* David T-G [04-16-18 18:24]:

Patrick, et al --

...and then Patrick Shanahan said... % % * David T-G [04-16-18 18:10]: % > ... % > the answer isn't "they both stink; just use FFox". And I hope the answer % > also isn't "forget them all and use this other one" ;-) % % vivaldi appears to use the least system resources.

THAT'S WHAT I MEAN!!!

:-)

OK, so where do I find out about vivaldi? :-)

I use the development version and have noticed no abnormalities. my zypper repo, /etc/zypp/repos.d/vivaldi-snapshot.repo [vivaldi-snapshot] name=vivaldi-snapshot enabled=1 autorefresh=0 baseurl=http://repo.vivaldi.com/archive/rpm/x86_64 type=rpm-md keeppackages=0 adjust as you desire, re: autorefresh -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA @ptilopteri http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member facebook/ptilopteri Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://linuxcounter.net Photos: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/piwigo paka @ IRCnet freenode -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On Monday, April 16, 2018 6:28:35 PM EDT Patrick Shanahan wrote:

...

I use the development version and have noticed no abnormalities. my zypper repo, /etc/zypp/repos.d/vivaldi-snapshot.repo

[vivaldi-snapshot] name=vivaldi-snapshot enabled=1 autorefresh=0 baseurl=http://repo.vivaldi.com/archive/rpm/x86_64 type=rpm-md keeppackages=0

I get NOKEY errors trying to install both the stable and snapshot rpm versions downloaded from the vivaldi website or using YaST with the repo added. Found a key via google, imported it; that broke the installation. Had to add "gpgcheck=0" to the zypp repo file, then installed fine. --dg -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Hello, On Mon, 16 Apr 2018, David T-G wrote:

Patrick, et al --

...and then Patrick Shanahan said... % % * David T-G [04-16-18 18:10]: % > ... % > the answer isn't "they both stink; just use FFox". And I hope the answer % > also isn't "forget them all and use this other one" ;-) % % vivaldi appears to use the least system resources.

Proof? It's an up-to-date-ish FF in a different guise, if I'm not mistaken.

THAT'S WHAT I MEAN!!!

:-)

OK, so where do I find out about vivaldi? :-)

https://vivaldi.com/ IIRC it's FF with a (sligtly) different UI and some differing defaults. And behind on security patches. I trust it (quite a bit) less than its upstream. And the vivaldi website itself sucks. A lot. Go figure. *yuch* that fluffy prose of them advertising their rebranded FF (or Chromium, don't care actually), that makes me retch! And BTW: all that fluff that supposedly makes vivaldi stand out, that's a) either fluff inherently included in FF, just not enabled in the official binaries (but might be in out suse binaries), or it's just some "preinstalled" addons. Which anyone packaging FF can do. Just put the .xpi in the right place while building, or some such. So, basically, Vivaldi is FF built a tad different, as the suse build differ a bit from the official builds. And you might start to wonder, where they get all the money for the buildservers and that fancy, fluffy, horribly broken webpage. And it might be, that vivaldi.com does actually sell something, i.e. your (meta)data. Just inferring. Don't get me wrong, recently, I don't even trust a homebrewn FF build with a ton of crap disabled... But it's IMO still more trustworthy than chromium. Webkit? Huh, dunno. It's run by Apple nowadays... And IE/Edge? Hey, I run Linux exclusively since about '03 or so. And I trust M$ about as far as I can throw their whole headquarters over Lake Washington. So, I try to harness FF via addons and dns. I block a buttload of stuff via dns (dnsmasq), and uMatrix does not allow anything if I open random.example.com. Defaults differ. -dnh -- Q: What are the benefits of speaking to your fans via e-mail? A: It's quicker, easier, and involves less licking. -- Douglas N. Adams -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Liam Proven wrote:

On Tue, 17 Apr 2018 00:55:58 +0200 David Haller wrote:

...

