2008/10/22 Kai Ponte :

On Tuesday 21 October 2008 03:00:45 pm Ken Schneider wrote:

...

Don't get me wrong eye candy appeals to a lot of people, it just doesn't appeal to everyone.

Valid point.

One thing I do like about Vista - not to belabor the point - is that you can have it with all the eye candy...

http://www.perfectreign.com/stuff/2007/20070518_Vista_Connect.jpg

http://www.perfectreign.com/stuff/2008/20081021_vista_desktop.jpg

Or you can have it without, as you see here in what I'm running under virtualbox.

http://www.perfectreign.com/stuff/2008/20080827_vista_plain.jpg

Now, if KDE 4 can do that, I'd be a happy camper. I like all the integration in KDE, so I can see benefits.

KDE 4, even with the desktop eyecandy, if _lighter_ on resources than KDE 3 was. So you have your cake and eat it too. The problem with Vista's eyecandy (and Compiz) is that is comes at the expense of system resources. Not so with KDE 4. You can thank Trolltech and Qt4 for that amazing development. -- Dotan Cohen http://what-is-what.com http://gibberish.co.il א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-נ-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת ä-ö-ü-ß-Ä-Ö-Ü N�����r��y隊Z)z{.�ﮞ˛���m�)z{.��+�Z+i�b�*'jW(�f�vǦj)h���Ǿ��i�������

On Wednesday 22 October 2008, James Knott wrote:

Does it have all the functionality of KDE 3.5 and is it possible to turn off all that annoying eye candy? If the answer to either question is no, then it's crapware.

No, the wording is not correct. Just because it does not work the way you want (and I want too, by the way) does not justify to call it crapware. I can't say what KDE 4 will be in one or two years, perhaps I like it and use it then. For the time being, the added features are useless (to me) and I miss many others. So it's too soon to say good bye to KDE 3.5.x, that was my point. But calling KDE 4 "crapware" is an insult to the developpers work. Thierry -- “Microsoft isn't evil, they just make really crappy operating systems.” Linus Torvald -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Dotan Cohen wrote:

KDE 4, even with the desktop eyecandy, if _lighter_ on resources than KDE 3 was. So you have your cake and eat it too. The problem with Vista's eyecandy (and Compiz) is that is comes at the expense of system resources. Not so with KDE 4.

You can thank Trolltech and Qt4 for that amazing development.

Unfortunately, that's because there isn't much there after you strip the eye-candy away... Let us all hope that will still ring true once KDE 4 attains the functional equivalence of KDE 3. -- David C. Rankin, J.D., P.E. Rankin Law Firm, PLLC www.rankinlawfirm.com -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

2008/10/23 David C. Rankin :

Dotan Cohen wrote:

...

KDE 4, even with the desktop eyecandy, if _lighter_ on resources than KDE 3 was. So you have your cake and eat it too. The problem with Vista's eyecandy (and Compiz) is that is comes at the expense of system resources. Not so with KDE 4.

You can thank Trolltech and Qt4 for that amazing development.

Unfortunately, that's because there isn't much there after you strip the eye-candy away... Let us all hope that will still ring true once KDE 4 attains the functional equivalence of KDE 3.

David, could you address what you are missing? I'll file bug reports and see if it can be added. Go through bugzilla, the KDE devs are for the most part very helpful in adding the missing features. -- Dotan Cohen http://what-is-what.com http://gibberish.co.il א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-נ-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת ä-ö-ü-ß-Ä-Ö-Ü

2008/10/24 Larry Stotler :

On Fri, Oct 24, 2008 at 5:42 AM, Dotan Cohen wrote:

...

David, could you address what you are missing? I'll file bug reports and see if it can be added. Go through bugzilla, the KDE devs are for the most part very helpful in adding the missing features.

Not trying to be smart, but the KDE devs should KNOW what is missing.

How? Their goal was not to recode KDE 3.x and if 3.x has something that _you_ feel is missing then speak up. Everything that the KDE devs felt is missing has been or is being addressed. Same for everything that _I_ feel is missing, as can be seen in the bug reports that I've filed (literally, over one hundred)

That's the problem. They "released" KDE4 way before it was ready and now WE have to go through and figure out what THEY forgot?

That's what a community is. Not US vs THEM.

