apt4rpm in SuSE Linux request
Hello.
I am just writing this to state that I am in full support of adding
APT4RPM support to SuSE Linux. This has several advantages:
1. removal of the YaST Online Update, which, even in SuSE 8.1, is very
buggy (read the SLE comments). apt4rpm can provide a _very_ easy to
use frontend (e.g., apt-get update aaa_base). GUIs for apt abound,
and, if need be, another one can be written very easily (just a wrapper
for apt-get, really).
2. updates for many packages. Take a look at
http://linux01.gwdg.de/apt4rpm/freshrpms.html . There is a _vast_
amount of software available there which most people don't know exists.
Adding apt4rpm to the default install would allow even unexperienced
users to, for example, update MPlayer (if you've followed SLE, you'd
notice there was a significant discussion on the difficulty of updating
MPlayer). apt4rpm makes this so much easier.
3. increased penetration of apt4rpm use. With apt4rpm being so
prevalent, more RPMs will be created, making using Linux in general all
the more easier.
4. marketing purposes. As the first mainstream RPM-based distribution
to use apt, SuSE LInux will gain even more market share, especially
outside of Germany, and thus, increase revenues.
--
Karol Pietrzak
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Le Lundi 18 Novembre 2002 17:58, Karol Pietrzak a écrit :
Hello. I am just writing this to state that I am in full support of adding APT4RPM support to SuSE Linux. This has several advantages:
1. removal of the YaST Online Update, which, even in SuSE 8.1, is very buggy (read the SLE comments). apt4rpm can provide a _very_ easy to use frontend (e.g., apt-get update aaa_base). GUIs for apt abound, and, if need be, another one can be written very easily (just a wrapper for apt-get, really).
2. updates for many packages. Take a look at http://linux01.gwdg.de/apt4rpm/freshrpms.html . There is a _vast_ amount of software available there which most people don't know exists. Adding apt4rpm to the default install would allow even unexperienced users to, for example, update MPlayer (if you've followed SLE, you'd notice there was a significant discussion on the difficulty of updating MPlayer). apt4rpm makes this so much easier.
3. increased penetration of apt4rpm use. With apt4rpm being so prevalent, more RPMs will be created, making using Linux in general all the more easier.
4. marketing purposes. As the first mainstream RPM-based distribution to use apt, SuSE LInux will gain even more market share, especially outside of Germany, and thus, increase revenues.
I'm not sure I completely agree, even if I'm a big fan of apt-get (being an old Debian user, I'm longing for a tool like that integrated into the distribution). But right now, apt-get in SuSE can create some very dangerous situations, removing too many packages and being unable to mend the damage. See this very list... This doesn't happen with Debian (unless you force things, in which case you just got what you deserved), so I think it would be possible to have apt as the default tool, but not as it is now. Second, SuSE is not the first distro to use Apt. The port from Debian to RPM was made by Conectiva Linux, which includes Apt as its default package manager (and it is not recent). Third, your point 2 is not really a good one. If you want a production machine, always stable and no fancy, having access to the latest-and-bleeding-edge software is more a source of problems than an asset. At home I play around with softwares a lot, but at work I'm sticking with Yast2 because I want certified things (and I've never, ever had any real problem with it). Apt can be a great tool but you can also destroy your system with it. I don't know how Conectiva uses it, but it is not so easy to integrate it in a distribution and expect industrial-quality. I read recently on this list that RPM had all the features you can find in the Debian format. If so, great, then Apt will be able to be a good tool in SuSE. But I'm still waiting to see these features in any RPM-based distribution... And without them, Apt is dangerous. - -- Thibaut Cousin E-mail : cousin@in2p3.fr Web : http://clrwww.in2p3.fr -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE92SAgv1vqsTa1E4oRArJTAKC3YdHFvrfe/KUXiVHc561fLrpMVQCdE07K BgwNVUIxvYIB5Rrhhnc2cvg= =EQV3 -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
On Monday 18 November 2002 12:15, Thibaut Cousin wrote:
Second, SuSE is not the first distro to use Apt. The port from Debian to RPM was made by Conectiva Linux, which includes Apt as its default package manager (and it is not recent).
Yes. But I did say "first mainstream" specifically because SuSE would not be the first to try to move APT into the light. Certainly, all the hard work would already be done at this point. As you specify, Conectiva ported apt to rpm and made it an integral part of their distro, but I do not consider them a "mainstream" distrubtion. Thanks for clearing that up though.
Third, your point 2 is not really a good one. If you want a production machine, always stable and no fancy, having access to the latest-and-bleeding-edge software is more a source of problems than an asset. At home I play around with softwares a lot, but at work I'm sticking with Yast2 because I want certified things (and I've never, ever had any real problem with it).
