamp everyone else ... ... but ... The tool can also analyse by channel and it seems the 'auto' setting starts at channels #1 and stops at maybe #10. Higher channels than that are unoccupied, so i set my router to use #14 and have no problems, even though I'm 60dB weaker than my nearest neighbour. Download an app like that to your phone and look at what's going on in the wifi spectrum. -- A: Yes. > Q: Are you sure? >> A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation. >>> Q: Why is top posting frowned upon? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Per Jessen

15:38

Anton Aylward wrote:

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On 19/06/2020 01:29, Per Jessen wrote:

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The nanos do also have problems with the wifi, maybe I'll have to check their signal strengths too.

That may be the wrong strategy, it may even be a counterproductive strategy.

Last year the wifi from my Thompson router worked just fine but a month or so ago I was having problems. I downloaded (eventually) a signal strength analyser and realised what is going on.

Oh, I only go by what iwconfig tells me. There is a quality and signal strength indicator.

...

Thanks to the lockdown everyone is at home all days, adults and kids. All using the 'Net, much of it using wifi.

This is a condo townhouse estate; houses are close to each other.

Most people seem to solve their wifi problem by turning up the signal strength!

The access points default to "high" anyway, so not much to do :-)

...

The tool can also analyse by channel and it seems the 'auto' setting starts at channels #1 and stops at maybe #10. Higher channels than that are unoccupied, so i set my router to use #14 and have no

Seems I have only 1-13 :-)

...

Download an app like that to your phone and look at what's going on in the wifi spectrum.

Hmm, not a bad idea. I know which access points we have, including the neighbour's, but still. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (17.2°C) http://www.dns24.ch/ - free dynamic DNS, made in Switzerland. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Carlos E. R.

17:15

On 19/06/2020 17.38, Per Jessen wrote:

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Anton Aylward wrote:

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On 19/06/2020 01:29, Per Jessen wrote:

...
The nanos do also have problems with the wifi, maybe I'll have to check their signal strengths too.

That may be the wrong strategy, it may even be a counterproductive strategy.

Last year the wifi from my Thompson router worked just fine but a month or so ago I was having problems. I downloaded (eventually) a signal strength analyser and realised what is going on.

Oh, I only go by what iwconfig tells me. There is a quality and signal strength indicator.

...
Thanks to the lockdown everyone is at home all days, adults and kids. All using the 'Net, much of it using wifi.

This is a condo townhouse estate; houses are close to each other.

Most people seem to solve their wifi problem by turning up the signal strength!

The access points default to "high" anyway, so not much to do :-)

You get an improvement by using an access point that supports MIMO (3 antennas). It can shape the transmission to give more power in the direction of the receiver. Those other people are possibly using illegal power enhancers.

...

...
The tool can also analyse by channel and it seems the 'auto' setting starts at channels #1 and stops at maybe #10. Higher channels than that are unoccupied, so i set my router to use #14 and have no

Seems I have only 1-13 :-)

...
Download an app like that to your phone and look at what's going on in the wifi spectrum.

Hmm, not a bad idea. I know which access points we have, including the neighbour's, but still.

I use Wifi analyzer by farproc. It works on my tablet, fails on my phone. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.1 x86_64 at Telcontar)

Anton Aylward

17:26

On 19/06/2020 13:15, Carlos E. R. wrote:

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You get an improvement by using an access point that supports MIMO (3 antennas). It can shape the transmission to give more power in the direction of the receiver.

And of course location the access point helps :-) But since mine is a combined router that has to be within a cable outlet range (and yes I have a long cable from the outlet, but even so) and the switch can cable range of the PCs and printer etc etc ... I don't have the flexibility that some online articles suggest for 'central placement. But my point is that what I have is 'good enough' and worked just fine even with the AP set to 30% output last year. Overpowering is unsociable

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Those other people are possibly using illegal power enhancers.

That is quite likely. And unsociable as well. -- A: Yes. > Q: Are you sure? >> A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation. >>> Q: Why is top posting frowned upon? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Carlos E. R.

17:30

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Friday, 2020-06-19 at 13:26 -0400, Anton Aylward wrote:

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On 19/06/2020 13:15, Carlos E. R. wrote:

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You get an improvement by using an access point that supports MIMO (3 antennas). It can shape the transmission to give more power in the direction of the receiver.

And of course location the access point helps :-) But since mine is a combined router that has to be within a cable outlet range (and yes I have a long cable from the outlet, but even so) and the switch can cable range of the PCs and printer etc etc ... I don't have the flexibility that some online articles suggest for 'central placement.

I forgot to mention that it is designed for a flat, not for a house with two or more levels.

...

But my point is that what I have is 'good enough' and worked just fine even with the AP set to 30% output last year.

Overpowering is unsociable

...
Those other people are possibly using illegal power enhancers.

That is quite likely. And unsociable as well.

Certainly unsociable. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. (from openSUSE 15.1 x86_64 at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iHoEARECADoWIQQZEb51mJKK1KpcU/W1MxgcbY1H1QUCXuz2Ihwccm9iaW4ubGlz dGFzQHRlbGVmb25pY2EubmV0AAoJELUzGBxtjUfVKtYAn3ISyk7jSSzZZCun+IN9 00T99L+tAJ9tmkXsjCu92EJIyGotbw2bPfNa6w== =E7uC -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Anton Aylward

17:40

On 19/06/2020 13:30, Carlos E. R. wrote:

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I forgot to mention that it is designed for a flat, not for a house with two or more levels.

Ah. The scanner I have indicates a powerful AP labelled 'BASEMENT'. Looking at distances I suspect that it is one of a couple of APs in that house, never mind that I can access it (I don't know the password though) from more that 80 meters away and I suspect at an elevation of about 12 meters (say 40 feet). There are plenty of articles on the 'Net about how to cut out cardboard shapes and cover them in tin foil to make reflectors for the two antenna that stick up on many routers. My Thompson has internal antennas. *sigh* I saw an article about converting a wifi router with internal antenna to added external ones, drilling and re-wiring. Some time I should open up the Thompson to see if it has the sort of internal connections mentioned in that article. -- A: Yes. > Q: Are you sure? >> A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation. >>> Q: Why is top posting frowned upon? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

James Knott

18:11

On 2020-06-19 01:40 PM, Anton Aylward wrote:

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I saw an article about converting a wifi router with internal antenna to added external ones, drilling and re-wiring. Some time I should open up the Thompson to see if it has the sort of internal connections mentioned in that article.

Actually, any such modification, other than for amateur radio use, is illegal. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Carlos E. R.

22 Jun 22 Jun

17:08

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Re-sending. El 2020-06-19 a las 14:11 -0400, James Knott escribió:

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On 2020-06-19 01:40 PM, Anton Aylward wrote:

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I saw an article about converting a wifi router with internal antenna to added external ones, drilling and re-wiring. Some time I should open up the Thompson to see if it has the sort of internal connections mentioned in that article.