That's not how it works. I try to give back to the community by doing what testing I can, but I don't have time to sit down and do their job for them.

Then don't code. But if you feel that something is missing, then say what it is.

They are well aware of what doesn't work and what is missing. A large percentage of users have been complaining since they released KDE4.

And still I have not heard what is missing? The wallpaper? The colour of the icons? The Modifier Keys applet? The bugs in Konqueror? What?

I helped to push for the inclusion of KDE3 in 11.1. I don't have the time or the interest to test KDE4( or other things I don't use like openoffice, kaffine, amorak, beagle, etc). I test what I use and give feedback on that as it is needed. I haven't had time to even fully test any of the RC's or Betas yet.

Like I have said before, I'm not against KDE4. I'm just not able to use it as it is now. That's why I have suggested that 11.1 be delayed til 4.2 is released. They are backporting most of the stuff anyway, but doesn't it make sense to get the best, most usable system you can? This is a BIG part of the distro, so it's not like we are waiting on Firefox or something else.

When you tell us what you feel is missing, I will address it. -- Dotan Cohen http://what-is-what.com http://gibberish.co.il א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-נ-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת ä-ö-ü-ß-Ä-Ö-Ü

2008/10/24 Larry Stotler :

On Fri, Oct 24, 2008 at 11:22 AM, Dotan Cohen wrote:

...

How? Their goal was not to recode KDE 3.x and if 3.x has something that _you_ feel is missing then speak up. Everything that the KDE devs felt is missing has been or is being addressed. Same for everything that _I_ feel is missing, as can be seen in the bug reports that I've filed (literally, over one hundred)

I use a limited set of stuff in KDE3 and turn off almost all of the eye candy in it. I also work a full time job, have kids, and other interests outside of Linux.

I have two kids, and I study full time in the university as well.

As I find things, I bring it to the attention of this list, and if a bug report is warrented, I do file them. However, I have neither the time nor the resources to do this. KDE4 is an example of fixing something that wasn't broken in order to add new features.

KDE 4.x is not a 'fix' of KDE 3.x, at least not so far as KDE is concerned. The fact that Suse is dropping support for KDE 3.x is a different matter, but the KDE community still supports 3.x.

...

...

That's the problem. They "released" KDE4 way before it was ready and now WE have to go through and figure out what THEY forgot?

That's what a community is. Not US vs THEM.

The KDE devs have came out like that, not the community.

When? There was the whole "we need devs, not users" thing, but if you are familiar with the details then you would know that the KDE devs were actually arguing the same thing that you are. KDE is still supported, and those who want specific KDE 3 features in KDE 4 need only ask in most cases. But don't expect a bug-for-bug port of KDE 3.x in Qt 4 unless you code it yourself.

They acted like they didn't need the users.

Actually, one dev even said exactly that, but that is taken out of context.

The openSUSE devs are the ones who are doing the leg work to make stuff work. I'm not going to get into that whole situation again. The devs pissed off enough people with some of their comments. And, in a way, they are right. They are coding it for them. But if they expect others to use it, then they need to rethink their roles.

It's the Suse devs who are replacing KDE 3 with 4, not the KDE devs. The KDE devs still support and code for KDE 3.

...

...

That's not how it works. I try to give back to the community by doing what testing I can, but I don't have time to sit down and do their job for them.

Then don't code. But if you feel that something is missing, then say what it is.

I don't code. Couldn't code to save my life. I used to just buy SuSE, but since I can download it now, I try to beta test to give back.

...

And still I have not heard what is missing? The wallpaper? The colour of the icons? The Modifier Keys applet? The bugs in Konqueror? What?

How many times is it necessary to list this? Maybe we should have a wiki page so that it's not continually rehashed here.

Please make that page and send to me a link. Or, feel free to email to me the issues and I will file them.

And to be honest, I haven't even started a KDE4 session in so long, I couldn't even tell you. I did just download the KDE4 livecd for Beta3. When/If I have time to look at it, I'll be sure to leave appropriate feedback.

Please do, thanks.

...

When you tell us what you feel is missing, I will address it.

Actually, as it stands, I don't know that I really care about what is missing. I'll probably continue to use KDE3 for as long as I can. I see no need to fight with something new, when the older version does what I need without all the hassles.

