Currently I am using 4.7.2 which is missing this grey out. The described behaviour was in very old OpenSuSE 10.3 and it was very helpful. But if 4.8.3 also does not have this possibility then the update to 4.8 looks even less attractive. ----- Ursprüngliche Message ----- Von: Patrick Shanahan An: opensuse@opensuse.org CC: Gesendet: 0:43 Freitag, 1.Juni 2012 Betreff: Re: [opensuse] OpenSuSE 12.1 : KDE: how to make minimized windows kind of "greyed out"? * Peter Maffter [05-31-12 18:27]:

In former KDE version I could see, which Windows are minimized in the task bar: [URL=http://www.imagebanana.com/view/p6vebyxv/unusedwindowsKDE.png][IMG]http://img6.imagebanana.com/img/p6vebyxv/thumb/unusedwindowsKDE.png[/IMG][/URL]  : the 2 firefox in the upper row are maximized the 2 firefox windows in the lower row are minimized.

I don't recall ever seeing this but I group icons on the taskbar.

Is this possible in KDE in SuSE 12.1?

It is possible to *only* show minimized windows on the taskbar but I see no option to show different icons displaying visible or minimized. ps:  I am speeking for KDE 4.8.3-5, you failed to mention which version you have and/or which version you know performed as you mention, ie: before widgets???

-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

-- (paka)Patrick Shanahan      Plainfield, Indiana, USA      HOG # US1244711 http://wahoo.no-ip.org        Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 http://en.opensuse.org                          openSUSE Community Member Registered Linux User #207535                    @ http://linuxcounter.net -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Since my email possibilities are currently trashed (see my other kmail thread) I have to use one of those webmail things. :-( Therefore "top" posting (there is no way to switch it afaics). The format of my emails is also one reason why I want kmail back! Ad 4.8: if 4.7.2 has problems with kmail and the described minimize feature and if 4.8 has the same problems, then update is "less attractive". Anyway: I tried KDE 4.8.3 and it does behave the same as KDE 4.7.2: no "grey out"-feature and kmail still is buggy. Your suggestion of filing a bug report seems to be the only way, although I do not see it getting fixed in the next weeks then. I thought there is a more easy solution. :-( Maybe the KDE mailing lists know a solution. ----- Ursprüngliche Message ----- Von: Patrick Shanahan An: opensuse@opensuse.org CC: Gesendet: 20:52 Samstag, 2.Juni 2012 Betreff: Re: [opensuse] OpenSuSE 12.1 : KDE: how to make minimized windows kind of "greyed out"? * Peter Maffter [06-02-12 09:35]:

Currently I am using 4.7.2 which is missing this grey out. The described behaviour was in very old OpenSuSE 10.3 and it was very helpful.

But if 4.8.3 also does not have this possibility then the update to 4.8 looks even less attractive.

----- Ursprüngliche Message ----- Von: Patrick Shanahan

It is possible to *only* show minimized windows on the taskbar but I see no option to show different icons displaying visible or minimized.

ps:  I am speeking for KDE 4.8.3-5, you failed to mention which version you have and/or which version you know performed as you mention, ie: before widgets???

Please trim your posts and refrain from "Top" posting. Why would 4.8 be less attractive because it doesn't do something that your *current* version also does not do?  Logic fails me. I don't recall what 10.3 did, don't think I ever installed it.  I do have 10.2 running as a server but do not recall it having that function.  10.2 does have kde 4.6.3.  If you are certain that 10.3 had that function, check which version of kde was resident and create a bug report citing a missing function on your current version.  I'm sure that it will be fixed if broken or missing and is a popular function. You might also check on kde.org but I cannot tell you where to look. ?? google maybe. -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan      Plainfield, Indiana, USA      HOG # US1244711 http://wahoo.no-ip.org        Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 http://en.opensuse.org                          openSUSE Community Member Registered Linux User #207535                    @ http://linuxcounter.net -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Funny answer. FYI I am using Linux and Windows for more than 20 years now. ;-) Yes, delete is always an option, but you may have noticed, that those webmail programs do not always have the normale quoting functionality that kmail has. Formatting long quotes is a p.i.t.a. Thus you get this, if you waste/spend your time on such formatting stuff: ----- Ursprüngliche Message ----- Von: Felix Miata They don't need to be switched. All they need is intelligence applied. Simply take mouse or keyboard, and move cursor from where it is to start with (at the top) to where it needs to be (at the bottom). ... -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 03/06/12 18:52, Felix Miata wrote:

On 2012/06/03 17:02 (GMT+0100) Peter Maffter composed:

[...]

...