Actually, any such modification, other than for amateur radio use, is illegal.

On a training course I did, one of the items was making a WiFi antenna out of a Pringles cylinder box - I mean really making and testing one, not reading about it :-D - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.1 x86_64 at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iHoEARECADoWIQQZEb51mJKK1KpcU/W1MxgcbY1H1QUCXvDlkRwccm9iaW4ubGlz dGFzQHRlbGVmb25pY2EubmV0AAoJELUzGBxtjUfVZmQAnRX0+bnRAAANCH+080cE chFJXq4KAJ4uqNDaTwmCf5JvlLoGpRYgs0tnvg== =Le4X -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

Anton Aylward

25 Jun 25 Jun

17:13

On 19/06/2020 13:40, Anton Aylward wrote:

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There are plenty of articles on the 'Net about how to cut out cardboard shapes and cover them in tin foil to make reflectors for the two antenna that stick up on many routers.

Foil wrapped around cardboard template. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QAuWu9DAvk4 Templates at http://www.freeantennas.com/projects/template2/ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tonZeKP-Mi4 results? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_E-4q6q1HmA Or you can go to extremes ... https://www.instructables.com/id/%2522Poorman-s-WiFi%2522--USB-adapters-%252... WOW Don't mention that to the Pastafarians. https://www.instructables.com/id/10--WIFI-16dBi-Super-Antenna-Pictorial/

...

My Thompson has internal antennas. *sigh*

I saw an article about converting a wifi router with internal antenna to added external ones, drilling and re-wiring. Some time I should open up the Thompson to see if it has the sort of internal connections mentioned in that article.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Yw-Lm1vn0c -- A: Yes. > Q: Are you sure? >> A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation. >>> Q: Why is top posting frowned upon? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

James Knott

19 Jun 19 Jun

18:09

On 2020-06-19 01:15 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:

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Those other people are possibly using illegal power enhancers.

Actually, there's one situation where much higher power is legal. Both the 2.4 and 5 GHz bands partially overlap amateur radio bands. On those frequencies, radio amateurs are allowed up to 1 KW. Yep, a thousand watts! That's the same neighbourhood as a microwave oven. Note, this is DC input power. In pulsed service, the peak power levels could be significantly higher Some of the WiFi spectrum is also shared with radar, where high power is also used, though individuals wouldn't be involved with that. So, I could legally run more than enough power to knock out every WiFi device in the vicinity. Under the laws regarding licensed and unlicensed services the WiFi users have to accept such interference, but cannot interfere with the licensed service. https://www.ic.gc.ca/eic/site/smt-gst.nsf/eng/sf01226.html#t1 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Carlos E. R.

22 Jun 22 Jun

17:11

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Resending. El 2020-06-19 a las 14:09 -0400, James Knott escribió:

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On 2020-06-19 01:15 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:

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Those other people are possibly using illegal power enhancers.

Actually, there's one situation where much higher power is legal. Both the 2.4 and 5 GHz bands partially overlap amateur radio bands. On those frequencies, radio amateurs are allowed up to 1 KW. Yep, a thousand watts! That's the same neighbourhood as a microwave oven. Note, this is DC input power. In pulsed service, the peak power levels could be significantly higher

Some of the WiFi spectrum is also shared with radar, where high power is also used, though individuals wouldn't be involved with that.

So, I could legally run more than enough power to knock out every WiFi device in the vicinity. Under the laws regarding licensed and unlicensed services the WiFi users have to accept such interference, but cannot interfere with the licensed service.

Which it is absurd, if you think properly. They probably thought that it was something of little real use, just for geeks, not worth carving out a bit of spectrum solely for them.

...

https://www.ic.gc.ca/eic/site/smt-gst.nsf/eng/sf01226.html#t1

- -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.1 x86_64 at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iHoEARECADoWIQQZEb51mJKK1KpcU/W1MxgcbY1H1QUCXvDmJhwccm9iaW4ubGlz dGFzQHRlbGVmb25pY2EubmV0AAoJELUzGBxtjUfVlD8Ani/lAnx9gktNFYdGl0nW LQG4XY+EAJ9OV8XfCaR/WYBhMEra8CcS3LNdIQ== =lZXo -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

James Knott

17:38

On 2020-06-22 01:11 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:

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So, I could legally run more than enough power to knock out every WiFi device in the vicinity. Under the laws regarding licensed and unlicensed services the WiFi users have to accept such interference, but cannot interfere with the licensed service.

Which it is absurd, if you think properly. They probably thought that it was something of little real use, just for geeks, not worth carving out a bit of spectrum solely for them.

No, that's the way things have been done, long before there was WiFi. There are primary, secondary and sometimes tertiary users. This means the primary user has protection from the secondary, but the secondary has none from the primary. WiFi is unlicensed and as such has no protection and cannot interfere with others. As an example, there is a popular band at 7 MHz. This band is or was shared with broadcasters, with amateur radio secondary. So, amateurs were free to use that band, so long as they don't interfere with the broadcasters. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Per Jessen

17:20

James Knott wrote:

...

On 2020-06-19 01:15 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...
Those other people are possibly using illegal power enhancers.

Actually, there's one situation where much higher power is legal. Both the 2.4 and 5 GHz bands partially overlap amateur radio bands. On those frequencies, radio amateurs are allowed up to 1 KW. Yep, a thousand watts! That's the same neighbourhood as a microwave oven. Note, this is DC input power.

<offtopic> Really ? I haven't been active as a ham for a long time, but last time, the power rating was specified as ERP, certainly not DC input power. With a class A license in ITU region 1, you also get to use 1kW ERP up to 2 meters (144MHz) and 70 centimeter (432MHz), but only 250W on the microwave bands above that. </offtopic> -- Per Jessen, Zürich (17.9°C) http://www.hostsuisse.com/ - dedicated server rental in Switzerland. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

James Knott

17:42

On 2020-06-22 01:20 PM, Per Jessen wrote:

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Really ? I haven't been active as a ham for a long time, but last time, the power rating was specified as ERP, certainly not DC input power.

ERP tends to be used for commercial services, which takes antenna gain and feedline loss into consideration. With amateur radio, at least in North America, it's either DC input power or peak envelope power, depending on the signal type. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Bruce Ferrell

21:30

On 6/22/20 10:42, James Knott wrote:

...

On 2020-06-22 01:20 PM, Per Jessen wrote:

...
Really ? I haven't been active as a ham for a long time, but last time, the power rating was specified as ERP, certainly not DC input power.

ERP tends to be used for commercial services, which takes antenna gain and feedline loss into consideration. With amateur radio, at least in North America, it's either DC input power or peak envelope power, depending on the signal type.

