El 24/05/14 19:36, Cristian Rodríguez escribió:

noauto --> mount will not be added as a dependency for local-fs.target

nofail --> mount will be only wanted, not required, by local-fs.target

I just checked, current systemd versions do not automatically mount filesystems that use the combination "noauto,nofail".. no dependencies are created therefore requiring explicit manual intervention. what you see is probably a bug in the old version. -- Cristian "I don't know the key to success, but the key to failure is trying to please everybody." -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On Sat, May 24, Cristian Rodríguez wrote:

El 24/05/14 19:07, Michael Fischer escribió:

...

2014-05-24 host systemd[1]: Unmounting /data5... 2014-05-24 host umount[20557]: umount: /data5: target is busy. 2014-05-24 host umount[20557]: (In some cases useful info about processes that use 2014-05-24 host umount[20557]: the device is found by lsof(8) or fuser(1)) 2014-05-24 host systemd[1]: data5.mount mount process exited, code=exited status=32 2014-05-24 host systemd[1]: Failed unmounting /data5.

That's part of a shutdown sequence right?

No, it is not. This is a system just running normally (at least, the sole user, me, is running normally)

A generator, man systemd-fstab-generator How is it launched? And is there a better way

...

to tell systemd to stop this behavior on those partitions?

Reading the code of the generator, if you remove "nofail" it will do what you want.

noauto --> mount will not be added as a dependency for local-fs.target

nofail --> mount will be only wanted, not required, by local-fs.target

ok, it is local-fs.target. I see both /var/run/systemd/generator/local-fs.target.wants/data5.mount and /run/systemd/generator/local-fs.target.wants/data5.mount (also for data6...) Does it help to remove those files from the local-f.target.wants directory? Michael -- Michael Fischer michael@visv.net -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

El 25/05/14 10:49, Michael Fischer escribió:

Does it help to remove those files from the local-f.target.wants directory?

Nope, they will appear again next boot, those are autogenerated in volatile storage, -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

El 25/05/14 11:23, Istvan Gabor escribió:

How can a mount be a dependency? This is stupid.

No, it is not stupid, it is just you do not understand its purpose.. mount points are dependencies and have always been . for example: apache Requires=srv.mount to work nscd requires var-run.mount and, on and on... you name it. 1. Should files be located on the given file system systemd should give error message, not override the administrator's setting. Systemd does understand what files are where, it only keeps track on what is mounted, what is not and what needs to be at a particular point.

2. systemd should stick to conventional behavior.

because you say so, I see. 3 You cannot expect a user to read systemd code generator (I even don't know what it is). Nope, there are manual pages that describe what they do.

I think systemd developers should change they program so that it does not touch noauto marked file systems.

There is nothing to change, the OP is using an ancient version in which this behaviour is observed. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Le 25/05/2014 18:22, Istvan Gabor a écrit :

Let me explain. Previously (before systemd, or gnome file manager) if I told the system not to touch a file system (noauto setting), the file system was not mounted.

I think the problem is that "noauto" is ambiguous. Initially it meant not by the boot system. This didn't prevent any other application to mount it in init scripts depending of they own setup. systemd (AFAIK) do not mount anything by itself, but simply obey applications that "requires" a mount

It is still not enough. If I update my openSUSE system which results in replacing sysvinit to systemd, I don't care (as most of the users) what's behind the curtain, I care only if the system works well, and I expect it to work similarly (from a user's view) as before.

certainly not. I *never* expect a new system to work as the old one, if not why not keep the old one? That is I expect that the

setting (noauto) has the same result as before, unless the change is mentioned in the release notes. Was it? (I don't know.)

Linux (and by the way openSUSE) is like the world around us, moving extremely fast. It's very difficult to follow. the only other way is to take a SLES or SLED license with 7 years support, but when the seven year will finish, you will have a tremendously hudge lot of things to learn. I very much liked the old xf86config configuration file with modelines that allowed me to fine tune my display, but I have to admit now with lcd screens there are lot less screens sizes than before. I still miss the Control Alt +/- way to change screen, but I take what I have. I'm glad we have people like Cristian that master some new setups and are here to help us, much appreciated. jdd -- http://www.dodin.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Le 25/05/2014 19:46, Felix Miata a écrit :

On 2014-05-25 18:38 (GMT+0200) jdd composed:

...

I *never* expect a new system to work as the old one, if not why not keep the old one?

"Support" period expires, thus: 1-no more security updates 2-newer versions of rapidly evolving applications (e.g. web browsers) are no longer provided

IOW, for many, "upgrading" is a necessary evil, not something one necessarily wants.

...

I very much liked the old xf86config configuration file with modelines that allowed me to fine tune my display,

xorg.con* remains an option (unless you need xserver scaling or panning, which are broken courtesy of upstream post-12.1 for systems using KMS video drivers). All my installations that do not require panning or scaling have xorg.con* files in active use.

...

but I have to admit now with lcd screens there are lot less screens sizes than before.

?????

Last century we had 12", 13", 14", 15", 17", 19", 21". Now we have virtually every integer size from 8" up well beyond 21", plus various fractional sizes like 13.3", 15.6", 21.5" and 31.5".

yes, but all of them are 1920x108 or 1366x768 or nearly jdd -- http://www.dodin.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Le 25/05/2014 22:26, Carlos E. R. a écrit :

On 2014-05-25 18:38, jdd wrote:

...

I think the problem is that "noauto" is ambiguous. Initially it meant not by the boot system.