Yes, delete is always an option, but you may have noticed, that those webmail programs do not always have the normale quoting functionality that kmail has.

Clearly, but equally clearly not an excuse for top posting.

<completely OT> I also had this once: a webmailer where you cannot quote with ">". In that case you have massive problems with anything else than "top posting".

...

Formatting long quotes is a p.i.t.a.

Not that bad:

<quote> From: Felix Miata

They don't need to be switched. All they need is intelligence applied... </quote>

If you cannot <quote>, then you cannot quote. ;-) [...]

It may be a nuisance

That guy is a real poor guy: he has to use some insufficient yahoo garbage, his KMail does not work and now we tell him about formatting his emails. 8-) Have mercy! -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Very much OT indeed. I find it rather strange that based only on some articles and some formatting issues (which is ridiculous) some people think they can judge other people. I came here to get some help. I did not come here to change to gmail extra for formatting issues or discuss formatting issues at all. So can we please stop that senseless offtopic rant? As some other poster said: thunderbird is just the last resort. ----- Ursprüngliche Message ----- Von: Patrick Shanahan An: opensuse@opensuse.org CC: Gesendet: 1:38 Montag, 4.Juni 2012 Betreff: Re: [opensuse] OpenSuSE 12.1 : KDE: how to make minimized windows kind of "greyed out"? * Markus Egg [06-03-12 17:12]: ...

That guy is a real poor guy: he has to use some insufficient yahoo garbage,

poor perhaps in knowledge he/no-one *has* to use "insufficient yahoo garbage". gmail, for one, is available to almost everyone.  He also should have thunderbird available, and ......

his KMail does not work and now we tell him about formatting his emails. 8-) Have mercy!

*his* problem *his* responsibility to do as expected.     "when in ...." -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan       Plainfield, Indiana, USA      HOG # US1244711 http://wahoo.no-ip.org        Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 http://en.opensuse.org                           openSUSE Community Member Registered Linux User #207535                    @ http://linuxcounter.net -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On Sun, Jun 3, 2012 at 6:11 PM, Peter Maffter wrote:

So after some trying and googling I found a solution that is similar to the original behaviour: System Settings-> Configure Dektop Effects-> Focus: Dim Inactive: Options: Strength:5, Apply effect to panels

It is not exactly the same, I am missing an option "Apply effect to panel only, but what the heck...it is similar to the old behaviour.

Ummmm.. or you could change the theme if the current one doesn't emphasize it enough for you (or even edit your current theme). I'm using a theme (Slim Glow) that does (almost) exactly what you are referring to. The "button" in the task bar for the focused window has an outline and regular text (white in my config), windows that are open on the desktop have regular text, and minimized windows have greyed text. And... I just checked... the default "Air openSUSE" does something similar... active appears "indented", open but not active has black text, and minimized has light grey text. As far as I can remember, this has been possible and the case with KDE4 for a long time. C. -- openSUSE 12.1 x86_64, KDE 4.8.3 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On Sun, Jun 3, 2012 at 6:41 PM, Peter Maffter wrote:

...

----- Ursprüngliche Message ----- Von: C ... As far as I can remember, this has been possible and the case with KDE4 for a long time.

Thanks for your answer. I just checked. It was KDE 3.5.7 "release 72.11" where I used this feature.

OK... and? You clearly stated back in a previous email in the thread that you were using KDE4... and when someone facetiously suggested you install KDE3... you said you didn't want that. The simple answer to your query of how to get out minimized applications/windows is.. use your KDE4 theme. Did you do that? Did you either: - adjust your current theme settings or - try one of the dozens and dozens of other themes out there to see if one of the other ones met your needs? Adjusting or changing your theme is not hard.... KMenu > Configure Desktop > Workspace Appearance > Desktop Theme. Use the Get New Theme button to browse and install/try new themes. If you want to design a new theme of your own design, you can get started with the info here: http://techbase.kde.org/Development/Tutorials/Plasma/Theme And... the indication that an application is minimized, or open on your desktop should be part of any theme by default.. they just show it in different ways... some greyed out... some a different color... some draw an outline around the active application, others bevel it or indent it... C. -- openSUSE 12.1 x86_64, KDE 4.8.2 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

I am currently using KDE 4.7.2 so why should I install KDE3 ? I want this possibility in KDE4. ----- Ursprüngliche Message ----- Von: Dirk Gently An: CC: oS-en Gesendet: 8:13 Freitag, 1.Juni 2012 Betreff: Re: [opensuse] OpenSuSE 12.1 : KDE: how to make minimized windows kind of "greyed out"? Peter Maffter wrote:

In former KDE version I could see, which Windows are minimized in the task bar: [URL=http://www.imagebanana.com/view/p6vebyxv/unusedwindowsKDE.png][IMG]http://img6.imagebanana.com/img/p6vebyxv/thumb/unusedwindowsKDE.png[/IMG][/URL]  : the 2 firefox in the upper row are maximized the 2 firefox windows in the lower row are minimized.

