On 09/15/2012 09:40 PM, Per Jessen wrote:

Ed Greshko wrote:

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On 09/15/2012 08:08 PM, Per Jessen wrote:

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AFAICT, this was introduced in 12.2 - what is the exact purpose and can I get rid of it?

man systemd-journald Been there already, but it doesn't answer either of my questions.

It is basically rsyslog for systemd. Its helpmate, journalctl is used to query the logs. Can be useful for debugging systemd problems. If you don't want to log, you should be able to disable the service. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 09/15/2012 04:49 PM, Per Jessen wrote:

Ed Greshko wrote:

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It is basically rsyslog for systemd. Its helpmate, journalctl is used to query the logs. Can be useful for debugging systemd problems.

If you don't want to log, you should be able to disable the service.

I do want to log, but I've looked at the journal already and didn't see anything that wasn't already in /var/log/messages, /var/log/mail etc. Seems like a duplication of effort and a waste of space in /var/log/journal. (which afaict can just be deleted).

have you looked at /etc/systemd/system.conf or one of the other files to do some tweaking Togan -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 09/15/2012 04:58 PM, Per Jessen wrote:

Togan Muftuoglu wrote:

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On 09/15/2012 04:49 PM, Per Jessen wrote:

...

Ed Greshko wrote:

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It is basically rsyslog for systemd. Its helpmate, journalctl is used to query the logs. Can be useful for debugging systemd problems.

If you don't want to log, you should be able to disable the service.

I do want to log, but I've looked at the journal already and didn't see anything that wasn't already in /var/log/messages, /var/log/mail etc. Seems like a duplication of effort and a waste of space in /var/log/journal. (which afaict can just be deleted).

have you looked at /etc/systemd/system.conf or one of the other files to do some tweaking

Not all of them no, but I did glance over the journald config file. There's stuff to limit the size and logging rate controls, but there was no "Enable=Yes" setting :-)

then there is the mask option in man systemctl maybe that is what you want mask [NAME...] Mask one or more unit files, as specified on the command line. This will link these units to /dev/null, making it impossible to start them. This is a stronger version of disable, since it prohibits all kinds of activation of the unit, including manual activation. Use this option with care. Togan -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Cristian Rodríguez wrote:

El 15/09/12 11:58, Per Jessen escribió:

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Not all of them no, but I did glance over the journald config file. There's stuff to limit the size and logging rate controls, but there was no "Enable=Yes" setting :-)

It is simple, JUst use SystemMaxUse=nM , where n is an integer used to set the number of megabytes that the journal can use on disk.

However it is smart-ass and even if you dont use this limit, it will not use more than 10% of the size of the filesystem.

Thanks - I'm surprised there is no way of disabling it when it brings me absolutely nothing that I want (the current situation). In openSUSE I think we should have omitted /var/log/journal, but it is easily deleted of course. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (12.9°C) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Christofer C. Bell wrote:

On Sun, Sep 16, 2012 at 3:22 AM, Per Jessen wrote:

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Thanks - I'm surprised there is no way of disabling it when it brings me absolutely nothing that I want (the current situation). In openSUSE I think we should have omitted /var/log/journal, but it is easily deleted of course.

Without it, systemd has no way to log anything. If you're going to get rid of journald, you may consider booting your system with sysvinit (deprecated) and eschewing systemd entirely (which you won't be able to do for much longer).

Hmm, how did systemd manage to log anything in openSUSE 12.1 when there was no journald thingie? Also, it doesn't seem to journal anything that isn't already logged to syslog? -- Per Jessen, Zürich (14.4°C) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 09/16/2012 11:37 AM, Christofer C. Bell wrote:

On Sun, Sep 16, 2012 at 3:22 AM, Per Jessen wrote:

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Thanks - I'm surprised there is no way of disabling it when it brings me absolutely nothing that I want (the current situation). In openSUSE I think we should have omitted /var/log/journal, but it is easily deleted of course.

