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[opensuse] SPAM: Pear

Ed Harrison

4 Nov 2006 4 Nov '06

03:50

Have we all gotten so lazy that we cannot delete the "SPAM" tag in a subject line before we forward or reply-to a message? Some Mail clients take this signal as gospel and dump the message in a bit bucket. Ed Harrison, Linux User # 199533 SuSE10.0, Kernel 2.6.16.21-0.21 PolarBar Mailer 1.26

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Randall R Schulz

4 Nov 4 Nov

04:26

New subject: [SLE] SPAM Subject line tags

On Friday 03 November 2006 19:50, Ed Harrison wrote:

Have we all gotten so lazy that we cannot delete the "SPAM" tag in a subject line before we forward or reply-to a message?

Et tu? If you don't like them, excise them from the subject lines upon receipt. KMail can do it with its built-in filter actions.

Some Mail clients take this signal as gospel and dump the message in a bit bucket.

How do the users of such mail clients carry on discussions about spam?

Ed Harrison

RRS

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Ed Harrison

04:55

New subject: [SLE] SPAM Subject line tags

** Reply to message from Randall R Schulz on Fri, 03 Nov 2006 20:26:21 -0800

How do the users of such mail clients carry on discussions about spam?

By allowing any message from suse-linux-e@suse.com, but why should I have to go that extra step. I know it's not spam; we all know it's not spam--so why not take the tag out of the subject line before sending? Ed Harrison, Linux User # 199533 SuSE10.0, Kernel 2.6.16.21-0.21 PolarBar Mailer 1.26

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Randall R Schulz

05:49

New subject: [SLE] SPAM Subject line tags

On Friday 03 November 2006 20:55, Ed Harrison wrote:

** Reply to message from Randall R Schulz on Fri, 03 Nov 2006 20:26:21 -0800

...
How do the users of such mail clients carry on discussions about spam?

By allowing any message from suse-linux-e@suse.com, but why should I have to go that extra step. I know it's not spam; we all know it's not spam--so why not take the tag out of the subject line before sending?

'Cause it's not my problem, obviously. Those who cannot tolerate the SPAM tags can deal with them as they see fit, I'd say. Besides, you can take control of the whole problem once and for all by programming a header editing action into a KMail filter. That way you get what you want without imposing on anyone else. It's independence, baby.

Ed Harrison

RRS

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Darryl Gregorash

06:40

New subject: [SLE] SPAM Subject line tags

On 2006-11-03 23:49, Randall R Schulz wrote:

On Friday 03 November 2006 20:55, Ed Harrison wrote:

...
** Reply to message from Randall R Schulz on Fri, 03 Nov 2006 20:26:21 -0800

...
How do the users of such mail clients carry on discussions about spam?

By allowing any message from suse-linux-e@suse.com, but why should I have to go that extra step. I know it's not spam; we all know it's not spam--so why not take the tag out of the subject line before sending?

'Cause it's not my problem, obviously. I think you must admit that, when a thread is broken and there is so much "spam re: spam re: spam ...." that the entire original subject line gets truncated, it does get a bit irritating :-)

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Randall R Schulz

14:38

New subject: [SLE] SPAM Subject line tags

On Friday 03 November 2006 22:40, Darryl Gregorash wrote:

...

...
'Cause it's not my problem, obviously.

I think you must admit that, when a thread is broken and there is so much "spam re: spam re: spam ...." that the entire original subject line gets truncated, it does get a bit irritating :-)

Your mailer is broken if it bases something called "threads" on subject headers. Beyond being entirely fragile w.r.t. changes in the subject headers, it doesn't even permit a proper hierarchy to be constructed. RRS

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Darryl Gregorash

23:44

New subject: [SLE] SPAM Subject line tags

On 2006-11-04 08:38, Randall R Schulz wrote:

On Friday 03 November 2006 22:40, Darryl Gregorash wrote:

...
...

...
'Cause it's not my problem, obviously.

I think you must admit that, when a thread is broken and there is so much "spam re: spam re: spam ...." that the entire original subject line gets truncated, it does get a bit irritating :-)

Your mailer is broken if it bases something called "threads" on subject headers. Beyond being entirely fragile w.r.t. changes in the subject headers, it doesn't even permit a proper hierarchy to be constructed.

Take another look at my useragent, Randall. Threads still get broken.. all it takes is for the reply chain to get busted.

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Randall R Schulz

5 Nov 5 Nov

00:25

New subject: [SLE] SPAM Subject line tags

On Saturday 04 November 2006 15:44, Darryl Gregorash wrote:

On 2006-11-04 08:38, Randall R Schulz wrote:

...
On Friday 03 November 2006 22:40, Darryl Gregorash wrote:

...
...

...
'Cause it's not my problem, obviously.