No, it is not ambiguous at all. It means that it is not mounted automatically. That is, "mount -a" will ignore it.

yes, mount -a and nothing more

mount(8)

noauto Can only be mounted explicitly (i.e., the -a option will not cause the filesystem to be mounted).

It is in the documentation. Systemd should respect the documented behaviour, that's all.

it's not mounted by mount -a but by application requiring it (AFAIK) jdd -- http://www.dodin.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On Sunday 25 May 2014, Cristian Rodríguez wrote:

El 25/05/14 11:23, Istvan Gabor escribió:

...

How can a mount be a dependency? This is stupid.

No, it is not stupid, it is just you do not understand its purpose..

mount points are dependencies and have always been .

for example:

apache Requires=srv.mount to work

This is stupid. If /srv is not available then apache would just _warn_ about missing document root. Other parts of apache config may still work fine without /srv. And if I change apache config to serve another directory then I surely don't want to re-configure arbitrary mount service units too. There is only one genric dependency at boot time: Don't start apache before we _tried_ to mount everything from /etc/fstab one time. In running system we can umount and remount whatever and still want to start apache whenever we want refardless what is mounted. The last thing I want is that $ mount /srv would start apache but I wouldn't wonder if this would happen nowadays... ... similar like shutting down network interfaces just because pppd hangup, etc. Or no shutdown possible if we have nfs mounts but network is down ... cu, Rudi -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On Thursday 29 May 2014, Cristian Rodríguez wrote:

El 28/05/14 14:11, Ruediger Meier escribió:

...

On Sunday 25 May 2014, Cristian Rodríguez wrote:

...

El 25/05/14 11:23, Istvan Gabor escribió:

...

How can a mount be a dependency? This is stupid.

No, it is not stupid, it is just you do not understand its purpose..

mount points are dependencies and have always been .

for example:

apache Requires=srv.mount to work

This is stupid. If /srv is not available then apache would just _warn_ about missing document root. Other parts of apache config may still work fine without /srv.

For general purpose use, in systemd 's terms it is "Wanted" , i.e will be mounted if needed but the service won't be marked as failed if the mount point is not available

So it's not possible to umount(2) /srv forever? "systemctl start apache" would mount it again or what? Even if I have mounted something else there in the meanwhile? That's insane. Don't add such stupid deps per default.

...

There is only one genric dependency at boot time: Don't start apache before we _tried_ to mount everything from /etc/fstab one time.

The days where stuff is static in fstab are long gone, all your assumptions break with USB, hotplug and quite a long etc..

I don't think that people usually want to serve http from USB stick. Please don't break the use cases where we don't have a grandmothers who are carrying USB sticks from one nephew to the other granddaughter the whole day. cu, Rudi -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

В Wed, 28 May 2014 21:02:12 -0400 Cristian Rodríguez пишет:

El 28/05/14 20:25, Ruediger Meier escribió:

...

So it's not possible to umount(2) /srv forever? "systemctl start apache" would mount it again or what? Even if I have mounted something else there in the meanwhile? That's insane. Don't add such stupid deps per default.

That's not how things work, if you manually umount the filesystem it should stay that way.

Actually that's how things work. If you put "Requires=srv.mount" in apache.service, starting apache.service will attempt to mount /srv. Which works as designed and documented. Of course it does not mean design cannot be improved ... :) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On Thursday 29 May 2014, Werner Flamme wrote:

[29.05.2014 17:31] [Andrey Borzenkov]:

...

В Wed, 28 May 2014 21:02:12 -0400

Cristian Rodríguez пишет:

...

El 28/05/14 20:25, Ruediger Meier escribió:

...

So it's not possible to umount(2) /srv forever? "systemctl start apache" would mount it again or what? Even if I have mounted something else there in the meanwhile? That's insane. Don't add such stupid deps per default.

That's not how things work, if you manually umount the filesystem it should stay that way.

Actually that's how things work. If you put "Requires=srv.mount" in apache.service, starting apache.service will attempt to mount /srv.

Which works as designed and documented.

Of course it does not mean design cannot be improved ... :)

In this case I wonder how one will catch all cases... Maybe /srv is on the root filesystem, but /srv/www is mounted separately, /srv/ftp also, and /srv/git and other subdirs too. How can this be configured?

Or /srv is on the root fs, and only /srv/ftp and /srv/www are mounted separately, other subdirs like /srv/tftpboot are kept on the root fs.

BTW AFAIK apache is fine if it starts with empty /srv. You can fill or mount it later. It would just serve a nice error page when it can't find document roots. That's surely better than "port 80 not reachable" ... So the "apache Requires=srv.mount" example is just non-sense. And if you really want to speed up boot then you could mount /srv and start apache in arbitrary order. cu, Rudi -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Dr. Werner Fink [27.05.2014 09:11]:

...

the command that already exists to do it -- specifically, /bin/mount, which, for some stupid reason, they insisted on moving to /usr/bin/mount.