Without it, systemd has no way to log anything. If you're going to get rid of journald, you may consider booting your system with sysvinit (deprecated) and eschewing systemd entirely (which you won't be able to do for much longer).

systemd should work without the journal, Andreas -- Andreas Jaeger aj@{suse.com,opensuse.org} Twitter/Identica: jaegerandi SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, Maxfeldstr. 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany GF: Jeff Hawn,Jennifer Guild,Felix Imendörffer,HRB16746 (AG Nürnberg) GPG fingerprint = 93A3 365E CE47 B889 DF7F FED1 389A 563C C272 A126 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

El 16/09/12 05:22, Per Jessen escribió:

Thanks - I'm surprised there is no way of disabling it

syslog implementations "hook" over it.. using /run/systemd/journal/syslog socket ... systemd has centralized logging in the journal, nothing else can listen on the system logger anymore. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

El 17/09/12 13:36, Per Jessen escribió:

Wow. That's is pretty invasive stuff I have to say. Well, I guess it's fine as long as the functionality doesn't change for the end user. Do you happen to know if syslog-ng and rsyslog both work with this?

Yes, all shipped syslog implementations read from the data exported by systemd. This will probably remain in place for a very long time, though in the nearish future we may not install a syslog implementation by default. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On Mon, Sep 17, 2012 at 1:23 PM, Per Jessen wrote:

Cristian Rodríguez wrote:

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Yes, all shipped syslog implementations read from the data exported by systemd.

This will probably remain in place for a very long time, though in the nearish future we may not install a syslog implementation by default.

Why wouldn't we? I would strongly oppose that change. I don't know about everybody else, but I for one do not need yet another version of the syslog config file.

I absolutely understand your frustration, but I must say that Linux distributions (including openSUSE) are not intended to be a reference implementation of 1990s UNIX. The reason Linux has become so popular in the enterprise (and distributions like SUSE Linux Enterprise Server and Red Hat Enterprise Linux are able to thrive and take marketshare) is because the Linux is in a constant state of evolution. That evolution is taking us in the direction of systemd. It's a direction I strongly support towards a goal I wish could come even faster (the widespread adoption of systemd). The elimination of the syslog service would be to further that goal and reduce the very redundancy you feel comes with having both a syslog service and systemd's journal. -- Chris -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Cristian Rodríguez wrote:

El 17/09/12 15:23, Per Jessen escribió:

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Why wouldn't we? I would strongly oppose that change. I don't know about everybody else, but I for one do not need yet another version of the syslog config file.

If you read what I actually wrote... I said "not installing a syslog implementation by default" that **does not mean** syslog will go away or that we will remove the packages and supporting tools.

Okay, I (mis)read what you write to mean that systemd would be replacing syslog-ng/rsyslog functionality. If it does not, I don't see a reason to stop including syslog by default? -- Per Jessen, Zürich (12.9°C) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 09/19/2012 08:02 AM, Rajko wrote:

On Tue, 18 Sep 2012 07:45:01 +0200 Per Jessen wrote:

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Okay, I (mis)read what you write to mean that systemd would be replacing syslog-ng/rsyslog functionality. If it does not, I don't see a reason to stop including syslog by default?

A systemd's Journal is replacing syslog functionality. https://docs.google.com/document/pub?id=1IC9yOXj7j6cdLLxWEBAGRL6wl97tFxgjLUE...

As syslog is needed only on systems that will continue using it for various reasons until it will be replaced, it can and should be removed from default installation, which is essentially desktop.

And how did you come to the idea that a default install is a desktop ? Togan -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Christofer C. Bell wrote:

On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 2:30 AM, Togan Muftuoglu wrote:

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On 09/19/2012 08:02 AM, Rajko wrote:

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On Tue, 18 Sep 2012 07:45:01 +0200 Per Jessen wrote:

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Okay, I (mis)read what you write to mean that systemd would be replacing syslog-ng/rsyslog functionality. If it does not, I don't see a reason to stop including syslog by default?

A systemd's Journal is replacing syslog functionality.

https://docs.google.com/document/pub?id=1IC9yOXj7j6cdLLxWEBAGRL6wl97tFxgjLUE...

...

As syslog is needed only on systems that will continue using it for various reasons until it will be replaced, it can and should be removed from default installation, which is essentially desktop.

And how did you come to the idea that a default install is a desktop ?