I think you must admit that, when a thread is broken and there is so much "spam re: spam re: spam ...." that the entire original subject line gets truncated, it does get a bit irritating :-)

Your mailer is broken if it bases something called "threads" on subject headers. Beyond being entirely fragile w.r.t. changes in the subject headers, it doesn't even permit a proper hierarchy to be constructed.

Take another look at my useragent, Randall.

Threads still get broken.. all it takes is for the reply chain to get busted.

In-Reference-To: headers rarely get "busted" (certainly not by mail clients). While thread hijacking is easy, the inverse--producing what appears based on the Subject: header to be part of an existing thread but which is not because it lacks a proper In-Reference-To: header--is too much work for people to do with any frequency. And besides, KMail is nice enough to have Subject-based threading as an additional option when a given folder has threading enabled. Lastly, this phenomenon is really neither here nor there as regards your wish to have people fix up Subject: headers to your liking. Besides, in my experience on lists such as this one which is by definition Linux-oriented and thus populated by a minimum of users of Outlook (Express) it occurs only rarely. Randall Schulz

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Felix Miata

00:38

New subject: [SLE] Subject line tags

On 2006/11/04 16:25 (GMT-0800) Randall R Schulz apparently typed:

In-Reference-To: headers rarely get "busted" (certainly not by mail clients).

When do Outhouse and Outbreak Excess ever NOT strip those headers? -- "Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven." Matthew 5:12 NIV Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 Felix Miata *** http://mrmazda.no-ip.com/

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Randall R Schulz

00:42

New subject: [SLE] Subject line tags

On Saturday 04 November 2006 16:37, Felix Miata wrote:

On 2006/11/04 16:25 (GMT-0800) Randall R Schulz apparently typed:

...
In-Reference-To: headers rarely get "busted" (certainly not by mail clients).

When do Outhouse and Outbreak Excess ever NOT strip those headers?

Yes. With that exception. RRS

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John Andersen

01:05

New subject: [SLE] SPAM Subject line tags

On Saturday 04 November 2006 15:25, Randall R Schulz wrote:

In-Reference-To: headers rarely get "busted" (certainly not by mail clients).

What are you talking about? All it takes is one Outlook Express user to destroy threading for everyone on a mailing list. -- _____________________________________ John Andersen

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Randall R Schulz

01:10

New subject: [SLE] SPAM Subject line tags

On Saturday 04 November 2006 17:05, John Andersen wrote:

On Saturday 04 November 2006 15:25, Randall R Schulz wrote:

...
In-Reference-To: headers rarely get "busted" (certainly not by mail clients).

What are you talking about? All it takes is one Outlook Express user to destroy threading for everyone on a mailing list.

Hardly true. And there are clearly very few users of those clients on this list, since there are very few fragmented threads. But then, I enable KMail's "Thread Messages also by Subject" for this list, so perhaps its worse than it seems for me. RRS

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Darryl Gregorash

01:44

New subject: [SLE] SPAM Subject line tags

On 2006-11-04 19:10, Randall R Schulz wrote:

On Saturday 04 November 2006 17:05, John Andersen wrote:

...
On Saturday 04 November 2006 15:25, Randall R Schulz wrote:

...
In-Reference-To: headers rarely get "busted" (certainly not by mail clients).

What are you talking about? All it takes is one Outlook Express user to destroy threading for everyone on a mailing list.

Hardly true. And there are clearly very few users of those clients on this list, since there are very few fragmented threads. But then, I enable KMail's "Thread Messages also by Subject" for this list, so perhaps its worse than it seems for me. Indeed.

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Darryl Gregorash

01:43

New subject: [SLE] SPAM Subject line tags

On 2006-11-04 18:25, Randall R Schulz wrote:

On Saturday 04 November 2006 15:44, Darryl Gregorash wrote:

...
Threads still get broken.. all it takes is for the reply chain to get busted.

too much work for people to do with any frequency. And besides, KMail is nice enough to have Subject-based threading as an additional option when a given folder has threading enabled.

I don't care what KMail does or does not do, the reference chains still get broken.. it isn't quite as rare as you suggest, either.

Lastly, this phenomenon is really neither here nor there as regards your wish to have people fix up Subject: headers to your liking. Besides, in

I think you have me mistaken for Ed, who began this thread.

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Carlos E. R.

4 Nov 4 Nov

12:20

New subject: [SLE] SPAM Subject line tags

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 The Friday 2006-11-03 at 23:55 -0500, Ed Harrison wrote:

** Reply to message from Randall R Schulz on Fri, 03 Nov 2006 20:26:21 -0800

...
How do the users of such mail clients carry on discussions about spam?

By allowing any message from suse-linux-e@suse.com, but why should I have to go that extra step. I know it's not spam; we all know it's not spam--so why not take the tag out of the subject line before sending?

