On Tue, 31 May 2011 21:42:29 +0530, Anton Aylward wrote:

Is 'awesome' an adjective or a noun? I never know such things when people do an e. e. cummings imitation.

the name of a window manager: http://awesome.naquadah.org/ or: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Awesome_(window_manager) don't know what a "e. e. cummings imitation" is, but i suspect it has to do with me avoiding capital letters. (in this case, using capitals wouldn't have clarified the situation, since it's spelled w/o them on their own website, and also wikipedia.) i've picked this up during high school, when a teacher mentioned that there used to be a reform movement trying to abolish capitals from the german language. that movement seems to have failed, except for one follower: me. -- phani. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Wed, 01 Jun 2011 01:20:36 +0530, Per Jessen wrote:

...

high school, when a teacher mentioned that there used to be a reform movement trying to abolish capitals from the german language. that movement seems to have failed, except for one follower: me. Regardless, you're writing English here, so what is the significance of

i've picked this up during the capitalization used in German?

no significance whatsoever. i just got used to writing w/o capitals during the decades from high school until now and find it doesn't cause problems. i'm still able to capitalize (more or less) correctly if i have to, like in official communication and such. not trying to be a rebel, but doing what comes easiest to me. if this should cause great consternation for some, i could switch on the capitals for this list; not writing that much anyway. -- phani. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

* Stan Goodman [06-01-11 04:53]:

It is not dishonorable not to use capitals.

Nor is picking your nose or scratching your ass, but it *is* distasteful, crude and anti-social. It does show that you are your own persona and have little reguard for accepted behavior. -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA HOG # US1244711 http://wahoo.no-ip.org Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://counter.li.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Can we get back on topic, please. I realise that I can remove a pile of things that akonadi uses and most of them I don't want, except for some widgets in plasma-addons. Now here is another example of gratuitous packaging. No all the add-ons need PIM. I want to monitor CPU/DISK/SWAP and Sensors/Temp and have a spell checker. There are many other things in that package that have nothing to do with PIM. But to use them .. Well, yes, to have the clock speak you need sound ... But why libnepomukutils.so.4 libakonadi-contact.so.4 when I don't need them? Perhaps plasma-addons needs to be repackaged - split. AS DO MANY OTHER OTHER PACKAGES THAT HAVE GRATUITOUS DEPENDENCIES. -- The quality of a leader is reflected in the standards they set for themselves. -- Ray Kroc, Founder of McDonald's -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

phanisvara das said the following on 06/01/2011 11:15 AM:

On Wed, 01 Jun 2011 18:59:32 +0530, Anton Aylward wrote:

...

Well, yes, to have the clock speak you need sound ... But why libnepomukutils.so.4 libakonadi-contact.so.4 when I don't need them?

with the clock, any plasma clock, it's because they show you the calendar if you click on them, that's why they need akonadi. somebody would have to produce a clock that doesn't connect to the calendar to avoid that. i don't know if that could be done via config. files, or if one needed to hack the actual code. i guess KDE or KDE-dev mailing list could shed some light, if they wanted.

Fir enough, but you are missing my point. There are many more in plasma-addons that DON'T need nepomuk/akondai. I already have a clock on my bottom panel that doesn't need them. The reason I mentioned the clock in plasma-addons was that it needed phonon. That's reasonable. But then again, the one on my bottom panel doesn't because it doesn't have an option to speak. Which gets back to my point about packaging. -- Bullet proof vest vendors do not need to demonstrate that naked people are vulnerable to gunfire. Similarly, a security consultant does not need to demonstrate an actual vulnerability in order to claim there is a valid risk. The lack of a live exploit does not mean there is no risk. - Crispin Cowan, 23 Aug 2002 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Wednesday 01 Jun 2011 17:15:17 phanisvara das wrote:

On Wed, 01 Jun 2011 18:59:32 +0530, Anton Aylward wrote:

...

Well, yes, to have the clock speak you need sound ... But why libnepomukutils.so.4 libakonadi-contact.so.4 when I don't need them?

with the clock, any plasma clock, it's because they show you the calendar if you click on them, that's why they need akonadi. somebody would have to produce a clock that doesn't connect to the calendar to avoid that. i don't know if that could be done via config. files, or if one needed to hack the actual code. i guess KDE or KDE-dev mailing list could shed some light, if they wanted.