This is not true:

grep /bin/mount systemd-210/ -rs systemd-210/src/core/mount.c: /* We need to make sure that /bin/mount is always called in systemd-210/src/core/mount.c: "/bin/mount", systemd-210/src/core/mount.c: "/bin/mount", systemd-210/src/core/mount.c: * before the SIGCHLD of /bin/mount. */ systemd-210/src/core/mount.h: MOUNT_MOUNTING, /* /bin/mount is running, but the mount is not done yet. */ systemd-210/src/core/mount.h: MOUNT_MOUNTING_DONE, /* /bin/mount is running, and the mount is done. */ systemd-210/src/core/execute.h: * /bin/mount it is run in the same process group as us so systemd-210/src/remount-fs/remount-fs.c: arguments[0] = "/bin/mount"; systemd-210/src/remount-fs/remount-fs.c: execv("/bin/mount", (char **) arguments); systemd-210/src/remount-fs/remount-fs.c: log_error("Failed to execute /bin/mount: %m"); systemd-210/src/remount-fs/remount-fs.c: log_error("/bin/mount for %s exited with exit status %i.", s, si.si_status); systemd-210/src/remount-fs/remount-fs.c: log_error("/bin/mount for %s terminated by signal %s.", s, signal_to_string(si.si_status));

Nice try, Werner :-) on openSUSE 13.1: # ll /bin/mount lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 14 Apr 22 07:25 /bin/mount -> /usr/bin/mount # rpm -qf /bin/mount util-linux-2.23.2-10.1.x86_64 # ll /sbin/ | grep -c /usr/sbin/ 112 # ll /sbin/ | grep -c /usr/bin/ 10 Just my 2¢ Werner :-) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Dr. Werner Fink wrote:

On Tue, May 27, 2014 at 03:13:59PM +0200, Werner Flamme wrote:

...

Dr. Werner Fink [27.05.2014 09:11]:

...

...

the command that already exists to do it -- specifically, /bin/mount, which, for some stupid reason, they insisted on moving to /usr/bin/mount.

This is not true:

grep /bin/mount systemd-210/ -rs systemd-210/src/core/mount.c: /* We need to make sure that /bin/mount is always called in systemd-210/src/core/mount.c: "/bin/mount", systemd-210/src/core/mount.c: "/bin/mount", systemd-210/src/core/mount.c: * before the SIGCHLD of /bin/mount. */ systemd-210/src/core/mount.h: MOUNT_MOUNTING, /* /bin/mount is running, but the mount is not done yet. */ systemd-210/src/core/mount.h: MOUNT_MOUNTING_DONE, /* /bin/mount is running, and the mount is done. */ systemd-210/src/core/execute.h: * /bin/mount it is run in the same process group as us so systemd-210/src/remount-fs/remount-fs.c: arguments[0] = "/bin/mount"; systemd-210/src/remount-fs/remount-fs.c: execv("/bin/mount", (char **) arguments); systemd-210/src/remount-fs/remount-fs.c: log_error("Failed to execute /bin/mount: %m"); systemd-210/src/remount-fs/remount-fs.c: log_error("/bin/mount for %s exited with exit status %i.", s, si.si_status); systemd-210/src/remount-fs/remount-fs.c: log_error("/bin/mount for %s terminated by signal %s.", s, signal_to_string(si.si_status));

Nice try, Werner :-)

on openSUSE 13.1:

# ll /bin/mount lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 14 Apr 22 07:25 /bin/mount -> /usr/bin/mount # rpm -qf /bin/mount util-linux-2.23.2-10.1.x86_64

# ll /sbin/ | grep -c /usr/sbin/ 112 # ll /sbin/ | grep -c /usr/bin/ 10

This change had been done by the maintainer and/or submitter of e.g. util-linux and not by systemd upstream. The only thing, which is/was the problem that (auto)config(ure) does not know about legacy paths like /bin/mount,

And why not?

/sbin/fsck, /bin/sh, /bin/csh, /bin/ln, ... which caused a lot of work in past for the package maintainers.

Kay Sievert and friends are breaking it, -- therefore, it's incumbent upon them to fix it, not downstream package maintainers. If it's too much work for them to fix what they break, then I, and most recently Linux, suggest that Kay and his merry band of idiots stop breaking shit. This is PRECISELY why Linux removed Kay's commit privileges -- because HIS answer for everything that breaks in systemd is to break something else so that the two breakages cancell each other out. In the rest of the world, that's beyond mere negligence, and is often criminal.

In short, the junction of / and /usr does not imply that legacy commands must be moved from /bin to /usr/bin, nor from /sbin to /usr/sbin IMHO. Nevertheless the junction of / and /usr now allows to use shared libraries below /usr even for programs below /bin and /sbin. Be aware that e.g. NFS4 for a seperate /usr share does not work without moving nearly 60% of the shared libraries to /lib(64) making a NFS /usr share superfluously.

Werner

So we're supposed to believe that programs in /usr/bin can only access libraries in /usr/lib, and don't have any access to /lib? Come on, Werner.... I've been using Unix systems since 1983, and Linux systems since 1998. There was absolutely no GOOD reason to migrate all of those system critical commands from /bin (and /sbin) to the /usr tree. Were there reasons? Of course there were...but none of them good enough to outweigh the problems caused by forcing programs such as /bin/mount to be moved to /usr/bin/mount. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On May 29, 2014 11:39:34 AM EDT, Andrey Borzenkov wrote:

В Tue, 27 May 2014 16:23:05 +0200 "Dr. Werner Fink" пишет:

...

In short, the junction of / and /usr does not imply that legacy

commands must

...

be moved from /bin to /usr/bin, nor from /sbin to /usr/sbin IMHO.

Actually it does. The main idea is to have the whole binary part of OS under single root (filesystem, subvolume, dataset - you name it) to make it easy to backup, snapshot, clone and revert it. This leaves the rest as local system defined configuration/data.