James, Do you hold an amateur license? I do and have off and on since high school. I also used to hold a commercial radio license as well (long ago expired). The law specifies the limits as ERP for commercial as well and amateur emissions for exactly the reasons you enumerated... The combinations of antenna gain, line loss etc, to prevent quasi-lawyers form cranking the combination to emit beyond the lawful levels and then pointing the particular parameter that is in spec and claiming to be legal. It's also why amateurs are held fully accountable for violations that exceed ERP. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

James Knott

23 Jun 23 Jun

03:03

On 2020-06-22 05:30 PM, Bruce Ferrell wrote:

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ERP tends to be used for commercial services, which takes antenna gain and feedline loss into consideration. With amateur radio, at least in North America, it's either DC input power or peak envelope power, depending on the signal type.

James,

Do you hold an amateur license? I do and have off and on since high school. I also used to hold a commercial radio license as well (long ago expired).

Yes, I've had my licence for almost 50 years.

...

The law specifies the limits as ERP for commercial as well and amateur emissions for exactly the reasons you enumerated... The combinations of antenna gain, line loss etc, to prevent quasi-lawyers form cranking the combination to emit beyond the lawful levels and then pointing the particular parameter that is in spec and claiming to be legal.

It's also why amateurs are held fully accountable for violations that exceed ERP.

In that link I provided, it listed power levels: 10.2 Amateur Radio Operator Certificate with Advanced Qualification The holder of an Amateur Radio Operator Certificate with Advanced Qualification is limited to a maximum transmitting power of: * (a) where expressed as direct-current input power, 1,000 W to the anode or collector circuit of the transmitter stage that supplies radio frequency energy to the antenna; or * (b) where expressed as radio frequency output power measured across an impedance-matched load, o (i) 2,250 W peak envelope power for transmitters that produce any type of single sideband emission, or o (ii) 750 W carrier power for transmitters that produce any other type of emission. I have the advanced licence. So, it's strictly transmitter power that's considered, not antenna gain, feed line loss, etc.. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

James Knott

03:03

On 2020-06-22 11:03 PM, James Knott wrote:

...

On 2020-06-22 05:30 PM, Bruce Ferrell wrote:

...
...
ERP tends to be used for commercial services, which takes antenna gain and feedline loss into consideration. With amateur radio, at least in North America, it's either DC input power or peak envelope power, depending on the signal type.

James,

Do you hold an amateur license? I do and have off and on since high school. I also used to hold a commercial radio license as well (long ago expired).

Yes, I've had my licence for almost 50 years.

...
The law specifies the limits as ERP for commercial as well and amateur emissions for exactly the reasons you enumerated... The combinations of antenna gain, line loss etc, to prevent quasi-lawyers form cranking the combination to emit beyond the lawful levels and then pointing the particular parameter that is in spec and claiming to be legal.

It's also why amateurs are held fully accountable for violations that exceed ERP.

In that link I provided, it listed power levels:

10.2 Amateur Radio Operator Certificate with Advanced Qualification

The holder of an Amateur Radio Operator Certificate with Advanced Qualification is limited to a maximum transmitting power of:

* (a) where expressed as direct-current input power, 1,000 W to the anode or collector circuit of the transmitter stage that supplies radio frequency energy to the antenna; or * (b) where expressed as radio frequency output power measured across an impedance-matched load, o (i) 2,250 W peak envelope power for transmitters that produce any type of single sideband emission, or o (ii) 750 W carrier power for transmitters that produce any other type of emission.

I have the advanced licence.

So, it's strictly transmitter power that's considered, not antenna gain, feed line loss, etc..

Here's the link again: https://www.ic.gc.ca/eic/site/smt-gst.nsf/eng/sf01226.html#t1 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Per Jessen

22 Jun 22 Jun

14:34

Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

On 19/06/2020 17.38, Per Jessen wrote:

...
...
Most people seem to solve their wifi problem by turning up the signal strength!

The access points default to "high" anyway, so not much to do :-)

You get an improvement by using an access point that supports MIMO (3 antennas). It can shape the transmission to give more power in the direction of the receiver.

Well, the two TP-link APs only have two each, and the D-link only one, so that's unlikely I guess :-) They're probably also too old. I don't need more power anyway, every device is well within the wifi operating range. It's more about the signal being blocked/restricted by e.g. metal doors, steel reinforced concrete etc. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (16.8°C) http://www.hostsuisse.com/ - virtual servers, made in Switzerland. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Carlos E. R.

17:20

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 El 2020-06-22 a las 16:34 +0200, Per Jessen escribió:

...

Carlos E. R. wrote:

...
On 19/06/2020 17.38, Per Jessen wrote:

...
...
Most people seem to solve their wifi problem by turning up the signal strength!

The access points default to "high" anyway, so not much to do :-)

You get an improvement by using an access point that supports MIMO (3 antennas). It can shape the transmission to give more power in the direction of the receiver.

Well, the two TP-link APs only have two each, and the D-link only one, so that's unlikely I guess :-) They're probably also too old. I don't need more power anyway, every device is well within the wifi operating range. It's more about the signal being blocked/restricted by e.g. metal doors, steel reinforced concrete etc.

The transmission power is the same, but it is aimed or focused in the direction of the other device, which "sees" more power, perhaps compensating for the attenuation of the building. Then there is another possibility which I don't know how to implement: ducts or special cables that pass the signal from floor to floor, passively. It works in one floor as a receiver, crosses the floor via a hole, and transmits it on other floors. I think it looks like a coax cable with the screen removed in parts. It is used on very high rise buildings so that the radios used by emergency personnel can work. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. (from openSUSE 15.1 x86_64 at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iHoEARECADoWIQQZEb51mJKK1KpcU/W1MxgcbY1H1QUCXvDoTBwccm9iaW4ubGlz dGFzQHRlbGVmb25pY2EubmV0AAoJELUzGBxtjUfVgnsAmwYo1HIJeF9E4dyxIV4o DLYjJZsaAKCP4Gxjxy7I1k8bDCO/OUpcA0legQ== =w0Mn -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

Per Jessen

17:39

Carlos E. R. wrote:

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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1

El 2020-06-22 a las 16:34 +0200, Per Jessen escribió:

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Carlos E. R. wrote:

...
On 19/06/2020 17.38, Per Jessen wrote:

...
...
Most people seem to solve their wifi problem by turning up the signal strength!

The access points default to "high" anyway, so not much to do :-)

You get an improvement by using an access point that supports MIMO (3 antennas). It can shape the transmission to give more power in the direction of the receiver.

Well, the two TP-link APs only have two each, and the D-link only one, so that's unlikely I guess :-) They're probably also too old. I don't need more power anyway, every device is well within the wifi operating range. It's more about the signal being blocked/restricted by e.g. metal doors, steel reinforced concrete etc.