ShowEvents=false in the clock applet's config. There is UI for this in KDE 4.7. Will -- Will Stephenson, openSUSE Team SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Jeff Hawn, Jennifer Guild, Felix Imendörffer, HRB 21284 (AG Nürnberg) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Wed, 01 Jun 2011 21:31:45 +0530, David Haller wrote:

... You know what? There is a reason why words are capitalised, especially in German. I read a lot. I read _words_ and not letters. Because of capitalization, I don't have to look at each individual letter to read the word, I recognize words from their outline and how the "blackness" (or whiteness) is distributed in that outline. ...

Thanks, that gives me something to think about. I'm still of the opinion though, that there's very little or no difference in readablility, specially when talking about short, technical texts like most list contributions are. For better readability it seems far more important to me to break long texts into sensible paragraphs and use punctuation properly. My perception may be influenced by decades of not using caps, of course, and I'll ask others (who have to read what I write) about their experience & opinion. -- phani. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Hello, On Wed, 01 Jun 2011, phanisvara das wrote:

On Wed, 01 Jun 2011 21:31:45 +0530, David Haller wrote:

...

... You know what? There is a reason why words are capitalised, especially in German. I read a lot. I read _words_ and not letters. Because of capitalization, I don't have to look at each individual letter to read the word, I recognize words from their outline and how the "blackness" (or whiteness) is distributed in that outline. ...

Thanks, that gives me something to think about. I'm still of the opinion though, that there's very little or no difference in readablility, specially when talking about short, technical texts like most list contributions are.

Trust me on that! Experiment with what I suggested! The readability hinges a lot more than you might think on word-outlines (and blackness-distribution in case of black on white). And, esp. with E-mail, it is you who defines in what font a mail is displayed. You may very well not be conciously be (yet) aware about that.

For better readability it seems far more important to me to break long texts into sensible paragraphs and use punctuation properly. My perception may be influenced by decades of not using caps, of course, and I'll ask others (who have to read what I write) about their experience & opinion.

Yes, breaking lines (which you don't, but that's comparably "ok", just a little nuisance), using punctuation and sensible paragraphs is also very much important. But IHMO using proper capitalization is even more important than either. Quite a lot! ;) -dnh -- With some wounds you have to rip off the band-aid, let them breathe and give them time ... to heal ... -- Meredith, Grey's Anatomy 2x20 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Thu, 02 Jun 2011 12:33:46 +0530, Per Jessen wrote:

...

Yes, breaking lines (which you don't, but that's comparably "ok", Breaking lines is partially/mostly up to the recipients email reader.

I wasn't talking about those end-of-line breaks, but paragraph breaks, inserted to make long texts more readable. -- phani. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Patrick Shanahan said the following on 06/01/2011 07:03 AM:

* Stan Goodman [06-01-11 04:53]:

...

It is not dishonorable not to use capitals.

Nor is picking your nose or scratching your ass, but it *is* distasteful, crude and anti-social. It does show that you are your own persona and have little reguard for accepted behavior.

Indeed, and more so: in written English, capitalization, like punctuation, is essential or clear, unambiguous and effective communication. -- It is not that power corrupts but that it is magnetic to the corruptible. -- Frank Herbert, -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

phanisvara das wrote:

On Wed, 01 Jun 2011 19:00:14 +0530, Anton Aylward wrote:

...

Indeed, and more so: in written English, capitalization, like punctuation, is essential or clear, unambiguous and effective communication.

Not in my opinion & experience;

It's obviously very important - I'd never even noticed your different use of capitals, but still understood you just fine :) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Wed, Jun 1, 2011 at 7:22 PM, Stan Goodman wrote:

On 06/01/2011 02:03 PM, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

...

* Stan Goodman  [06-01-11 04:53]:

...

It is not dishonorable not to use capitals.

...

The offending no-caps message seemed to me to be clear and unambiguous. I don't think it is possible to argue that caps would have made it clearer; the effort to pretend otherwise seems pedantic. One would have to be leading an extremely sheltered life to magnify the importance of caps to that extent.

Distasteful? Scratching your ass? Distasteful? Crude? Ant-social? You can't be serious.

In addition to the examples given by Stan (Hebrew and Arabic) I could add that at least for 20 years (till the mid 80th) computers in Russia did not have lower case letters at all (the lower half of the ASCII code table was upper case Latin, as it should be and the upper half of the code table was upper case Cyrillic. All printouts were uppercase. Documentation, source code, everything. Everybody just got used to it. (BTW, it was particularly funny when we first tried Unix (16-bit BSD for PDP11) back there. Unix was the first system that mostly used lower case, so we had Cyrillic letters instead of lower case Latin. What a mess!). I also prefer proper capitalization, but would survive reading the "no-caps" or "all-caps" texts. -- Mark Goldstein -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Anton Aylward wrote:

English? http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/06/01/verity_stob_english_upgrade/