Is this possible in KDE in SuSE 12.1?

If you install KDE 3 from the this repo http://download.opensuse.org/repositories/KDE:/KDE3/openSUSE_12.1 then you'll have it. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

That does not sound to promising. :-( I do not remember: was there some option about selecting KDE3 or KDE4 when installiing 12.1? ----- Ursprüngliche Message ----- Von: Dirk Gently ... Don't count on it happening any time soon. ... In fact, there's a KDE4 developer in Flint, Michigan who says that he STILL USES KDE3 because KDE4 is such a mess. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

To accelerate things a bit: based on the snapshot that I posted, are there themes that are known to be similar? Explanation: I want to come to some solution fast and I do not have time to try all the themes (the "get a solution fast" is also one reason why I do not like all the rant about formatting!) ----- Ursprüngliche Message ----- Von: C ... And back to the original question... I'd stated several times in the other half of this thread... the effects requested (greyed or dimmed taskbar icons for minimized applications) are there in the themes. Pick the theme that emphasizes it how you prefer.  Each theme implements it a little differently.  You can mix and match themes as much as you want as well.... -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

C said the following on 06/04/2012 02:49 PM:

I use Slim Glow, and the distinction is enough for me. The default Air openSUSE provides a reasonably clear distinction in the taskbar between minimized and active windows. In fact you have considerably MORE choice in this matter with KDE4 than you ever did with KDE3.

+1 Wonderful stuff under systemsettings!

This is something that you have to try. It will take you all of 10 minutes (or even less)... a LOT less than participating in all the kerfuffle here on the mailing list. In the time it's taken you to write a reply you could have tried out 5 or even 10 of the highest rated themes. What I'm trying to say is.. don't be lazy and hope that someone can guess what looks right to you.

+1 application appearance -> colors -> shading (adjust to maximum) -> apply inactive window color effect workspace appearance -> window decorations -> lots-a-stuff -> desktop themes Oh and more, so much more than I had with KDE3 ! ! ! (lions and tigers and bears and flying monkeys and red shoes) -- I suspect that, over time, all bureaucratic processes decay into cargo cults unless regularly challenged by a hostile reality. -- Alan Rocker 2001-11-23 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Ted Byers said the following on 06/04/2012 03:30 PM:

As for my question, I have never used KDE before, [...] One of my favourite libraries is jQuery. [...] Now, on their themes web page, [...] Simply clicking on one of the themes on the left lets you see what all of the various controls look like on the right. Moreover, they have what they call a theme roller, that basically lets you roll you own theme if none of the existing ones appeals to you. So, Peter wanted a fast solution. My question is, is there not something available for Linux desktops, whether Gnome or KDE, that provides the same capability?

Yes. Its under systemsettings. And no its not exactly like that, but yes it does all that. Systemsetting is the "Control Centre" for KDE. http://userbase.kde.org/System_Settings http://docs.kde.org/development/en/kde-workspace/systemsettings/screen.html I'm still time-warped to a CLI for many things so I type 'systemsettings' to invoke it or 'kcmshell4 --list' to see a list of the available KDE System Settings modules,

This is a fast way to theme an application.

Many themes available and many more can be downloaded. And you can make minor or major adjustments (and even upload the result!)

if I decide I don't like the theme I am currently using, for whatever reason, I can go to jQuery' s website and get a new one in seconds (being able to see on their site what each looks like).

Yes, that's at http://kde-look.org/ Look at the menu on the LHS: you can dress up any and all KDE applications individually as well, add sounds and more. Oh, and non-KDE applications :-) Another example http://opendesktop.org/content/show.php?content=151425

And if I decide I don't like any of the ones they have at present, I can make a new one using their theme roller in a matter of minutes.

Yes. You can fine tune and pick and choose to your heart's content

It seems like an obvious thing to have. So, is there such a tool, and if so, where is it, both in Gnome and in KDE?

Yes, as I say, visit 'systemsettings' for KDE. I don't use Gnome so can't comment.

My only irritant with them (and it applies to both) is that they often put things in places other than were I'd expected to find them

I would have though 'systemsettings' was pretty obvious. And its been discussed on this list in the past and David Rankin often posts about the themes he's used and 'fine tuned'.