The transmission power is the same, but it is aimed or focused in the direction of the other device, which "sees" more power, perhaps compensating for the attenuation of the building.

I guess it might be worth trying when we upgrade, but lack of signal is not really the problem.

...

Then there is another possibility which I don't know how to implement: ducts or special cables that pass the signal from floor to floor, passively.

Yup, we have that - ethernet :-) -- Per Jessen, Zürich (25.1°C) http://www.dns24.ch/ - free dynamic DNS, made in Switzerland. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Carlos E. R.

17:52

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Monday, 2020-06-22 at 19:39 +0200, Per Jessen wrote:

...

Carlos E. R. wrote:

...
El 2020-06-22 a las 16:34 +0200, Per Jessen escribió:

...
Carlos E. R. wrote:

...
On 19/06/2020 17.38, Per Jessen wrote:

...
...
Most people seem to solve their wifi problem by turning up the signal strength!

The access points default to "high" anyway, so not much to do :-)

You get an improvement by using an access point that supports MIMO (3 antennas). It can shape the transmission to give more power in the direction of the receiver.

Well, the two TP-link APs only have two each, and the D-link only one, so that's unlikely I guess :-) They're probably also too old. I don't need more power anyway, every device is well within the wifi operating range. It's more about the signal being blocked/restricted by e.g. metal doors, steel reinforced concrete etc.

The transmission power is the same, but it is aimed or focused in the direction of the other device, which "sees" more power, perhaps compensating for the attenuation of the building.

I guess it might be worth trying when we upgrade, but lack of signal is not really the problem.

Have you tested yet with the android app?

...

...
Then there is another possibility which I don't know how to implement: ducts or special cables that pass the signal from floor to floor, passively.

Yup, we have that - ethernet :-)

No no, it is radio. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. (from openSUSE 15.1 x86_64 at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iHoEARECADoWIQQZEb51mJKK1KpcU/W1MxgcbY1H1QUCXvDv5Bwccm9iaW4ubGlz dGFzQHRlbGVmb25pY2EubmV0AAoJELUzGBxtjUfVepIAnjt7WaTedlcVaUKE8riY 3NsHW6tqAJ9XkkyZKQYXmnDrOEnpqVfEIsEhLQ== =50ym -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

Per Jessen

18:07

Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1

On Monday, 2020-06-22 at 19:39 +0200, Per Jessen wrote:

...
Carlos E. R. wrote:

...
El 2020-06-22 a las 16:34 +0200, Per Jessen escribió:

...
Carlos E. R. wrote:

...
On 19/06/2020 17.38, Per Jessen wrote:

...
> Most people seem to solve their wifi problem by turning up the > signal strength!

The access points default to "high" anyway, so not much to do :-)

You get an improvement by using an access point that supports MIMO (3 antennas). It can shape the transmission to give more power in the direction of the receiver.

Well, the two TP-link APs only have two each, and the D-link only one, so that's unlikely I guess :-) They're probably also too old. I don't need more power anyway, every device is well within the wifi operating range. It's more about the signal being blocked/restricted by e.g. metal doors, steel reinforced concrete etc.

The transmission power is the same, but it is aimed or focused in the direction of the other device, which "sees" more power, perhaps compensating for the attenuation of the building.

I guess it might be worth trying when we upgrade, but lack of signal is not really the problem.

Have you tested yet with the android app?

No - iwconfig gives me all the numbers I need I think. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (22.1°C) http://www.dns24.ch/ - free dynamic DNS, made in Switzerland. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Carlos E. R.

18:48

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Monday, 2020-06-22 at 20:07 +0200, Per Jessen wrote:

...

Carlos E. R. wrote:

...
On Monday, 2020-06-22 at 19:39 +0200, Per Jessen wrote:

...

...
...
I guess it might be worth trying when we upgrade, but lack of signal is not really the problem.

Have you tested yet with the android app?

No - iwconfig gives me all the numbers I need I think.

You can not move around the house with that. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. (from openSUSE 15.1 x86_64 at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iHoEARECADoWIQQZEb51mJKK1KpcU/W1MxgcbY1H1QUCXvD8+xwccm9iaW4ubGlz dGFzQHRlbGVmb25pY2EubmV0AAoJELUzGBxtjUfV6LEAn0kcOdjrKnQXVt38fxXt PHpv1grcAJ4mBO1dIoL5s0Mnx1zdNaApNIZIew== =FOb9 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Dave Howorth

18:57

On Mon, 22 Jun 2020 20:48:27 +0200 (CEST) "Carlos E. R." wrote:

...

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1

On Monday, 2020-06-22 at 20:07 +0200, Per Jessen wrote:

...
Carlos E. R. wrote:

...
On Monday, 2020-06-22 at 19:39 +0200, Per Jessen wrote:

...
...
...
I guess it might be worth trying when we upgrade, but lack of signal is not really the problem.

Have you tested yet with the android app?

No - iwconfig gives me all the numbers I need I think.

You can not move around the house with that.

Of course you can with a pi! -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Carlos E. R.

19:04

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Monday, 2020-06-22 at 19:57 +0100, Dave Howorth wrote:

...

On Mon, 22 Jun 2020 20:48:27 +0200 (CEST) "Carlos E. R." <> wrote:

...
On Monday, 2020-06-22 at 20:07 +0200, Per Jessen wrote:

...
Carlos E. R. wrote:

...
On Monday, 2020-06-22 at 19:39 +0200, Per Jessen wrote:

...
...
...
I guess it might be worth trying when we upgrade, but lack of signal is not really the problem.

Have you tested yet with the android app?

No - iwconfig gives me all the numbers I need I think.

You can not move around the house with that.

Of course you can with a pi!

His' is not on battery. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. (from openSUSE 15.1 x86_64 at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iHoEARECADoWIQQZEb51mJKK1KpcU/W1MxgcbY1H1QUCXvEAuhwccm9iaW4ubGlz dGFzQHRlbGVmb25pY2EubmV0AAoJELUzGBxtjUfVRaEAniD0NAdybNwe4MAvDI9a yUwVtogkAJ4toqwO1wiOUhiVdUfD2et3AU1D4A== =iEZq -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Per Jessen

19:23

Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

On Monday, 2020-06-22 at 20:07 +0200, Per Jessen wrote:

...
Carlos E. R. wrote:

...
On Monday, 2020-06-22 at 19:39 +0200, Per Jessen wrote:

...
...
...
I guess it might be worth trying when we upgrade, but lack of signal is not really the problem.

Have you tested yet with the android app?

No - iwconfig gives me all the numbers I need I think.

You can not move around the house with that.

