Druid wrote:

<SUSEhelp> To remove zmd and friends, type the following in a root console: rczmd stop; rpm -e libzypp-zmd-backend zmd zen-updater rug

What are the implications of removing zmd? -- Use OpenOffice.org http://www.openoffice.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

* David Bolt [05-17-07 07:40]:

That all depends. If you're using 10.1, you seem to get a nag-window complaining that zmd isn't running every time you start up a GUI desktop. OTOH, if you're using 10.2, and have the opensuse-updater installed/running, there doesn't appear to be any problems.

openSUSE 10.1 2.6.18.8-396-default SMP x86_64 08:18 wahoo:~ > rpm -q zmd package zmd is not installed I don't get any "nag-window" when starting kde ??? And do not recall ever getting one. But I didn't "rpm -e zmd" until 10 minutes after the 10.1 install completed. -- Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA HOG # US1244711 http://wahoo.no-ip.org Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 OpenSUSE Linux http://en.opensuse.org/ Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://counter.li.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 The Thursday 2007-05-17 at 13:56 +0100, David Bolt wrote: ...

[0] I know I'd turned it off using the run-level editor, but thought I'd removed it as well. Just goes to show checking is more important than just thinking :|

Maybe a dependency somewhere re-installed it :-p - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Made with pgp4pine 1.76 iD8DBQFGTGZrtTMYHG2NR9URAk4hAJ9H69EqLzsrPwE2qUIteIpth0sOjgCfXant cK3J8MHUAprJYfSI8hHH16A= =SDi4 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On 5/17/07, M Harris wrote:

On Wednesday 16 May 2007 20:52, James Knott wrote:

...

Top shows "parse-metadata" is hogging much of the CPU and there's also a lot of disk activity. Is there any way to reduce the impact of this or even get rid of it?

Yast -> System -> System Services (runlevel) -> disable NOVELL zen

next uninstall:

libzypp-zmd-backend zen-updater ruby-zypp rug zmd mono-core mono-core-32bit mono-data mono-web log4net dbus-mono glib-sharp2 gtk-sharp2

Whoa there, most of those have nothing todo with the package management and will break lots of other things. The only ones you need to remove are

libzypp-zmd-backend zen-updater rug zmd

_ Benjamin Weber -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Thursday 17 May 2007 02:12, M Harris wrote:

...

...

ruby-zypp mono-core mono-core-32bit mono-data mono-web log4net dbus-mono glib-sharp2 gtk-sharp2

Whoa there, most of those have nothing todo with the package management and will break lots of other things.

        Which ones break what? Some, uh, interoperability type stuff... I don't know, like C# stuff, or .NET stuff, or....... other M$ patented stuff....

... but I could be wrong. -- Kind regards, M Harris <>< -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Thursday 17 May 2007 03:05, Benji Weber wrote:

...

        Some, uh, interoperability type stuff... I don't know, like C# stuff, or .NET stuff, or.......   other M$ patented stuff....

        ... but I could be wrong.

Lots of applications are written in c#.net , beagle, banshee for example. You are removing an entire development platform. uh, yeah...

"C#'s principal designer and lead architect at Microsoft is Anders Hejlsberg. His previous experience in programming language and framework design (Visual J++, Borland Delphi, Turbo Pascal) can be readily seen in the syntax of the C# language, as well as throughout the Common Language Runtime (CLR) core. In interviews and technical papers he has stated ***flaws*** in most major programming languages, C++, Java, Delphi, Smalltalk, drove the fundamentals of the CLR, which, in turn, drove the design of the C# programming language itself." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C_Sharp Beagle? Banshee? <remove> Micro$oft's .NET initiative is e v i l . (like most every other lockin they've invented) Since Micro$oft has not detailed the supposed patent infringements they claim to have against linux... do you suppose that some of those will have anything whatever to do with the .NET initiative... or the M$ development of C#? Ps. The language of *nix is C/C++. The connectivity of *nix is ip sockets. Pss. The lockin of M$ is IP. -- Kind regards, M Harris <>< -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

...

       Ps.  The language of *nix is C/C++.  The connectivity of *nix is ip sockets.

what does that have to do with the thread? The thread is about removing bloat-ware/CPUware... and removing an "entire development platform" (see the thread) The development platform for linux is C/C++. C#.NET, nor any of its

On Thursday 17 May 2007 14:43, Druid wrote: products, need be installed on a GNU/Linux system. So, I remove them... the thread provides the context... it was in the high-density crap you deleted.

...

       Pss.  The lockin of M$ is IP.

what does that have to do with the thread? (nothing: that's why its a post-script)

-- Kind regards, M Harris <>< -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On 5/17/07, M Harris wrote:

...

...

Ps. The language of *nix is C/C++. The connectivity of *nix is ip sockets.

what does that have to do with the thread? The thread is about removing bloat-ware/CPUware... and removing an "entire development platform" (see the thread) The development platform for linux is C/C++. C#.NET, nor any of its

On Thursday 17 May 2007 14:43, Druid wrote: products, need be installed on a GNU/Linux system. So, I remove them... the thread provides the context... it was in the high-density crap you deleted.

