On Tuesday 13 November 2007 20:28, Zhang Weiwu wrote:

Dear all

My friend have finished courses of HTML and CSS (I'd like to say, she got it pretty well) and now is able to work out websites with gedit. She is starting her web design career. Now I am helping her to find out a webside design software for her Linux-based working environment.

kate - http://kate-editor.org/ I used it for filesite.org, perfectreign.com and several other commercial websites. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Kai Ponte wrote:

On Tuesday 13 November 2007 20:28, Zhang Weiwu wrote:

...

Dear all

My friend have finished courses of HTML and CSS (I'd like to say, she got it pretty well) and now is able to work out websites with gedit. She is starting her web design career. Now I am helping her to find out a webside design software for her Linux-based working environment.

kate - http://kate-editor.org/

I used it for filesite.org, perfectreign.com and several other commercial websites.

Do you mean using a text editor for website creation? I use text editor for all of my web creation tasks (I use gvim), but I also think other 'fancy' features are very much helpful for my friend. So I consider a text editor for her is not enough. These fancy features includes: 1. template-based design (IBM Rational Web Developer comes with some 2000 pre-defined templates, for example) 2. site management, reference maintenance (e.g. rename an image file updates all src="" reference to it) 3. easy navigation bar creation and management (including generating menu) 4. .... -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Peter Van Lone wrote:

On Nov 13, 2007 10:51 PM, Zhang Weiwu wrote:

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Zhang Weiwu wrote:

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I remember long time ago I had tried IBM Homepage Builder, which I cannot recall but should have a Linux version. This software also allow easy web design like simple drag & drop. However this software seems to be replaced by IBM's Rational Web Developer for WebSphere. I am going to try this,

I am not able to get trial download of Rational Web Developer: http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/downloads/r/rwd/

I don't seem to be able to get it, either, even after logging in with my IBM registered id

I remember in my college days I had very good impression with IBM Homepage Builder and consider it a far better replacement than Front page, because it contain a lot of templates but meanwhile more flexible than Front page. Very strangely, IBM Homepage Builder and its replacement Rational Web Developer are not even listed as HTML editor in wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_WYSIWYG_HTML_editors Which means they are probably rarely used in productional environment. If IBM Rational Web Developer for Linux is as good as (or better than) IBM Homepage Builder, it deserve a space in Linux community because other Linux website creation tools are more or less too different from commercial solutions like GoLive and Dreamweaver. Problem of IBM is they often have good product and drop them too easily. I remember I had IBM Homepage Builder for Linux CDROM as a give-away from an IBM event in my college days. Now it's lost. -- Real Softservice Huateng Tower, Unit 1788 Jia 302 3rd area of Jinsong, Chao Yang Tel: +86 (10) 8773 0650 ext 603 Mobile: 135 9950 2413 http://www.realss.com -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Zhang Weiwu schreef:

Dear all

My friend have finished courses of HTML and CSS (I'd like to say, she got it pretty well) and now is able to work out websites with gedit. She is starting her web design career. Now I am helping her to find out a webside design software for her Linux-based working environment.

Screem and nvu are not good enough for her, she can work with them but commercial products like GoLive, Macromedia Dreamweaver should be more productive. I also read advertisements from CoffeeCup which also look productive. However non of them have Linux version.

nvu is very good for document authors (I use it to work out most of our office documents) and simple web page creation, but not complex ones, e.g. it's not so easy to create an absolutely positioned <div> in nvu and drag it to the place you want. It's more content oriented than presentation oriented. In general content oriented websites are better, but in practise requirements are usually presentation related.

Quanta plus. Comes with tons of documentation on html, css, Javascript and php. I like it (a lot) better than Dreamweaver, that produces horrible html on occasion and more horrible css. It is infinitely better than Coffeecup. The other one that comes to mind is Bluefish, but I have no experience with that. Regards, -- Jos van Kan registered Linux user #152704 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

peter nikolic wrote:

On Wednesday 14 November 2007, Zhang Weiwu wrote:

...