(I have yet to find the configuration files for subversion or sshd,

Are you talking global (in which case they would be under /etc) or per user, in which case they'd be under ~/.subversion/config and ~/.ssh Of course you can over-ride various aspects of both with environment variables All this is documented in the manual pages or could be found by googling. As in RTFM. -- "Now look," Forrester said patiently, "progress is an outmoded idea. We've got to be in step with the times. We've got to ask ourselves what progress ever did for us." -- Randall Garett, "Pagan Passions", 1959 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On Tue, 05 Jun 2012 00:50:56 -0400, Dirk Gently wrote:

When the KDE4 team stops lying, I'll think about getting on board.

But don't lie to my face, repeatedly, even when the lies are pointed out day after day, and then expect support from anybody.

Don't urinate in my face and then tell me it's raining.

This is not useful. Nor is calling anyone a "liar" or other names. Don't expect support from the community if you're going to throw a tantrum like a child who didn't get the candy they wanted in the grocery store. If you can't be civil, don't post here. As far as I'm concerned, anyone who cannot act like an adult is not (and should not be) welcome here. Knock it off. Jim -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On Tue, Jun 5, 2012 at 8:44 AM, Dirk Gently wrote:

This has nothing to do with that.  I was giving the OP an honest assessment of the KDE4 team honoring his request: slim and none.

Honest? Your example in your assessment was wrong as you actually CAN set up your KDE4 desktop to use desktop icons. You always could... you still can. Your explicit example was wrong, and your honest assessment was nothing more than misinformed FUD-mongering. As for the OPs request, it is easily done using the KDE4 themes. Nothing to wait on the KDE4 team for... just the OP who needs to tinker with his settings since the default openSUSE ones aren't quite what he expects or needs. KDE4 provides everything that the OP needs to acheive his request either right within the UI, or of not in prebuilt themes, he can use the KDE-Look website and other fully supported tools to create his own theme. It's documented.. and has been there all along in KDE4. Are there issues with KDE4? Yes.. certainly. Are there issues with the Linux kernel? Gnome3? LibreOffice? etc... I think you're pretty safe to say yes to every single one of those. C -- openSUSE 12.1 x86_64, KDE 4.8.3 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On Tuesday, 05 June 2012 02:19 Dirk Gently wrote:

C wrote:

...

On Tue, Jun 5, 2012 at 8:44 AM, Dirk Gently wrote:

...

This has nothing to do with that. I was giving the OP an honest assessment of the KDE4 team honoring his request: slim and none.

Honest? Your example in your assessment was wrong as you actually CAN set up your KDE4 desktop to use desktop icons. You always could... you still can. Your explicit example was wrong, and your honest assessment was nothing more than misinformed FUD-mongering.

As for the OPs request, it is easily done using the KDE4 themes. Nothing to wait on the KDE4 team for... just the OP who needs to tinker with his settings since the default openSUSE ones aren't quite what he expects or needs. KDE4 provides everything that the OP needs to acheive his request either right within the UI, or of not in prebuilt themes, he can use the KDE-Look website and other fully supported tools to create his own theme. It's documented.. and has been there all along in KDE4.

Are there issues with KDE4? Yes.. certainly. Are there issues with the Linux kernel? Gnome3? LibreOffice? etc... I think you're pretty safe to say yes to every single one of those.

None of those other software teams have: a) Told subscribers on this list to go screw ourselves b) Lied repeatedly for weeks about the stead of readiness of their project, let alone refusing repeating the lies and stonewalling even when readers of this list noted the lies being pted by the KDE4 team.

And yes, the LIED ... they even admitted it themselves on the KDE website over a year later.

As for anyone who thinks this thread is not productive....

It serves as a warning to all others who might want to emulate the stunts that the KDE4 team pulled... to wit: disgraceful, disrespectful behavior towards the user-base will NOT be forgotten.

Does the KDE4 team have a reputation for being surly and a bunch of liars due to the opensuse mailing list, or due to their own anti-social behavior?

C, If you don't like the reputation you guys on the KDE4 team now have, you have NOBODY to blame but yourselves.

In the future. I suggest you NOT act like a bunch of lying know-it-alls with a "you're lucky to have anything" attitude towards users. In other words, you know... treat users like human beings, not annoying pests.

You reap what you sow, and the KDE4 team spent months sowing nothing more than the seeds of hostility and dishonesty. You made your bed, now lay in it.

