[SLE] Plain text vs HTML text....
Hi all, I've had some feedback, that "many" (two actually so far....), on the list are HTML challenged & would like to check this out on the list proper. So, is HTML a hassle to enalbe/read or are the plain text guys still stuck in the 1950's, not that is is the year 2000 or anything like that? ;-) Greek Geek :-) Calligraphy rules! -- Greek Geek -- To unsubscribe send e-mail to suse-linux-e-unsubscribe@suse.com For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the FAQ at http://www.suse.com/Support/Doku/FAQ/
On Tue, 29 Feb 2000, Bobby Geortgilakis wrote:
<html>
<br>Hi all, <p>I've had some feedback, that "many" (two actually so far....), on the list are HTML challenged & would like to check this out on the list proper. <p>So, is HTML a hassle to enalbe/read or are the plain text guys still stuck in the 1950's, not that is is the year 2000 or anything like that? ;-) <p>Greek Geek :-) <br> <p>Calligraphy rules! -- Greek Geek</html>
Actually, I am using a reasonably modern mail client (KMail), and I can't read this garbage without saving the message to a file, doing something like `w3c -dump filename > filename2', then trying to cut and paste filename2 into a reply. Then you have the headache of somebody reading a long thread, deciding to post to it, and then mangling everything in that reply to conform to the so-called HTML standard. The truth is that there are only a handful of mail clients (actually, Nutscrape Mail is the only one that comes to mind) that truly handles HTML *natively*. pine and mutt (amongst others) can be *adapted* (through the use of a .mailcap file) to read it, but they promptly make any reply standard text. True, some of us <waving hand in the air> use mail clients that are feature-poor or otherwise sub-optimized; does that mean we should be punished for choosing software that suits our needs? Should we be ostracized from the community that values individuality above all else? Hell, let's make it so that any messages not sent with Microsoft Outlook 2000 are automatically rejected by the transport agent at suse.com!! Is everybody with me?!?! -- -=|JP|=- Jon Pennington | Atipa Linux Solutions -o) jpennington@atipa.com | Kansas City, MO /\\ 816-241-2641 x107 | http://www.atipa.com _\_V -- To unsubscribe send e-mail to suse-linux-e-unsubscribe@suse.com For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the FAQ at http://www.suse.com/Support/Doku/FAQ/
True, some of us <waving hand in the air> use mail clients that are feature-poor or otherwise sub-optimized; does that mean we should be
for choosing software that suits our needs? Should we be ostracized from
There are some, including myself, who feel that HTML adds nothing of value to the message, and choose to use plain text clients on whatever platform. Regards, Bob Curry *********** REPLY SEPARATOR *********** On 02/29/2000 at 15:38 Jon Pennington wrote: punished the
community that values individuality above all else? Hell, let's make it so that any messages not sent with Microsoft Outlook 2000 are automatically rejected by the transport agent at suse.com!! Is everybody with me?!?!
-- -=|JP|=-
-- Robert W. Curry KC1IB rcurry@thcs.com PGP RSA key ID:0x7E4A9793 http://www.thcs.com -- To unsubscribe send e-mail to suse-linux-e-unsubscribe@suse.com For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the FAQ at http://www.suse.com/Support/Doku/FAQ/
Jon Pennington wrote: <snip>
True, some of us <waving hand in the air> use mail clients that are feature-poor or otherwise sub-optimized; does that mean we should be punished for choosing software that suits our needs? Should we be ostracized from the community that values individuality above all else? Hell, let's make it so that any messages not sent with Microsoft Outlook 2000 are automatically rejected by the transport agent at suse.com!! Is everybody with me?!?!