Dear all

My friend have finished courses of HTML and CSS (I'd like to say, she got it pretty well) and now is able to work out websites with gedit. She is starting her web design career. Now I am helping her to find out a webside design software for her Linux-based working environment.

Quanta Plus is darn good Bluefish is also good .

i have used both of these to produce various website for people ..

Pete .

all this is lowlevel coding - for that purpose, I prefere vi :-) I tryed the high level systems (dreamweaver...), but always had dramatical problems at the worst moment and always reverted to vi. sometime I use the seamonkey editor (aka NVu) when my memory is short or to make colored tables, but then I use copy/paste in gvim... be aware that *it impossible by design* to have a real page setup in html (page setup as one see on paper), because browsers are diffeent and screen sizes are different... many "nice looking" web sites fail dramatically for many clients jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://www.ladepeche.fr/article/2007/10/27/127022-Claire-Dodin-une-Toulousai... -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On 14.11.2007, at 12:55, Billie Walsh wrote:

Kai Ponte wrote:

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On Tuesday 13 November 2007 20:28, Zhang Weiwu wrote:

...

Dear all

My friend have finished courses of HTML and CSS (I'd like to say, she got it pretty well) and now is able to work out websites with gedit. She is starting her web design career. Now I am helping her to find out a webside design software for her Linux-based working environment.

kate - http://kate-editor.org/

I used it for filesite.org, perfectreign.com and several other commercial websites

I think they are wanting a graphical environment. AFAIK, there are only three. Quanta+, part of KDE [ KDE web dev package ], NVU, no longer under development, and KompoZer, kind of a carry on of NVU. There may be others, but I haven't found them. I'm sure someone will know of more. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

I think, Quanta+ is like Dreamweaver. To be honest, I think WYSIWYG editors are just useable in small web projects with out any programming. They are not bed for _designers_ to get in touch with HTML (etc.), but not more. I recommend: * VIM (e.g. GVIM) * Emacs * BlueFish. * Quanta+ * Komodo Edit (http://www.activestate.com/store/productdetail.aspx?prdGuid=20f4ed15-6684-41... ) On OS X I would recommend TextMate (http://macromates.com/). It's a shame, that there is no free editor out there which is so comfortable like TextMate! Cheers! Robert --- Robert Lihm, Webdesigner - Build Service Team SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, Maxfeldstr. 5, D-90409 Nuernberg Tel: +49-911-74053-0 - rlihm@suse.de ____________________________________________________________ SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) ____________________________________________________________ SUSE - a Novell business -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On 14.11.2007, at 17:16, Zhang Weiwu wrote:

Robert Lihm wrote:

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On 14.11.2007, at 12:55, Billie Walsh wrote:

...

Kai Ponte wrote:

...

On Tuesday 13 November 2007 20:28, Zhang Weiwu wrote:

...

Dear all

My friend have finished courses of HTML and CSS (I'd like to say, she got it pretty well) and now is able to work out websites with gedit. She is starting her web design career. Now I am helping her to find out a webside design software for her Linux-based working environment.

kate - http://kate-editor.org/

I used it for filesite.org, perfectreign.com and several other commercial websites

I think they are wanting a graphical environment. AFAIK, there are only three. Quanta+, part of KDE [ KDE web dev package ], NVU, no longer under development, and KompoZer, kind of a carry on of NVU. There may be others, but I haven't found them. I'm sure someone will know of more. --To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

I think, Quanta+ is like Dreamweaver. To be honest, I think WYSIWYG editors are just useable in small web projects with out any programming.

TRUE! That's what she decide to do for her career. She will have a lot of macrobusiness customers and she probably will always forward websites with programming requirements or big ones to other companies. Different people do have different needs (and seems we got a lot of big site developers on this list)

...

They are not bed for _designers_ to get in touch with HTML (etc.), but not more.

Yeah but she don't need more.

...

I recommend:

* VIM (e.g. GVIM) * Emacs * BlueFish. * Quanta+ * Komodo Edit (http://www.activestate.com/store/productdetail.aspx?prdGuid=20f4ed15-6684-41... )

On OS X I would recommend TextMate (http://macromates.com/). It's a shame, that there is no free editor out there which is so comfortable like TextMate!

