Hi I got a nice offer from a companty, and havent even seen that card... I think I need to go there when it opens again, and see which chip it has. Jaska. Viestissä Lauantai 22. Joulukuuta 2001 23:02, Jon Pennington kirjoitti:

On Sat, 2001-12-22 at 04:38, Jaakko Tamminen wrote:

...

Does anyone know if Epox EP-DR02P3 IDE-RAID is supported under 7.2?

WHAT IS THE CHIPSET?

Given the incredible popularity of IDE RAID cards, and the even *more* incredible selection of vendors, I doubt that of the 2000 or so regular subscribers to this list that somebody has that *exact* model installed. On the other hand, I'm *quite* sure that somebody has tried to install an IDE RAID card with that chipset, if we only knew which one it was. The EPoX-USA site doesn't seem to have that model listed, so *I* can't find more information. It's your turn to give a little bit, instead of begging us for information we can't provide or procure.

From your previous post, I bet this is a Promise chipset, about which there are some very clear READMEs available on the SuSE web site, the SuSE FTP site, and the SuSE CD-ROMs. Get off your lazy butt and do a little research for crying out loud. It took more time for you to open your mail client, compose this message, spool it, and send it, than it would have to simply get the information we need to go on.

On Sat, 2001-12-22 at 15:49, Anders Johansson wrote:

According to Epox web site at

http://www.epox.nl/english/products/motherboard/ep-dro2p3.htm

the card is supported but not with hardware RAID.

Thank you, Anders, for the link. It appears that for the sake of good ol' American-style Intellectual Property (which is even more viril than the GPL), EPoX has covered the chips with stickers. I think this information about using them as RAID devices is out of date, if my wires aren't crossed (which they often are). If push came to shove, you could set up the controller as a regular IDE device, not a hardware RAID device, and use the Linux kernel to configure software RAID with a small performance hit. Let's see what we can do about the hardware side first, though. Using `make menuconfig` in a vanilla linux-2.4.17 source tree (this should work with Hubert's tree as well), enable the stuff below. This is not a complete configuration, mind you, but it should cover what's necessary to make stuff work: Code maturity level options ---> [*] Prompt for development and/or incomplete code/drivers # Keep in mind that this is all to be considered experimental. Don't # cry to us if your entire /usr filesystem gets hosed because of an # error from using the IDE-RAID card. Multi-device support (RAID and LVM) ---> [*] Multiple devices driver support (RAID and LVM) <*> RAID support <*> Linear (append) mode <*> RAID-0 (striping) mode <*> RAID-1 (mirroring) mode <*> RAID-4/RAID-5 mode <*> Multipath I/O support <*> Logical volume manager (LVM) support # This is where RAID business get's taken care of. If you're not # mounting / from these devices (I wouldn't), you can make them as # modules. ATA/IDE/MFM/RLL Support ---> IDE, ATA, and ATAPI Block devices ---> <*> Enhanced IDE/MFM/RLL disk/cdrom/tape/floppy support <*> Include IDE/ATA-2 DISK support [*] Generic PCI IDE chipset support [*] Generic PCI bus-master DMA support [*] Boot off-board chipsets first support # This option ^ Enables booting from the IDE-RAID first, but is not # necessary. [*] Use PCI DMA by default when available [*] HPT366 chipset support [*] PROMISE PDC202{46|62|65|67|68} support [*] Special UDMA Feature [*] Special FastTrak Feature # These enable the core chips of the most common IDE-RAID cards. # Don't forget to build the drivers for your motherboard ATA # controller! <*> Support for IDE Raid controllers <*> Support Promise software RAID (Fasttrak(tm)) <*> Highpoint 370 software RAID # This is where IDE-RAID business get's taken care of. Again, if # you're not mounting / from these devices (I wouldn't), you can make # them as modules to reduce kernel size. There's more information in linux/Documentation/ide.txt and other places on the Web, but this is a start. You will have much documentation to read if you plan to make a successful run with this card. If I were you, I'd use lots of partitions on the array, putting significant pieces of the filesystem (/usr, /opt, /home, and so forth) on their own partitions. KEEP REGULAR BACKUPS. I'd keep / (which also means /bin, /sbin, /etc, and others) on a normal disk if I were you, though. Let's figure out what chipset that is so we can trim this down even further...somebody (like you, Jaakko) call/email EPoX. -- -=|JP|=- Need a good geek? I'm unemployed! '01 B15 SE/PP | http://www.xanga.com/cowboydren/ | < '95 SL2 Auto | cowboydren @ yahoo . com | _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

On Saturday 22 December 2001 23.38, Jon Pennington wrote:

Let's figure out what chipset that is so we can trim this down even further...somebody (like you, Jaakko) call/email EPoX.