I don't want to either - my ARM devices aren't going to move, they're in fairly fixed locations, roughly a 50cm radius from the power supply. I have more mobility with the access points :-) -- Per Jessen, Zürich (20.2°C) http://www.hostsuisse.com/ - dedicated server rental in Switzerland. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Carlos E. R.

19:58

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Monday, 2020-06-22 at 21:23 +0200, Per Jessen wrote:

...

Carlos E. R. wrote:

...
On Monday, 2020-06-22 at 20:07 +0200, Per Jessen wrote:

...
Carlos E. R. wrote:

...
On Monday, 2020-06-22 at 19:39 +0200, Per Jessen wrote:

...
...
...
I guess it might be worth trying when we upgrade, but lack of signal is not really the problem.

Have you tested yet with the android app?

No - iwconfig gives me all the numbers I need I think.

You can not move around the house with that.

I don't want to either - my ARM devices aren't going to move, they're in fairly fixed locations, roughly a 50cm radius from the power supply.

Sure, but you get a picture in minutes. All signals from your APs and those of your neighbours, in nice coloured graphics. :-)

...

I have more mobility with the access points :-)

Well, tell your son to move an AP as you watch the screen at the receiving side :-) - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. (from openSUSE 15.1 x86_64 at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iHoEARECADoWIQQZEb51mJKK1KpcU/W1MxgcbY1H1QUCXvENfhwccm9iaW4ubGlz dGFzQHRlbGVmb25pY2EubmV0AAoJELUzGBxtjUfVgHoAn0fPMrhpeNm3MxJbPurZ yky4b2rtAJ90ERjvo2zp8kSpyAHGRF+fdNJJIw== =zazM -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Per Jessen

23 Jun 23 Jun

07:11

Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

Sure, but you get a picture in minutes. All signals from your APs and those of your neighbours, in nice coloured graphics. :-)

Okay, I give in - which app is it ? -- Per Jessen, Zürich (19.2°C) http://www.cloudsuisse.com/ - your owncloud, hosted in Switzerland. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Carlos E. R.

10:46

On 23/06/2020 09.11, Per Jessen wrote:

...

Carlos E. R. wrote:

...
Sure, but you get a picture in minutes. All signals from your APs and those of your neighbours, in nice coloured graphics. :-)

Okay, I give in - which app is it ?

WiFi analyzer by far proc (Kevin Yuan). It runs fine in my tablet, but the other day it failed completely in my phone. (I attached a screenshot on a direct mail to you) Some years ago we commented about these apps somewhere, and that there were no similar apps for Linux. Someone made a quick app, I don't remember the name. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.1 x86_64 at Telcontar)

James Knott

10:52

On 2020-06-23 06:46 AM, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

On 23/06/2020 09.11, Per Jessen wrote:

...
Carlos E. R. wrote:

...
Sure, but you get a picture in minutes. All signals from your APs and those of your neighbours, in nice coloured graphics. :-)

Okay, I give in - which app is it ?

WiFi analyzer by far proc (Kevin Yuan). It runs fine in my tablet, but the other day it failed completely in my phone.

I have that on my phone and tablet too. There was another app, which I paid for the ad free version. Then they changed it and wanted to charge for again, so I dropped it.

...

(I attached a screenshot on a direct mail to you)

Some years ago we commented about these apps somewhere, and that there were no similar apps for Linux. Someone made a quick app, I don't remember the name.

There was kismet, IIRC, but it wasn't in pretty colours. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Carlos E. R.

11:10

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Tuesday, 2020-06-23 at 06:52 -0400, James Knott wrote:

...

On 2020-06-23 06:46 AM, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...
On 23/06/2020 09.11, Per Jessen wrote:

...
Carlos E. R. wrote:

...
Sure, but you get a picture in minutes. All signals from your APs and those of your neighbours, in nice coloured graphics. :-)

Okay, I give in - which app is it ?

WiFi analyzer by far proc (Kevin Yuan). It runs fine in my tablet, but the other day it failed completely in my phone.

I have that on my phone and tablet too. There was another app, which I paid for the ad free version. Then they changed it and wanted to charge for again, so I dropped it.

Agh.

...

...
Some years ago we commented about these apps somewhere, and that there were no similar apps for Linux. Someone made a quick app, I don't remember the name.

There was kismet, IIRC, but it wasn't in pretty colours.

Colours are important :-D On one app, I don't remember which, the graphs were trapezoidal lines, not nice curves. But that probably means that those graphs are not the actual reception levels, but deduced from reported signal level and bandwidth figures. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. (from openSUSE 15.1 x86_64 at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iHoEARECADoWIQQZEb51mJKK1KpcU/W1MxgcbY1H1QUCXvHjChwccm9iaW4ubGlz dGFzQHRlbGVmb25pY2EubmV0AAoJELUzGBxtjUfVUqIAoIpmhFW3eqmviX3Fl1Zs 2V3wX91OAJ9IlkYB8ij7SYWimssZ+ZOetWLJ/A== =X4z6 -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

Per Jessen

12:27

Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

On 23/06/2020 09.11, Per Jessen wrote:

...
Carlos E. R. wrote:

...
Sure, but you get a picture in minutes. All signals from your APs and those of your neighbours, in nice coloured graphics. :-)

Okay, I give in - which app is it ?

WiFi analyzer by far proc (Kevin Yuan). It runs fine in my tablet, but the other day it failed completely in my phone.

Okay, I downloaded one of them - yeah it's prettier than iwconfig :-) -- Per Jessen, Zürich (26.0°C) http://www.hostsuisse.com/ - dedicated server rental in Switzerland. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Anton Aylward

12:50

On 23/06/2020 03:11, Per Jessen wrote:

...

Carlos E. R. wrote:

...
Sure, but you get a picture in minutes. All signals from your APs and those of your neighbours, in nice coloured graphics. :-)

Okay, I give in - which app is it ?

Wifi Analyser @ Android playstore contact@adbelrahmanmsid.com Easy way to find out the best channel to use and if anyone is swamping you.

...

-- A: Yes. > Q: Are you sure? >> A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation. >>> Q: Why is top posting frowned upon? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Anton Aylward

12:41

On 22/06/2020 15:58, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

...
Sure, but you get a picture in minutes. All signals from your APs and those of your neighbours, in nice coloured graphics. :-)

Yea, and by no means the least the one that 60dB stronger than my own even if its 250m away! -- A: Yes. > Q: Are you sure? >> A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation. >>> Q: Why is top posting frowned upon? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Anton Aylward

12:38

On 22/06/2020 14:48, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

On Monday, 2020-06-22 at 20:07 +0200, Per Jessen wrote:

...
Carlos E. R. wrote:

...
On Monday, 2020-06-22 at 19:39 +0200, Per Jessen wrote:

...
...
...
I guess it might be worth trying when we upgrade, but lack of signal is not really the problem.