Proof? It's an up-to-date-ish FF in a different guise, if I'm not mistaken.

You *are* mistaken.

Vivaldi is a fork of Opera.

Neither that. It's initiated by the man behind the original opera (as you wrote), but shares code with neither the old opera nor the new one. It's built on chromium sources. The current development snapshot are a bit rough, they just upgraded to chromium 65.0, which brought quite some changes. But I'm using it (Vivaldi, and in particular the snapshot developer version) since more than a year as my default (and actually only) browser. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Hello, On Tue, 17 Apr 2018, Peter Suetterlin wrote:

Liam Proven wrote:

...

David Haller wrote:

...

Proof? It's an up-to-date-ish FF in a different guise, if I'm not mistaken.

You *are* mistaken.

Vivaldi is a fork of Opera.

Neither that. It's initiated by the man behind the original opera (as you wrote), but shares code with neither the old opera nor the new one.

It's built on chromium sources.

Ah, one more chromium derivate then, not one of FF. -dnh -- Actually, I found New Zealanders to be the most akin to Canadians. They also feel the looming presense of a next door neighbour country full of loud, excessively happy and somewhat simple people, and are a little intimidated by it. -- Paul Tomblin -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On Tue, 17 Apr 2018 17:57:18 -0700 John Andersen wrote:

No, I believe you have it wrong. Its a Chromium derivative.

Yes, I was. [...]

He didn't even try to make it look like Opera.

"Vivaldi is a brand new Web browser that wants to bring back all the old features of Opera 12 and then some." https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2015/03/hands-on-with-vivaldi... "Vivaldi – A browser for all Opera 12 fans" https://winaero.com/blog/vivaldi-a-browser-for-all-opera-12-fans/ -- Liam Proven - Technical Writer, SUSE Linux s.r.o. Corso II, Křižíkova 148/34, 186-00 Praha 8 - Karlín, Czechia Email: lproven@suse.com - Office telephone: +420 284 241 084 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 2018-04-17 02:04, Anton Aylward wrote:

On 16/04/18 06:08 PM, David T-G wrote:

...

Hi, all --

OBTW what plugins/extensions do you have with each?

...

I've been using Chromium because it's what was available, but I've noticed that it seems to really crush my laptop (details if anyone is interested; maybe I could also be doing something better).

Well, yes. The FF model is to have one process, no matter how many windows, no matter how many tabs. Something like old CICS on the /370 :-) Everything rolled into the one application, the one process doing its own scheduling, the one address space that it manages itself. very definitely NOT the "UNIX" way of doing things, but then it grew out of the (MS-)DOS world where there wasn't a proper OS to do these things.