I also plan on sticking with KDE 3.x at least until KDE 4.2 is available. -- Dotan Cohen http://what-is-what.com http://gibberish.co.il א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-נ-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת ä-ö-ü-ß-Ä-Ö-Ü

Basil Chupin wrote:

...

...

Their goal was not to recode KDE 3.x and if 3.x has something that _you_ feel is missing then speak up. Everything that the KDE devs felt is missing has been or is being addressed.

Now, I think that you are contradicting yourself here. *Do* they know what is missing or don't they in order to have things "being addressed"?

From what Dotan Cohen and others in previous threads say, it appears to me that they have decided to rewrite kde from scratch using modern

Well, Basil, it seems to me they're taking a very reasonable approach. Most long-lived programs accumulate lots of stuff that someone long ago thought was cool, or interesting, or ... programming methodologies and incorporating only stuff that they recognize as useful. Larry Stotler has lately become reasonable and started a thread to alert the developers to stuff that people would like to keep or see, that the developers overlooked or discarded. You should now become reasonable and contribute to that thread. John Perry -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Fri, Oct 24, 2008 at 11:26 AM, Felix Miata wrote:

I think the problem is that nobody actually knows all the many many features in KDE3, and thus there is no means to compare between the (probably non-existent) old (KDE3) feature catalog and the (probably non-existent, new) KDE4 catalog to see what's missing.

Then maybe we should start a wiki page to put it all in one place. However, I don't have the time to do it, so if someone would be willing to step up to the plate, then I would do what I can to help as I am able(which is probably on the very little side with the way my life and work is moving right now). I just don't have the time right now.

KDE4 is so different from KDE3 that there should probably be a fork that users can stick with until such time as the KDE4 feature set rises to a similar caliber as that of KDE3, if it ever does. At the rate it's going, I wouldn't expect that to happen by KDE 4.2, or even 4.3 or 4.4. Maybe two years from now KDE4 might be ready to make such a claim, but I wouldn't bet on it.

It's the main features that a lot of people are missing. That's why it's so irriating. They've added all this and all that and forgot where they came from. I for one don't need "widgets" on my desktop. No a lot of that other crap like Compiz, etc. For those that do, hey, it's their perogative. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Fri, Oct 24, 2008 at 1:14 PM, Dotan Cohen wrote:

Then send me the features list and I'll make the page. Comments like "main features" mean nothing. Be specific, don't make me guess.

I'll start a new thread asking for everyone to give us what we need if you are willing to get it up and running. We should have a way to list stuff that people feel is missing or not working properly, and a way to "cross" them off as they are fixed with what version they are in. While a lot of us on this list has moved up to the build service, please keep in mind that a lot of users have not done so, and they may start reporting things that are fixed. I'll ask people to try to be specific as to what version of KDE4 they are actually running. Thanx -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

2008/10/24 Larry Stotler :

On Fri, Oct 24, 2008 at 1:24 PM, Larry Stotler wrote:

...

I'll start a new thread asking for everyone to give us what we need if you are willing to get it up and running.

Done.

Titled:

What features is KDE4 missing when compared to KDE3?

First Post: http://en.opensuse.org/What_features_is_KDE4_missing_when_compared_to_KDE3 -- Dotan Cohen http://what-is-what.com http://gibberish.co.il א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-נ-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת ä-ö-ü-ß-Ä-Ö-Ü

2008/10/24 Larry Stotler :

2008/10/24 Dotan Cohen :

...

First Post: http://en.opensuse.org/What_features_is_KDE4_missing_when_compared_to_KDE3

From reading your bug report, it seems that they don't seem to understand the need for this to be ported.

Correct.

It also shows that they need to come up with a list to compare what they haven't ported and a timeline for porting or a reason to not port something.

I think that they are taking the opposite approach: only what has been shown to be needed will be ported. I hope to see your items on the wiki page so that we can open bugs for them. Shall I take it upon myself to make sure that each item on the page gets a bug report? -- Dotan Cohen http://what-is-what.com http://gibberish.co.il א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-נ-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת ä-ö-ü-ß-Ä-Ö-Ü N�����r��y隊Z)z{.�ﮞ˛���m�)z{.��+�Z+i�b�*'jW(�f�vǦj)h���Ǿ��i�������

2008/10/24 Larry Stotler :

On Fri, Oct 24, 2008 at 4:34 PM, Dotan Cohen wrote:

...