I am. I think HTML mail is a waste of resources in every way popularized by MS as an eye candy. This is true to their tradition of bloating things for the sake of looking good on paper. The only HTML support I really (or anyone) need is to linkify the URLs automatically. My personal opinion is that people who send HTML mail to a list are really brain dead. They should know that not everyone is using bloated software. I am being harsh but its the truth. Reject the text/html mime from Suse List :) ^^^^^^ Nadeem P.S. I am not using the word "ban" anymore. :) -- To unsubscribe send e-mail to suse-linux-e-unsubscribe@suse.com For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the FAQ at http://www.suse.com/Support/Doku/FAQ/
Nadeem, I tend to disagree with you in general on this one. There are many times when HTML is handy in mail. Though I don't know how useful it is on a list like this. Microsoft is not responsible for the introduction of HTML mail. Netscape was using it first. I don't believe HTML bloats things all that much. In the future we will be using some variant of XML and Java/JavaScript to send complex mail that requires digital signatures that will be binding in a court of law. OTOH, I understand your perspective. Plain text is simple; you can pop it open in a telnet window from anywhere, and is has served humanity well for thousands of years. Another point I am aware of is the difference in through put between the people in different locations and economic circumstances. To some of the folks on this list an extra meg of data can really be a PITA. Some people may not have the computing resources to handle all the GUI that others take for granted. If we started getting any heavy graphics in messages this could also cause a problem for the mail servers as regards storage space. Personally I like information that is presented in graphically interesting ways. I am dyslexic and find that my mind understands much more quickly when it is given additional graphical queues to distinguish different types of information. Another thing that gets me is that I move from system to system all day long. I never know how a given system is configured. I rarely know if I'm sending out HTML or PT. It's a tough call. For now I will honor the wishes of those who want PT only. If I send out HTML, please send me a note directly to let me know. It is most likely an honest mistake. Steve Nadeem Hasan wrote:
Jon Pennington wrote:
<snip>
True, some of us <waving hand in the air> use mail clients that are feature-poor or otherwise sub-optimized; does that mean we should be punished for choosing software that suits our needs? Should we be ostracized from the community that values individuality above all else? Hell, let's make it so that any messages not sent with Microsoft Outlook 2000 are automatically rejected by the transport agent at suse.com!! Is everybody with me?!?!
I am. I think HTML mail is a waste of resources in every way popularized by MS as an eye candy. This is true to their tradition of bloating things for the sake of looking good on paper. The only HTML support I really (or anyone) need is to linkify the URLs automatically.
My personal opinion is that people who send HTML mail to a list are really brain dead. They should know that not everyone is using bloated software. I am being harsh but its the truth.
Reject the text/html mime from Suse List :) ^^^^^^
Nadeem
P.S. I am not using the word "ban" anymore. :)
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Jon Pennington wrote:
<snip>
True, some of us <waving hand in the air> use mail clients that are feature-poor or otherwise sub-optimized; does that mean we should be
Ditto's. I was (without even thinking about it) initially sending html. I got a couple of (kind) reminders to send PT so I, realizing my error, corrected the situation by turning my html off. I go back and forth between a couple of computers and I've since restricted my list emails to my portable which is set to send text only. Sorry for any inconvenience I've caused. Thanks! jrh -----Original Message----- From: Steven T. Hatton [mailto:hattons@CPKWEBSER5.ncr.disa.mil] Sent: Tuesday, February 29, 2000 5:03 PM To: suse-linux-e@suse.com Subject: Re: [SLE] Plain text vs HTML text.... Nadeem, I tend to disagree with you in general on this one. There are many times when HTML is handy in mail. Though I don't know how useful it is on a list like this. Microsoft is not responsible for the introduction of HTML mail. Netscape was using it first. I don't believe HTML bloats things all that much. In the future we will be using some variant of XML and Java/JavaScript to send complex mail that requires digital signatures that will be binding in a court of law. OTOH, I understand your perspective. Plain text is simple; you can pop it open in a telnet window from anywhere, and is has served humanity well for thousands of years. Another point I am aware of is the difference in through put between the people in different locations and economic circumstances. To some of the folks on this list an extra meg of data can really be a PITA. Some people may not have the computing resources to handle all the GUI that others take for granted. If we started getting any heavy graphics in messages this could also cause a problem for the mail servers as regards storage space. Personally I like information that is presented in graphically interesting ways. I am dyslexic and find that my mind understands much more quickly when it is given additional graphical queues to distinguish different types of information. Another thing that gets me is that I move from system to system all day long. I never know how a given system is configured. I rarely know if I'm sending out HTML or PT. It's a tough call. For now I will honor the wishes of those who want PT only. If I send out HTML, please send me a note directly to let me know. It is most likely an honest mistake. Steve Nadeem Hasan wrote: punished
for choosing software that suits our needs? Should we be ostracized from the community that values individuality above all else? Hell, let's make it so that any messages not sent with Microsoft Outlook 2000 are automatically rejected by the transport agent at suse.com!! Is everybody with me?!?!