The default install (what you get if you click "Yes" a dozen times in a row after booting the DVD) is a desktop. It's full of desktop productivity applications, a desktop environment, and doesn't run any services (not even sshd, as that's a non-default install option -- you have to change it yourself).

That may not be how *you* (and many others) install it, but if you're deviating from the "click yes over and over until it's done" path, then you're not installing as per the provided defaults. The *default* installation is clearly a desktop and isn't useful for anything other than *being* a desktop until you install other, non-default, software.

Bit of silly discussion, imho - what you actually get per default depends a lot on the machine and how you install. When I install and choose all the defaults, I still don't get X configured :-) -- Per Jessen, Zürich (12.4°C) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Rajko wrote:

On Wed, 19 Sep 2012 11:35:13 +0200 Per Jessen wrote:

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Bit of silly discussion, imho - what you actually get per default depends a lot on the machine and how you install. When I install and choose all the defaults, I still don't get X configured :-)

You use options, not defaults. Defaults are as Christofer explained, and if don't get X configured then it is a bug :)

When you install the NET iso over ssh, X isn't configured. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (13.3°C) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Rajko wrote:

On Wed, 19 Sep 2012 15:44:37 +0200 Per Jessen wrote:

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When you install the NET iso over ssh, X isn't configured.

I didn't perform installation using NET iso for a long time, but last time I did, it was like: * download iso, * burn it on a CD, * drop CD in a tray, * reboot computer, * choose boot media, (vendor and model specific) * tell the repository URL, * and then you can tell yes all the way trough. If all is good and network doesn't fail, the result is desktop installation.

Not when you install over ssh. Anyway, like I've already said, it's a silly/pointless discussion as we don't aim for such a narrow default use-case. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (13.8°C) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

El 19/09/12 08:50, Anton Aylward escribió:

In corporate settings that i work in it is important for a variety of reasons that workstations report various things to the "central syslog". Those reasons include regulatory compliance, not least of all to do with login and access.

There will be git-like push/pull network protocol for that, but it has not been implemented yet. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On Wednesday 19 September 2012, Cristian Rodríguez wrote:

El 19/09/12 08:50, Anton Aylward escribió:

...

In corporate settings that i work in it is important for a variety of reasons that workstations report various things to the "central syslog". Those reasons include regulatory compliance, not least of all to do with login and access.

There will be git-like push/pull network protocol for that, but it has not been implemented yet.

git-like means it does not work in real time? BTW any stupid or coffee machine or toaster is able to log to syslog since 20 years. That's why it's quasi standard to have a centralized syslog in any corporate environment. Inventing another protocol which works on linux boxes only and only if systemd is running is just waste of time. If systemd needs the journal internally, local-only for whatever reason - fine - but replacing syslog is IMO impossible. cu, Rudi -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On Thursday 20 September 2012, Christofer C. Bell wrote:

On Thu, Sep 20, 2012 at 5:38 AM, Ruediger Meier wrote:

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On Wednesday 19 September 2012, Cristian Rodríguez wrote:

...

El 19/09/12 08:50, Anton Aylward escribió:

...

In corporate settings that i work in it is important for a variety of reasons that workstations report various things to the "central syslog". Those reasons include regulatory compliance, not least of all to do with login and access.

There will be git-like push/pull network protocol for that, but it has not been implemented yet.

git-like means it does not work in real time?

BTW any stupid or coffee machine or toaster is able to log to syslog since 20 years. That's why it's quasi standard to have a centralized syslog in any corporate environment. Inventing another protocol which works on linux boxes only and only if systemd is running is just waste of time.

If systemd needs the journal internally, local-only for whatever reason - fine - but replacing syslog is IMO impossible.

journald is able to receive messages from syslog over the network.

https://docs.google.com/document/pub?id=1IC9yOXj7j6cdLLxWEBAGRL6wl97t FxgjLUEHIX3MSTs&pli=1

Could you point me to the exact lines where you've read this ...? BTW that text is really funny. First they say "The syslog network protocol is very simple, but also very limited" to have another minus point on the syslog side, Then they give us journald without network support at all and try to sell us "copying files between hosts" as network support. cu, Rudi -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On Thursday 20 September 2012, Christofer C. Bell wrote:

On Thu, Sep 20, 2012 at 9:27 AM, Ruediger Meier wrote:

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On Thursday 20 September 2012, Christofer C. Bell wrote:

...