Because it is not _us_ who are writting that "SPAM" tag. Even if I delete it (which I do when I remember), some one broken mail server's filter puts it back. And do you know who's is that broken server? I do... It is SuSE/Novell mail server. So, if I write a clean message, with no spam tag (I assure you there is no such tag above in this email), but when it reaches you it has an spam tag, unless you tell your mail client to ignore it you are not going to see my message. You have two avenues: * contact the mail list owner and request them to remove the spam tags or cleant ther filters. * adjust your mail client. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Made with pgp4pine 1.76 iD8DBQFFTIV6tTMYHG2NR9URAi88AJ90/lxn2hx0csRgOvig0kWAAdpBkACgkKSd B+hI7jMePH97KPov+7Lxkgs= =OqyL -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

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Darryl Gregorash

5 Nov 5 Nov

01:52

New subject: SPAM: Re: [SLE] SPAM Subject line tags

On 2006-11-04 06:20, Carlos E. R. wrote:

So, if I write a clean message, with no spam tag (I assure you there is no such tag above in this email), but when it reaches you it has an spam tag, unless you tell your mail client to ignore it you are not going to see my message. You have two avenues:

* contact the mail list owner and request them to remove the spam tags or cleant ther filters. * adjust your mail client.

I'm not certain that the problem is that clear-cut, Carlos. With great regularity, a "forged" rcvd_helo gets bumped up to a Bayes status of 5.1, with 5.0 needed to flag the message as spam. You can tell whenever that has happened -- my messages suddenly start getting flagged as spam. When that stops,you know the "forged" rcvd_helo has been bumped back to a 4.1 status. There seem to be far too many checks against the envelope, IMO, and with those, it is far too easy to see one's mail get marked as spam. I don't know how these changes happen (I tend to doubt the Bayes filter adjusts the values that much itself), but they are very bothersome. I don't do any header checking with any of my received email, and my Bayes filter catches all but a message or two out of a thousand or more.

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Carlos E. R.

11:55

New subject: SPAM: Re: [SLE] SPAM Subject line tags

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 The Saturday 2006-11-04 at 19:52 -0600, Darryl Gregorash wrote:

...
message. You have two avenues:

* contact the mail list owner and request them to remove the spam tags or cleant ther filters.

The list owner has already said in the opensuse list this will be done on Monday.

...
* adjust your mail client.

I'm not certain that the problem is that clear-cut, Carlos. With great regularity, a "forged" rcvd_helo gets bumped up to a Bayes status of 5.1, with 5.0 needed to flag the message as spam. You can tell whenever that has happened -- my messages suddenly start getting flagged as spam. When that stops,you know the "forged" rcvd_helo has been bumped back to a 4.1 status.

There seem to be far too many checks against the envelope, IMO, and with those, it is far too easy to see one's mail get marked as spam. I don't know how these changes happen (I tend to doubt the Bayes filter adjusts the values that much itself), but they are very bothersome. I don't do any header checking with any of my received email, and my Bayes filter catches all but a message or two out of a thousand or more.

Er... Just look at your own message (this one), what antispam checking headers the suse server added: X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at Relay1.suse.de X-Spam-Status: Yes, hits=5.1 tagged_above=-20.0 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_99, FORGED_RCVD_HELO X-Spam-Level: ***** X-Spam-Flag: YES The problem is not the "FORGED_RCVD_HELO" tag, but the "BAYES_99" one. Both are totally independent. The first is a kind of regexp match and some tests; the second is more complicated and I can't explain, but it is a sort of score on text coincidences with previous mails that the system has been told previously that are spam. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Made with pgp4pine 1.76 iD8DBQFFTdExtTMYHG2NR9URAgjuAJ4i03sQaFi/a3uM6dSrvJnSH0A2iACgl3wt vL0627kwdAx7vPPxP44hk2E= =mIvU -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

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Darryl Gregorash

12:53

New subject: [SLE] SPAM Subject line tags

On 2006-11-05 05:55, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...
There seem to be far too many checks against the envelope....

Er...

.... The problem is not the "FORGED_RCVD_HELO" tag, but the "BAYES_99" one.

Both are totally independent. The first is a kind of regexp match and some tests; the second is more complicated and I can't explain, but it is a sort of score on text coincidences with previous mails that the system has been told previously that are spam.

Except that the messages of mine that are marked as spam always have a score of 5.1, no matter what the Bayes score is, while the ones that are not have a score of (usually) 4.1 -- the exceptions being if they are also marked with "MY LINUX", then the score is usually -0.9.

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participants (6)

Carlos E. R.
Darryl Gregorash
Ed Harrison
Felix Miata
John Andersen
Randall R Schulz