I found an Italian page at http://www.hwmaniac.com/news/archivio/arc-20010609.shtml that said it was a HighPoint HPT370, and a polish site at http://artur_m.home.staszic.waw.pl/news.html that seems to call it a Promise HPT370 :) //Anders

On Saturday 22 December 2001 23.56, Jon Pennington wrote:

You have some advanced configuration to wade through, and you should not be in a hurry when you get around to installing it. While I was reading the documents, I found some neat stuff for improving boot times and so forth, so this could be a lot of fun! It may be a long Winter, but it's looking pretty good right now. :)

Shame it's only software RAID though. You would think they'd write drivers for a server/workstation OS like linux to use a server/workstation feature like RAID. The mantel kernels have this compiled as a module by default btw, so I think you're OK with a default SuSE install. Just remember to put hptraid in initrd if you're going to be booting from the RAIDed drives. //Anders

Hi I've actually been thinking to get either 3ware or Adaptec, but they are so hard to find here. I see that SuSE has direct support for them, so no installation problems, just to "throw it in"... Jaska. Viestissä Sunnuntai 23. Joulukuuta 2001 01:16, Jon Pennington kirjoitti:

On Sat, 2001-12-22 at 17:02, Anders Johansson wrote:

...

Shame it's only software RAID though. You would think they'd write drivers for a server/workstation OS like linux to use a server/workstation feature like RAID.

Even the Windows drivers are really only software; the driver does the work instead of the kernel, though, so you don't have to use the kernel's software RAID functions to do the work. There is a slight performance improvement by using the driver. StorageReview.com had an article about this with Windows2000 (or maybe it was Tom's). There are only two true ATA RAID brands, 3ware and Adaptec, and their products are a LOT more expensive than this HPT card.

...

The mantel kernels have this compiled as a module by default btw, so I think you're OK with a default SuSE install.

Neat! :)

Hi So it seems that Epox EP-DR02P3 is actually build with HPT-370 chip.. I had abit-K7 RAID motherboard with 370-chip, and was able to tweak it to work under 7.2.. but it was quite a job to make it, because the drivers were binary-only, and for older kernels. And the situation remains.. They have support for 7.1 (kernels 2.2.18 and 2.4.0-4GB) only.. So Hightpoint-tech is NOT listening for our requirements to get either an update, or source for the module. For RH they support 7.1, and that seems to have binary-drivers for kernels 2.2.14-5, 2.2.16-22 and 2.4.2-2. For turbo-linux it supports kernels 2.2.13-18 and 2.2.18smp. For caldera the support exist for kernel 2.2.14. Hightpoint-tech is a bad-bad company in my eyes... Actually here in Finland many covernement organisations, and several cities has chosen Linux.. And still there is a LOT of commercial web-pages selling stuff, and they work only with weird-M$ kind-of-java or whatever.. but that's another story. Jaska. Viestissä Sunnuntai 23. Joulukuuta 2001 00:51, Anders Johansson kirjoitti:

On Saturday 22 December 2001 23.38, Jon Pennington wrote:

...

Let's figure out what chipset that is so we can trim this down even further...somebody (like you, Jaakko) call/email EPoX.

I found an Italian page at

http://www.hwmaniac.com/news/archivio/arc-20010609.shtml

that said it was a HighPoint HPT370, and a polish site at

http://artur_m.home.staszic.waw.pl/news.html

that seems to call it a Promise HPT370 :)

//Anders

Hi

They're not as bad as nVidia. What kind of video card are *you* running? ;)

Matrox G450 Dual-Head Jaska.

On Sat, 2001-12-22 at 17:27, Anders Johansson wrote:

Far better than the OSI compliant drivers you get with Matrox.

I disagree. The G450 is not comparable to any nVidia product; the G450 is meant for graphics and video professionals, the GeForce family is primarily for gamers and secondarily for 3D professionals, an arena where nVidia is barely dipping it's toes in the pool. Check out the scores on a 3DLabs Wildcat doing real CAD functions compared to a Quadra2 (or 3, whatever they're at these days), and you'll see what I mean.

nvidia is to my knowledge the only company that brings out drivers for linux in parallell with their windows drivers, and with equal or better performance.

I've not seen recent benchmarks on the G450, so I can't argue with that, but history has proven you right on this matter. However, the G450, last I checked, was still the fastest 2D card available for Linux, and it *happens* to do 3D instructions at an acceptable level.

Plus they have stated that the reason they're not OpenSourcing their work is that they have 3rd party license issues.

Bullshit. Licenses to whom? The OpenGL consortium? Rambus? They're just scared that somebody can reverse-engineer their hardware from the drivers faster than they can improve thier hardware, which is a mathematical improbability. The G450 and Radeon family support almost all features in XFree86 respectively, and I can't name any functions that require proprietary software to do them.

projects have died (I read that the DRI team has lost its funding. Will Matrox et al. have 3D support in future?)