But it already is, the single filesystem is / or commonly called root. It is the only way I set up my systems. Ken -- Sent from my Android phone with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Andrey Borzenkov wrote:

В Tue, 27 May 2014 16:23:05 +0200 "Dr. Werner Fink" пишет:

...

In short, the junction of / and /usr does not imply that legacy commands must be moved from /bin to /usr/bin, nor from /sbin to /usr/sbin IMHO.

Actually it does. The main idea is to have the whole binary part of OS under single root (filesystem, subvolume, dataset - you name it) to make it easy to backup, snapshot, clone and revert it. This leaves the rest as local system defined configuration/data.

These Germans just don't get the fundamental Unix (and Linux) philosphy. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Werner Flamme wrote:

Dirk Gently [29.05.2014 20:17]:

...

Andrey Borzenkov wrote:

...

В Tue, 27 May 2014 16:23:05 +0200 "Dr. Werner Fink" пишет:

...

In short, the junction of / and /usr does not imply that legacy commands must be moved from /bin to /usr/bin, nor from /sbin to /usr/sbin IMHO.

Actually it does. The main idea is to have the whole binary part of OS under single root (filesystem, subvolume, dataset - you name it) to make it easy to backup, snapshot, clone and revert it. This leaves the rest as local system defined configuration/data.

These Germans just don't get the fundamental Unix (and Linux) philosphy.

Why do you write such a crap? Do you want responses like "These Americans ..."?

You sure are looking for a way to get plonked.

Dirk has a very special talent for that. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (13.8°C) http://www.hostsuisse.com/ - dedicated server rental in Switzerland. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Anton Aylward wrote:

On 05/30/2014 02:43 AM, Werner Flamme wrote:

...

Why do you write such a crap? Do you want responses like "These Americans ..."?

You sure are looking for a way to get plonked.

The troll writes such crap to provoke you. Its what trolls do. Plonk him and he will register, yet again, with a new alias. Its what trolls do.

That he has had to resort to racist comments is a good thing on two counts. It shows his true colours and it shows how hard pressed he is to provoke you.

I'm Caucasian, he's Caucasian. What Racism, you slandering fool? I'm talking about national character. Anybody with the slightest clue of the history of German engineering is well aware of the tendency to over-engineer things, to favor the complex over the simple, and that these overly complex designs tend to be utter hell to fix. Compare a Japanese engine with a German engine. For similar repairs, the German engine will take 3x as many labor hours to fix. This has been a trend for DECADES. Now, stop slandering me or I will continue to demonstrate your foolishness for all to see, and read, and remember. Or you can retract, like a civilized human being. YOUR CHOICE! -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

lynn wrote:

On Fri, 2014-05-30 at 23:52 -0400, Dirk Gently wrote:

...

Now, stop slandering me or I will continue to demonstrate your foolishness for all to see, and read, and remember.

Sounds like a nice guy. Fancy drinkies later? LOL L x

When did I ever claim to be "nice" ? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

lynn wrote:

On Sat, 2014-05-31 at 05:53 -0400, Dirk Gently wrote:

...

lynn wrote:

...

On Fri, 2014-05-30 at 23:52 -0400, Dirk Gently wrote:

...

Now, stop slandering me or I will continue to demonstrate your foolishness for all to see, and read, and remember.

Sounds like a nice guy. Fancy drinkies later? LOL L x

When did I ever claim to be "nice" ?

Oh, go on. Be a devil. We love you really.

I'm just here to keep things honest. We all remember the massive dishonesty that ran rampant with the KDE 4.0 fiasco. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Felix Miata wrote:

On 2014-05-31 15:26 (GMT-0400) Dirk Gently composed:

...

We all remember the massive dishonesty that ran rampant with the KDE 4.0 fiasco.

Are you sure about "all"? Not everyone uses/used KDE4, and not every user has been around forever.

WRT openSUSE: The fence is down. The barn is empty. For all practical purposes the herd has been lost. If you don't want a system dependent on systemd, I'm pretty sure you'll need to use Evergreen while it remains based on 11.4, or find another distro at some point. Maybe you can use http://www.linuxfromscratch.org/ or http://www.slackware.com/ at least until the kernel has been unusably corrupted by systemd dependence.

I think you're right about slackware. Sadly. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 2014-05-31 18:02 (GMT-0700) Linda Walsh composed:

Does anyone else think some of the systemd folks might be on MS's payroll under the table?

Isn't that supposed to be a secret? M$ can't have Linux becoming as popular as Mac OS. That would put too many malware writers and spammers into a lower tax bracket, wouldn't it? :-p -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

The nicest thing of all is, no matter how much you hate systemd, you're getting it sooner or later too. :) PS: I feel religiously offended by Dirk Gently as he claims some persons are going to an imaginary evil afterlife full of pain. Mailing list etiquette? 2014-06-01 22:13 GMT+02:00 Dirk Gently :

Linda Walsh wrote:

...

Felix Miata wrote:

...

WRT openSUSE: The fence is down. The barn is empty. For all practical purposes the herd has been lost. If you don't want a system dependent on systemd...

--- Well, that's until it goes a bit too far.

Remember, it's just something to help help your system boot faster by doing parallel boot. And now? Seems like it fell a bit short of that initial goal, as well. If you already booted direct from HD and used parallel boot in the run scripts, there seems to be a slowdown. What I don't understand is why people keep converting more to systemd, when it didn't make good on its initial promises.

More importantly, shaving a couple of seconds off of boot time is really sooooper-dooooper important, why, exactly?

