I get the feeling from my research so far that computer systems cracking is becoming more malicious and nasty then it was ten and more years ago. I was wondering if anyone else felt this way? I am doing some research in the cybernetic culture (media and communication) areas of "computer hacking", as it is called, not the technical side. Since the slashdot crack came up on this list, I thought I would ask what syadmins and others may suspect or feel. with thanks, Chris Jones.
Chris Jones wrote:
I get the feeling from my research so far that computer systems cracking is becoming more malicious and nasty then it was ten and more years ago. I was wondering if anyone else felt this way?
I am doing some research in the cybernetic culture (media and communication) areas of "computer hacking", as it is called, not the technical side. Since the slashdot crack came up on this list, I thought I would ask what syadmins and others may suspect or feel.
with thanks, Chris Jones.
Hi Chris, The web was originally built upon open trust. Yes its getting worse, much worse. Please take a look at http://www.netcraft.com/survey/ this should tell you a lot. Maybe they will answer a direct question. Matt
I get the feeling from my research so far that computer systems cracking is becoming more malicious and nasty then it was ten and more years ago. I was wondering if anyone else felt this way?
It used to be enough for people to get into a system and make some noise and exit without destroying data, etc... Now, hacking and cracking remote systems has utility...
I am doing some research in the cybernetic culture (media and communication) areas of "computer hacking", as it is called, not the technical side. Since the slashdot crack came up on this list, I thought I would ask what syadmins and others may suspect or feel. with thanks, Chris Jones.
I think there is a serious problem with the cultures of all the technology fields. The idea of Bastard Operator From Hell (BOFH) is a testament about this issue. I think the harshness of this culture is one of the primary reasons why women and minorities are not as attracted to the field of technology. I also think a lot of technologist have trouble being regarded as professional by De facto. There is this air of immaturity that follow us and effects how we interact with other professionals. For instance, a lot of times I have heard computing devices and related peripherals referred to as toys. I also see a lot of average people intimidated by computers because they are afraid someone more savvy reprimanding their mistake or regarding them as stupid. I hope someone else speak to this issue... I don't want to be the only person talking out about it... :) Jonathan =========== =========== Jonathan Paul Cowherd jpcowh01@slug.louisville.edu http://www.slug.louisville.edu/~jpcowh01 This is my world and I am... World Leader Pretend =========== ===========
- > I think there is a serious problem with the cultures of all the technology - > fields. The idea of Bastard Operator From Hell (BOFH) is a testament about - > this issue. I think the harshness of this culture is one of the primary - > reasons why women and minorities are not as attracted to the field of - > technology. <2cents> I don't know if this is necessarily contributing to the lack of women in technological fields dealing with computers. Frankly, I find the war-like atmosphere interesting. I think the reason more women aren't in this field are due to social expectations and the fact that women generally are not as interested in technical things and the sciences as men are. (That might play off of social expectations a bit too.) Of course, there are plenty of exceptions :-) You don't see a lot of female car mechanics or female electricians either, do you? Just a bit of my opinion. It does seem to me that most technically-minded women, however, have a hard time with the harshness of the culture . . . perhaps some don't like it, but they deal. I can't believe it's not UNIX!!! ------------------------------------------------------------ Leah Cunningham | PPC QA, Business Support & www.heinous.org | QA & Linux geek, et al.
On Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 07:15:37AM -0700, Leah Cunningham wrote:
<2cents> I don't know if this is necessarily contributing to the lack of women in technological fields dealing with computers. Frankly, I find the war-like atmosphere interesting. I think the reason more women aren't in this field are due to social expectations and the fact that women generally are not as interested in technical things and the sciences as men are. (That might play off of social expectations a bit too.) Of course, there are plenty of exceptions :-) You don't see a lot of female car mechanics or female electricians either, do you? Just a bit of my opinion. It does seem to me that most technically-minded women, however, have a hard time with the harshness of the culture . . . perhaps some don't like it, but they deal. Leah Cunningham | PPC QA, Business Support & www.heinous.org | QA & Linux geek, et al.