I'm not advocating the end of YaST2. I am advocating the end of the YaST2 Online Update as an application [quote: "1. removal of the YaST Online Update"]. YaST2 in general is awesome and is a major marketing tool for SuSE because of its integration of network, hardware, and software components into one nice, neat configuration tool. I, personally, am especially impressed with SuSE 8.1's YPM (Package Manager) and YaST2's hardware detection. But, I don't particularly like Online Update. The service is awesome, and you are not forced to use YOU either. You can use Fou4s, for example. But I, along with several others were on SLE, have had problems with YOU.
Apt can be a great tool but you can also destroy your system with it. I don't know how Conectiva uses it, but it is not so easy to integrate it in a distribution and expect industrial-quality.'
Of course SuSE won't include all the different APT repositories in the config; just theirs. Anyone who wants to use another one (along with SuSE's) can simply add the line. It would be foolish to include anything other than their own repository in the default install. A tech support nightmare. I'm also not saying that SuSE should use apt4rpm in the next release. As with anything, a slow gradual process is necessary; first internally, then actually included in the distro. But, as you said, all the bugs have to be worked out beforehand...
I read recently on this list that RPM had all the features you can find in the Debian format. If so, great, then Apt will be able to be a good tool in SuSE. But I'm still waiting to see these features in any RPM-based distribution... And without them, Apt is dangerous.
If enough customers request something, the company will be sure to cater
to them. After all, SuSE funded reiserfs, LVM, among others. That's
what my original post was: a request. With some time, apt for RPM will
be just as good as apt for DEB. I'm just voicing my opinion, which is
that this (i.e., apt for rpm) is a goal worth pursuing.
--
Karol Pietrzak
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Le Lundi 18 Novembre 2002 21:16, Karol Pietrzak a écrit :
If enough customers request something, the company will be sure to cater to them. After all, SuSE funded reiserfs, LVM, among others. That's what my original post was: a request. With some time, apt for RPM will be just as good as apt for DEB. I'm just voicing my opinion, which is that this (i.e., apt for rpm) is a goal worth pursuing.
OK, I understand your point. I agree with your last sentence. Many things remain to be done, but it is a goal worth pursuing. As I said, I was a Debian user in the past. I quit because I have to install Linux on many different computers and, with Debian, it is a hell (at least it was with Debian 2.1 and 2.2) because there was never a configuration tool, not even a detection one. I'm happy with SuSE now, but I'm still missing a real good package manager/updater like the dpkg/apt/deselect trio... - -- Thibaut Cousin E-mail : cousin@in2p3.fr Web : http://clrwww.in2p3.fr -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE92e+iv1vqsTa1E4oRAlznAJ4nPMpGjjPdVPzPMmGX9ZMLTqfA9wCgpB6R ohP/ny+CC52hlpYvS7H78qk= =rv95 -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
* Thibaut Cousin (cousin@in2p3.fr) [021118 23:56]: ->-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- ->Hash: SHA1 -> ->Le Lundi 18 Novembre 2002 21:16, Karol Pietrzak a écrit : ->> If enough customers request something, the company will be sure to cater ->> to them. After all, SuSE funded reiserfs, LVM, among others. That's ->> what my original post was: a request. With some time, apt for RPM will ->> be just as good as apt for DEB. I'm just voicing my opinion, which is ->> that this (i.e., apt for rpm) is a goal worth pursuing. -> -> OK, I understand your point. I agree with your last sentence. Many things ->remain to be done, but it is a goal worth pursuing. -> As I said, I was a Debian user in the past. I quit because I have to install ->Linux on many different computers and, with Debian, it is a hell (at least it ->was with Debian 2.1 and 2.2) because there was never a configuration tool, ->not even a detection one. I'm happy with SuSE now, but I'm still missing a ->real good package manager/updater like the dpkg/apt/deselect trio... I've watched a bit of this conversation. I'm confused. Someone want's SuSE to better support apt4rpm (I agree) and you want a better package management system along the lines of Debian's. I don't see where the disagreement comes in..seems you both want the same thing. :) -- Ben Rosenberg ---===---===---===--- mailto:ben@whack.org Tell me what you believe.. I tell you what you should see.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Le Mardi 19 Novembre 2002 08:58, Ben Rosenberg a écrit :
I've watched a bit of this conversation. I'm confused. Someone want's SuSE to better support apt4rpm (I agree) and you want a better package management system along the lines of Debian's. I don't see where the disagreement comes in..seems you both want the same thing. :)
Yes, we want the same thing as Karol pointed out. We just didn't understand each other's point at first. I was mostly calling for caution when wishing to use Apt. As Apt is now, it is dangerous (thus my reluctence). But if SuSE works on it, I agree it would be a marvelous addition to SuSE 9.0. - -- Thibaut Cousin E-mail : cousin@in2p3.fr Web : http://clrwww.in2p3.fr -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE92fGpv1vqsTa1E4oRAgOaAJ4nNrzWo63YKLD3gL3DhiLAJulGhgCdEIUO 5y8eyN6Z/3cnGuP1r/ZY1Yc= =K+mH -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
KP> I am just writing this to state that I am in full support of adding
KP> APT4RPM support to SuSE Linux. This has several advantages:
KP> 1. removal of the YaST Online Update, which, even in SuSE 8.1, is very
This is a freshman-type question
Firstly, I submitted my original post to both feedback@suse.com and (obviously) SLE to get feedback. On Monday 18 November 2002 12:21, DJ wrote:
This is a freshman-type question
Is the purpose of APT4RPM, FOU4S, and YOU (SuSE Distribution) the same?
