[opensuse] openSUSE 12.1 is not a major release
Dennis Gallien wrote:
But no matter what the resources or processes, nor how long the schedule, there will always be issues with any new major release.
Perhaps, but openSUSE 12.1 is not a major release. We don't have any such major/minor planning, 12.1 is a largely arbitrary number.
My frame of reference is having worked in both the lab and as a field engineer at one of the largest hardware manufacturers (who btw write much more sw than MS). It was our policy to discourage customers from immediately upgrading to a new release unless it contained a feature or fix which was truly imperative to their business. This policy was the same at our major competitors. Sometimes we preferred to backport a patch (if feasible) rather than compel an upgrade.
I completely understand your frame of reference, but it simply does not apply here. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (4.0°C) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Tue, Nov 22, 2011 at 11:43:30PM +0100, Per Jessen wrote:
Dennis Gallien wrote:
But no matter what the resources or processes, nor how long the schedule, there will always be issues with any new major release.
Perhaps, but openSUSE 12.1 is not a major release. We don't have any such major/minor planning, 12.1 is a largely arbitrary number.
Yes, all openSUSE releases are major release. ;) Ciao, Marcus -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 22/11/11 19:43, Per Jessen wrote:
I completely understand your frame of reference, but it simply does not apply here.
Correct, numbers mean absolutely nothing, a release should be understood more realistically as: "we stopped integration of new components, freezed stuff, fixed most major bugs, tested it for a while and release a new version" ;) The codebase is already unfreezed for the next release cycle.. btw. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Tuesday, November 22, 2011 05:43 PM Per Jessen wrote:
Dennis Gallien wrote:
But no matter what the resources or processes, nor how long the schedule, there will always be issues with any new major release.
Perhaps, but openSUSE 12.1 is not a major release. We don't have any such major/minor planning, 12.1 is a largely arbitrary number.
I understand that the release numbering is essentially a sequential number without any particular inherent meaning. I meant "major" in the general sense of "substantial changes", in which in this release some might include for example systemd, the 3.x kernel, the new Gnome Shell, and the new KDE PIM architecture. People can debate whether something specifically is "major" or not but the key point is that in the aggregate there is the potential for a major impact on users. I intended "major" in the subjective sense, not as a vendor term. Apologies for not having clarified that.
My frame of reference is having worked in both the lab and as a field engineer at one of the largest hardware manufacturers (who btw write much more sw than MS). It was our policy to discourage customers from immediately upgrading to a new release unless it contained a feature or fix which was truly imperative to their business. This policy was the same at our major competitors. Sometimes we preferred to backport a patch (if feasible) rather than compel an upgrade.
I completely understand your frame of reference, but it simply does not apply here.
I was trying to share just an example of the principle of setting expectations and good preparation before encouraging an immediate upgrade, and our providing substantive guidance and tools to support that approach which IME results not only in happier (and more) users but also better utilization of our scarce resources. Could you elaborate on how this does not apply? Or perhaps I am missing your point altogether? (It certainly wouldn't be the first time :) Thanks, --Dennis -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Dennis Gallien wrote:
My frame of reference is having worked in both the lab and as a field engineer at one of the largest hardware manufacturers (who btw write much more sw than MS). It was our policy to discourage customers from immediately upgrading to a new release unless it contained a feature or fix which was truly imperative to their business. This policy was the same at our major competitors. Sometimes we preferred to backport a patch (if feasible) rather than compel an upgrade.
I completely understand your frame of reference, but it simply does not apply here.
I was trying to share just an example of the principle of setting expectations and good preparation before encouraging an immediate upgrade, and our providing substantive guidance and tools to support that approach which IME results not only in happier (and more) users but also better utilization of our scarce resources.
Yes, like I said, I complete understand where you are coming from.
Could you elaborate on how this does not apply? Or perhaps I am missing your point altogether? (It certainly wouldn't be the first time :)
It doesn't apply because the organisation of openSUSE is just not comparable to that of a commercial organisation. Also, openSUSE does not, in my opinion, have the same concern for the openSUSE users or customers as a commercial organisation would have. If an openSUSE user upgrades and (for whatever reason) ends up being really annoyed, perhaps even losing data (hypothetically), he can huff and puff as much as he wants, it won't change much. In a former life I was a software engineer with a large US corporation. After a badly handled support case, we (well, the head of engineering) had a very strained conversation with a very irate CIO from a large Swiss bank. It went along the lines of "if you don't have somebody here tomorrow morning, we'll move your boxes out into the car park for you to pick up". It's apples and oranges - that's why your frame of reference doesn't apply (or isn't really useful). -- Per Jessen, Zürich (3.7°C) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Wednesday, 2011-11-23 at 17:51 +0100, Per Jessen wrote:
It's apples and oranges - that's why your frame of reference doesn't apply (or isn't really useful).