Systemd is doing the equivalent of fouling up the reliability of all the critical control systems of an automobile, all for the stated goal of gettin the engine to start in 3 seconds rather than 4.

The rsultant calamities would wind up in court as criminal malfeasance.

Nobody has yet explained WHY saving a couple of seconds at boot time is ooh soooo important (And I remember the days when unix systems with only 1 MB of memory took 15 minutes to boot up) that it justifies fucking up the entire concept of run-levels, and using well-debugged shell-scripts rather than some pulled-out-of-the-ass custom scripting language which is NOT anywhere close to fully debugged, and config files full of XML crud.

I think we both agree that the net effect of the trade-offs is not beneficial to users or system administrators, but it sure does stroke the ego of Lennert Poettering and Kay Sievert. There's going to be a special place in hell for those two.

-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

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Anton Aylward wrote:

On 06/01/2014 04:31 PM, Damian Ivanov wrote:

...

The nicest thing of all is, no matter how much you hate systemd, you're getting it sooner or later too. :) PS: I feel religiously offended by Dirk Gently as he claims some persons are going to an imaginary evil afterlife full of pain. Mailing list etiquette?

Good point. Henne got on my case as a result of a religious feeling arising from a random signature. The troll has been offensive quite deliberately in the body of his messages.

Here's a simple rule, Anton: If you don't like being called names, then don't call me names. If you can't take it, then don't start dishing it out. This double-standard of "I can make scirrilous accusations against anyone, but if they dare do the same to me, I'll scream emotional internet mind-rape" is about as low as a person can go. Now, that being said, if you want me to be civil, then I expect that people such as Werner be civil to me. If they can't show me that courtesy, and suffer ZERO consequences for it, then why should I be obliged to follow the same rules which Werner and others blatantly violate with no repercussions? Or is this list devolving into the mentality of a bunch of 12-year old girls with designated "in-group" people who can abuse anybody they want, and everyone else is just a designated punching bag, and who had better get used to being abused or else they will be silenced? World War 2 has been over for what, 70 years now, and the Cold war has been over for 23 years now, and yet Europe still hasn't learned the lesson of what happens when you attempt to stifle dissent -- that an organization of yes-men who merely praise the bad decisions of "the leader" (whoever that may be) is eventually going to get its ass handed to it by organizations which allow open discussion of issues and dissent, so that all objections are actually considered, rather than trying to rule by starchamber. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 2014-06-02 11:09, Istvan Gabor wrote:

Damian Ivanov <> írta:

...

The nicest thing of all is, no matter how much you hate systemd, you're getting it sooner or later too. :)

I don't think so. I am sure there will be linux distribution without systemd, and if not, one can use the BSDs. I tried FreeBSD and I liked it.

BSD is dying. They have problems with using recent applications, because the devs design for Linux first or only. They need to do extensive work to adapt applications and things, but they have less and less contributors to do the increasing work. http://lwn.net/Articles/524606/

...

PS: I feel religiously offended by Dirk Gently as he claims some persons are going to an imaginary evil afterlife full of pain. Mailing list etiquette?

I think style is important, but truth is more important.

If it is mixed with insults, my mind goes to the insults and I can not evaluate the arguments clearly. So no, I will not consider any argument coming from Dirk no matter how good they may be - and as a matter of fact I do agree with some of the things he says; but coming with insults, no, I can't, they are automatically refused, for sanity. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar)

Dirk Gently wrote:

Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

So no, I will not consider any argument coming from Dirk no matter how good they may be - and as a matter of fact I do agree with some of the things he says; but coming with insults, no, I can't, they are automatically refused, for sanity.

That's EXTREMELY small-minded way to go through life.

But quite a sensible way, especially with you about.

So, what other things do you avoid using if any of the developers or proponents of an idea or technology expresses himself in ways that you do not approve of?

Personally, if someone I am conversing with cannot express him or herself in a manner that is acceptable to me, I'm not interested. I'm quite certain I haven't missed out on anything that way.

The fact of the matter is, and you still refuse to recognize it, is that I was not the one who started the name calling, it was Werner... (and not only that, but in his reply to my posting, not only did he start with namecalling, he also wrote several lies, all while calling ME a liar).

Kettle, black, pot ... -- Per Jessen, Zürich (18.2°C) http://www.hostsuisse.com/ - dedicated server rental in Switzerland. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Haha, changing from some subject on mailing list behavior, you come to amputated body parts. So pathetic. Do you have some? 2014-06-04 5:53 GMT+02:00 Dirk Gently :

Per Jessen wrote:

...

Dirk Gently wrote:

...

Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

So no, I will not consider any argument coming from Dirk no matter how good they may be - and as a matter of fact I do agree with some of the things he says; but coming with insults, no, I can't, they are automatically refused, for sanity.

That's EXTREMELY small-minded way to go through life.

But quite a sensible way, especially with you about.

So if I advocate wearing footwear, you'll go barefoot in the winter?

Oh, Per, you're such a clever, clever, man.

After all, what's a little bit of frostbite half way up your leg and amputated feet if you can show the world that you disagree with Dirk Gently.

...

...

So, what other things do you avoid using if any of the developers or proponents of an idea or technology expresses himself in ways that you do not approve of?

Personally, if someone I am conversing with cannot express him or herself in a manner that is acceptable to me, I'm not interested. I'm quite certain I haven't missed out on anything that way.

My first postings WERE civil.

If you're upset about the discussion becoming less than civil, then how come you haven't mentioned Werner even once??? Hypocrite.

...