You're not allowed to disagree with the elitist crew here on this list. You should have known something as simple as the word 'fart' would have made half the list members go apoplectic, as Jim proved. None have yet admitted to their hypocrisy or double-standards, and knowing how elitists are, they never will, even when caught red-handed (which I too have done, just as you have). And it's the reason this list just keeps shrinking and shrinking. Good luck to you though, I'd love to see quite a few in here eat crow and have to come down to the level of real men and have their inflated heads popped once in a while. If you want to get away with telling off any of these elitists, you have to be snide and pompous...that way it's all okay, just look at Pat's responses and see, no one ever tells him to stop posting in such a way. -- Powered by Slackware 13.37 05:34:33 up 28 min, 2 users, load average: 1.09, 0.96, 0.77 Properly read, the Bible is the most potent force for atheism ever conceived. - Isaac Asimov Registered Linux user #214117 at http://linuxcounter.net -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Jim Henderson wrote:

On Tue, 05 Jun 2012 05:45:06 -0500, Insomniactoo wrote:

...

You're not allowed to disagree with the elitist crew here on this list.

Disagreement is healthy, even desirable.

Falling into a degenerative name-calling fit when you don't get your way is not the same as disagreeing.

Strange.. People on this list were BANNED for disagreeing with those who later admitted to lying on this list. Exactly how healthy was that?

Throwing tantrums is not the way to get things done.

Then the KDE4 team should not have started doing exactly that.

Jim

-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Jim Henderson wrote:

On Tue, 05 Jun 2012 13:11:53 -0400, Dirk Gently wrote:

...

Jim Henderson wrote:

...

On Tue, 05 Jun 2012 05:45:06 -0500, Insomniactoo wrote:

...

You're not allowed to disagree with the elitist crew here on this list.

Disagreement is healthy, even desirable.

Falling into a degenerative name-calling fit when you don't get your way is not the same as disagreeing.

Strange.. People on this list were BANNED for disagreeing with those who later admitted to lying on this list.

Exactly how healthy was that?

I don't know the facts of this particular incident. If the "disagreement" involved getting into personal attacks, then certainly the banning would be appropriate.

...

...

Throwing tantrums is not the way to get things done.

Then the KDE4 team should not have started doing exactly that.

Responding "in kind" is not necessary. Doing so does not solve the problem, nor does it fix the problem. It simply escalates it, and that doesn't help anyone.

I'm merely stating historical facts which are well document in the archives of this list. Your objection is that I wrote something which isn't all happy happy joy joy about the KDE4 team. What they have accomplished so far, is admirable. However, the team has an established history of displaying an attitude which totally sucks. The Gnome3 team didn't learn from the KDE4 team, and is repeating many of the same mistakes (minus the blatant lying). The purpose of my original reply to the OP was to give him a REALISTIC expectation as to whether the functionality he wants will ever be brought back into KDE4 after they spent so much work ripping out a lot of KDE3 mechanisms. If you object to that, then you need a far better reason than "how dare you be unpleaasant". The fact of the matter is, the unpleasantness originated with SUSE employees who are/were part of the KDE4 teams, when they chose to: a: chose to blatantly lie, repeatedly, for months, that KDE 4.0 was a ready-to-use and suitable for installation by new users who had never used Linux before, rather than being honest and presenting the state of development of that time as "buggy, and suitable only for trial use by bleeding-edge users and app developers." b: belittle any and all critiques of some pretty half-assed ideas and other brain farts (such as the elimination of desktop icons) which they begrudgingly dropped 12-18 months ater), along with personal abuse and attacks against anyone who asked such obvious questions such as: why is KDE4 replacing workflows which previously required only one step (a click or double-click) in KDE3 with a new workflow which requires 3 to 5 steps (combinations of clicks, right-clicks, seperated by mouse-movements). Instead of reconsidering the fact that some of their brilliant ideas were not really so, they instead chose to call the testers all kinds of names, such as "dinosaurs" and such to imply that those complaints came only from people either too stupid or too stuck in the much to see the brilliance of replacing a simple, efficient 1-step mechanism with a convoluted, hidden, non-obvious 5-step mechanism which took 10x or more as much time to accomplish (typically 10 seconds vs 1 second). Many of us were eagerly awaiting KDE4 before it was released. We were willing to put up with bugs, etc. as expected for a new version. We were more than willing to participate and uphold our end of the open-source bargain: give feedback to the developers so as to assist them in their task. That bargain doesn't include a barrage of insults from devs to arrogant and stubborn to admit that perhaps their utopian visions weren't ready for the real world. It was predicted at the time that KDE4 would not be suitable for use by novice users for until at least KDE 4.3 and a time lapse of 2 years. The KDE4 denied this, with "how do you know", completely obvlivious to the fact that people other than themselves have experience in software development, and can accurately assess the rate of progress towards unrealized goals. In actual fact, It was about 2.5 to 3 years before KDE4 became truly acceptable for use by novice users with the release of KDE 4.7 -- This is not my assessment, this is the assessment of many early adopters of KDE4, writing on this very list. Like most people, some of my greatest advances in life came from the willingness to admit that I had been wrong, and to EMBRACE the idea of correcting my earlier mistakes. All I can say is at least they KDE4 team is only a bunch of code developers, as opposed to political radicals. The cultural disasters of the Soviet Union, North Korea, Nazi Germany, and Islam, and wide swaths of Africa all attest to what happens when people with control of police powers are too unwilling to admit that not every idea they have is an example of complete and utter genius. Whether it regards KDE4 and the KDE4 team, or anything else, if you don't can't handle the truth, well, that's your own personal problem. But how dare you heap your abuse on someone who is merely telling the truth which is relevant with regard to someone else's problem, simply because YOU are uncomfortable with that truth. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