Not the new FF on 15.0, there seems to be a "Web-Content" process per tab. Or for some tabs. Right now I saw one using 20% CPU. I killed if from top, and now one tab displays: Gah. Your tab just crashed. We can help! Choose Restore This Tab to reload the page. Nice :-) -- Cheers/Saludos Carlos E. R. (testing openSUSE Leap 15.0, at Minas-Anor) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Anton, et al -- ...and then Anton Aylward said... % % On 16/04/18 06:08 PM, David T-G wrote: % > Hi, all -- % % OBTW what plugins/extensions do you have with each? Not too many, and not as many as I do under Windows (mostly because of inertia; life is busy). I'm actually surprised to find that I don't have any at all in FFox at the moment, although I expected at least NoScript. With XMarks going away I'll likely turn to RoboForm, and then AdBlock Plus & Tree-Style Tab round out the core set. I use AdBlock for Chrome (written by my brother :-) and XMarks -> RoboForm + Keep, and I'm still looking for a good NoScript equivalent. My Dad is a fan of some tab grouping-and-storing thing, but I haven't met it. I wish T-S T were available for Chrome :-| % % > I've been using Chromium because it's what was available, but I've % > noticed that it seems to really crush my laptop (details if anyone is % > interested; maybe I could also be doing something better). % % Well, yes. % The FF model is to have one process, no matter how many windows, no matter how % many tabs. Something like old CICS on the /370 :-) Everything rolled into the *grin* Plus a nod to Carlos who showed a multi-process model. ... % % The Chrome/Chromium model is to have one process per tab. In effect one window % in the larger X-Window frame. Yes, you can do that with X. The Right, and that's supposed to be more granular and more better. But ... % one-process-per-task is more the "UNIX way". But let's see, I have 3 FF % windows: 120 tabs, 210 tabs and 170 tabs. I've given up on groups. Groups % seemed to be the killer. Perhaps a badly designed plug-in. The machine is % quite responsive with only 4G of memory, and this is an old Dell Optiplex 755. Wouldn't that be nice :-( Mind is an E6540 with 8G and my load average often shoots through the roof. % % > I just found % > that, yes, Linux Chrome does exist, so now I wonder which I'd prefer. % > Any discussions on the merits of each? % % I have ChromIUM as well. If I'm running FF with even one window and perhaps 80 ... % reporting. The only way out is to reboot. I planed to test with more memory, I'm glad I don't get quite that far, although I probably should reboot more often than I do (what a pain). But, yeah, I see the same problems. % actually bought some, but now I'm not sure I'll bother with those tests. I'll Hey, if you have it, load it! :-) % just life with FF. The upcoming version is supposed to be an improvement, no % need for Groups. % % > I also use FireFox, but I like having two browsers as options, so I hope % > the answer isn't "they both stink; just use FFox". And I hope the answer % > also isn't "forget them all and use this other one" ;-) % % It's not that they stink, well, OK, they do, but that's beside the point. Its ... % do they try to do everything in one package, but they try to be multi-platform, % and that gets matters confused. Yep. Thanks again & HAND :-D -- David T-G See http://justpickone.org/davidtg/email/ See http://justpickone.org/davidtg/tofu.txt -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 17/04/18 06:26 AM, Liam Proven wrote:

On Mon, 16 Apr 2018 20:04:33 -0400 Anton Aylward wrote:

...

Well, yes. The FF model is to have one process, no matter how many windows, no matter how many tabs.

This has not been true for about a year.

Thank you for the update and the references.

Firefox switched to a multiprocess model in about April 2017:

https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/Firefox/Multiprocess_Firefox

As far as I can see it is still like old IBM CICS in that even if the CPU has multiple cores that can be managed, resource allocated within FF, it is the one address space. I'd view these as process threads but here Linux different, it seems, from Windows. Threads are just another entry in the process table and are deal with by the main scheduler. Or has that changed too? It's been a while since I read the scheduler code. What I consider to be multiprocessing is complete process separation. Not just separate entries in the proc table but their own address space as well. For example, when I run Thunderbird and Dolphin. They may make calls toe shared libraries, send messages to the various layers of the X display via my desktop, but they are separate processes. I suppose the ultimate definition of a separate process is 'can you run it on a physically separate machine?' Use SSH and IO redirection ... And this mail editor window in Thunderbird? I think it is a 'thread' since if i kill the main Thunderbird process this dies too. But I'll have to 'look under the hood' to confirm it and that can wait for a few more cups of coffee and for me to clear more on today's bucket list.

It is called Project Electrolysis:

https://wiki.mozilla.org/Electrolysis/Multiple_content_processes

1 process shows the app and spawns up to 3 background processes for rendering tab content. Thus it can effectively use up to 4 cores, which is still as many as is common on most PCs, but doesn't eat all the resources it can get, as Chrome does.

Never the less, that's better than, as they say, a poke in the eye with a blunt stick. I think I'll stick with FF until further notice :-) Certainly upgrade this machine's memory and a new machine with the capability for more and faster memory to page 8 of my budget. -- "Too many preachers use the bible as a stepladder for their soapbox." -- John Tandervold -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org