ROFL :) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Tue, 31 May 2011 21:50:06 +0530, Anton Aylward wrote:

The whole point there is that I can pick and choose. That has always been the advantage of Linux. But it sees some of the KDE developers are thinking like Microsoft and want to lead us into a closed garden of fully integrated packages like MS-Office.

i wouldn't go that far; some parallels to M$ thinking may be there, re. fancy looks and package integration, but they do try to work together with other opensource outfits, using open standards & all. i don't see any malignancy, but perhaps they're moving away from what i would like to see -- and i must admit i'm not motivated enough to spend all my free time working on KDE, which might entitle me to voice my opinions more strongly. -- phani. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Tue, 31 May 2011 21:56:20 +0530, Anton Aylward wrote:

...

...i don't lik dolphin. Neither do I. Useless piece of ****. There was no reason for it; Konq was quite adequate.

"****" is too strong, IMO. if i hadn't been using konqueror for a while already, i might have liked dolphin. it's a little better at displaying file info / metadata, but lacks many other features i've come to depend on. -- phani. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

phanisvara das wrote:

On Tue, 31 May 2011 21:56:20 +0530, Anton Aylward wrote:

...

...

...i don't lik dolphin. Neither do I. Useless piece of ****. There was no reason for it; Konq was quite adequate.

"****" is too strong, IMO. if i hadn't been using konqueror for a while already, i might have liked dolphin. it's a little better at displaying file info / metadata, but lacks many other features i've come to depend on.

There's one "feature" in Dolphin I've experienced. In 3.x, when I plugged in a USB drive, a window opened as expected and when I was done, I'd hit a bookmark that would take me to "My Computer", where I could right click on the USB drive to safely remove it. With KDE 4, Dolphin opens, but I then have to open Konqueror to get to My Computer to unmount the drive. With KDE 4, they took a useful feature and broke it, like so many others. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Tuesday, May 31, 2011 04:04:24 PM Anders Johansson wrote:

On Tuesday 31 May 2011 23:00:00 James Knott wrote:

...

I'd hit a bookmark that would take me to "My Computer", where I could right click on the USB drive to safely remove it. With KDE 4, Dolphin opens, but I then have to open Konqueror to get to My Computer to unmount the drive. With KDE 4, they took a useful feature and broke it, like so many others.

Or you could just right-click on the device in the left hand sidebar and select "safely remove". No need to go looking anymore, and no need for a "my computer"

Anders

As usual, Anders, the only thing that is broken is user workflow, not perfect as it was established to compensate for lack of functionality, but well known. Before this post I used Dolphin bread crumbs in an obvious way, learned on web pages, but intrigued with the James post, I did a bit of left and right clicking, dragging and dropping, and I can tell that I'm impressed. Whole line is loaded with functions that make browsing easy, and one of them is safe removal of mounted media. It will show only if you are in a directory where media is mounted. The only thing that is inconvenient is easy removal of items in the Places, which is the name of the list hidden under icon in the root of bread crumbs. One has to click around to find where to activate Places as a sidebar, and then items can be added and removed. So, safe removal is there, right in a Dolphin, the only thing that was missing is a bit of explorer spirit to locate it. -- Regards, Rajko -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Tuesday 31 May 2011 23:00:00 James Knott wrote:

phanisvara das wrote:

...

On Tue, 31 May 2011 21:56:20 +0530, Anton Aylward

wrote:

...

...

...i don't lik dolphin.

Neither do I. Useless piece of ****. There was no reason for it; Konq was quite adequate.

"****" is too strong, IMO. if i hadn't been using konqueror for a while already, i might have liked dolphin. it's a little better at displaying file info / metadata, but lacks many other features i've come to depend on.

There's one "feature" in Dolphin I've experienced. In 3.x, when I plugged in a USB drive, a window opened as expected and when I was done, I'd hit a bookmark that would take me to "My Computer", where I could right click on the USB drive to safely remove it. With KDE 4, Dolphin opens, but I then have to open Konqueror to get to My Computer to unmount the drive. With KDE 4, they took a useful feature and broke it, like so many others.

Why the long face? The KDE breaking-useful-features team are far less prodcutive than you think. It's more probable that you simply don't have the Places panel displayed, which shows all the plugged in drives and lets you unmount them on right click, is this the case? View->Panels->Places or F9 to show Places again. Alternatively you can click the removable devices icon in the system tray (only visible when something removable is present) and then click the eject button to the right of the usb drive. HTH Will -- Will Stephenson, openSUSE Team SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Jeff Hawn, Jennifer Guild, Felix Imendörffer, HRB 21284 (AG Nürnberg) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Thursday 16 Jun 2011 16:02:04 Stan Goodman wrote:

On Thursday 16 June 2011 at 16:56:33 (GMT+2) Will Stephenson

wrote:

...

