[opensuse] Disable zypper's check for processes using deleted files

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Andrea Turrini

17 Sep 2012 17 Sep '12

13:03

Hi all, is it possible to tell zypper to do not perform the check for deleted files used by running processes after an update? I tried to search in the man page but I have not found info about this. Best, Andrea -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

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Carlos E. R.

18 Sep 18 Sep

22:55

On Monday, 2012-09-17 at 15:03 +0200, Andrea Turrini wrote:

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is it possible to tell zypper to do not perform the check for deleted files used by running processes after an update?

Why would you want to disable it? -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. (from 12.1 x86_64 "Asparagus" at Telcontar) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Christofer C. Bell

19 Sep 19 Sep

04:57

On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 5:55 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:

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On Monday, 2012-09-17 at 15:03 +0200, Andrea Turrini wrote:

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is it possible to tell zypper to do not perform the check for deleted files used by running processes after an update?

Why would you want to disable it?

Another alternative is to simply ignore the prompt. Since I can't imagine a circumstance under which one would not appreciate the warning, I can imagine that there's been no development effort invested in being able to disable it. I wish this function would come to yum and apt-get! -- Chris -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Andrea Turrini

07:19

2012/9/19 Christofer C. Bell :

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On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 5:55 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:

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On Monday, 2012-09-17 at 15:03 +0200, Andrea Turrini wrote:

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is it possible to tell zypper to do not perform the check for deleted files used by running processes after an update?

Why would you want to disable it?

Because I find it useless for my purposes as I shutdown my system every day (it is a laptop, not a server); moreover, zypper and yast behaviors are different.

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Another alternative is to simply ignore the prompt. Since I can't imagine a circumstance under which one would not appreciate the warning, I can imagine that there's been no development effort invested in being able to disable it. I wish this function would come to yum and apt-get!

In fact I ignore the prompt but anyway I find it annoying. I think that it is a good think that when you add a new functionality that is not mandatory but you consider it useful, you can enable it by default but allow users to disable it via a command-line or config file option. Best, Andrea -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Carlos E. R.

08:21

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2012-09-19 09:19, Andrea Turrini wrote:

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2012/9/19 Christofer C. Bell <>:

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Why would you want to disable it?

Because I find it useless for my purposes as I shutdown my system every day (it is a laptop, not a server); moreover, zypper and yast behaviors are different.

I don't see the relation between system shutdown and zypper.

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In fact I ignore the prompt but anyway I find it annoying. I think that it is a good think that when you add a new functionality that is not mandatory but you consider it useful, you can enable it by default but allow users to disable it via a command-line or config file option.

But it is mandatory... :-) Just give thanks that it doesn't issue an 'wall' :-p - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 12.1 x86_64 "Asparagus" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.18 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAlBZgH0ACgkQIvFNjefEBxpS6wCffTfy0OoOnEXeDgP5oQnhZBMi zA0Ani4Mpszz++Xp5k5fCQ4LICWkn7sb =YNj0 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Andrea Turrini

08:53

2012/9/19 Carlos E. R. :

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Because I find it useless for my purposes as I shutdown my system every day (it is a laptop, not a server); moreover, zypper and yast behaviors are different.

I don't see the relation between system shutdown and zypper.

If I have understood correctly, the aim of this check is to inform you that some used file has been changed, so by "zypper ps" you can find which processes are affected and then restart them manually. Since I shutdown the system daily, I postpone their restart to the next boot, so I do not need to be informed about such processes.

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But it is mandatory... :-) Just give thanks that it doesn't issue an 'wall' :-p

Oh well, at least it does not ask you to reboot the system *now* to apply changes ;-) Best, Andrea -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Eric Gunther

20:27

Hi, did you try here: http://lists.opensuse.org/zypp-devel/ -e On Wed, 2012-09-19 at 10:53 +0200, Andrea Turrini wrote:

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2012/9/19 Carlos E. R. :

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Because I find it useless for my purposes as I shutdown my system every day (it is a laptop, not a server); moreover, zypper and yast behaviors are different.

I don't see the relation between system shutdown and zypper.

If I have understood correctly, the aim of this check is to inform you that some used file has been changed, so by "zypper ps" you can find which processes are affected and then restart them manually. Since I shutdown the system daily, I postpone their restart to the next boot, so I do not need to be informed about such processes.

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But it is mandatory... :-) Just give thanks that it doesn't issue an 'wall' :-p

Oh well, at least it does not ask you to reboot the system *now* to apply changes ;-)

Best, Andrea

-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Andrea Turrini

20 Sep 20 Sep

06:52

2012/9/19 Eric Gunther :

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Hi,

did you try here:

http://lists.opensuse.org/zypp-devel/

I will try, as I would like to propose my implementation of the disable option. For sure it has to be improved before even submitting it. Best, Andrea PS: sorry Eric for the double message, but I forgot to include the ML. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Rajko

19 Sep 19 Sep

23:37

On Wed, 19 Sep 2012 10:53:45 +0200 Andrea Turrini wrote:

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If I have understood correctly, the aim of this check is to inform you that some used file has been changed,

Right.

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so by "zypper ps" you can find which processes are affected and then restart them manually.

Right.

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Since I shutdown the system daily, I postpone their restart to the next boot, so I do not need to be informed about such processes.