On Thu, Sep 20, 2012 at 5:38 AM, Ruediger Meier

wrote:

...

...

On Wednesday 19 September 2012, Cristian Rodríguez wrote:

...

El 19/09/12 08:50, Anton Aylward escribió:

...

In corporate settings that i work in it is important for a variety of reasons that workstations report various things to the "central syslog". Those reasons include regulatory compliance, not least of all to do with login and access.

There will be git-like push/pull network protocol for that, but it has not been implemented yet.

git-like means it does not work in real time?

BTW any stupid or coffee machine or toaster is able to log to syslog since 20 years. That's why it's quasi standard to have a centralized syslog in any corporate environment. Inventing another protocol which works on linux boxes only and only if systemd is running is just waste of time.

If systemd needs the journal internally, local-only for whatever reason - fine - but replacing syslog is IMO impossible.

journald is able to receive messages from syslog over the network.

https://docs.google.com/document/pub?id=1IC9yOXj7j6cdLLxWEBAGRL6wl 97t FxgjLUEHIX3MSTs&pli=1

Could you point me to the exact lines where you've read this ...?

BTW that text is really funny. First they say "The syslog network protocol is very simple, but also very limited" to have another minus point on the syslog side, Then they give us journald without network support at all and try to sell us "copying files between hosts" as network support.

Yes, of course, it's this part here:

"One of the core ideas of the journal is to unify the various logging technologies we currently have. As such it should be useful as replacement for wtmp, early boot loggers and even the audit logging backend. Data can be generated from a variety of sources: kernel messages generated with printk(), userspace messages generated with syslog(3), userspace entries using the native API, coredumps via /proc/proc/sys/kernel/core_pattern and more."

I still can't see where you have read that "journald is able to receive messages from syslog _over_the_network".

-- Chris

-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On Thu, Sep 20, 2012 at 10:12 AM, Ruediger Meier wrote:

On Thursday 20 September 2012, Christofer C. Bell wrote:

...

On Thu, Sep 20, 2012 at 9:27 AM, Ruediger Meier wrote:

...

On Thursday 20 September 2012, Christofer C. Bell wrote:

...

On Thu, Sep 20, 2012 at 5:38 AM, Ruediger Meier

wrote:

...

...

On Wednesday 19 September 2012, Cristian Rodríguez wrote:

...

El 19/09/12 08:50, Anton Aylward escribió: > In corporate settings that i work in it is important for a > variety of reasons that workstations report various things to > the "central syslog". Those reasons include regulatory > compliance, not least of all to do with login and access.

There will be git-like push/pull network protocol for that, but it has not been implemented yet.

git-like means it does not work in real time?

BTW any stupid or coffee machine or toaster is able to log to syslog since 20 years. That's why it's quasi standard to have a centralized syslog in any corporate environment. Inventing another protocol which works on linux boxes only and only if systemd is running is just waste of time.

If systemd needs the journal internally, local-only for whatever reason - fine - but replacing syslog is IMO impossible.

journald is able to receive messages from syslog over the network.

https://docs.google.com/document/pub?id=1IC9yOXj7j6cdLLxWEBAGRL6wl 97t FxgjLUEHIX3MSTs&pli=1

Could you point me to the exact lines where you've read this ...?

BTW that text is really funny. First they say "The syslog network protocol is very simple, but also very limited" to have another minus point on the syslog side, Then they give us journald without network support at all and try to sell us "copying files between hosts" as network support.

Yes, of course, it's this part here:

"One of the core ideas of the journal is to unify the various logging technologies we currently have. As such it should be useful as replacement for wtmp, early boot loggers and even the audit logging backend. Data can be generated from a variety of sources: kernel messages generated with printk(), userspace messages generated with syslog(3), userspace entries using the native API, coredumps via /proc/proc/sys/kernel/core_pattern and more."

I still can't see where you have read that "journald is able to receive messages from syslog _over_the_network".