...

The fact of the matter is, and you still refuse to recognize it, is that I was not the one who started the name calling, it was Werner... (and not only that, but in his reply to my posting, not only did he start with namecalling, he also wrote several lies, all while calling ME a liar).

Kettle, black, pot ...

So, it's ok if Werner throws around insults, but not if I do it.

OK, Mr One-rule-for-you-another-rule-for-us... it's obvious that basic philosophical gains of the Englightenment still haven't made it to your remote village.

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On Sat, 31 May 2014 18:02:52 -0700 Linda Walsh wrote:

Felix Miata wrote:

...

WRT openSUSE: The fence is down. The barn is empty. For all practical purposes the herd has been lost. If you don't want a system dependent on systemd...

---

Well, that's until it goes a bit too far.

It's not gone too far? It's "only" to boot faster, that's all, right?

I noticed a fork of udev that doesn't require systemd. Seems more people are complaining as time goes on. Also saw some stepped on toes over in samba land.

oh no! Sanity! Kill it! Quick!

I'm sure the kernel folk are as happy as pie -- as systemd aims to become the arbitrator of system security.

One Ring To Rule Them All...And In The Darkness Bind Them.

Does anyone else think some of the systemd folks might be on MS's payroll under the table?

Have to seriously wonder. And how many other devs, coders and apps maintainers as well. The changes to Linux/Gnu based systems are steering it toward being more and more like windoze and farther and farther away from *nix. systemd seems to be doing unexpected things, such as starting services that have not been configured to start in standard sysVinit. Worse, it is not telling anyone or logging it. It is taking control of the system from the user and placing it in the hands of someone somewhere else who thinks they know better how the user should or wants to manage the system. Centralized control, just like windoze. This is so incredibly microsoft-ish and anti-Free Software I have difficulty believing that it is actually happening but I have to go with what I see. It is creeping into the kernel and Linus Torvalds seems quite OK with it. I don't understand this at all. Or like it. Or trust it. sytemd should just fork off, leave the kernel alone and become the microsoft-ish kernel it evidently aspires to. Please tell me that someone else has noticed the trend toward being more like windoze with all the information sharing between apps using udev and apps like gedit now depending on centralized data exchange and sharing via udev. These are becoming increasingly mandatory and for what reason? jd -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Lew Wolfgang wrote:

On 06/02/2014 04:29 PM, jdebert wrote:

...

Please tell me that someone else has noticed the trend toward being more like windoze with all the information sharing between apps using udev and apps like gedit now depending on centralized data exchange and sharing via udev. These are becoming increasingly mandatory and for what reason?

I've certainly noticed, and commented here in the past.

The arguments in favor of systemd remind me of something:

First, the hook: Boot times are increasing! Second, the fix: Systemd will solve all our problems! Third, close discussion: The technology is "settled", deal with it and stop whining. Forth, vilify dissenters: Systemd deniers are evil and must be cast out of the community!

First, the hook: The climate is warming! Second, the fix: Curbing CO2 will solve all our problems! Third, close discussion: The science is settled, deal with it and stop whining. Forth, vilify dissenters: Climate change deniers are evil and must be imprisoned!

In both cases, the "hook" is a false premise to justify otherwise objectionable remedies to problems that don't exist.

Indeed. And as always, when you ask the people at the top, they won't give you a straight answer, all they do is send back hand-waving replies spilling over with snarky atittudes. Slackware may be the place to go. This whole "your betters have made the decision for you, so fuck you" attitude at SuSe is getting old...very, very, old. And stupid. You'd think that the whole 1939-1945 destruction of their entire country would have taught them the folly of such thinking.(*) Apparently not. (*) (I remember seeing a film made in 1946... about some "army of occupation" soldiers, and their hijinks with the local females... with lots of on-locations shots filmed IN Berlin... and the one thing that becomes apparent very quick is that there was not a single street which even a jeep could travel down without zig-zaggin among piles of rubble, and that other than the Reichstag, there wasn't a single building left standing (Thanks to several Soviet field armies composed of field artillery to the exclusion of all other combat-arms formations.) Unfortunately, I can't remember the name of the movie.

Regards, Lew

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Linda Walsh wrote:

Lew Wolfgang wrote:

...

The arguments in favor of systemd remind me of something:

First, the hook: Boot times are increasing! Second, the fix: Systemd will solve all our problems! Third, close discussion: The technology is "settled", deal with it and stop whining. Forth, vilify dissenters: Systemd deniers are evil and must be cast out of the community!

In both cases, the "hook" is a false premise to justify otherwise objectionable remedies to problems that don't exist.

Boot times increasing?

Get rid of indirect booting. I boot a server in about half the time systemd takes -- boot directly from the hard drive w/o a ram disk. 15 seconds for the kernel to hit the boot scripts, and another 15 seconds for all services to come up and the login prompt displayed. 25% of that is just getting all the disk space mounted. Boot times are not increasing (as you note -- a false premise, and systemd doesn't lead to shorter boot times.

If systemd can't deliver on shorter boot times, why do people believe it will deliver on anything else?