I think that they are taking the opposite approach: only what has been shown to be needed will be ported.

And that may not be so bad for some things. But, IMO, they have put too much effort into non essential stuff.

Good point, especially with Plasma. The goal with Plasma was to redefine the "desktop" and Aaron most certainly did that. I really, really like the KDE 4 idea of was a desktop is despite the fact that I never liked widgets | gadgets or eyecandy.

While KDE3 isn't perfect, it's mostly solid and reliable. KDE4 is a radical change. If there was a need for things like widgets, it would be different.

...

I hope to see your items on the wiki page so that we can open bugs for them. Shall I take it upon myself to make sure that each item on the page gets a bug report?

That's up to you. Are we going to try to report against KDE or openSUSE? There are a lot of openSUSE devs who work on KDE as well.

I will report upstream at KDE. -- Dotan Cohen http://what-is-what.com http://gibberish.co.il א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-נ-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת ä-ö-ü-ß-Ä-Ö-Ü

2008/10/25 Andreas Jaeger :

"Dotan Cohen" writes:

...

[...] Then send me the features list and I'll make the page. Comments like "main features" mean nothing. Be specific, don't make me guess.

We had this discussion a couple of weeks ago on the opensuse-factory list and I made a blog post on lizards.opensuse.org about it summarizing those *few* features that people came up with, I suggest to use that as a starting point,

Andreas

Thanks, Andreas, please post the items that you feel are relevant to this page: http://en.opensuse.org/What_features_is_KDE4_missing_when_compared_to_KDE3 I will do my best to keep BKO in sync with the developments on that page. -- Dotan Cohen http://what-is-what.com http://gibberish.co.il א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-נ-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת ä-ö-ü-ß-Ä-Ö-Ü

2008/10/25 Richard :

This page needs to be linked from HIGHLY visible pages within the openSUSE wiki and other pages, such as similar pages/help pages at KDE.org. If it isn't, then it will be hard to find, relatively unused and the 'lack of interest' is almost certainly going to be interpreted by the 4.x zealots as an indication that 4.x is good enough and nothing of importance from 3.5.x remains to be done so why the fuss?

Again, in addition to official SuSE wiki pages and KDE wiki pages, how about a 'sticky' in at least the KDE forum and openSuSE forums likely to be visited by people looking for help with installation, etc. These 'stickies' should point to the feedback wiki page "http://en.opensuse.org/What_features_is_KDE4_missing_when_compared_to_KDE3" as well as any appropriate guidelines for how and what to put into the supplied entries.

Currently, there is little or no easy way to find the wiki page that I can find. The 'links to this page' on the wiki state: http://en.opensuse.org/What_features_is_KDE4_missing_when_compared_to_KDE3

Quote: What features is KDE4 missing when compared to KDE3

No pages link to here.

Had the URL not been in this thread, I would not have found it and apparantly, only 2 or 3 others have manaaged to do so also at this point.

Agreed, the page should be more visible.

The other 'problem' I see with the page is the assumption that a novice (to wiki editing) such as myself would have a clue about how to add their input/comments. A short paragraph about HOW to add your comment, or a 'form' or popup page or some such would help. For instance, it mentions each user should enter stuff with asterick, but none of the entries have an asterick. I know what a tilde is, but it is quite possible people who speak other than English as their first lanaguage might not know what it is, how about '~~~~' as an example in the text when they ask for 4 of them.

Actually, when I wrote that, I did not even know how to edit a wiki either. I thought to myself "what must I do to edit this thing" and within 5 minutes and some google I know enough to format the page as you now see it. There are links right there on the Edit page as well. -- Dotan Cohen http://what-is-what.com http://gibberish.co.il א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-נ-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת ä-ö-ü-ß-Ä-Ö-Ü

2008/10/25 Richard :

On Sat October 25 2008 4:37:50 pm Dotan Cohen wrote:

...

...

Had the URL not been in this thread, I would not have found it and apparantly, only 2 or 3 others have manaaged to do so also at this point.

Agreed, the page should be more visible.

...