I am. I think HTML mail is a waste of resources in every way popularized by MS as an eye candy. This is true to their tradition of bloating things for the sake of looking good on paper. The only HTML support I really (or anyone) need is to linkify the URLs automatically.
My personal opinion is that people who send HTML mail to a list are really brain dead. They should know that not everyone is using bloated software. I am being harsh but its the truth.
Reject the text/html mime from Suse List :) ^^^^^^
Nadeem
P.S. I am not using the word "ban" anymore. :)
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Nadeem Hasan wrote:
Jon Pennington wrote:
<snip>
True, some of us <waving hand in the air> use mail clients that are feature-poor or otherwise sub-optimized; does that mean we should be punished for choosing software that suits our needs? Should we be ostracized from the community that values individuality above all else? Hell, let's make it so that any messages not sent with Microsoft Outlook 2000 are automatically rejected by the transport agent at suse.com!! Is everybody with me?!?!
I am. I think HTML mail is a waste of resources in every way popularized by MS as an eye candy. This is true to their tradition of bloating things for the sake of looking good on paper. The only HTML support I really (or anyone) need is to linkify the URLs automatically.
I just *have* to write a 'me too' message here. I'm not quite so dead set against it as Nadeem, but I still think it is a waste of resources.
My personal opinion is that people who send HTML mail to a list are really brain dead. They should know that not everyone is using bloated software. I am being harsh but its the truth.
I'm currently using that bloated piece of software dubbed NutScrape, and I still can't stand receiving HTML mail. I still try and battle though to read it (at least I don't have to sort the tags from the text) but it is still difficult. I personally cringe every time I get HTML mail. I suppose it's more frustration than anything else. And when my brother started sending email in HTML... well lets just say he stopped pretty damn quickly ;-)
Reject the text/html mime from Suse List :) ^^^^^^
Sounds good...
Nadeem
P.S. I am not using the word "ban" anymore. :)
;-) Ooh, you really opened up a can of worms Bobby... Chris -- __ _ -o)/ / (_)__ __ ____ __ Chris Reeves /\\ /__/ / _ \/ // /\ \/ / ICQ# 22219005 _\_v __/_/_//_/\_,_/ /_/\_\ -- To unsubscribe send e-mail to suse-linux-e-unsubscribe@suse.com For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the FAQ at http://www.suse.com/Support/Doku/FAQ/
Hi.
At 17:22 on 29 Feb 00, Nadeem Hasan begun to yabber about "Re: [SLE] Plain text vs HTML text.."
Date sent: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 17:22:29 -0500
From: Nadeem Hasan
My personal opinion is that people who send HTML mail to a list are really brain dead. They should know that not everyone is using bloated software. I am being harsh but its the truth.
I do not belive that someone qualifies as "Brain Dead" simply for using a mail client that takes advantage of HTML.. I know many, many people who are far from brain dead and enjoy the increased abilities for formatting that you get with HTML and RT.. I don't think that it should be used extensivly.. But if a change of font is required and the recieving party can handle it, why not use it? Cya Matthew Matthew King: Network Engineer, Cable & Wireless Optus. My ICQ#: 2342475 Message me! Cellular Phone: +61 415 257 516 041 525 7516 (Inside .au) Home e-mail: nerd@zip.com.au Work e-mail: Matthew.King@cwo.net.au Homepage: http://www.zip.com.au/~nerd/ -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.12 GIT d+ s: a--- C++++ UL++++ P+ L+++ E---- W++ N++ o++ K w O- M- V- PS+ PE Y+ PGP- t+ 5++++ X++ R+ tv++ b+++ DI+++++ D++ G+++ e* h* r++ y+ ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ -- To unsubscribe send e-mail to suse-linux-e-unsubscribe@suse.com For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the FAQ at http://www.suse.com/Support/Doku/FAQ/
On Fri, 03 Mar 2000, Matthew King wrote:
I do not belive that someone qualifies as "Brain Dead" simply for using a mail client that takes advantage of HTML.. I know many, many people who are far from brain dead and enjoy the increased abilities for formatting that you get with HTML and RT..
Hmm. Once in a while, for personal communication, HTML or RT is just fine, so long as both parties have negotiated a common ground before the mail is sent, recieved, and forwarded to /dev/null.
I don't think that it should be used extensivly.. But if a change of font is required and the recieving party can handle it, why not use it?