Err, it's quite clear that the thread is referring specifically to parse-metadata, which is the ZMD friend. There was no call for how to remove all mono-related applications. Your text as quoted above is really crossing the barrier of just [unsubstantiated] trolling now, so please stop. The support mailing list isn't really a personal soap box for complaining about Mono applications and trying to force that onto the rest of the _openSUSE_ community Regards, -- Francis Giannaros http://francis.giannaros.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On 5/17/07, M Harris wrote:

On Thursday 17 May 2007 15:28, Francis Giannaros wrote:

...

Your text as quoted above is really crossing the barrier of just [unsubstantiated] trolling now, so please stop.

heh "The language of *nix is C/C++. The connectivity of *nix is ip sockets." Marcio --- druid -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

They're really producing some exciting technologies; to label it as bloated is to just grossly, and inaccurately oversimplify the genuine advances of any development platform. Thanks for the explanation... helps me to keep up with things. I too think

On Friday 18 May 2007 04:39, Francis Giannaros wrote: the "bloated" term gets over-used and I tend to fall into that trap too... although I think all object oriented platforms tend toward that end of the spectrum by virtue of the nature of the "encapsulation" of objects. thanks again -- Kind regards, M Harris <>< -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Also, as I forgot to mention, parse-metadata (being a ZMD-friend) isn't even written in mono itself; the helpers are in fact just C++ executables. See http://en.opensuse.org/Understanding_zmd

Oh, but thats because the development platform for linux is C/C++, francis! heh Marcio --- druid -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Thursday 17 May 2007 12:53, Benji Weber wrote:

On 17/05/07, M Harris wrote:

...

...

"C#'s principal designer and lead architect at Microsoft is Anders Hejlsberg. His previous experience in programming language and framework design (Visual J++, Borland Delphi, Turbo Pascal) can be readily seen in the syntax of the C# language, as well as throughout the Common Language Runtime (CLR) core. In interviews and technical papers he has stated ***flaws*** in most major programming languages, C++, Java, Delphi, Smalltalk, drove the fundamentals of the CLR, which, in turn, drove the design of the C# programming language itself."

Anders Hejlsberg is one of the most respected software engineers in the world, who has proven himself many times. Forgive me if I don't have the same respect for your uninformed gibberish.

I think you might be misinterpreting that quotation. I read it as saying that problems perceived in the older languages informed CLR and C# in the sense that an understanding of those flaws and shortcomings allowed them to be avoided or ameliorated in the newer design. I know very little about CLR and C# nor have I ever heard of Anders Hejlsberg, for what it's worth.

...

Randall Schulz -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

However, I've also earned a good living for the last 5 years writing commercial software in C#, and it has become my all-time favorite programming language.

It's not something to be scorned simply because Microsoft developed it I am noticing that a significant amount of open source software is emerging from the C# development platform. Is the runtime 'open' (free 'as in freedom' software)? I am genuinely curious, is your current C# career in commercial

On Thursday 17 May 2007 17:52, Jerry Houston wrote: programming for client side, server side? What percentage is FOSS? The reason for the question is that I assist others who have questions about the current trends in program development, and I myself am very interested in the current state of FOSS development (my own biases aside, I always am open to learning new things). The other thing I would like to know (all fud symantics and bias aside) from someone devoted to using C# for the last five years, do you think that the perceived performance problems of C#.NET programming is due to the experience/quality of the products themselves, or is it inherent in the (CLR) runtime? I remember when I was doing Java some time back I loved the language but I hated the runtime... and I didn't like JIT that much better. What's your take? TIA -- Kind regards, M Harris <>< -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

M Harris wrote:

I am noticing that a significant amount of open source software is emerging from the C# development platform. Is the runtime 'open' (free 'as in freedom' software)? I am genuinely curious, is your current C# career in commercial programming for client side, server side? What percentage is FOSS? The

Microsoft has released the specs of its .NET runtime so that others can develop languages that address it. That's not my focus, though, so I've never looked into all the details. It's certainly been "open" enough to allow mono to be created. My own work is strictly commercial, none of it open source. (Around these parts FOSS is a tugboat company, so I had to look up what you meant.) Our company is the leading provider of insurance agency management software in our market, and we use .NET runtime support on both client and server sides. Our data center relies on ASP.NET and ADO.NET, and our user presentation is a combination of local winforms and webforms served from the data center. I personally have done mostly winform and webservice development, besides creating a lot of development tools. Others in our office concentrate on DBA work and webform development.

The other thing I would like to know (all fud symantics and bias aside) from someone devoted to using C# for the last five years, do you think that the perceived performance problems of C#.NET programming is due to the experience/quality of the products themselves, or is it inherent in the (CLR) runtime? I remember when I was doing Java some time back I loved the language but I hated the runtime... and I didn't like JIT that much better. What's your take?