However, if openSUSE doesn't work, neither will SLES later on. We are their testing ground. And if the "unvoluntary testers" get too pissed, then they lose their testing ground. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. (from 11.4 x86_64 "Celadon" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) iEUEARECAAYFAk7Nn9MACgkQtTMYHG2NR9W2+QCVFDd331ZgM522Scb/lIQazvSS hQCfeEMlAbIqVmO7oDde0auK+kzuTQc= =UUek -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 11/24/2011 02:37 AM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
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On Wednesday, 2011-11-23 at 17:51 +0100, Per Jessen wrote:
It's apples and oranges - that's why your frame of reference doesn't apply (or isn't really useful).
However, if openSUSE doesn't work, neither will SLES later on. We are their testing ground. And if the "unvoluntary testers" get too pissed, then they lose their testing ground.
No, we're not - anymore - the testing ground, openSUSE is upstream of SLES, Andreas -- Andreas Jaeger, Program Manager openSUSE, aj@{novell.com,opensuse.org} Twitter: jaegerandi | Identica: jaegerandi SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) Maxfeldstr. 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany GPG fingerprint = 93A3 365E CE47 B889 DF7F FED1 389A 563C C272 A126 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Wednesday, November 23, 2011 11:51 AM Per Jessen wrote:
Dennis Gallien wrote:
[snip]
It doesn't apply because the organisation of openSUSE is just not comparable to that of a commercial organisation. Also, openSUSE does not, in my opinion, have the same concern for the openSUSE users or customers as a commercial organisation would have. If an openSUSE user upgrades and (for whatever reason) ends up being really annoyed, perhaps even losing data (hypothetically), he can huff and puff as much as he wants, it won't change much.
[snip]
It's apples and oranges - that's why your frame of reference doesn't apply (or isn't really useful).
I suspected that was your point, but wanted to confirm. And may I suggest that this raises a very important issue/question that frankly I've been unclear about for a long time. Actually, I think we are largely in agreement, except perhaps in one important respect: If some here are supporting groups of internal customers or all the more so external customers, then those users will not give us a pass just because we are not commercial (posts here and on the forums demonstrate this loudly). While perhaps a legitimate argument can be made to those users that their expectations are inappropriately high for community software, as you and I know from our commercial background, end-users are just not receptive to "excuses". All they care about is whether it "just works" and they can get their job done. Probably both of us have had conversations with users along these lines and have the scars to prove it. When it comes to desktop end-users whom we are presumably trying to attract to openSUSE and whose frame of reference is a commercial product - Windows - this applies all the more so. If we cannot provide the quality and stability that they expect, and they are nearly helpless to resolve upgrade issues, then for the vast majority of them our only substantive value proposition is that our software is free (other values such as "open source" are largely an abstraction to them). So you've put your finger directly on the question I was trying to raise (if I may paraphrase): "openSUSE doesn't have the same concern for users or customers, and regardless of problems users may experience and how much they complain, it won't change much". Assuming your premise is correct, then that argues for much better clarity in who this project is intended for and who we are working to attract as new members. My initial thought re setting expectations and better preparing/supporting the upgrade process is based on my understanding (perhaps incorrect, but again IMHO I've never seen this clearly articulated) that we are trying to grow our community primarily from users as described above. And, hence, if we cannot deliver a highly stable out-of-the-box major upgrade (certainly "major" for them) process for them, then we need to either improve that process and/or reduce/restructure the deliverables and/or do more to set expectations and prepare/support the upgrade (or some combination thereof). Otherwise, we will not appreciably grow. If on the other hand our real target users are those like most of us, i.e., intermediate and power users, sysadmins, developers, engineers, free-software disciples, etc. then I entirely withdraw my initial recommendations. While we should expect there to be no genuine "show-stopper" bugs, otherwise the vast majority of us and others that may join us are able to work thru the inevitable glitches in a new release. Some of us will (and many do) wait for later stability, others will jump in immediately. We understand the trade-offs. We may get frustrated, but we certainly shouldn't be surprised. As originally a Red Hat user (coming prev from Unix), it was very clear who the primary target user was, as is Fedora now, i.e., the IT professional. I switched to SuSE simply because IMO SuSE did a better job; but the target user was essentially