Because, as you have probably noticed, we have entered the age of non-reason. We have become overrun by people who believe that wishes constitute reality, and anybody who presents evidence contrary to the really-really-really sincere wishing is a demon who shall be cast out of the rabbit warren... and these sorts of things are ALWAYS run by rabbits in a warren, whose primary method of fighting disputes is NOT the presentation of facts, but the use of shaming tactics, such as "How dare you say [insert double-plus ungood badthink]" and "How dare you say that the emperor has no clothes!!!" and "How dare you use insulting language -- it doesn't matter that our side was the first to engage in personal ad hominem attacks... that's not fair when YOU use such language!!!!" Which is why I wrote "fuck you" to Carlos... [And I never thought I would ever see the day when Carlos would be deserving of such on this list...but, it seems that he, too, has decided to join the poeple of the lie, or what Sinclair Lewis called 'The Autumn People." -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On Sat, 2014-05-31 at 15:26 -0400, Dirk Gently wrote:

lynn wrote:

...

Oh, go on. Be a devil. We love you really.

I'm just here to keep things honest. We all remember the massive dishonesty that ran rampant with the KDE 4.0 fiasco.

If you had a photograph, would you write on it? L x -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 2014-05-30 08:43, Werner Flamme wrote:

You sure are looking for a way to get plonked.

He was. He got back. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar)

El 30/05/14 10:46, Ken Schneider - openSUSE escribió:

On 05/30/2014 07:51 AM, Carlos E. R. pecked at the keyboard and wrote:

...

On 2014-05-30 08:43, Werner Flamme wrote:

...

You sure are looking for a way to get plonked.

He was. He got back.

Just one more ID for A.Kalkus(?)

Isn't that obvious ..? He is a professional troll with a known signature.. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 30/05/14 16:43, Werner Flamme wrote:

Dirk Gently [29.05.2014 20:17]:

...

Andrey Borzenkov wrote:

...

В Tue, 27 May 2014 16:23:05 +0200 "Dr. Werner Fink" пишет:

...

In short, the junction of / and /usr does not imply that legacy commands must be moved from /bin to /usr/bin, nor from /sbin to /usr/sbin IMHO. Actually it does. The main idea is to have the whole binary part of OS under single root (filesystem, subvolume, dataset - you name it) to make it easy to backup, snapshot, clone and revert it. This leaves the rest as local system defined configuration/data.

These Germans just don't get the fundamental Unix (and Linux) philosphy. Why do you write such a crap? Do you want responses like "These Americans ..."?

You sure are looking for a way to get plonked.

Aaron Kulkis, aka Dirk Gently, aka several other names (list available on request), got banned by Henne some years ago from all openSUSE lists. But he keeps coming back under different aliases, and with his usual 'charming' language ("Yet Another Thing F***ED UP BY SYSTEMD", and "...guy hasn't done a DAMNED F****ING THING....") - but Henne ignores his presence for some reason. What is rather disturbing is that Dirk/Aaron, judging from his comments above and elsewhere, has now acquired an additional prejudice but this time against Germans. BC -- Over the years you've helped raise awareness of a number of issues but the main one has been what a pain in the arse you are. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Anton Aylward wrote:

...

Aaron Kulkis, aka Dirk Gently, aka several other names (list available on request), got banned by Henne some years ago from all openSUSE lists.

But he keeps coming back under different aliases, and with his usual 'charming' language ("Yet Another Thing F***ED UP BY SYSTEMD", and "...guy hasn't done a DAMNED F****ING THING....") - but Henne ignores his presence for some reason.

What is rather disturbing is that Dirk/Aaron, judging from his comments above and elsewhere, has now acquired an additional prejudice but this time against Germans.

Using profane language and being a racist is OK.

What racism, you lying asshole? Yes, you are lying, and yes, you're being an asshole with this particularly slanderous lie.

Upsetting religious zealots isn't.

And what exactly is more immoral with upsetting religious zealots as opposed to other people? Many people on this list have expressed utter disgust with the way systemD has become a cancer in Linux... and yet you haven't registered one bit of sympathy for how upset any of us are about that. So, if you want to have any credibility, I suggest that you stop being a hypoocrite. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Carlos E. R. wrote:

On 2014-05-31 00:24, Dirk Gently wrote:

...

Anton Aylward wrote:

...

...

Yes, you are lying, and yes, you're being an asshole with this particularly slanderous lie.

...

...

Many people on this list have expressed utter disgust with the way systemD has become a cancer in Linux... and yet you haven't registered one bit of sympathy for how upset any of us are about that.

So, if you want to have any credibility, I suggest that you stop being a hypoocrite.

I may agree with some of the technical things you say. But, as soon as you start insulting, all that you may have said, do say, and will say, goes out by the sink hole. I will never believe or trust or lend ear to any thing you say.

So Anton can throw around unfounded insults, and that's OK, but I call him an asshole for making unfounded accusations, and that's completely out of bounds.. Uh huh, yeah, right.

Or... I may even change my mind, and instead of /hating/ systemd as I do, I will start loving it, because if you hate it so much, then it must be good.

This is known as "Cutting of your nose to spite your face." Also known as Logic Fail

And I will not say anything more to you. Bye.

So the openSuSE community is now like a clique of schoolgirls.... -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

* Werner Flamme [05-30-14 02:46]: [...]

Why do you write such a crap? Do you want responses like "These Americans ..."?

You sure are looking for a way to get plonked.

for some years now: # ------------------------------------------------------- # # bit-bucket: Aaron Kulkis <***@gmail.com> 76.243.106.37 # JB2 209.155.19.152 # # ------------------------------------------------------- :0: * ^From.*Insomniactoo@localnet.com|\ ^From.*dirk.gently00@gmail.com|\ ^From.*gordo.heavyfoot@gmail.com|\ ^From.*klukinator5000@gmail.com|\ ^From.*p\.nikolic1|\ ^From.*dahechler@att.net|\ ^From.*akulkis /dev/null # ------------------------------------------------------- The need arises occasionally to add aliases :^( -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA @ptilopteri http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member facebook/ptilopteri http://wahoo.no-ip.org Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://linuxcounter.net -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Werner Flamme wrote:

Dirk Gently [29.05.2014 20:17]:

...