Seems to me that every development/runtime environment has advantages and disadvantages, and they need to be weighed. We don't run up against unacceptable performance penalties in the work that we do, and the many advantages of the CLR mean a lot to us. Just having a decent GC makes a lot of code more robust than it otherwise might be, and reduces the cost of development significantly. I remember intense debugging sessions trying to track down COM handles that hadn't been released, or memory allocations that were never freed, and they're not fond memories. Smart pointers can only help so much. The CLR has matured a lot, now with v2.0, and C# v2.0 has added a lot of welcome features, like partial classes, generics, and improved functionality in a lot of the namespaces. Just having a decent string class makes a lot of work easier. Developing sophisticated applications with .NET is simply less work than it would be otherwise, less frustrating and more fun. And it's gratifying to get things up and working quickly, especially if they work well. The C in CLR stands for "common," of course, and C# isn't the only language available. It's the one that makes the most sense to me, though, as someone who has come up through the assembler to C to C++ path throughout my career. It's all the good stuff from C++ without any of the bad parts, plus a huge runtime library that supports just about anything you might need to do. Now that I've finally gotten more involved with Linux, I'm looking forward to finding out what state mono is in. I subscribed to some mono mailing lists around the time it first got started, but after quite a while it seemed not to be going anywhere very fast. From comments I've read recently, that seems to have changed for the better. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Hi, On 5/17/07, M Harris wrote:

I am noticing that a significant amount of open source software is emerging from the C# development platform. Is the runtime 'open' (free 'as in freedom' software)?

If you're talking about Mono, it is all free software: * The compilers (C#, VB.NET, etc.) are licensed under the GPL. * The runtime (the JIT and supporting infrastructure) are licensed under the LGPL. * The class libraries (essentially the libc of .Net) are licensed under the MIT X11 license. Given the ridiculous nature of software patents these days, there's no reason to believe that Mono is any more or less encumbered than any other piece of software: GNOME/KDE, OpenOffice, Samba, Apache, etc. And given that many corporate backers of Linux have substantial patent portfolios themselves (not to mention patent-holding organizations like OIN who are essentially defensive patent trolls on our side), Microsoft has probably more to lose from litigating on patents than we do.

The other thing I would like to know (all fud symantics and bias aside) from someone devoted to using C# for the last five years, do you think that the perceived performance problems of C#.NET programming is due to the experience/quality of the products themselves, or is it inherent in the (CLR) runtime?

These performance problems are almost completely in the applications themselves, not the runtime. However, until recently application developers did not have good memory profiling tools, and because the CLR is a garbage collecting runtime, it's really tough for us to see *why* our apps are using all that memory. That's changed now, and you can see huge wins in this area in apps like Beagle. Speaking of Beagle, the CPU issues were mostly bugs in our code, although occasionally they would be problems in underlying libraries (in C!) that would choke on certain files. We've fixed a lot of our own problems, as well as put limits on how much the underlying libs can use in terms of system resources. For ZMD, a daemon model is the wrong way to go for end user systems... it makes a lot more sense for centralized management in enterprises. Its memory usage problems are like how Beagle used to be: they haven't been profiled and eliminated. And its CPU usage problems aren't actually ZMD at all, they're largely in ZYPP, which is written in C++ (and getting fixed now as we speak). C# and the CLR makes app development a *lot* faster and frankly, more fun. But it also gives you a bigger gun with which to shoot yourself in the foot. Now that there is more experience out there with it and better tools, I think you'll be noticing less and less which apps are written in C/C++ and ones which are written in C#. After all, you probably don't notice today which are written in C/C++ and which are written in Python. Joe -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

M Harris wrote:

On Thursday 17 May 2007 17:52, Jerry Houston wrote:

...

I wrote a C textbook more than 20 years ago.

I remember it well... about the same time the K&R 2nd ed., and about the same time as the C ansi standard.

Ever thought of doing a 2nd ed? --- including GNU/c|c++ ?

Nope, haven't given it a thought. I quit teaching about 10 years ago, too. I got tired of writing about it and talking about it, and just wanted to DO it. I've never looked back. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

M Harris wrote:

On Wednesday 16 May 2007 20:52, James Knott wrote:

...

Top shows "parse-metadata" is hogging much of the CPU and there's also a lot of disk activity. Is there any way to reduce the impact of this or even get rid of it?

Yast -> System -> System Services (runlevel) -> disable NOVELL zen

What would disabling zen affect? -- Use OpenOffice.org http://www.openoffice.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

M Harris wrote:

On Wednesday 16 May 2007 20:52, James Knott wrote:

...

Top shows "parse-metadata" is hogging much of the CPU and there's also a lot of disk activity. Is there any way to reduce the impact of this or even get rid of it?

Yast -> System -> System Services (runlevel) -> disable NOVELL zen

next uninstall:

I have disabled it in Yast, but not uninstalled anything. I'll have to see how that goes. -- Use OpenOffice.org http://www.openoffice.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org