the same. Then distros - and new linux businesses - seriously targeted the desktop, and a heckuva lot changed. And while there has been some modest successes, most failed (even the commercial attempts), other of course than Ubuntu. It delivers far less than openSUSE, but clearly its "just works" strategy has been by far the most successful attracting new users from Windows. (And of course, in fairness, it's quite relevant that the most successful projects are those with solid commercial backing.) My hypothesis is that the project cannot be all things to all those who have been with us from the SuSE days while at the same time meeting the expectations of the huge and highly diverse (but very non-technical) desktop users brainwashed by MS, along the way trying to deliver more than even our larger competitors. That approach is ultimately unsustainable. Thanks for your reply. --Dennis -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
If on the other hand our real target users are those like most of us, i.e., intermediate and power users, sysadmins, developers, engineers, free-software disciples, etc. then I entirely withdraw my initial recommendations. While we should expect there to be no genuine "show-stopper" bugs, otherwise the vast majority of us and others that may join us are able to work thru the inevitable glitches in a new release. Some of us will (and many do) wait for later stability, others will jump in immediately. We understand the trade-offs. We may get frustrated, but we certainly shouldn't be surprised. The above quote is more our target. "Linux for adults." Though we don't mind
On Thursday, November 24, 2011 01:08:12 PM Dennis Gallien wrote: the newb, we have no intention of dumbing down any of our tech. If you want commercial grade stability and support you get SUSE Linux Enterprise, openSUSE has no warranties. -- Roger Luedecke openSUSE Ambassador Ind. Repairs and Consulting **Looking for a C++ etc. mentor*** -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Thursday, November 24, 2011 01:31 PM Roger Luedecke wrote:
On Thursday, November 24, 2011 01:08:12 PM Dennis Gallien wrote:
If on the other hand our real target users are those like most of us, i.e., intermediate and power users, sysadmins, developers, engineers, free-software disciples, etc. then I entirely withdraw my initial recommendations. While we should expect there to be no genuine "show-stopper" bugs, otherwise the vast majority of us and others that may join us are able to work thru the inevitable glitches in a new release. Some of us will (and many do) wait for later stability, others will jump in immediately. We understand the trade-offs. We may get frustrated, but we certainly shouldn't be surprised.
The above quote is more our target. "Linux for adults." Though we don't mind the newb, we have no intention of dumbing down any of our tech. If you want commercial grade stability and support you get SUSE Linux Enterprise, openSUSE has no warranties.
Thx for the reply, although linux for "adults" might be a bit, er, undiplomatic. :) Personally, I'm not only fine with that focus, I prefer it. If this has been clearly communicated in our public positioning and announcements for potential new users coming from Windows, I sure have missed it and apologize profusely. Mea culpa. Perhaps you would point me to what I've overlooked? Since my concern appears to have been one of messaging rather than project strategy (and since you are an Ambassador), may I also just add that IMHO the "not for beginners" message (or some qualification thereof, such as "beginners but only the adventurous") is missing from the user forums. Maybe that has changed in the last couple years, and if so, a second mea culpa. But having spent a heckuva lot of time working the forums, I can testify to the (painful) wave of beginners that hit us following every release. Eventually I couldn't afford the time any longer. That's why I switched to the mailing lists where, ya know, more of the adults live ;-) 'Nough said. This has taken a lot more of folks' time than intended. Thanks much again, for the clarification. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Thursday, November 24, 2011 01:31 PM Roger Luedecke wrote:
On Thursday, November 24, 2011 01:08:12 PM Dennis Gallien wrote:
If on the other hand our real target users are those like most of us, i.e., intermediate and power users, sysadmins, developers, engineers, free-software disciples, etc. then I entirely withdraw my initial recommendations. While we should expect there to be no genuine "show-stopper" bugs, otherwise the vast majority of us and others that may join us are able to work thru the inevitable glitches in a new release. Some of us will (and many do) wait for later stability, others will jump in immediately. We understand the trade-offs. We may get frustrated, but we certainly shouldn't be surprised.
The above quote is more our target. "Linux for adults." Though we don't mind the newb, we have no intention of dumbing down any of our tech. If you want commercial grade stability and support you get SUSE Linux Enterprise, openSUSE has no warranties.
Thx for the reply, although linux for "adults" might be a bit, er, undiplomatic. :)
Personally, I'm not only fine with that focus, I prefer it.