For now, you can set [QMYSQL]StartServer=false in ~/.config/akonadi/akonadiserverrc to prevent Akonadi from being started by anything on demand, and [Basic Settings]Start Nepomuk=false in ~/.kde4/share/config/nepomukserverrc . As a result you'll lose Activities in Plasma, as well as KDE PIM and deep search in Dolphin that you already mentioned.

The sentence above beginning with "As a result..." seems to be ambiguous, because the punctuation is probably incorrect. Would you mind explaining exactly what part(s) of KDE PIM would be lost as the price of relieving the system of Akonadi (which is a very attractive idea)?

No problem, that sentence was written assuming both were disabled. To clarify and expand: As a result of disabling Akonadi you will lose (as of kdepim 4.6, which will be in openSUSE 12.1) kmail, kaddressbook, korganizer, knotes, kjots and kalarm. Other apps in kdepim might continue to work until they are ported to Akonadi. As a result of disabling Nepomuk, while keeping Akonadi, you will lose address completion and search in KMail, Activities in Plasma, deep search in Dolphin and the new KDE Telepathy-based instant messaging client. We hope that by 12.1 Akonadi is recognised as a net win over the KDE 2/3-era monolithic, ad hoc design of kdepim 4.4 and earlier. Will -- Will Stephenson, openSUSE Team SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Jeff Hawn, Jennifer Guild, Felix Imendörffer, HRB 21284 (AG Nürnberg) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Stan Goodman said the following on 06/16/2011 05:28 PM:

Unfortunate that no more conventional address book is supplied for kamil, for the benefit of people who only want an address book rather than a magic genie.

Good point, Stan. And it makes me wonder, why invent a new addressbook database? T'Bird also supports addressbooks on a LDAP server. Which is cool; a few organizations I've involved with have addressbooks in that format that I can proxy to. Of course such addressbooks are not standardized, but so what? The UI lets you set up the query needed. But there is a deeper issue here. Microsoft moved from individual config files to the "Registry". I can turn to almost any config file under Linus and there is embedded text documenting the settings. Some files are stripped, but templates or detailed man pages exist. The Registry, by comparison has no inline documentation and external documentation is often difficult to find or non-existent. My fear is that too many things in Linux are moving to that centralised database model. My second fear is that many things (much of KDE config is one example) that the config is only documented in the source code and not the man pages. -- We are not afraid to follow truth wherever it may lead, nor to tolerate any error so long as reason is left free to combat it. --Thomas Jefferson -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On 17/06/11 01:31, Anton Aylward wrote:

Stan Goodman said the following on 06/16/2011 05:28 PM:

...

Unfortunate that no more conventional address book is supplied for kamil, for the benefit of people who only want an address book rather than a magic genie.

Good point, Stan. And it makes me wonder, why invent a new addressbook database?

There is no new addressbook database. Your default addressbook continues to be stored in standard VCard files. A database is only involved as an implementation detail of a PIM data service. A PIM data service is part of a design to reduce memory footprint, startup time and avoid concurrent access issues, which you can have as soon as you start using KMail and KAddressbook simultaneously. <snip>

But there is a deeper issue here. Microsoft moved from individual config files to the "Registry". I can turn to almost any config file under Linus and there is embedded text documenting the settings. Some files are stripped, but templates or detailed man pages exist. The Registry, by comparison has no inline documentation and external documentation is often difficult to find or non-existent.

The comparison is ambiguous because we're talking about data here, not configuration and invalid because KDE PIM data is still stored in the standard text based format, not in a binary database. Old model UI (eg Kmail) <---> Some APIs, custom per-application database code, ioslave processes, which you have to read the code to understand <---> standard text based data files New model UI <----> Some APIs, common database process, also opaque <---> standard text based data files The difference is that in the old model, as soon as you have more than one UI accessing the data (eg KMail and KAddressbook) all the data and access code is copied into memory linearly times the number of UIs. In the new model, more of that is shared. In the new model, all the ad-hoc 'database' implementations are replaced with one dedicated database used as a cache to save all those in-memory copies of the data from the disk. For reference T'bird: UI <---> Some APIs <---> Mork database file ( ~/.thunderbird/*.default/abook.mab) which if you cat it out is text, but harder to work with than vcard. Evolution: UI <---> Some APIs <---> dbus server <---> e-d-s custom database instance <---> sqlite and berkeley DB files So the grass is no greener there.