You missed the point about 10 messages ago. We're talking about a public forum, where common ground must be found amongst +1200 users (this list). See above. -- -=|JP|=- Jon Pennington | Atipa Linux Solutions -o) jpennington@atipa.com | Kansas City, MO /\\ 816-241-2641 x121 | http://www.atipa.com _\_V -- To unsubscribe send e-mail to suse-linux-e-unsubscribe@suse.com For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the FAQ at http://www.suse.com/Support/Doku/FAQ/
On Fri, 03 Mar 2000, Matthew King wrote:
I do not belive that someone qualifies as "Brain Dead" simply for using a mail client that takes advantage of HTML.. I know many, many people who are far from brain dead and enjoy the increased abilities for formatting that you get with HTML and RT..
Well if that someone insists on sending HTML formatted junk to a mailing list where the least common denominator can be a console screen with "mail" program as the client, I don't see why not! Oh Yes. Nadeem -- To unsubscribe send e-mail to suse-linux-e-unsubscribe@suse.com For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the FAQ at http://www.suse.com/Support/Doku/FAQ/
Jon Pennington wrote:
True, some of us <waving hand in the air> use mail clients that are feature-poor or otherwise sub-optimized; does that mean we should be punished for choosing software that suits our needs? Should we be ostracized from the community that values individuality above all else? Hell, let's make it so that any messages not sent with Microsoft Outlook 2000 are automatically rejected by the transport agent at suse.com!! Is everybody with me?!?!
Amen and amen again! Jan -- To unsubscribe send e-mail to suse-linux-e-unsubscribe@suse.com For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the FAQ at http://www.suse.com/Support/Doku/FAQ/
Jon Pennington wrote:
On Tue, 29 Feb 2000, Bobby Geortgilakis wrote:
<html>
<br>Hi all, <p>I've had some feedback, that "many" (two actually so far....), on the list are HTML challenged & would like to check this out on the list proper. <p>So, is HTML a hassle to enalbe/read or are the plain text guys still stuck in the 1950's, not that is is the year 2000 or anything like that? ;-) <p>Greek Geek :-) <br> <p>Calligraphy rules! -- Greek Geek</html>
Actually, I am using a reasonably modern mail client (KMail), and I can't read this garbage without saving the message to a file, doing something like `w3c -dump filename > filename2', then trying to cut and paste filename2 into a reply. Then you have the headache of somebody reading a long thread, deciding to post to it, and then mangling everything in that reply to conform to the so-called HTML standard.
personally, I *hate* HTML stuff, particulary in lists. This is still good here, but in the samba list it's all HTML source. I do not mind HTML for personal mail, since I use netscape. Had a HTML mail from a friend. The instant I pressed reply, netscape went bang. It was written with word97, had a lot of garbage and 8 short lines of text. 80% garbage HTML info... I can accept the occasional error by misconfiguration, my fears are that the "new" and "nice" stuff turns to be a "standard", claimed to be "the standard" by people that use it. The help you get from a list won't be better if you use a big colored font in a cry for help, maybe even less. There are "easy" ways onverting to plain text, maybe in the list archives. I sort HTML stuff to a special folder (were Jon's answer popped up as well) and usually delete the stuff.
The truth is that there are only a handful of mail clients (actually, Nutscrape Mail is the only one that comes to mind) that truly handles HTML *natively*. pine and mutt (amongst others) can be *adapted* (through the use of a .mailcap file) to read it, but they promptly make any reply standard text.
True, some of us <waving hand in the air> use mail clients that are feature-poor or otherwise sub-optimized; does that mean we should be punished for choosing software that suits our needs? Should we be ostracized from the community that values individuality above all else? Hell, let's make it so that any messages not sent with Microsoft Outlook 2000 are automatically rejected by the transport agent at suse.com!! Is everybody with me?!?!