Yeah gvim is my No.1 choice for my years of web development career. But after having enough touch with people doing different kinds of jobs and living different life style, I am now able to try think user requirements from a lot of different angels. I know what she needs, it is /not/ a text editor. Think about a soho web designer drink coffee with his customer when finishing a business, the customer is a tailor who run macrobusiness. The designer can drag and drop a piece to form a picture and ask the customer do you prefer this color and that shape? He also open gallery to help customer to choose a good background image from www.sxc.hu. If he does all these with a text editor, the customer have already finished several cups and gets either distracted or annoyed by a lot of magic code. The small web site designer simple cannot compete with those who use dreamweaver. These small customers are not the IT manager who draw grant charts and make table of deliverables before starting of a project. To do small web design business you can hardly go without a graphical designer. It's not only a lazy way to avoid learning HTML/CSS. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Yes, that's my experience, too. And that's why Dreamweaver is the de facto standard in all the media agencies! Normally the job of a designer is talking, scratching, pushing pixels (cooking & drinking coffee) ... well designing and not coding. Knowing to much about code can easily kills your creativity! I wish her a lot of luck and not so many stu*** clients ;) Robert --- Robert Lihm, Graphics Designer - Build Service Team SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, Maxfeldstr. 5, D-90409 Nuernberg Tel: +49-911-74053-0 - rlihm@suse.de ____________________________________________________________ SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) ____________________________________________________________ SUSE - a Novell business -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Wednesday 14 November 2007, jdd wrote:

Robert Lihm wrote:

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Yes, that's my experience, too. And that's why Dreamweaver is the de facto standard

and may be it's why so many web site are destructing the company image...

jdd

Agreed. And in my humble experience, working in the XHTML and CSS code directly using powerful tools such as KDEWEBDEV (which contains the famous Quanta+) enables you not only to make better websites but also to make them faster. And speed is needed to minimize the costs and to survive! If I design a website, I do not play with the mouse and push some graphical impressions around. first I try to "see" with my inner eye the website - look and content and structure - which is perfect (imho) for the customer. Based on my knowledge about his business, his customers, his cultural and social environment, his corporate identity (if he has any). Then, when I know what I want - and not before - I take Quanta+ (kdewebdev) and code the HTML and CSS quickly. If the site needs more (PHP) programming than a simple contact form I use a framework such as cakephp (see http://cakephp.org). (I sat next to an Apple guru using Golive for some month, I have seen the difference in results, in both time needed and look of the sites, and last but not least maintainability of the resulting code:) While my dreamweaver or golive friends are still pushing around their mouse trying to understand why there is a gap here and there or why the site looks different in MSIE than in Firefox, I can present my customers their site, and usually it is accepted as it is. So my recommendation for her is to get a good book about XHTML and CSS. may be even the "Dummy Guide CSS Web Design", but there are numerous others, and get a tool like KDEWEBDEV / Quanta+, which gives you all support you need to point and click the HTML elements to the page. I can assure you that her sites will not only be more close to what she imagined (if she has the creativity to imagine a design, and does not depend on playing with pixels until it looks more or less OK), but most of all she will be so much faster, which is key to economical survival as a small web design shop. Just my 2 cents ... Matt -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Wednesday 14 November 2007 08:45:28 pm Zhang Weiwu wrote:

Let's see. I first prepare to use GIMP/Inkscape for prototyping for a customer or two before I try introduce this to her. For me if I wish I can also get in touch some customer with simple web design tasks.

You may try XaraLX as replacement for Incscape. It is in opensuse Education repository. http://download.opensuse.org/repositories/Education:/desktop/openSUSE_10.3/ The installation from Xara web site (not rpm) crashes randomly. -- Regards, Rajko. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Billie Walsh wrote:

If you want a "web" page that looks exactly like a printed page then it would probably be best to use PDF's. As was said, the vagaries of browser interpretation/computers/monitors make it almost impossible to do as a regular HTML [ and related ] page.

eventually, for simple things, use openoffice. It inserts tags making the printed output similar to the openoffice page jdd -- http://www.dodin.net -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org