My fear is that too many things in Linux are moving to that centralised database model.

I'm sorry that the windows registry and gconf have poisoned the well of user goodwill for Akonadi. If you look at how the KDE PIM team are doing a service based architecture, you'll see that they are striving to preserve users' control of their data. The problem is that users, who don't need to understand any of the bits between the UI and maybe the data files, see "DATABASE" and equate that with "BLACK HOLE"

My second fear is that many things (much of KDE config is one example) that the config is only documented in the source code and not the man pages.

I hope that a look inside /usr/share/kde4/config.kcfg/ 's files will allay that fear. Since KDE 3, KDE has used these commented definitions of the apps' config data schemas. There was the kconfigeditor tool to browse and modify configuration too, but that seems to have been left to rot, and unfortunately no-one ever wrote a kcfg->man page formatter for you. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Am Samstag, 18. Juni 2011, 07:16:20 schrieb kanenas@hawaii.rr.com:

If we all had pdp-8s and a 2000 entry addressbook, it might be arguable that saving a few k of memory was important enough to change the whole system. In this thread and in many others many have complained about the direction of kde4 and many of us also voted by simply staying out of kde4. In this thread there seems to be a genuine effort to urge developers to go back to simplicity ( from the user point of view) and allow the user more control over system setup. The particular example of the imposed link between kaddressbook and database indexers is a show stopper for me.

That's no problem. Everybody is entitled to make their own choices. Just don't expect that things will change just because you want to or because xy is a showstopper for you. You might claim that KDE4 lost users and I might concur. Yet I claim that it gained more than it lost thus there is nothing to worry about since it's normal that not everybody is happy with change. It's simply impossible. You might think differently but that's just the way it is and only time will tell whether KDE4 is really that bad (bling, bloated and everything else people claim) and dying because it looses more users and developers than it attracts. And btw akonadi is not only meant to save tome kb of memory. So I'd say, get involved first, get some info and then simply decide whether you move on to some other piece of software or stay with KDE4 and its development. Since kdepim 4.6 IMAP got a lot faster and works even after resuming from suspend. That was a real showstopper IMO rather than you not wanting some package installed or in memory. I hope you did not mean nepomuk by "database indexers" because the indexing bit is strigi and not nepomuk and the latter one can be disabled without loosing any features in kdepim AFAIK. Sven -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Am Samstag, 18. Juni 2011, 22:40:18 schrieb Bob S:

Sven, you are just a rah rah boy for KDE4 and have been since 4.0 when it didn't work a all.

Any real evidence for that or just some statement that comes in handy if one runs out of objective criticism regarding my statements? Let me see what links you got regarding the 4.0 and the rah rah.

Defending the undefendable and chastising people who had the gall to criticize it. Making broad sweeping statements about how much better this is for us and we just don't understand and appreciate it. You continue to do that now based on only your own opinion.

Where did I say in my former email that KDE4 is better than xy or better for everybody? I claimed that working IMAP is more important for me than not being able to run KDE without having to install akonadi or nepomuk or them being used for an addressbook. In fact you yourself support that claim because a not working IMAP after resume ends in "cannot work" whereas an imposed link between a database and the addressbook does not. Apart from the "indexer" not having to do anything with that. Further I said, people have a choice whether they want to use KDE4 or not. And that just because xy does not like or need feature zy it is wrong to assume that it is useless or the wrong approach for the majority of users. And I will repeat myself again, if KDE4 does not listen to its users – it will die. Unless you put some money into some real market research that's the only way to find out for real whether it loses more users/developers than it gains or not. I never even questioned that KDE4 does lose users, every app/brand etc. does so.

Well, it isn't better for all of us.

Who is "us"? The few that rant on this mailinglist or the many that just use KDE4 for their work? Isn't it a bit – let's say – not well thought through that you make such a broad sweeping statement right after you criticise me for allegedly doing so? If you want to get into contact with KDE folks this is the wrong place. So even if you were interested in objective criticism, you will not reach the people you want to talk to on this mailinglist. That is if you are interested in change. This is more of a "share knowledge and opinion" place. There is opensuse-kde@ which would be slightly closer but still wrong since most KDE developers do not work for openSUSE/Novell. Move your arguments to the KDE mailinglists and talk to the developers if you think you have a valid point and are not just interested in finding others that share your opinion.

FYI I have tried to accept the inevitable laboring through each iteration of supposed progrssion with great dissapointment and declining hope. Now that we have reached 4.6 I am beginning to like it with renewed hope for the future releases.

BUT!!!, As long as I cannot have a working address book I CANNOT use it. That IS a showstopper. So please save your breath about the "advantages" we do not appreciate because of our ignorance.