The other 'problem' I see with the page is the assumption that a novice (to wiki editing) such as myself would have a clue about how to add their input/comments. A short paragraph about HOW to add your comment, or a 'form' or popup page or some such would help. For instance, it mentions each user should enter stuff with asterick, but none of the entries have an asterick. I know what a tilde is, but it is quite possible people who speak other than English as their first lanaguage might not know what it is, how about '~~~~' as an example in the text when they ask for 4 of them.

Actually, when I wrote that, I did not even know how to edit a wiki either. I thought to myself "what must I do to edit this thing" and within 5 minutes and some google I know enough to format the page as you now see it. There are links right there on the Edit page as well.

First, I commend you for taking a positive approach. I'm not sure the Devs will actually 'listen', but if your approach to the problem actually does work, I, for one, will be hightly appreciative of your efforts.

That said, and with regard to 'links and google' searching, how about a hotlink right in that initial paragraph where you mention examples maybe '...then just look at the examples (help page) ...', where you summarize what you learned during your searches. Many people using google would be intimidated just knowing what to search for. If you just put in WIKI in the search, you get thousands of hits for instance. So, before even going to the edit page, a quick tutorial/summary of how and what (in a linked page) would be a real asset.

Again, your efforts are appreciated by me at least, and I feel are steps in the right direction.

Richard

They need only look at the prior examples now. If the user is competent enough identify a missing feature, motivated enough to do something about it, and talented enough to write a coherent feature request, then I am willing to assume that he can copy+paste a previous example and fit it to his needs. Regarding the KDE devs, they've handled tens of "missing in KDE4" bug reports that I've personally seen just as a casual bug filer, and I doubt that I've seen the bulk of it. Many things are still missing, but not because of apathy on the part of the KDE devs. -- Dotan Cohen http://what-is-what.com http://gibberish.co.il א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-נ-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת ä-ö-ü-ß-Ä-Ö-Ü

2008/10/27 Robert Smits :

I echo Richard's appreciation, Dotan, but want to point out that a great many of us don't know what features may be missing since KDE4 apparently has so many changes and missing features we're not willing to invest the time in experimenting with KDE4.

Then I recommend that you guys stick with KDE 3.x, as it is supported by KDE. That might mean sticking with an older (but still supported) version of Opensuse, however. That is what I am doing. However, when you get some time download a copy of KDE 4 and experiment with the features that you use. You will quickly find out what is missing. That's what I do: I test drove the Kubuntu 8.10 alphas and betas (I don't have time for the RC). I filed lots of bugs. By the way, KDE 4.2 will likely have all but the corner cases taken care of. So you should probably wait for that version before testdriving.

What I can tell you is what's important to me:

KDEPIM working with all it's regular features - kmail, knode,korganizer, kaggregator, kaddressbook, kweather. I need Kpilot to work, too. And amarok, kaffeine and k3b.

This is bad at the moment. Kmail and Akregator are much improved, but Korganizer is a mess. Knode and Kpilot I don't use, Kaddressbook seems relatively unchanged, kweather I did not test, Amarok and K3B work great. Kaffeine I did not test. I will add the Kontact bugs that I am involved with to the wiki page (http://en.opensuse.org/What_features_is_KDE4_missing_when_compared_to_KDE3) when I get a chance to double check them, probably next week.

All the other stuff I use daily like OO and gnucash isn't particularly affected by what KDE4 does.

I don't know how much of all this is already working but these are the things I worry about, not eye candy.

Thanks for the input! -- Dotan Cohen http://what-is-what.com http://gibberish.co.il א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-נ-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת ä-ö-ü-ß-Ä-Ö-Ü

On Sat, Oct 25, 2008 at 12:53 PM, Richard wrote:

For instance, it mentions each user should enter stuff with asterick, but none of the entries have an asterick. it is quite possible people who speak other than English as their first lanaguage might not know what it is

I know I don't know what the heck an asterick is. http://wsu.edu/~brians/errors/asterick.html -- ----------JSA--------- Someone stole my tag line, so now I have this rental. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Saturday 25 October 2008 16:22, John Andersen wrote:

...

it is quite possible people who speak other than English as their first lanaguage might not know what it is

I know I don't know what the heck an asterick is. asterisk

* <==== that thing -- Kind regards, M Harris <>< -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Doug McGarrett wrote:

On Saturday 25 October 2008 17:22, John Andersen wrote:

...