At this time I am. Some are still forced by circumstances to use M$ (I use exchange at work. sending to the list from there would *instantly* turn me into ashes by the flames from the list, caused by all the rubbish that exchange / our X400 gateway adds to a mail...) I realy like to see HTML vanish, cause the attitude of some HTML mailing people makes my blood boil. Juergen
-- =========================================== __ _ Juergen Braukmann juergen.braukmann@gmx.de| -o)/ / (_)__ __ ____ __ Tel: 0201-743648 dk4jb@db0qs.#nrw.deu.eu | /\\ /__/ / _ \/ // /\ \/ / ===========================================_\_v __/_/_//_/\_,_/ /_/\_\ -- To unsubscribe send e-mail to suse-linux-e-unsubscribe@suse.com For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the FAQ at http://www.suse.com/Support/Doku/FAQ/
Heyas, Bobby - Problems on this end would include Netscape throwing a quantum-grade hissy-fit if i ever want to respond to an html message, i.e., read html message, click reply, and {poof!}, no more netscape. Plain text messages are much easier on the bandwidth, as well.
I've had some feedback, that "many" (two actually so far....), on the list are HTML challenged & would like to check this out on the list proper.
So, is HTML a hassle to enalbe/read or are the plain text guys still stuck in the 1950's, not that is is the year 2000 or anything like that? ;-)
that' $0.02 CDN...<grin> $0.02250 NZ... Alpha -- To unsubscribe send e-mail to suse-linux-e-unsubscribe@suse.com For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the FAQ at http://www.suse.com/Support/Doku/FAQ/
When Netscape is stable and can handle more than one POP server, maybe it will be reasonable to expect/demand that everyone use a HTML enabled e-mail client. What this gains besides the opportunity to indulge in font bloat, additional imcompatibility (No I don't have Old Western on my system), and geek macho escapes me. IMO Jeffrey -- To unsubscribe send e-mail to suse-linux-e-unsubscribe@suse.com For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the FAQ at http://www.suse.com/Support/Doku/FAQ/
If you want a better Netscape, make a better Netscape. Since Microsoft set out to destroy Netscape Communication inc. by dumping their product on the market in an effort to "cut off their air supply" (BG) Netscape lacked the financial resources to continue to develop their product in the traditional "cathedral" development model. They bet the company on making Mozilla OSS. I've heard some gripes about their license agreement, but it's a hellofalot better than Microsoft's. At least Netscape has a desire to support Linux. They did an incredible job in revolutionizing many aspects of the Internet only to have Microsoft take their open standards and try to turn them into nonstandard. One day soon I hope my development skills will be to the point that I can get in and hack some KDE code and add more browser functionality to it. For now Mozilla is the only game in town. http://www.mozilla.org "Jeffrey L . Taylor" wrote:
When Netscape is stable and can handle more than one POP server, maybe it will be reasonable to expect/demand that everyone use a HTML enabled e-mail client. What this gains besides the opportunity to indulge in font bloat, additional imcompatibility (No I don't have Old Western on my system), and geek macho escapes me.
IMO Jeffrey
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"Steven T. Hatton" wrote:
If you want a better Netscape, make a better Netscape. Since Microsoft set out to destroy Netscape Communication inc. by dumping their product on
I'm not asking for anything special from Netscape just don't crash every 30 minutes. The Windows version is more stable. Netscape for Linux is the most unstable release software I've ever seen. Nick -- -------------------------------------------------- Nick Zentena "Microsoft has unjustifiably jeopardized the stability and security of the operating system." U.S. District Judge Thomas Penfield Jackson Nov 5/1999 -------------------------------------------------- -- To unsubscribe send e-mail to suse-linux-e-unsubscribe@suse.com For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the FAQ at http://www.suse.com/Support/Doku/FAQ/
StarOffice handles text or html by responding 'in kind' automatically. I am running Netscape 4.72 (and it's not worth the download time because it crashes as bad as 4.7) and it seems to be doing the same. JLK "Jeffrey L . Taylor" wrote:
When Netscape is stable and can handle more than one POP server, maybe it will be reasonable to expect/demand that everyone use a HTML enabled e-mail client. What this gains besides the opportunity to indulge in font bloat, additional imcompatibility (No I don't have Old Western on my system), and geek macho escapes me.
IMO Jeffrey
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participants (14)
-
alphafemale＠radiant.net -
bobbyg＠ihug.co.nz -
chris.reeves＠iname.com -
hattons＠CPKWEBSER5.ncr.disa.mil -
j.vermeulen＠hot.A2000.nl -
JerryKreps＠alltel.net -
jhoepner＠tvsw.org -
jpennington＠atipa.com -
juergen.braukmann＠ruhr-west.de -
muskrat＠texas.net -
nerd＠zip.com.au -
nhasan＠usa.net -
rcurry＠thcs.com -
zentena＠hophead.dyndns.org