hi friends, after a 3 years abstinence, I subscribed this mail-list! and after 10 min. i am allready pissed!!! wtf is going on? why arn't idiots banned? and why are intelligent people reacting to fools??? do i have to switch again to debian hardcore users?!? best regards alex On Tue, 5 Jun 2012 21:12:19 +0000 (UTC) Jim Henderson wrote:

On Tue, 05 Jun 2012 17:00:48 -0400, Dirk Gently wrote:

...

I'm merely stating historical facts which are well document in the archives of this list.

Your objection is that I wrote something which isn't all happy happy joy joy about the KDE4 team.

No. My objection is that you decided to engaged in a protracted personal attack against one member of the KDE4 team.

By your own account, they "admitted" their error. You seem to want them to undo something that can't be undone.

...

What they have accomplished so far, is admirable. However, the team has an established history of displaying an attitude which totally sucks.

Returning an attitude that you say "totally sucks" with an attitude that totally sucks itself doesn't accomplish anything. Do you really think they're going to listen to you? Do you think regular users are going to take you seriously?

...

The purpose of my original reply to the OP was to give him a REALISTIC expectation as to whether the functionality he wants will ever be brought back into KDE4 after they spent so much work ripping out a lot of KDE3 mechanisms.

Your original reply was useful. Your follow up was not.

[...]

...

In actual fact, It was about 2.5 to 3 years before KDE4 became truly acceptable for use by novice users with the release of KDE 4.7 -- This is not my assessment, this is the assessment of many early adopters of KDE4, writing on this very list.

Yes. And now we're past all that. It's usable now for many people; you disagree. Fine, agreement isn't required.

...

Like most people, some of my greatest advances in life came from the willingness to admit that I had been wrong, and to EMBRACE the idea of correcting my earlier mistakes.

So certainly you can see that lashing out isn't helping your cause. You seem like an intelligent guy. You might get more traction by, rather than being rude and pissing people off, focusing on the issues.

...

Whether it regards KDE4 and the KDE4 team, or anything else, if you don't can't handle the truth, well, that's your own personal problem.

It doesn't matter whether I can "handle the truth". But I see this list as a part of the openSUSE community, and when the community degenerates into shouting rather than working to solve problems, then yes, I see that as a problem and it's something I would care to see addressed.

Or we can just continue shouting at each other and calling each other names and make no progress at all. I assume you're here because you like openSUSE and want to see it succeed, yes?

So if you want it to succeed, how exactly is engaging in personal attacks, name calling, and other juvenile behaviour helping the project succeed?

It doesn't.

...

But how dare you heap your abuse on someone who is merely telling the truth which is relevant with regard to someone else's problem, simply because YOU are uncomfortable with that truth.

It's not a question of my comfort with the "truth". It's a question of how that "truth" is presented so that it can be addressed as a legitimate problem (and I'm going to assume that it is, but reasonable people can perhaps disagree on that).

Your approach does not further the goal of addressing the problem. Your approach makes the problem worse because it turns people away from the discussion.

So again, I assume you want things to improve. I'm suggesting a way of improving things that actually causes people to discuss the /issues/ without getting emotional about them.

Jim

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On Wed, 06 Jun 2012 12:22:07 +1000, Noel Butler wrote:

...

and why are intelligent people reacting to fools???

Each to their own, some people have more free time than others, some like to play net-cop, some like to bait the fishies, some just like beating their chest. My speciality was bullying the bullies and self appointed net cops, but even I haven't had much time for that in past couple years, ya know, life 'n all that.