They've lost funding because there aren't any new 3D chips being released, and thus no contracts for drivers for new products. When Matrox or ATI introduce a new chip that they *can't* support internally, the contracts will return. These are slim times, but it's not as bad as it appears. Matrox and ATI have done enough internal work on DRI drivers that they may not even need Precision Insight in the future; the framework for generic drivers is quite mature, and each of those companies has at least expressed a concern for OSI drivers. Without Matrox' internal driver team, the DRI for G450 would still require HALlib.a, a non-free resource. Now, it's not necessary. They even have a nice Windows-like tool for configuring their more advanced features on modern cards.

Keep up the good work, nvidia. It is appreciated.

I will not tell you to get rid of your card; one must use the products that one likes. I will say, however, that I'm not likely to buy an nVidia product until they get their heads out of their respective asses. Being able to play 3D video games faster than Jonny Redmond is about as important to me as mastering the art of basketweaving. This is mostly subjective...to each his own. :) -- -=|JP|=- Need a good geek? I'm unemployed! '01 B15 SE/PP | http://www.xanga.com/cowboydren/ | < '95 SL2 Auto | cowboydren @ yahoo . com | _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

On Sat, 2001-12-22 at 18:56, Anders Johansson wrote:

Well, you missed my point. I wasn't doing a comparison with other cards in actual performance, just a reflection on how well things are supported compared to the windows drivers available.

Understood. Except for my Wildcat benchmarks, I hadn't really considered Windows in this discussion.

Others I have spoken to have had similar experiences. Newer hardware is reportedly better supported.

Indeed. But I'm not talking about Windows much...

And about 3DLabs Wildcat, where are the drivers?

You're right, only XiG has Linux/X11 drivers at this point. I wasn't trying to use them as an example of an OSI-aware company, just that nVidia isn't the right choice for professional 3D graphics.

SGI.

I find it *very* hard to believe that nVidia has incorporated SGI IP in *software* that SGI is unwilling to part with under OSI-approved terms. Most carefully-gaurded IP of this nature is done in the hardware, and the drivers would do little to expose nVidia's or SGI's belly to rutheless (but slow) reverse-engineering experts. Remember the suits and counter-suits that 3Dfx and nVidia lobbed at each other shortly before 3Dfx' demise? It was over IP stolen/infringed upon years ago, not current technologies.

Precision Insight was bought by VA in early 2000 and doesn't exist as a solo company anymore AFAICT

The fact that PI is no longer needed is a good sign, though sad for Free Software developers looking for a paycheck. PI was indeed purchased by VA, but the PI developers still referred to themselves as PI, right up to the point where XFree86 4.1 integrated DRI completely into the main tree, and I just picked up the habit. :) If the need arises for more DRI programmers, they are available... -- -=|JP|=- Need a good geek? I'm unemployed! '01 B15 SE/PP | http://www.xanga.com/cowboydren/ | < '95 SL2 Auto | cowboydren @ yahoo . com | _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

On Sat, 2001-12-22 at 21:56, Karol Pietrzak wrote:

The NVidia GeForce3 Ti200 seems to be a good bet (probably going for the Hercules brand to be more specific).

Sounds like a solid choice, but you won't catch me buying one. :)

What would be a good ATI card to get in that same price range?

Radeon 8500s start at $175US: http://www.pricewatch.com/1/37/4187-1.htm

Any benchmarks I could feast on?

Try Tom's or AnandTech: http://www.tomshardware.com/ http://www.anandtech.com/ Both of these guys do regular reviews on the best and the brightest, and I'm sure you can look at any kind of benchmark you like, up, down, or sideways at either of these sites. Remember that at modern CPU and GPU speeds, you won't notice the difference between playing Q3 at 75FPS or 100FPS. Perception doesn't start to get clear until you get down to the 50-60 FPS range in my experience. Granted, this is highly subjective.

Any features and / or glaring facts that I should know before buying this ATI card (I presume in the Radeon line)?

The Radeon has vastly superior 2D characteristics, namely text clarity, in my experience. When paired with a high-quality, aperature-grille or LCD display, a Radeon is much easier on the eyes than a GeForce. This may have changed a little with th TI series, but it's not likely. nVidia improves 2D quality about like everybody else improves 3D speed; incrementally, and in small increments. The Riva128 had AWFUL 2D clarity, and nVidia has been behind ever since. :) Also, if you went with a Radeon, you wouldn't have to download any software from ATI or nVidia to get it running. :) Um, early DRI releases had problems with non-Intel northbridges, especially VIA since the SiS chipsets weren't readily available at the time for testing. If you have an Intel-based motherboard, you should have Zero problems, but I'm pretty sure they sorted out the VIA/AMD/SiS issues, too. It's your call, Noodlez. -- -=|JP|=- Need a good geek? I'm unemployed! '01 B15 SE/PP | http://www.xanga.com/cowboydren/ | < '95 SL2 Auto | cowboydren @ yahoo . com | _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com