You cannot use KDE4 because of the "imposed link between kaddressbook and database indexers"? (You agreed with kanenas on this) First, what indexer? Second, why would that result in "cannot use"? Or do you actually mean "do not want to use"? The latter is perfectly fine, the former does not make sense to me since as long as the address book stores addresses and you can pick addresses from it via kmail it works for all those users who use it for that purpose, i.e. a simple address book. Whether there is an imposed link does not make this functionality not work. But there are certainly advanced features which might hold you back. What features are missing in kdepim 4.6's addressbook? Distribution lists? That's one feature which was missing and now we can argue about how many people use it. Yet it is fact that nobody cared enough to get involved – same old story, no will to invest time/money for something that is allegedly crucial to ones productivity but lots of time to write about what one does not like about xy. Never mind. Anyway, if you add a new address book to your kdepim 4.6's kaddressbook and pick "add new contact group" after that, you can set-up lists with contacts. And you can pick those groups from kmail's composer, either by auto-completion or clicking on the "add" button next to the address-field. Sven -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Am Sonntag, 19. Juni 2011, 22:14:39 schrieb Anton Aylward:

Sven Burmeister said the following on 06/19/2011 07:28 AM:

...

I claimed that working IMAP is more important for me than not being able to run KDE without having to install akonadi or nepomuk or them being used for an addressbook.

Help me here, Sven. What does a "working IMAP" have to do with it?

Context. This thread was about kdepim, akonadi etc. "imposed links to xy (akonadi/nepomuk etc.)" were claimed to be showstoppers and making KDE4/kdepim 4.6 something one "cannot work" with. IMHO a broken IMAP (client) after resuming from suspend is really something that results in "cannot work" whereas "imposed links" is something that can only lead to "do not want it". The IMAP issue was fixed in kdepim 4.6 while it remains broken in previous kdepim versions. HTH

I use IMAP exclusively from my desktop. Yes, mailhub uses SMTP and POP, as, I'm sure, do the ISP accounts. But my desktop MUA uses only IMAP. It works great. It has for a long time. It works as well now as it did before akonadi/nepomuk came along.

The imap-kio does not recover from resuming and has to be killed. Long known bug. this is about kdepim and not some other email client.

My complaints are all about things I am FORCED to install even if I don't want them and don't use them. Linux is supposed to be about freedoms that the other two major players in the OS game don't give us. They adopt a "my way or nothing" attitude; oh you can fiddle with "bling" but nothing like the freedom Linux gives you. The journalists may complain about the diversity of Linux while their colleagues are complaining we are killing off the diversity of wild-life.

Linux is a very broad word in that context. A lot of dependencies you encounter are decided on by the packagers and not necessarily imposed by KDE. Packaging depends on which distro you use. Packagers do think about which dependencies might be best for the common user. Yet even that opinion alters from distro to distro. So maybe you are looking for another packaging ideology than the one openSUSE uses. Maybe gentoo?

So: I don't _want_ to use Kmail. I _DO_ want to use Thunderbird. I _DO_ want to use Firefox. I _DON'T_ want to use Gnome. I _DO_ want to use GoogleCalendar.

Who forces you to use kmail? This thread was basically about having to use akonadi/nepomuk for some features within KDE. It's common to share functionality across apps in order to save resources (memory as well as programming).

Am I alone? Perhaps some lurkers can say "me too" (PLEASE!) I don't think this is odd.

What can you do? Well, I'd _like_ to stick with KDE, but ...

Thunderbird and Firefox have plugins that I consider essential. Its as simple as that. If you can make Thunderbird use the Mozilla plugins I'll look at KMail.

I don't imagine anything will make me use Dolphin.

You cannot stick with KDE because it includes dolphin and kmail? Sven -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Sunday 19 June 2011 22:15:44 Anton Aylward wrote:

So, if you have to have LDAP with opensuse, why have another addressbook database? If I forget about kdepim and Akonadi and use LDAP I an use either Thunderbird or KMail (or Evolution or Outlook or ....).

What if I don't want to use Kmail? What if the mailhub machine I access using IMAP does its own indexing out there?

akonadi is *not* a new addressbook implementation. It is a cache, for all sorts of PIM data. The idea is that all applications on a system uses it, for faster data transfer and less configuration, but it is in itself *not* an address book, email storage etc. This is straight from the documentation http://techbase.kde.org/Projects/PIM/Akonadi#Where_does_Akonadi_store_my_dat... You can use akonadi with an LDAP address book Anders -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Am Montag, 20. Juni 2011, 07:00:32 schrieb Anton Aylward:

Anders Johansson said the following on 06/20/2011 12:43 AM:

...