Andrey Borzenkov wrote:

...

В Tue, 27 May 2014 16:23:05 +0200 "Dr. Werner Fink" пишет:

...

In short, the junction of / and /usr does not imply that legacy commands must be moved from /bin to /usr/bin, nor from /sbin to /usr/sbin IMHO.

Actually it does. The main idea is to have the whole binary part of OS under single root (filesystem, subvolume, dataset - you name it) to make it easy to backup, snapshot, clone and revert it. This leaves the rest as local system defined configuration/data.

These Germans just don't get the fundamental Unix (and Linux) philosphy.

Why do you write such a crap? Do you want responses like "These Americans ..."?

You sure are looking for a way to get plonked.

So rather than answer what I said, you resort to threats against free speech. And the reason for that is, because you know I'm right -- you can't defend yourself against what I said, because what i wrote is TRUE. All you've done is shown that your intellect is far exceeded by character flaws, one of which is, your desire to suppress the truth rather than to admit that you are in error, and play "naaa nahh nahh, I can't hear you" games like a spoiled child. So, go ahead, make yourself a jackass in public. It's not skin off my nose if you demnonstrate to the world that you can't even defend your own assertions. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Linda Walsh wrote:

Dr. Werner Fink wrote:

...

On Mon, May 26, 2014 at 10:36:52PM -0400, Dirk Gently wrote:

...

Michael Fischer wrote: Short answer?

Because Kay Sievert and the rest of the arrogant assholes writing systemd refuse to acknowledge that mounting is supposed to be done by the command that already exists to do it -- specifically, /bin/mount, which, for some stupid reason, they insisted on moving to /usr/bin/mount.

This is not true:

---

It is true in practice:>

...

ldd /bin/mount|grep usr libmount.so.1 => /usr/lib64/libmount.so.1 (0x00007f4003e3b000) libblkid.so.1 => /usr/lib64/libblkid.so.1 (0x00007f4003850000) libuuid.so.1 => /usr/lib64/libuuid.so.1 (0x00007f4003427000) libpcre.so.1 => /usr/lib64/libpcre.so.1 (0x00007f4002fbc000)

--- This was an early one that caught me out. I have a script to run for this now:

...

rootfs_dependency_checker.pl fixes_enabled = , >=5013 (Start prelink-info analysis to find broken deps (backgrounded)) Scan file-system mount order Dependencies (rootfs):/, Order 1:/Media, /Share, /backups, /boot, /home, /home.diff, /homes, /misc, /net, /smb, /tmp, /usr, /var, Order 2:/backups/Media, /usr/share, /var/cache/squid,

find all libs check for old versions in /usr check for out of date root libs check for faulty or unsafe symlinks check obj prelink dependencies Read prelink info... check for obsolete root libs num_objs=777, numlibs=4259 ...

----

Some "*hole" made sure that mount won't run if /usr/ isn't mounted (by default) on OSuse... I thought that was an especially despicable touch.

And yet according to Diktor Fink, *I* am the bad guy for bieng on of the many many voices pointing out how systemd is the cancer that is killing Linux.

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I can understand that there sometimes are things in an OS that make one angry, it happens to me, too. But PLEASE keep the tone and the wording on a at least minimally educated level. I am interested in learning about things I don't know, but nazi-comparisons, any kind of holes you might be engaged in, personal conflicts and attacks and the like... make it impossible for me to follow a discussion. It looses any value. It doesn't brighter my day when it starts with reading this kind of messages - and for sure it doesn't better the system. Thanks Daniel -- Daniel Bauer photographer Basel Barcelona professional photography: http://www.daniel-bauer.com google+: https://plus.google.com/109534388657020287386 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Daniel Bauer wrote:

I can understand that there sometimes are things in an OS that make one angry, it happens to me, too.

If this were a commercial product, it would amount to criminal malfeasance.

But PLEASE keep the tone and the wording on a at least minimally educated level.

I am interested in learning about things I don't know, but nazi-comparisons, any kind of holes you might be engaged in, personal conflicts and attacks and the like... make it impossible for me to follow a discussion. It looses any value.

It doesn't brighter my day when it starts with reading this kind of messages - and for sure it doesn't better the system.

Do you believe that lauding the STUPID decision to switch to systemd will encourage the team making the distribution to go back to something more logical, like the systemv init? SysV Init has problems...but all we're doing is exchanging one set of controllable problems for another set of very uncontrollable problems. Over 6 MILLION google hits of "systemd cancer killing linux" Think about that. Now, given that, why do we have knuckleheads at suse, redhat and ubuntu promoting this steaming pile of crap?

Thanks

Daniel

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On Sat, May 31, 2014 at 4:46 PM, Ken Schneider - openSUSE wrote:

...

Over 6 MILLION google hits of "systemd cancer killing linux"

Think about that.

I did and the correct result from Google is:

About 5,880,000 results (0.71 seconds) /No results found/ for "systemd cancer killing linux".

I believe the correct response is: Successful openSUSE mailing list troll is successful. He's just winding everyone up... and it's working. C. -- openSUSE 13.1 x86_64, KDE 4.13 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org