That is a really good point. So there is this struggle of conforming to society's expectations versus individual expectations. As a women, have you found that the men that you encounter have tried to assert dominance or some aspect like that with you? Or do you feel that men are always trying to assert dominance regardless who it is or what it is about? ... like we are compensating for something ... :) I think that some of us geek types don't feel masculine enough and that we act out these feelings of inadequacies through flaming or harshing eachother, etc... I also feel that that is the problem with these teenage boys going into these schools and shooting up everyone... Who knows? Jonathan =========== =========== Jonathan Paul Cowherd jpcowh01@slug.louisville.edu http://www.slug.louisville.edu/~jpcowh01 This is my world and I am... World Leader Pretend =========== ===========
- > > <2cents> - > > I don't know if this is necessarily contributing to the lack of - > > women in technological fields dealing with computers. Frankly, I - > > find the war-like atmosphere interesting. I think the reason more - > > women aren't in this field are due to social expectations and - > > the fact that women generally are not as interested in technical - > > things and the sciences as men are. (That might play off of social - > > expectations a bit too.) Of course, there are plenty of exceptions - > > :-) You don't see a lot of female car mechanics or female - > > electricians either, do you? Just a bit of my opinion. It does - > > seem to me that most technically-minded women, however, have a hard - > > time with the harshness of the culture . . . perhaps some don't like - > > it, but they deal. - > - > That is a really good point. So there is this struggle of conforming to - > society's expectations versus individual expectations. - > - > As a women, have you found that the men that you encounter have tried to - > assert dominance or some aspect like that with you? Or do you feel that - > men are always trying to assert dominance regardless who it is or what it - > is about? ... like we are compensating for something ... :) I think that - > some of us geek types don't feel masculine enough and that we act out these - > feelings of inadequacies through flaming or harshing eachother, etc... I - > also feel that that is the problem with these teenage boys going into these - > schools and shooting up everyone... Who knows? It's hard to say. I have had times doing technical support where men would refuse to speak with me or ask if they got the number for customer service by mistake. On the other side of things . . . Once people find out that a woman can do technical stuff, she is usually worshiped ;-) At least, by geeky men she is. Probably the most frustrating thing is when talk down to me, assuming that I won't know very much before listening to me. However, I found myself doing the same thing when I was working in the same tech support place. When I got a woman calling in for help, I automatically tried to explain things in simpler terms, etc. The fact of the matter is, it was very rare to encounter women that knew as much about computers as the typical male customers. Women would get angry at you if you spoke in technical terms they didn't understand, so you adapted your method of speaking to terms which the majority of the female customers would understand. In all my time working there, I only ran into a handful of women that seemed competant with the computers. Not to say that there weren't some really incompetant men, but they were not as common as incompetant women. It is a tough issue. I can't believe it's not UNIX!!! ------------------------------------------------------------ Leah Cunningham | PPC QA, Business Support & www.heinous.org | QA & Linux geek, et al.
Hiya all Just a huge thanks to all who have commented on my cracking question. I must admit to being quite nervous about raising the issue as I had some serious freak outs on another list with one very rude response complete with an attempt to throw me off the list for even raising the issue. (Stupid idiot thought I would give his MS computer a virus!) As for Australia being the honey pot of crackers, I must admit to laughing my head off when I first read about the Australian hackers (as they called themselves) wank worm attack on NASA, in the early 90s. I was also very pleased to see this led to a discussion of women in IT. IT and technology has a reputation for being difficult for women, gay men and other minorities. So, to all the women and minorities out there (including men who want to think differently about unproductive masculine values) - keep talking about this. In my experience, it was women who introduced me to the Internet, including the theoretical model, in the early 90s and who set up some of the first ISPs in Australia. A woman wrote one of the first useful computer programs and a woman did one of the first spectacular computer network hacks. Working with women in new innovative areas I find much more productive as there isn't that sort of thing that happens with some men who are threatened that I know something they don't. This stops what you are currently working on while this man, who finds his masculinity challenged, demands that you hand over all your knowledge, which is impossible, of course, as this means all time goes into satisfying one for the good of the project. I am not saying that all men are like this, by a long shot, BTW. Masculinity may be taught to men, while we are children, but we can unlearn this and learn new ways of working in a co-operative sharing way. There are things I know and things I don't know and it has always made more sense to me to work with someone who knows the things i don't know to produce something useful then to stop the project and demand that this person hand over all their knowledge. This is perhaps something that a lot of organizations have yet to more fully learn and put into practice, although they already are going in this direction. GNU and Linux interests me also because it is collaborative and shows a way of working which is inclusive and very productive. I mean, the promiscuous proliferation of software under the GNU and open source headings surely has not been matched before. I am very seriously impressed by what has been achieved so far, despite all the little fights and disagreements that happen along the way. Chris Jones [ Have you ever tired to crack an IA? --from Gibson, __Neuromancer__. Also, cracking is street slang in Aust for male sex work.]
Yes Mr. Cowherd, you bring up valid point. This is one of the reasons I have become so fond of the SuSE mailing list. On other list (e.g. the old Maximum Linux list, etc..) flaming and condensation of the other users was common place. The intimidation factor is also another valid point. My wife is a good case in point. She was very computer illiterate when I met her. She was very worried about "breaking" something and often time if something went wrong she would just let it go or walk away thinking she broke it. If I wasn't there to encourage her to use it and how to work through the snafu's she would have been "out in the cold" as it were. She wasn't comfortable seeking help because she "felt stupid". I showed her that this is the nature of computers and made my self available to her. I am just an end-user with a little more experience and no fear and taught her to be the same - without fear. On the issue of the increase of Cracking and malicious activity. This is a reflection of the culture in general. You'll always encounter anti social and malicious people. The internet is just another medium for the expression of this (and a potentially powerful and destructive medium). One might use graffetti or one might bring a server or corporation to it network knees. The potential harm goes deeper than financial. Imagine cracking into a medical network and destroying data or programs. Can you imagine the harm of altering a medical diagnostic program that makes the program give false information. The medical professionals and patients that rely on this information to make "informed" decisions will be make decisions base on false and inaccurate information - potentially alot of uneeded suffering or worse. These types of thing can touch all aspects of society and an individual's or groups life. Cheers Curtis On Friday 08 June 2001 02:24 am, Jonathan Paul Cowherd wrote:
I get the feeling from my research so far that computer systems cracking is becoming more malicious and nasty then it was ten and more years ago. I was wondering if anyone else felt this way?