Not strictly. YOU was designed to update SuSE's RPMs from SuSE's servers. fou4s is just YOU with extra features (and a different look). Some of the things fou4s can do but YOU can't are: proxy support, download resuming, etc. APT4rpm is a front-end to rpm. Just by sticking in a few lines in a config file, you can download/update using the RPMs from usr-local-bin.org just as easily as updating SuSE's RPMs.
I've briefly read some of the messages regarding these items, but not close enough. I'm getting more interested. Is the discussion basically which one can do it best and which one has the least amount of bugs? I'm for fewer bugs :-)
I found the comparison at http://linux01.gwdg.de/apt4rpm/afy.html to be
most interesting.
--
Karol Pietrzak
* Karol Pietrzak;
3. increased penetration of apt4rpm use. With apt4rpm being so prevalent, more RPMs will be created, making using Linux in general all the more easier.
and deleting the system also. you may want to check the threads which ended a lost user :-(
4. marketing purposes. As the first mainstream RPM-based distribution to use apt, SuSE LInux will gain even more market share, especially outside of Germany, and thus, increase revenues.
You may want to check Connectiva as they are already the first one :-) Believe I can come up with so many cons like you can come with the pros , on the otherhand I think the corrrect address would be feedback@suse.com if yuu want your voice to be heard. I personally think no Linux disto is yet ready for the Joe/Jane EndUser taht they would use it like Microsoft Windows. To have a penetration in this segment there has to be a stable base and I am sure that is what SuSE is trying to achieve at first. YOU provides basicly updates for maintanance and security reasons. When it comes to security I personally prefer to have the Vendor supplied patches installed to my computer. There has been lately many Troajaned packages ie Openssh, Tcpdump with apt one has the possibility to increase the install servers for various packages which makes it quite difficult to maintain security system wise. Oh yes I do play with apt also but not on my production systems as I want to have the benefit of using SuSE Just my 0.02 € -- Togan Muftuoglu Unofficial SuSE FAQ Maintainer http://dinamizm.ath.cx
I personally think no Linux disto is yet ready for the Joe/Jane EndUser taht they would use it like Microsoft Windows. To have a penetration in this segment there has to be a stable base and I am sure that is what SuSE is trying to achieve at first.
In some respects I would agree. Yet.... my sister, who is definitely not a power user has, this year, become a huge Linux fan. She came over to Europe to visit me last year, and discovered that I wasn't running Windows for my everyday desktop... I had this alien OS called SuSE Linux. She wanted nothing to do with it at first, and used her Win98 laptop connected into my home network so she had internet access. She got curious though... she tried out my Linux desktop from time to time. As time went on, she asked me to setup a dual boot system on her Laptop. When she moved back to Canada earlier this year, she took a copy of SuSE8.0 with her. When she bought her shiny new computer she installed SuSE8.0 all by herself (with a couple phone calls to me to sort out a few minor issues). She does not have Windows at all on that new computer... it's a Linux only machine. She uses OpenOffice.org for all her documents, spreadsheets etc for her job. She has CrossoverPlugin installed to take care of any issues with Netscape plugins... and so on. OK, I have had to walk her through a lot of things, and provide carefully detailed emails explaining how to rebuild MPlayer so she could watch movies... but that is no different than what I used to do for her with her Windows install. She is very happy with SuSE Linux. She wouldn't trade back to Windows if I paid her. Another happy SuSE customer. To me, this is a sign that if Linux is not ready for Joe/Jane EndUser, it is darned close (or at least SuSE Linux is anyway). C.
On Mon, 2002-11-18 at 10:58, Karol Pietrzak wrote:
4. marketing purposes. As the first mainstream RPM-based distribution to use apt, SuSE LInux will gain even more market share, especially outside of Germany, and thus, increase revenues.
2nd anyway. Conectiva (8.0, i think) was the first. But, hey, since conectiva is part of UL, maybe SuSE will do the same? -- JericAtSbcglobalDotNetwork 12:03pm up 7 days, 10:47, 6 users, load average: 0.17, 0.69, 0.87
participants (7)
-
Ben Rosenberg -
Clayton Cornell -
DJ -
Jeric -
Karol Pietrzak -
Thibaut Cousin -
Togan Muftuoglu