On Sat, Oct 25, 2008 at 12:53 PM, Richard wrote:

...

For instance, it mentions each user should enter stuff with asterick, but none of the entries have an asterick. it is quite possible people who speak other than English as their first lanaguage might not know what it is I know I don't know what the heck an asterick is.

An "asterick" properly spelled "asterisk" is this: * which is derived from the Latin word (aster) for star.

--doug

Doug, for pete sake, it was a joke about a typo!!! -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

John Andersen wrote:

Doug McGarrett wrote:

...

On Saturday 25 October 2008 17:22, John Andersen wrote:

...

On Sat, Oct 25, 2008 at 12:53 PM, Richard wrote:

...

For instance, it mentions each user should enter stuff with asterick, but none of the entries have an asterick. it is quite possible people who speak other than English as their first lanaguage might not know what it is

I know I don't know what the heck an asterick is.

An "asterick" properly spelled "asterisk" is this: * which is derived from the Latin word (aster) for star.

--doug

Doug, for pete sake, it was a joke about a typo!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KTwnwbG9YLE ;-) -- Use OpenOffice.org http://www.openoffice.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

In the panel at the bottom of the default gnome screen is a clever clock widgety gadgety thing. I like it - not least because it shows date and time together by default. It includes a facility to add 'locations' to a little world daylight map, and when I first installed I added my home town. I wa surprised to find I could only add one, despite the dialogue being a list box, with "add" button which implied I could add more than one. Now, in a new login, I want to add my current location and nothing happens. I call up the dialogue, press add, and then find and am presented with a list from which I can select Johannesburg, and then Johannesburg airport. The dialogue cleverly fills in Lat, Long, and time zone. I accept it - and the list of locations remains empty and nothing appears on the map. Is there some config in a hidden file that specifies the number of permissible locations? Has some automatic update broken the location feature? I have tried on-line as well as off-line. Thanks in advance Bob Harvey -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Tuesday 21 October 2008 15:00, Ken Schneider wrote:

...

This is what happens when no thought is given to the business crowd. I'm sure a lot of business managers will be happy with all of the "toys" their employees will have to learn/work with. There should be an easy way to turn off the plasmoid _stuff_ off (perhaps there is and I just don't know of it yet). Perhaps another lesson in KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid) is needed.

I'm not sure this is a fair criticism. I know little about this, having never had a need for it, but doesn't YaST include modules for creating customized installation subsets? Wouldn't this allow a business IT department to create installers that offered only those packages meeting the officially sanctioned seriousness threshold?

Don't get me wrong eye candy appeals to a lot of people, it just doesn't appeal to everyone.

I have no need for it myself, but I don't begrudge anyone the opportunity to experience their computers in the way they prefer. And I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss these things as wastes, since individual productivity has many factors, including how much a person enjoys using the everyday tools of their trade, be they physical implements or software entities.

Just my 2 cents.

-- Ken Schneider

Randall Schulz -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Tue, Oct 21, 2008 at 5:17 PM, Basil Chupin wrote:

Dotan Cohen wrote:

...

2008/10/21 Thierry de Coulon :

...

The "bottom bar" (panel?) is almost unusable at this point, too big and not very customizable. It's a central part fo my desktop, so it's a show stopper to me.

Can you be more specific, let's file a bug.

On the 20/10 I wrote this in this forum:

QUOTE

For those who may not know it yet, I discovered this morning that the Taskbar in KDE4.1x can be made to Autohide, just like previously in KDE3. Luvly! (I don't know when this came into affect.)

Just right-click on the Taskbar, select Panel Settings and then select More Settings.

One thing, the Always Visible option always shows up with a red tick even if you select Autohide so ignore this little idiosyncrasy, select Autohide and save the new setting.

Ciao.

UNQUOTE

Didn't anyone read the above?