It used to be enough for people to get into a system and make some noise and exit without destroying data, etc... Now, hacking and cracking remote systems has utility...
I am doing some research in the cybernetic culture (media and communication) areas of "computer hacking", as it is called, not the technical side. Since the slashdot crack came up on this list, I thought I would ask what syadmins and others may suspect or feel. with thanks, Chris Jones.
I think there is a serious problem with the cultures of all the technology fields. The idea of Bastard Operator From Hell (BOFH) is a testament about this issue. I think the harshness of this culture is one of the primary reasons why women and minorities are not as attracted to the field of technology.
I also think a lot of technologist have trouble being regarded as professional by De facto. There is this air of immaturity that follow us and effects how we interact with other professionals. For instance, a lot of times I have heard computing devices and related peripherals referred to as toys. I also see a lot of average people intimidated by computers because they are afraid someone more savvy reprimanding their mistake or regarding them as stupid.
I hope someone else speak to this issue... I don't want to be the only person talking out about it... :)
Jonathan
=========== ===========
Jonathan Paul Cowherd jpcowh01@slug.louisville.edu http://www.slug.louisville.edu/~jpcowh01
This is my world and I am... World Leader Pretend =========== ===========
Curtis Rey schrieb:
Yes Mr. Cowherd, you bring up valid point. This is one of the reasons I have become so fond of the SuSE mailing list. On other list (e.g. the old Maximum Linux list, etc..) flaming and condensation of the other users was common place. The intimidation factor is also another valid point. My wife is
Gosh! What a looong mail which you sent in now. I agree, many lists get more and more UNFRIENDLY. Especially the german Suse-Linux Lists. They regulate everything and complain about things I would not even waste a thought on. Here, however, speech is free, the folks do not ... like... pray the netiquette all day long and the tone, which makes the music, is much more friendly here. Here you do not start flaming or "PLONKING" (as the german lamers call it) only because of netiquette-things like full quoting. Here, you just say: Curtis, a little shorter please :;-)))) (quoting) My wish for now: KEEP UP THIS NICE LIST!! I LOVE READING YOU ALL HERE! Happy weekend... -- *º¤., ¸¸,.¤º*¨¨¨*¤ =Oliver@home= *º¤., ¸¸,.¤º*¨¨*¤
Oliver, I totally agree with you. I had the same experience with the FreeBSD list. I mean, all day long it is "RTFM" and "please wrap text at 74 characters". To be honest it is totally off-putting and I unsubscribed. The unstated motto of these groups seems to be "I sat on a blunt object and now you must share my pain". In fact I no longer run FreeBSD, though the questionable ethos of the community is only part of the reason. Actually the suse-security list has a bit the same character. But this list is 99% great. Keep it up. Enjoy the summer, Corvin On Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 11:53:04AM +0200, Oliver Ob wrote:
Curtis Rey schrieb:
Yes Mr. Cowherd, you bring up valid point. This is one of the reasons I have become so fond of the SuSE mailing list. On other list (e.g. the old Maximum Linux list, etc..) flaming and condensation of the other users was common place. The intimidation factor is also another valid point. My wife is
Gosh! What a looong mail which you sent in now. I agree, many lists get more and more UNFRIENDLY. Especially the german Suse-Linux Lists. They regulate everything and complain about things I would not even waste a thought on. Here, however, speech is free, the folks do not ... like... pray the netiquette all day long and the tone, which makes the music, is much more friendly here.
Here you do not start flaming or "PLONKING" (as the german lamers call it) only because of netiquette-things like full quoting.
Here, you just say: Curtis, a little shorter please :;-)))) (quoting)
My wish for now:
KEEP UP THIS NICE LIST!! I LOVE READING YOU ALL HERE!
Happy weekend...
--
Corvin Russell
On June 8, 2001 02:52 am, Chris Jones wrote:
I get the feeling from my research so far that computer systems cracking is becoming more malicious and nasty then it was ten and more years ago. I was wondering if anyone else felt this way?
I am doing some research in the cybernetic culture (media and communication) areas of "computer hacking", as it is called, not the technical side. Since the slashdot crack came up on this list, I thought I would ask what syadmins and others may suspect or feel.
I disagree. 20 years ago if somebody broke into a phone/bank company the only people who knew about it were the cracker and the company. Today if you shutdown Amazon for 5 minutes the whole world knows. Thats part of it. The other part is that 20 years ago the average person had enough trouble figuring out which way to put the floppy in the machine. That meant machines connected to a network had sysadmins that knew something. Not always alot but something. I'm not saying there isn't more going on but that in relation to the number of users and machines I don't think it's really any worse. The damage may be higher because we rely on things much more. Nick
participants (8)
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Chris Jones -
Corvin Russell -
Curtis Rey -
Jonathan Paul Cowherd -
Leah Cunningham -
Matthew -
Nick Zentena -
Oliver Ob