Have you tested yet with the android app?

...
No - iwconfig gives me all the numbers I need I think.

You can not move around the house with that.

Indeed, and you cannot see the comparative channel occupancy and power distribution. As said earlier, moving around the house takes you into and out of the shadow of material that blocks or reflects signals. The while point of domestic (and to a degree, commercial) wifi is that you CAN move around. You can search out the recipe on your phone/tablet/laptop then carry the device to the kitchen to read as you cook, then to the table and add comments on it after eating. Just an example from my own experience. I'm sure people can suggest many more. -- A: Yes. > Q: Are you sure? >> A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation. >>> Q: Why is top posting frowned upon? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Per Jessen

12:50

Anton Aylward wrote:

...

On 22/06/2020 14:48, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...
On Monday, 2020-06-22 at 20:07 +0200, Per Jessen wrote:

...
Carlos E. R. wrote:

...
On Monday, 2020-06-22 at 19:39 +0200, Per Jessen wrote:

...
...
...
I guess it might be worth trying when we upgrade, but lack of signal is not really the problem.

Have you tested yet with the android app?

...
No - iwconfig gives me all the numbers I need I think.

You can not move around the house with that.

Indeed, and you cannot see the comparative channel occupancy and power distribution.

As said earlier, moving around the house takes you into and out of the shadow of material that blocks or reflects signals.

The while point of domestic (and to a degree, commercial) wifi is that you CAN move around.

The wifi devices discussed here are not moving - the raspi does have ethernet, but that would mean cat5 which isn't practical. The nanopi's only have wifi. In two neighbouring buildings I have three access points, in a third building, my neighbour has one AP. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (26.7°C) http://www.dns24.ch/ - free dynamic DNS, made in Switzerland. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

ken

19 Jun 19 Jun

16:16

On 6/19/20 10:12 AM, Anton Aylward wrote:

...

This is a condo townhouse estate; houses are close to each other.

Most people seem to solve their wifi problem by turning up the signal strength! Crazy, but the strongest signal I get is from over 250 meters away and is 12dB stronger than anything else. Everyone is trying to swamp everyone else ..

This kind of situation calls for a different kind of solution. Rather than everyone stomping on everyone else's signals, it would make a lot more sense for people living close by one another to share their access points. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

James Knott

16:49

On 2020-06-19 12:16 PM, ken wrote:

...

This kind of situation calls for a different kind of solution. Rather than everyone stomping on everyone else's signals, it would make a lot more sense for people living close by one another to share their access points.

How would they manage that? The only way that would be even possible would be to use VLANs and multiple SSIDs. Also, consumer grade gear tends to support only a few SSIDs, assuming it does it at all. Then we get to the minor detail of how the connection is made. That would involve running Ethernet cables from all the neighbours to a common point. I live in a condo, which means I have wall & floors/ceilings separating me from my neighbours. In order to run cables, I would have to drill holes through the common element, which I am not allowed to touch. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Anton Aylward

25 Jun 25 Jun

16:03

On 19/06/2020 12:49, James Knott wrote:

...

On 2020-06-19 12:16 PM, ken wrote:

...
This kind of situation calls for a different kind of solution. Rather than everyone stomping on everyone else's signals, it would make a lot more sense for people living close by one another to share their access points.

How would they manage that? The only way that would be even possible would be to use VLANs and multiple SSIDs. Also, consumer grade gear tends to support only a few SSIDs, assuming it does it at all. Then we get to the minor detail of how the connection is made. That would involve running Ethernet cables from all the neighbours to a common point. I live in a condo, which means I have wall & floors/ceilings separating me from my neighbours. In order to run cables, I would have to drill holes through the common element, which I am not allowed to touch.

Then there are the legal implication .... -- A: Yes. > Q: Are you sure? >> A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation. >>> Q: Why is top posting frowned upon? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Carlos E. R.

16:23

On 25/06/2020 18.03, Anton Aylward wrote:

...

On 19/06/2020 12:49, James Knott wrote:

...
On 2020-06-19 12:16 PM, ken wrote:

...
This kind of situation calls for a different kind of solution. Rather than everyone stomping on everyone else's signals, it would make a lot more sense for people living close by one another to share their access points.

How would they manage that? The only way that would be even possible would be to use VLANs and multiple SSIDs. Also, consumer grade gear tends to support only a few SSIDs, assuming it does it at all. Then we get to the minor detail of how the connection is made. That would involve running Ethernet cables from all the neighbours to a common point. I live in a condo, which means I have wall & floors/ceilings separating me from my neighbours. In order to run cables, I would have to drill holes through the common element, which I am not allowed to touch.

(no problem to drill those holes here (Spain), if both neighbours agree (better in writing). But there is no need to do that in relatively modern buildings, as there are already ducts that we could wire in that manner).

...

Then there are the legal implication ....

Technically, it would be perfectly possible for a building to share an internet connection with a bunch of neighbours, sharing the cost and the infra. You would need one VLAN per home, I think, isolating each home from others. The problem would be that the Telco companies hate this (and their local laws protecting them). You can not share a home connection, you would have to hire some other type of connection, if they have it. In fact, there are villages in Spain where all neighbours share a single WiFi setup done by the council, gratis (ah, socialism! ;-p). They do this because the Telcos refuse to do home connections or they ask impossible prices. Possibly, they don't even have fixed phones at the houses. Years ago, someone from Russia commented in this mail list that they had an Ethernet connection network spanning entire blocks on the city. A big intranet, free. For connection to Internet they needed to pay and connect to a dedicated gateway in that LAN. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.1 x86_64 at Telcontar)

James Knott

16:45

On 2020-06-25 12:23 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

...
Then there are the legal implication ....

Technically, it would be perfectly possible for a building to share an internet connection with a bunch of neighbours, sharing the cost and the infra. You would need one VLAN per home, I think, isolating each home from others.

The problem would be that the Telco companies hate this (and their local laws protecting them). You can not share a home connection, you would have to hire some other type of connection, if they have it.

In fact, there are villages in Spain where all neighbours share a single WiFi setup done by the council, gratis (ah, socialism! ;-p). They do this because the Telcos refuse to do home connections or they ask impossible prices. Possibly, they don't even have fixed phones at the houses.

Years ago, someone from Russia commented in this mail list that they had an Ethernet connection network spanning entire blocks on the city. A big intranet, free. For connection to Internet they needed to pay and connect to a dedicated gateway in that LAN.