If this has been clearly communicated in our public positioning and announcements for potential new users coming from Windows, I sure have missed it and apologize profusely. Mea culpa. Perhaps you would point me to what I've overlooked?
Since my concern appears to have been one of messaging rather than project strategy (and since you are an Ambassador), may I also just add that IMHO the "not for beginners" message (or some qualification thereof, such as "beginners but only the adventurous") is missing from the user forums. Maybe that has changed in the last couple years, and if so, a second mea culpa. But having spent a heckuva lot of time working the forums, I can testify to the (painful) wave of beginners that hit us following every release. Eventually I couldn't afford the time any longer. That's why I switched to the mailing lists where, ya know, more of the adults live ;-)
'Nough said. This has taken a lot more of folks' time than intended. Thanks much again, for the clarification. Yeah, our marketing could benefit from better clarity and a little less hype and spin. Frankly though, unlike Canonical or RedHat which are very top down... we on the other hand, despite our relation to SUSE are given enormous freedom with our project. Whether that is good or bad is up to the case or the opinion. But what that certainly does mean is that the concept of say "project management" becomes more a matter of herding cats than anything. And thanks to
On Thursday, November 24, 2011 03:43:49 PM Dennis Gallien wrote: the fanboyism of the Gnome and KDE guys, it sometimes is herding two battling herds of cats. -- Roger Luedecke openSUSE Ambassador Ind. Repairs and Consulting **Looking for a C++ etc. mentor*** -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Roger Luedecke said the following on 11/24/2011 05:46 PM:
Yeah, our marketing could benefit from better clarity and a little less hype and spin. Frankly though, unlike Canonical or RedHat which are very top down... we on the other hand, despite our relation to SUSE are given enormous freedom with our project. Whether that is good or bad is up to the case or the opinion. But what that certainly does mean is that the concept of say "project management" becomes more a matter of herding cats than anything. And thanks to the fanboyism of the Gnome and KDE guys, it sometimes is herding two battling herds of cats.
"Cats" is an unfortunate metaphor. Mine are sweethearts, but I realise that the cat family includes Panthers and Pumas (aren't those good names for a programming language?). Given the circumstances the Big Cats are a good match: roaring Lions who think they are the King of the Jungle; tigers; pumas, panthers, leopards... So which are matched to Gnome and KDE fanbois? Definitely not rag-dolls and angoras! Which are probably most people's ideas of 'cats' http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pk7yqlTMvp8 -- "On two occasions I have been asked (by members of Parliament!), 'Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out?' I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question. - Charles Babbage 1791-1871) English computer pioneer, philosopher -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Roger Luedecke said the following on 11/24/2011 05:46 PM:
Yeah, our marketing could benefit from better clarity and a little less hype and spin. Frankly though, unlike Canonical or RedHat which are very top down... we on the other hand, despite our relation to SUSE are given enormous freedom with our project. Whether that is good or bad is up to the case or the opinion. But what that certainly does mean is that the concept of say "project management" becomes more a matter of herding cats than anything. And thanks to the fanboyism of the Gnome and KDE guys, it sometimes is herding two battling herds of cats.
"Cats" is an unfortunate metaphor. Mine are sweethearts, but I realise that the cat family includes Panthers and Pumas (aren't those good names for a programming language?). Imagine having hundreds of cats in an open field, and cowboys circling them
On Thursday, November 24, 2011 06:19:41 PM Anton Aylward wrote: trying to herd them in one direction as one would do sheep. Then you see it is an apt metaphor. Now imagine two of these herds, each occasionaly wishing to do battle with each other while the cowboys are trying to get ALL the cats moving in the same direction.
-- Roger Luedecke openSUSE Ambassador Ind. Repairs and Consulting **Looking for a C++ etc. mentor*** -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Roger Luedecke said the following on 11/24/2011 06:32 PM:
"Cats" is an unfortunate metaphor. Mine are sweethearts, but I realise that the cat family includes Panthers and Pumas (aren't those good names for a programming language?).
Imagine having hundreds of cats in an open field, and cowboys circling them trying to herd them in one direction as one would do sheep. Then you see it is an apt metaphor.
As I said in my previous email, but which your trimmed out http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pk7yqlTMvp8 Even so, I train my cats to come when I call. (Of course ratting a tube of cat treats when I call does help)
Now imagine two of these herds, each occasionaly wishing to do battle with each other while the cowboys are trying to get ALL the cats moving in the same direction.