Probably not. Is there also the ability to shrink it (vertically) so that it does not take so much room? To have different wall paper on each desk top, to have multiple desktops, to have transparent task bars? To size the icons on the task bar? -- ----------JSA--------- Someone stole my tag line, so now I have this rental. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

BASIL - I totally agree with you in all the vast loss of functionality in KDE4. The major reason is that KDE in .DE and Suse.DE to a less extent do not use the interface you and I do. Have you ever see a Procedure, Apart from Mine, written to show you how to use the GUI to accomplish tasks. Even the suggestion at the beginning of the Support Database states that all users should use command line entry wee possible and reproduce it in the procedure. So its not hard to realize that the Suse is developed by people why do not even use their own interface - If they did there would not be the abundant amount of loss in functionality from 3.5 KDE to Native KDE and Suse KDE4.0 If it is any consolation there are bug reports about the missing functionality and with respect to SUSE.DE - They probably, rightfully, thought that KDE4 would have anything but more functionality not missing interface function as basic as those that are missing We should get to a stage when we have KDE4.1 in V 11.1 So Please don't run away from us just yet - Development IS frustrating particularly when the developers spend more time at the command prompt that the GUI. With Reference to the Panel's in KDE4 - What an horrific waste of functionality in KDE3 - Its shameful - But if you find you have deleted stuff and can't get the space back - Go to users in YAST and create yourself a new user and start over again as the new user will have the default Panels Remember perhaps its the devil you know - I am still trying to get Thunderbird to correctly handle S/MIME receipts for over 3 years and nominal S/MIME email certificate processing still does not work - But hey its just the International Standard. You can vote for the ones you want to:- https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=435456 https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=425434 https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=436278 https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=436811 Scott Basil Chupin wrote:

John Andersen wrote:

...

On Tue, Oct 21, 2008 at 5:17 PM, Basil Chupin wrote:

...

Dotan Cohen wrote:

...

2008/10/21 Thierry de Coulon :

...

The "bottom bar" (panel?) is almost unusable at this point, too big and not very customizable. It's a central part fo my desktop, so it's a show stopper to me.

Can you be more specific, let's file a bug.

On the 20/10 I wrote this in this forum:

QUOTE

For those who may not know it yet, I discovered this morning that the Taskbar in KDE4.1x can be made to Autohide, just like previously in KDE3. Luvly! (I don't know when this came into affect.)

Just right-click on the Taskbar, select Panel Settings and then select More Settings.

One thing, the Always Visible option always shows up with a red tick even if you select Autohide so ignore this little idiosyncrasy, select Autohide and save the new setting.

Ciao.

UNQUOTE

Didn't anyone read the above?

Probably not.

Is there also the ability to shrink it (vertically) so that it does not take so much room?

Yes, but you could do this anyway for a long time: all you had to do is to bring up the additional 'bar (thru Settings), left-clicking and holding the top of the new 'bar and then pushing it down; by doing so you also compressed the Taskbar.

...

To have different wall paper on each desk top, to have multiple desktops,

Multiple desktops yes (I have 6) but one cannot as yet have each with its own wallpaper - this bit is still to come. (Multiple desktops: right-click on a desktop icon in the taskbar and select the number you want in Configure Desktop.)

...

to have transparent task bars?

Don't know - haven't tried. (Getting the Taskbar to Autohide was a thrill- all else was forgotten! :-D .)

...

To size the icons on the task bar?

Yes, and you could do this before but I don't remember how I did it.

Ciao.

Basil Chupin wrote:

Dotan Cohen wrote:

...

2008/10/21 Thierry de Coulon :

...

The "bottom bar" (panel?) is almost unusable at this point, too big and not very customizable. It's a central part fo my desktop, so it's a show stopper to me.

Can you be more specific, let's file a bug.

On the 20/10 I wrote this in this forum:

QUOTE

For those who may not know it yet, I discovered this morning that the Taskbar in KDE4.1x can be made to Autohide, just like previously in KDE3. Luvly! (I don't know when this came into affect.)

Just right-click on the Taskbar, select Panel Settings and then select More Settings.

One thing, the Always Visible option always shows up with a red tick even if you select Autohide so ignore this little idiosyncrasy, select Autohide and save the new setting.

Thanks, Basil! At least this gripe of mine has been fixed! Now, if only the rest of the functionality of 3.5 ends up in 4.* I'll indeed be a happy camper! Thanks, Fred -- "Politicians and diapers need to be changed regularly -- and for the same reason." -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

* Fred Miller [10-22-08 23:09]:

Is it possible to hid the task bar yet? This is a "big" fault for a number of users.

Aren't you reading this thread, Fred? Fred, are you there? -- Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA HOG # US1244711 http://wahoo.no-ip.org Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://counter.li.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org