First off, WiFi isn't known for long distances. It doesn't take much to block it. In fact a friend of mine can't get a signal from one room to the next, because of the wall construction. Reinforced concrete tends to block the signal. Also, in many areas, only utilities are allowed to cross properly lines, roads etc. What may be possible from a strictly technical perspective, might not be from a practical or legal one. As I mentioned, I live in a condo. There are 48 units in my building. That means there will be a lot of people sharing the signal. Depending on location, some may get better signal than others. Also, I'm on one ISP, my next door neighbour might be on another, the next on yet another. Whose ISP do we go with? BTW, I had a bit of an interesting encounter this morning. One of my neighbours said someone had been putting notices on people's door, telling them to turn off their WiFi, for whatever wacko reason. I then used a cell phone app to show her all the WiFi signals I could receive, while standing in front of the building. There were dozens. I also mentioned there were some point to point WiFi links connecting the buildings, for the security cameras. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Carlos E. R.

16:53

On 25/06/2020 18.45, James Knott wrote:

...

On 2020-06-25 12:23 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...
...
Then there are the legal implication ....

Technically, it would be perfectly possible for a building to share an internet connection with a bunch of neighbours, sharing the cost and the infra. You would need one VLAN per home, I think, isolating each home from others.

The problem would be that the Telco companies hate this (and their local laws protecting them). You can not share a home connection, you would have to hire some other type of connection, if they have it.

In fact, there are villages in Spain where all neighbours share a single WiFi setup done by the council, gratis (ah, socialism! ;-p). They do this because the Telcos refuse to do home connections or they ask impossible prices. Possibly, they don't even have fixed phones at the houses.

Years ago, someone from Russia commented in this mail list that they had an Ethernet connection network spanning entire blocks on the city. A big intranet, free. For connection to Internet they needed to pay and connect to a dedicated gateway in that LAN.

First off, WiFi isn't known for long distances. It doesn't take much to block it. In fact a friend of mine can't get a signal from one room to the next, because of the wall construction. Reinforced concrete tends to block the signal. Also, in many areas, only utilities are allowed to cross properly lines, roads etc.

"property" I guess ;-)

...

What may be possible from a strictly technical perspective, might not be from a practical or legal one.

I know.

...

As I mentioned, I live in a condo. There are 48 units in my building. That means there will be a lot of people sharing the signal. Depending on location, some may get better signal than others. Also, I'm on one ISP, my next door neighbour might be on another, the next on yet another. Whose ISP do we go with?

One ISP for the building, that's all, with a commercial contract, not a home contract. Similar to what an hotel does. Some engineer would have to do the planning and setup several APs in the common corridors, with proper frequency and pattern distribution (single SSID). More work for us chaps ;-)

...

BTW, I had a bit of an interesting encounter this morning. One of my neighbours said someone had been putting notices on people's door, telling them to turn off their WiFi, for whatever wacko reason.

:-o (maybe blaming wifi for the virus?)

...

I then used a cell phone app to show her all the WiFi signals I could receive, while standing in front of the building. There were dozens. I also mentioned there were some point to point WiFi links connecting the buildings, for the security cameras.

Of course. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.1 x86_64 at Telcontar)

James Knott

17:26

On 2020-06-25 12:53 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

On 25/06/2020 18.45, James Knott wrote:

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On 2020-06-25 12:23 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:

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Then there are the legal implication ....

Technically, it would be perfectly possible for a building to share an internet connection with a bunch of neighbours, sharing the cost and the infra. You would need one VLAN per home, I think, isolating each home from others.

The problem would be that the Telco companies hate this (and their local laws protecting them). You can not share a home connection, you would have to hire some other type of connection, if they have it.

In fact, there are villages in Spain where all neighbours share a single WiFi setup done by the council, gratis (ah, socialism! ;-p). They do this because the Telcos refuse to do home connections or they ask impossible prices. Possibly, they don't even have fixed phones at the houses.

Years ago, someone from Russia commented in this mail list that they had an Ethernet connection network spanning entire blocks on the city. A big intranet, free. For connection to Internet they needed to pay and connect to a dedicated gateway in that LAN.

First off, WiFi isn't known for long distances. It doesn't take much to block it. In fact a friend of mine can't get a signal from one room to the next, because of the wall construction. Reinforced concrete tends to block the signal. Also, in many areas, only utilities are allowed to cross properly lines, roads etc.

"property" I guess ;-)

Yeah, typo.

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What may be possible from a strictly technical perspective, might not be from a practical or legal one.

I know.

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As I mentioned, I live in a condo. There are 48 units in my building. That means there will be a lot of people sharing the signal. Depending on location, some may get better signal than others. Also, I'm on one ISP, my next door neighbour might be on another, the next on yet another. Whose ISP do we go with?

One ISP for the building, that's all, with a commercial contract, not a home contract. Similar to what an hotel does.

That friend I mentioned, who can't get WiFi to pass between rooms, lives in a condo where they have that setup. He's limited to 10 Mb download, IIRC. I get 75 (actually low 90s) and can get a Gb if I want.

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Some engineer would have to do the planning and setup several APs in the common corridors, with proper frequency and pattern distribution (single SSID). More work for us chaps ;-)

I frequently call my ISP to see what I can do to improve my package. In fact I did that on Monday. One of the changes I got was I went from 500 GB limit to unlimited and my cell phone went from 7 GB to 10. I do this completely independent of what my neighbours do. Also, if there were one company for the building, I might wind up on one which I have vowed to never do business with again (long story that involved a complaint to the government about them) and they're not even allowed to contact me again.

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BTW, I had a bit of an interesting encounter this morning. One of my neighbours said someone had been putting notices on people's door, telling them to turn off their WiFi, for whatever wacko reason.

:-o

(maybe blaming wifi for the virus?)

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I then used a cell phone app to show her all the WiFi signals I could receive, while standing in front of the building. There were dozens. I also mentioned there were some point to point WiFi links connecting the buildings, for the security cameras.

Of course.

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Carlos E. R.

17:33

On 25/06/2020 19.26, James Knott wrote:

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On 2020-06-25 12:53 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:

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On 25/06/2020 18.45, James Knott wrote:

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On 2020-06-25 12:23 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:

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What may be possible from a strictly technical perspective, might not be from a practical or legal one.

I know.

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As I mentioned, I live in a condo. There are 48 units in my building. That means there will be a lot of people sharing the signal. Depending on location, some may get better signal than others. Also, I'm on one ISP, my next door neighbour might be on another, the next on yet another. Whose ISP do we go with?

One ISP for the building, that's all, with a commercial contract, not a home contract. Similar to what an hotel does.

That friend I mentioned, who can't get WiFi to pass between rooms, lives in a condo where they have that setup. He's limited to 10 Mb download, IIRC. I get 75 (actually low 90s) and can get a Gb if I want.

In such a place, a communal setup would not be practical, unless they also created one access point per home.