I think you attribute too much to their motivation. Cats are territorial and if there _were_ two herds that met they would of course be fights, but they would be one -on-one. That's how cats are. Even so, I doubt your metaphor matches. I've done the Sysadmin and ProjectManager thing and when it comes to cat-spats I know I can scream at them and they stop, or I pick each one up by the scruff of the neck in each hand. That paralyses them you know: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rturBPWFgFw http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EDMSgTAkVzc&feature=related This is how a mother cat carries kittens. No, the proper metaphor is "Pumas on powerbikes": http://www.monkeybagel.com/pumas.html Pumas on powerbikes with opposable thumbs and chainguns. Each going in their own direction. Each with their own motivation. (BTDT - FTFAL) *NOT* opposing armies, but sheer Brownian Chaos. http://projecteuclid.org/DPubS/Repository/1.0/Disseminate?view=body&id=pdf_1&handle=euclid.bj/1068129009 -- A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects. -- Robert A. Heinlein, "Time Enough for Love" -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Dennis Gallien wrote:
While perhaps a legitimate argument can be made to those users that their expectations are inappropriately high for community software, as you and I know from our commercial background, end-users are just not receptive to "excuses". All they care about is whether it "just works" and they can get their job done. Probably both of us have had conversations with users along these lines and have the scars to prove it.
When it comes to desktop end-users whom we are presumably trying to attract to openSUSE and whose frame of reference is a commercial product - Windows - this applies all the more so. If we cannot provide the quality and stability that they expect, and they are nearly helpless to resolve upgrade issues, then for the vast majority of them our only substantive value proposition is that our software is free (other values such as "open source" are largely an abstraction to them).
Right.
So you've put your finger directly on the question I was trying to raise (if I may paraphrase): "openSUSE doesn't have the same concern for users or customers, and regardless of problems users may experience and how much they complain, it won't change much".
Dennis, let me interrupt here - we're talking about openSUSE as if it were a body of people moving and working towards an objective in an orchestrated way. I think that is our mistake. There is no openSUSE objective, no orchestration and no conductor, only a fair amount of coordination/cat-herding supported by SUSE and SUSE infrastructure. As many people will tell you, the direction of openSUSE is determined by the people who do the work.
Assuming your premise is correct, then that argues for much better clarity in who this project is intended for and who we are working to attract as new members. My initial thought re setting expectations and better preparing/supporting the upgrade process is based on my understanding (perhaps incorrect, but again IMHO I've never seen this clearly articulated) that we are trying to grow our community primarily from users as described above.
We do have a strategy: http://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Strategy There is also a portal with some more background: http://en.opensuse.org/Portal:Strategy
And while there has been some modest successes, most failed (even the commercial attempts), other of course than Ubuntu. It delivers far less than openSUSE, but clearly its "just works" strategy has been by far the most successful attracting new users from Windows.
Yes, it is a very attractive proposition for new users as well as admins having to deal with e.g. office users. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (2.8°C) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Friday, November 25, 2011 03:23 AM Per Jessen wrote:
Dennis Gallien wrote:
[long snip] Per, thanks for the thoughtful reply. Your comments (and Roger's, augmented by the subsequent entertaining but meaningful "cats" banter) have provided the clarity I sought. I've failed to keep up to date; I followed the links you provided and must again say, mea culpa. Jumping off at me was Roger's quoted "Linux for Adults" (well, "grown-ups"). And a number of statements which, if I may paraphrase, communicate that we are primarily an inbound-focused group of capable contributing participants looking to grow the community organically. Beginners are welcome, but in exchange the community asks for a willingness to learn, to change, and to contribute. Waaaaaay different than Ubuntu (in reality, Canonical). All very clear now, and again I thank you and Roger for your patience. Penance: I need to revisit the user forums, where I once spent much time. I'm hopeful this clarity is more evident there now, albeit still needing to be conveyed diplomatically and with patience. I feel on firm footing doing so now. I may be old, but I'm not dead yet. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 11/22/2011 04:43 PM, Per Jessen wrote:
I completely understand your frame of reference, but it simply does not apply here.
+1, that is what the commercial offerings are for. -- David C. Rankin, J.D.,P.E. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
participants (9)
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Andreas Jaeger -
Anton Aylward -
Carlos E. R. -
Cristian Rodríguez -
David C. Rankin -
Dennis Gallien -
Marcus Meissner -
Per Jessen -
Roger Luedecke