Ah, perhaps I misread it. I interpreted "Data can be generated from a variety of sources: kernel messages generated with printk(), userspace messages generated with syslog(3), userspace entries using the native API, coredumps via /proc/proc/sys/kernel/core_pattern and more." as being the "list of things journald can receive messages from (with syslog(3) being one of them). Along with: "Clustering & Network: Today computers seldom work in isolation. It is crucial that logging caters for that and journal files and utilities are from the ground on developed to support big multi-host installations." But it does sound now like these are being described more in terms of "general requirements overview" and not necessarily currently implementation as indicated by: "In a later version we plan to extend the journal minimally to support live remote logging, in both PUSH and PULL modes always using a local journal as buffer for a store-and-forward logic." That said, this article was written in November of last year (date is at the bottom of the page). It would be interesting to see if current releases of journald have that support implemented. Does anyone else know? -- Chris -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

El 20/09/12 13:43, Per Jessen escribió:

I can't find any config support for it, but I might not be looking in the right place. I was also trying to find out how to change the timestamp format, can't find that either.

You are not looking at the wrong place, just looking for an approach completely contrary to the purpose of the journal. The way the "timestamp format" is stored is inmutable, it is up to the consumer application to display it in the format you want to. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

El 20/09/12 14:16, Per Jessen escribió:

And how do I make systemd-journal do that? If it cannot, I find your ideas of leaving out syslog from the default install absolutely ludicrous.

It could be journalctl, or any other custom application written in either C, C++, Ruby, PHP, python etc.. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Rajko wrote:

On Tue, 18 Sep 2012 07:45:01 +0200 Per Jessen wrote:

...

Okay, I (mis)read what you write to mean that systemd would be replacing syslog-ng/rsyslog functionality. If it does not, I don't see a reason to stop including syslog by default?

A systemd's Journal is replacing syslog functionality.

https://docs.google.com/document/pub?id=1IC9yOXj7j6cdLLxWEBAGRL6wl97tFxgjLUE...

As syslog is needed only on systems that will continue using it for various reasons until it will be replaced, it can and should be removed from default installation, which is essentially desktop.

I don't see any logic in that at all - syslog is _obviously_ only needed on systems that use it, but as we today use it on all systems, and systemd does not have the equivalent functionality, why would we stop installing syslog by default ??? Second, your assumption about the default system being a desktop is clearly wrong. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (12.4°C) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Ed Greshko wrote:

On 09/15/2012 10:49 PM, Per Jessen wrote:

...

Ed Greshko wrote:

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On 09/15/2012 09:40 PM, Per Jessen wrote:

...

Ed Greshko wrote:

...

On 09/15/2012 08:08 PM, Per Jessen wrote:

...

AFAICT, this was introduced in 12.2 - what is the exact purpose and can I get rid of it?

man systemd-journald Been there already, but it doesn't answer either of my questions.

It is basically rsyslog for systemd. Its helpmate, journalctl is used to query the logs. Can be useful for debugging systemd problems.

If you don't want to log, you should be able to disable the service. I do want to log, but I've looked at the journal already and didn't see anything that wasn't already in /var/log/messages, /var/log/mail etc. Seems like a duplication of effort and a waste of space in /var/log/journal. (which afaict can just be deleted).

I don't have 12.2, my experience with this service is in Fedora where it logs to /run/log/journal/ so as to not take up space on the disk.

Right, but on openSUSE we create /var/log/journal at installation time. Anyway, I can just delete that, but what I am still wondering about is whether this journald gives me something I don't already have? I.e. back to $SUBJ. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (18.9°C) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

El 15/09/12 12:27, Per Jessen escribió:

Right, but on openSUSE we create /var/log/journal at installation time. Anyway, I can just delete that,

Yes, you can delete that directory and the journal will not have persistent logging, however it will still be functional. but what I am still wondering about is

whether this journald gives me something I don't already have?

Yes, the ability to know for sure the messages are not being tampered with, faster search... however at this stage there are no apps using its full power.. that will probably come along in future releases. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

El 16/09/12 05:17, Per Jessen escribió:

Thanks - any chance of getting a condensed version? :-)

I think that document is a condensed version already.. :-) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org