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Some engineer would have to do the planning and setup several APs in the common corridors, with proper frequency and pattern distribution (single SSID). More work for us chaps ;-)

I frequently call my ISP to see what I can do to improve my package. In fact I did that on Monday. One of the changes I got was I went from 500 GB limit to unlimited and my cell phone went from 7 GB to 10. I do this completely independent of what my neighbours do. Also, if there were one company for the building, I might wind up on one which I have vowed to never do business with again (long story that involved a complaint to the government about them) and they're not even allowed to contact me again.

Sure. But it would not be you who would hold the contract, but the building owner (condo) or the association of owners (Spain). And of course, would not include the mobile, probably not the cable TV. Only internet. Like an hotel. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.1 x86_64 at Telcontar)

James Knott

17:46

On 2020-06-25 01:33 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:

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That friend I mentioned, who can't get WiFi to pass between rooms, lives in a condo where they have that setup. He's limited to 10 Mb download, IIRC. I get 75 (actually low 90s) and can get a Gb if I want.

In such a place, a communal setup would not be practical, unless they also created one access point per home. I thought the point made a while back was to get away from that by going with a single provider.

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Sure. But it would not be you who would hold the contract, but the building owner (condo) or the association of owners (Spain). And of course, would not include the mobile, probably not the cable TV. Only internet.

Actually, both the company I have and the one I don't want to do any business with provide Internet, TV, phone and cell phone. The Internet, TV and phone are often bundled, with the cell phone a separate service. There are several apartment or condo buildings around here, where one company has exclusive rights for cabled connections. Fortunately, mine was built before any company offered everything. Back then one company (the one I deal with) offered cable TV and another (the one I refuse to deal with) provided phone. Back in those days, the ISPs were dial up. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Carlos E. R.

20:24

On 25/06/2020 19.46, James Knott wrote:

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On 2020-06-25 01:33 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:

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That friend I mentioned, who can't get WiFi to pass between rooms, lives in a condo where they have that setup. He's limited to 10 Mb download, IIRC. I get 75 (actually low 90s) and can get a Gb if I want.

In such a place, a communal setup would not be practical, unless they also created one access point per home. I thought the point made a while back was to get away from that by going with a single provider.

Can be done with a single communal provider and a controlled AP per home (theoretically). The law is another thing. This is in the case that the walls block the transmissions, so you need more APs. But designed and controlled by an engineer, not by the people living there, to minimize interference.

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Sure. But it would not be you who would hold the contract, but the building owner (condo) or the association of owners (Spain). And of course, would not include the mobile, probably not the cable TV. Only internet.

Actually, both the company I have and the one I don't want to do any business with provide Internet, TV, phone and cell phone. The Internet, TV and phone are often bundled, with the cell phone a separate service. There are several apartment or condo buildings around here, where one company has exclusive rights for cabled connections. Fortunately, mine was built before any company offered everything. Back then one company (the one I deal with) offered cable TV and another (the one I refuse to deal with) provided phone. Back in those days, the ISPs were dial up.

The situation in Spain is different: by law, apartment buildings must give access to any ISP that wants it. Well, the law is more detailed, but basically any home has several choices. During construction, ducts must be placed to simplify this. It also applies to existing buildings, within the limitations of the building. The purpose of the law is to facilitate competition between providers. For a communal setup the owner would have to do some type of business contract, and those can be internet only, I understand. Anyway, we do not have "condos", we have apartment buildings with, in theory, one full owner per apartment, and an owner association for the communal parts, like the stairs. As an example, you can buy two apartments and connect them inside with doors, even internal stairs. But we are going offtopic ;-) -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.1 x86_64 at Telcontar)

Per Jessen

17:04

Carlos E. R. wrote:

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Technically, it would be perfectly possible for a building to share an internet connection with a bunch of neighbours, sharing the cost and the infra. You would need one VLAN per home, I think, isolating each home from others.

Not technically necessary, but for privacy.

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The problem would be that the Telco companies hate this (and their local laws protecting them). You can not share a home connection, you would have to hire some other type of connection, if they have it.

I think that is the least of the issues. Many countries have telecommunications legislation that simply forbid the sharing of a connection. For instance, it is a problem for law enforcement: "someone did illegal downloads. Who was it - household A or household B?"

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In fact, there are villages in Spain where all neighbours share a single WiFi setup done by the council, gratis (ah, socialism! ;-p). They do this because the Telcos refuse to do home connections or they ask impossible prices. Possibly, they don't even have fixed phones at the houses.

s/socialism/poorly instrumented telco liberalisation/ -- Per Jessen, Zürich (29.2°C) http://www.hostsuisse.com/ - dedicated server rental in Switzerland. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Carlos E. R.

17:17

On 25/06/2020 19.04, Per Jessen wrote:

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Carlos E. R. wrote:

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Technically, it would be perfectly possible for a building to share an internet connection with a bunch of neighbours, sharing the cost and the infra. You would need one VLAN per home, I think, isolating each home from others.

Not technically necessary, but for privacy.

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The problem would be that the Telco companies hate this (and their local laws protecting them). You can not share a home connection, you would have to hire some other type of connection, if they have it.

I think that is the least of the issues. Many countries have telecommunications legislation that simply forbid the sharing of a connection. For instance, it is a problem for law enforcement:

"someone did illegal downloads. Who was it - household A or household B?"

In Spain people have won in court demanding the accuser to show proof of what person did the download. It is not enough to point at the router.

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In fact, there are villages in Spain where all neighbours share a single WiFi setup done by the council, gratis (ah, socialism! ;-p). They do this because the Telcos refuse to do home connections or they ask impossible prices. Possibly, they don't even have fixed phones at the houses.

s/socialism/poorly instrumented telco liberalisation/

It is simply not economical for the telco to provide some phones at a village in the middle of nowhere. The council, on the other hand, has the oomph to buy one large enough connection at whatever cost, then share it. There were legal problems initially, but I think they found a way. There is a fund from the EU for it. https://cincodias.elpais.com/cincodias/2019/09/18/companias/1568818711_54073... Name "WiFi4EU". https://wifi4eu.ec.europa.eu/#/home No wikipedia article :-? -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.1 x86_64 at Telcontar)

Per Jessen

17:24

Carlos E. R. wrote:

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In fact, there are villages in Spain where all neighbours share a single WiFi setup done by the council, gratis (ah, socialism! ;-p). They do this because the Telcos refuse to do home connections or they ask impossible prices. Possibly, they don't even have fixed phones at the houses.

s/socialism/poorly instrumented telco liberalisation/

It is simply not economical for the telco to provide some phones at a village in the middle of nowhere.

I know - that is why it would have been important to have a clause that obligated the national incumbent telco to provide a minimum of connectivity, everywhere. Anyway, way offtopic. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (28.4°C) http://www.dns24.ch/ - free dynamic DNS, made in Switzerland. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Rodney Baker

19 Jun 19 Jun