You can use akonadi with an LDAP address book

I think you are so massively missing my point. You last line illustrates that wonderfully.

No. Because without akonadi the address book cannot do anything, i.e. not access ldap/vcf files etc. because that functionality was moved out. Same for kmail and its email data/transports.

What I'm talking about is SILOs. As in "Splendid Isolationism".

If I have an LDAP address book then I can use that with Thunderbird and KMail. What use is Akondai?

Akonadi has agents that talk to ldap, vcf files/folders, imap, pop, groupdav, google calendar etc. Of course every single KDE app could do that on its own but it would be a waste of resources to duplicate that code. Thus KDE apps move towards using the akonadi agents and hence do not have to worry about the actual "talk to the service" but can concentrate on the actual app and its features – not the data management. So developers can concentrate on one agent and fixes in that agent will benefit all apps using akonadi. If you do not use kdepim, you will not need that bit of akonadi. If you do not use anything that uses akonadi you will not need akonadi.

There's my LDAP server on my 'database server' machine. Its there so things like addresses, DNS etc can be shared by all of the LAN. The OS has its cache and I'm sure the underlying database engine, be it MySQL or plain text files does its own caching, and the LDAP server does its caching. Maybe even my local LDAP client is caching. What do you want to be my MUA is caching?

And why am I using LDAP in the first place? Because it offers a standard API to all the applications that use it.

So you are asking me to use Akondai, which caches this data further and offers a standard API ....

No. Kmail and the address book use akonadi to not have to worry about data management and retrieval. They outsourced their data management – if you want to put it that way – in order to share that functionality rather than duplicating it in each and every app that wants to have access to ldap, email etc. Leaving alone the different apps keeping their instance of accessing ldap in memory.

* Your concept of 'personal' and mine have only a slight overlap * The Applications I want to have share that data aren't the ones you are working on - SILOs again * You're hard coding it in rather than making it a plugin option

The plug-in option does not make sense. It would be a duplication of code if e.g. the kdepim address book would have its own methods to talk to ldap and additionally to that the methods to talk to akonadi which then talks to ldap. Sven -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Sunday 19 June 2011 01:28:41 am Sven Burmeister wrote:

Am Samstag, 18. Juni 2011, 22:40:18 schrieb Bob S:

...

Sven, you are just a rah rah boy for KDE4 and have been since 4.0 when it didn't work a all.

Any real evidence for that or just some statement that comes in handy if one runs out of objective criticism regarding my statements? Let me see what links you got regarding the 4.0 and the rah rah.

...

Defending the undefendable and chastising people who had the gall to criticize it. Making broad sweeping statements about how much better this is for us and we just don't understand and appreciate it. You continue to do that now based on only your own opinion.

Where did I say in my former email that KDE4 is better than xy or better for everybody?

I claimed that working IMAP is more important for me than not being able to run KDE without having to install akonadi or nepomuk or them being used for an addressbook. In fact you yourself support that claim because a not working IMAP after resume ends in "cannot work" whereas an imposed link between a database and the addressbook does not. Apart from the "indexer" not having to do anything with that.

Further I said, people have a choice whether they want to use KDE4 or not. And that just because xy does not like or need feature zy it is wrong to assume that it is useless or the wrong approach for the majority of users. And I will repeat myself again, if KDE4 does not listen to its users – it will die. Unless you put some money into some real market research that's the only way to find out for real whether it loses more users/developers than it gains or not. I never even questioned that KDE4 does lose users, every app/brand etc. does so.

...

Well, it isn't better for all of us.

Who is "us"? The few that rant on this mailinglist or the many that just use KDE4 for their work? Isn't it a bit – let's say – not well thought through that you make such a broad sweeping statement right after you criticise me for allegedly doing so?

If you want to get into contact with KDE folks this is the wrong place. So even if you were interested in objective criticism, you will not reach the people you want to talk to on this mailinglist. That is if you are interested in change. This is more of a "share knowledge and opinion" place. There is opensuse-kde@ which would be slightly closer but still wrong since most KDE developers do not work for openSUSE/Novell. Move your arguments to the KDE mailinglists and talk to the developers if you think you have a valid point and are not just interested in finding others that share your opinion.

...

FYI I have tried to accept the inevitable laboring through each iteration of supposed progrssion with great dissapointment and declining hope. Now that we have reached 4.6 I am beginning to like it with renewed hope for the future releases.

BUT!!!, As long as I cannot have a working address book I CANNOT use it. That IS a showstopper. So please save your breath about the "advantages" we do not appreciate because of our ignorance.