That actually doesn't help the community, either. That causes an escalation which hurts the community. As I said to "pillowpants", often people who are angry, frustrated, or whatever act out because they don't feel they're being heard and their concerns aren't being addressed. While it's not possible to address every possible concern, it is possible to learn from those who are angry about something. Jim -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On Wed, 06 Jun 2012 03:36:03 +0200, pillowpants wrote:

after a 3 years abstinence, I subscribed this mail-list!

Welcome back. :)

and after 10 min. i am allready pissed!!! wtf is going on?

Don't be pissed. In general, you'll find this a welcoming community.

why arn't idiots banned?

What I said about name calling? Applies here as well.

and why are intelligent people reacting to fools???

I have found over the years that people who act out typically (though not 100% of the time) have something they're passionate about and upset about. When I have the opportunity to take the time, I like to try to find out /why/ they're upset and see what can be done about it. Not an easy task in some cases. But I think a worthwhile one to make for a stronger project and a stronger distribution.

do i have to switch again to debian hardcore users?!?

You can do what you like - but as I said, this tends to be a very good and supportive community. Jim -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Jim Henderson wrote:

On Tue, 05 Jun 2012 17:00:48 -0400, Dirk Gently wrote:

...

I'm merely stating historical facts which are well document in the archives of this list.

Your objection is that I wrote something which isn't all happy happy joy joy about the KDE4 team.

No. My objection is that you decided to engaged in a protracted personal attack against one member of the KDE4 team.

I never did any such thing. Not only that, but you specifically got your nose all out of joint BEFORE I replied to C's smug "how dare you talk about the past behavior of us on the KDE4 team" reponse. This is all clearly available for review in the thread. Now you're one of the liars, too, Jim. However, that you would eventually join the chorus of lies doesn't surprise me. Your very first reply to me was over your objection to anybody writing the truth. M. Scott Peck wrote a book precisely about people like. It's called "People of the Lie". -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Jim Henderson said the following on 06/05/2012 11:35 AM:

Acting like a jerk isn't useful either.

+1

If you want people to pay attention to you, calling names isn't going to work. You get written off as a loudmouth and added to people's killfile.

+1 "ker-plonk!"

An honest assessment/opinion doesn't need to include the kind of language you used.

+1

...

Hypocrite much?

See, this doesn't help. Again with the namecalling. Achieves nothing, and certainly doesn't make anyone want to help you.

+1 I said "ker-plonk!" Perhaps others have too. Its probably the best way to improve the s/n ratio. -- What is written without effort is in general read without pleasure. -- Samuel Johnson -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On Tue, 5 Jun 2012 15:54:50 +0000 (UTC) Jim Henderson wrote:

On Tue, 05 Jun 2012 11:49:50 -0400, Anton Aylward wrote:

...

I said "ker-plonk!" Perhaps others have too. Its probably the best way to improve the s/n ratio.

Maybe - in the short run, though, we have messages that those who don't know who they should add to their killfile affecting the perception of the community here.

Jim

List is archived and content is available for a very long time. Without purging archive there will be no improvement in signal to noise ratio and public perception of this list. (Henne?) On the other hand, there is a wiki http://en.opensuse.org (specifically SDB http://en.opensuse.org/Portal:Support_database ) where useful information can be stored manually in forms that can be as rich as good web pages, or as simple as plain text with no formatting at all. (Keeping wiki articles good looking, in specific form, is not always lined up with having useful information there. Many will find time consuming learning about form, but will help moving wisdom to place that can be purged from nonsense.) -- Regards, Rajko -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On Thursday, 07 June 2012 16:21 Anders Johansson wrote:

On Sunday 03 June 2012 22:45:09 Dirk Gently wrote:

...

Peter Maffter wrote:

...

I am currently using KDE 4.7.2 so why should I install KDE3 ? I want this possibility in KDE4.

Don't count on it happening any time soon.

You never did know what you're talking about, when the topic is KDE, did you Aaron

Anders

And the elitist bullshit rears its nasty little pug-ugly head once again. You 'tards are friggin' predictable! -- Powered by Slackware 13.37 22:37:24 up 2 days, 17:31, 2 users, load average: 0.76, 0.84, 0.85 Properly read, the Bible is the most potent force for atheism ever conceived. - Isaac Asimov Registered Linux user #214117 at http://linuxcounter.net -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On Saturday, 09 June 2012 10:45 Philipp Thomas wrote:

On Thu, 7 Jun 2012 22:38:27 -0500, Insomniactoo

wrote:

...

And the elitist bullshit rears its nasty little pug-ugly head once again. You

'tards are friggin' predictable!

You seem far beyond sanity, so please find yourself another playground to act out your infantile behaviour.

Philipp

Thank you for proving my point. -- Powered by Slackware 13.37 13:30:28 up 4 days, 8:24, 2 users, load average: 0.66, 0.74, 0.77 Properly read, the Bible is the most potent force for atheism ever conceived. - Isaac Asimov Registered Linux user #214117 at http://linuxcounter.net -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On Sunday, 10 June 2012 09:49 Sven Burmeister wrote:

Am Samstag, 9. Juni 2012, 17:45:01 schrieb Philipp Thomas:

...

On Thu, 7 Jun 2012 22:38:27 -0500, Insomniactoo

wrote:

...

And the elitist bullshit rears its nasty little pug-ugly head once again. You>

'tards are friggin' predictable!

You seem far beyond sanity, so please find yourself another playground to act out your infantile behaviour.

Don't bother, he is one of those hopeless cases who lack any kind of ability to be self-critical and hence does not even notice anymore his narrow mindedness. Arguments are futile.

Sven

You must take extreme cautions when walking around to avoid any pointy objects that could possibly deflate that huge head of yours. Only an elitist snob like you would say anyone elses opinion is "narrow mindedness". You should try switching your ass for your head some day...you (and everyone around you) might actually enjoy it more. -- Powered by Slackware Linux 13.37 11:31:51 up 5 days, 6:26, 2 users, load average: 0.98, 0.86, 0.81 All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. -Edmund Burke Registered Linux user #214117 at http://linuxcounter.net -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On Sunday, 10 June 2012 13:03 Sven Burmeister wrote:

Am Sonntag, 10. Juni 2012, 11:34:03 schrieb Insomniactoo:

...

You must take extreme cautions when walking around to avoid any pointy

objects that could possibly deflate that huge head of yours. Only an elitist snob like you would say anyone elses opinion is "narrow mindedness". You should try switching your ass for your head some day...you (and everyone around you) might actually enjoy it more.

I knew was right, so you did not have to prove it once again. But thanks anyway. :D

Sven

You're unfortunately, so pathetic you have to put little laughy faces at your own feeble jokes that, also unfortunately, make no sense. You're a terribly lonely person, right? Watch that sharp corner in the hallway, pompous-boy. -- Powered by Slackware Linux 13.37 14:58:31 up 5 days, 9:52, 2 users, load average: 0.93, 0.90, 0.87 All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. -Edmund Burke Registered Linux user #214117 at http://linuxcounter.net -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

* Anders Johansson [06-07-12 17:22]:

On Thursday 31 May 2012 23:24:57 Peter Maffter wrote:

...

In former KDE version I could see, which Windows are minimized in the task bar: [URL=http://www.imagebanana.com/view/p6vebyxv/unusedwindowsKDE.png][IMG]htt p://img6.imagebanana.com/img/p6vebyxv/thumb/unusedwindowsKDE.png[/IMG][/URL] : the 2 firefox in the upper row are maximized the 2 firefox windows in the lower row are minimized.

Is this possible in KDE in SuSE 12.1?

In 12.1 with the original KDE no, if it's not there already, but in recent KDE versions it is. Right now I'm running 4.9 beta 1 and minimized windows are greyed out in the task bar and I *think* it was the case in 4.8.3 too, but I don't have it here so I can't check to make certain

I have that with kdelibs4-4.8.3-5.1.x86_64 -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA HOG # US1244711 http://wahoo.no-ip.org Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://linuxcounter.net -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On Mon, Jun 11, 2012 at 9:21 PM, Peter Maffter wrote:

In my case Yast2 says that  kdelibs4, Version 4.8.3-504.1 is installed. Does that mean I installed the wrong version of 4.8.3 for SuSE 12.1 , 64Bit? I rsynced it from here: ftp5.gwdg.de/pub/opensuse/repositories/KDE:/Release:/48/openSUSE_12.1 and installed kdelibs4-4.8.3-504.1.x86_64.rpm .

That's the version I'm running, and with the theme I'm using (hint.. change your theme if you're not seeing enough of a grey-out on minimized applications) I have the behavior that you are looking for. What you want is definitely possible and a part of the standard KDE4. It has been explained several times... change your theme... try the themes until you find the one that suits what feels right to you.

It looks like 4.8.4 is out now.

I'd hold off on that update for a little bit. There are issues with it... read the discussions about it on the mailing list.

If I go back to KDE3: how good does this one click install here: http://en.opensuse.org/KDE3 work?

It works fine. The community member who has taken on the responsibility of maintaining the obsolete KDE3.5 is doing a good job of keeping it alive for now. C. -- openSUSE 12.1 x86_64, KDE 4.8.3 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org