You cannot use KDE4 because of the "imposed link between kaddressbook and database indexers"? (You agreed with kanenas on this) First, what indexer? Second, why would that result in "cannot use"? Or do you actually mean "do not want to use"? The latter is perfectly fine, the former does not make sense to me since as long as the address book stores addresses and you can pick addresses from it via kmail it works for all those users who use it for that purpose, i.e. a simple address book. Whether there is an imposed link does not make this functionality not work. But there are certainly advanced features which might hold you back.

What features are missing in kdepim 4.6's addressbook? Distribution lists? That's one feature which was missing and now we can argue about how many people use it. Yet it is fact that nobody cared enough to get involved – same old story, no will to invest time/money for something that is allegedly crucial to ones productivity but lots of time to write about what one does not like about xy. Never mind.

Anyway, if you add a new address book to your kdepim 4.6's kaddressbook and pick "add new contact group" after that, you can set-up lists with contacts. And you can pick those groups from kmail's composer, either by auto-completion or clicking on the "add" button next to the address-field.

Sven

naw, this post does *not* prove Sven is a kde4 "rah rah" man, or do it? d:))) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Saturday 18 June 2011 13:16:20 kanenas@hawaii.rr.com wrote:

On Thursday 16 June 2011 11:34:01 pm Will Stephenson wrote:

...

On 17/06/11 01:31, Anton Aylward wrote:

...

Stan Goodman said the following on 06/16/2011 05:28 PM:

...

Unfortunate that no more conventional address book is supplied for kamil, for the benefit of people who only want an address book rather than a magic genie.

Good point, Stan. And it makes me wonder, why invent a new addressbook database?

There is no new addressbook database. Your default addressbook continues to be stored in standard VCard files.

A database is only involved as an implementation detail of a PIM data service.

A PIM data service is part of a design to reduce memory footprint, startup time and avoid concurrent access issues, which you can have as soon as you start using KMail and KAddressbook simultaneously.

<snip>

...

But there is a deeper issue here. Microsoft moved from individual config files to the "Registry". I can turn to almost any config file under Linus and there is embedded text documenting the settings. Some files are stripped, but templates or detailed man pages exist. The Registry, by comparison has no inline documentation and external documentation is often difficult to find or non-existent.

The comparison is ambiguous because we're talking about data here, not configuration and invalid because KDE PIM data is still stored in the standard text based format, not in a binary database.

Old model UI (eg Kmail) <---> Some APIs, custom per-application database code, ioslave processes, which you have to read the code to understand <---> standard text based data files

New model UI <----> Some APIs, common database process, also opaque <---> standard text based data files

The difference is that in the old model, as soon as you have more than one UI accessing the data (eg KMail and KAddressbook) all the data and access code is copied into memory linearly times the number of UIs. In the new model, more of that is shared.

If we all had pdp-8s and a 2000 entry addressbook, it might be arguable that saving a few k of memory was important enough to change the whole system. In this thread and in many others many have complained about the direction of kde4 and many of us also voted by simply staying out of kde4. In this thread there seems to be a genuine effort to urge developers to go back to simplicity ( from the user point of view) and allow the user more control over system setup. The particular example of the imposed link between kaddressbook and database indexers is a show stopper for me.

As it is for me also. I just can;t use KDE4 for this reason. Bob S -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Sunday 19 June 2011 06:47:24 pm Anders Johansson wrote:

On Saturday 18 June 2011 07:16:20 kanenas@hawaii.rr.com wrote:

...

The particular example of the imposed link between kaddressbook and database indexers

akonadi is not a "database indexer" (whatever that might be). It is a storage. A storage. A storage. A storage.

Indexing services can use it, but by itself it is a storage. A storage. A storage. A storage. A storage.

Complaining about akonadi because strigi uses it to store its data is a bit like complaining about oracle because the CIA uses it to store its information from illegal wire tapping

Anders

Anders, you just mentioned strigi and big brother in the same sentence. is this the aha moment for all of us conspiracy theorists? :) d. ps: sorry about wasting bandwidth, but could not resist this one. no i will not continue on this path:) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

* Stan Goodman [06-16-11 17:31]:

Thank you. My concern was about the absence of any alternate address book, since kaddressbook is integrated with Akonadi, which I want to avoid. So that makes final my decision to junk kmail (which I like otherwise), and switch to Thunderbird (which I like less, but one needs a mailer).

I have used "abook" and lbdb for years, but I'n *not* a gui person. -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA HOG # US1244711 http://wahoo.no-ip.org Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://counter.li.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org