You better be informed and restart as soon as possible. That warning is not a case of over engineering, it is necessity. Applications use libraries that are loaded in a memory. If library is common to many applications, another that starts will use the same library instance, it will not load new one. Library will stay in memory as long as any applications is using it. When you run KDE then kdelibs are loaded very early and they will be unloaded from memory only when the last application that is using them exits. During daily use kdelibs and application versions match and all is working without problems. Whatever version is on a hard disk, the same is in the memory. Mismatch can't happen, unless one is mixing repos and forcing installations that zypper is complaining about. When you run update that will download and install on a disk new version of kdelibs and all applications that need them, but those that are already loaded in a memory are old versions. What will happen when you, or worse system, start some of updated applications? It will ask for libraries, but as they are already in a memory system will not load new, matching version, and application will use old version. We have library mismatch problem. Sometimes it doesn't matter, sometimes it blows in the face, like when misbehaving application takes down whole desktop and Xorg, leaving you without few hours of work. -- Regards, Rajko. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Andrea Turrini

20 Sep 20 Sep

06:47

2012/9/20 Rajko :

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You better be informed and restart as soon as possible.

If I want to be informed, I run "zypper ps", that I have to run in any case if I want to identify affected processes.

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That warning is not a case of over engineering, it is necessity.

So, if it is a necessity, why is it missing in YaST? I think it is more useful for ordinary users that install/update their system via YaST than for more expert users using zypper. [big snip]

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Sometimes it doesn't matter, sometimes it blows in the face, like when misbehaving application takes down whole desktop and Xorg, leaving you without few hours of work.

If I am an expert user and I disable/ignore such warnings as my explicit choice, then it is up to me to manage problems may occur from my choice. Blame on me if I lose work as a consequence of my decision. On the other hand, if I am an ordinary user using YaST, then I am not aware of such warnings (since they are not provided in YaST) and then when I face problems coming from library mismatches, I lose my work without having any idea about why this has happened. In this case, who should I blame? Best, Andrea -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Carlos E. R.

17:25

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 On 2012-09-20 08:47, Andrea Turrini wrote:

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2012/9/20 Rajko <>:

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That warning is not a case of over engineering, it is necessity.

So, if it is a necessity, why is it missing in YaST? I think it is more useful for ordinary users that install/update their system via YaST than for more expert users using zypper.

Yes, YaST should also do that test. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.4 x86_64 "Celadon" (Minas Tirith)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iF4EAREIAAYFAlBbUYYACgkQja8UbcUWM1yQ3gEAoWmHPtKgAbYb3Cg40yIe+EXM +UBLaenhFuJe8ysthksBAJ1muRXpwYn7uaMzHZczrs8u5Z6cPfO3H4mZur3nDsNJ =pUP8 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Rajko

17:55

On Thu, 20 Sep 2012 08:47:52 +0200 Andrea Turrini wrote:

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2012/9/20 Rajko :

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You better be informed and restart as soon as possible.

If I want to be informed, I run "zypper ps", that I have to run in any case if I want to identify affected processes.

I still don't get what is the problem? It is something like 1 or 2 lines. I don't know what language version you are using, but in English, message is only warning and only recommendation to run 'zypper ps', if user wants to. For sure, it doesn't suggest that one must run 'zypper ps' or else :) I would understand that you are upset if 'zypper ps' would run automatically, scroll up and out of your sight other information, but it is only 1 or 2 lines.

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That warning is not a case of over engineering, it is necessity.

So, if it is a necessity, why is it missing in YaST?

That something is missing in YaST doesn't mean it is not needed. It could be that is not implemented yet, or it will appear only when you configure YaST software management to show summary. Default is just to exit. I use summary, but have no pending updates right now so I can't check. Problem is also that warning does not appear when update is applied to software that is not running, so it can be even harder to test.

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I think it is more useful for ordinary users that install/update their system via YaST than for more expert users using zypper.

I think it is good to use whatever floats your boat. For me both, zypper and YaST Software Management, and related modules, have almost distinctive use. For instance: * add, remove repo -> zypper * managing all repos at once -> YaST * any search more complex then: zypper se <string> -> YaST * all updates -> zypper and so on. It is used whatever is faster for me. Other people may find different combination as better, or can use only one them.

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... Sometimes it doesn't matter, sometimes it blows in the face, ... If I am an expert user and I disable/ignore such warnings as my explicit choice, then it is up to me to manage problems may occur from my choice.

You are right, although, none of expert users will ignore that message. They will acknowledge it and: * continue using computer, or * check with 'zypper ps' what has changed and then decide what is the most appropriate action: ** continue using computer, ** reboot, ** log out and log in, ** change system run level to single and back to previous (graphic), ** restart service or application. My choice really depends on situation and, at one time or another, I used each of listed options.

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On the other hand, if I am an ordinary user using YaST, then I am not aware of such warnings (since they are not provided in YaST) ... In this case, who should I blame?

YaST developers for missing warning, and yourself for not knowing machinery that you use :) Even without warning experienced user will know from list of updated packages what is the next step. BTW, did you try to run 'zypper ps' after YaST Online Update? It should work. And now thank you note: I was helping many openSUSE users, and not once stumbled on a problem like: * P: nvidia (amd, vbox) driver compilation bails out with message about missing sources, headers etc, although user claims it is all installed. * S: After checking what is installed with rpm, and what is running with 'uname -r' there was mismatch. Reboot solved the problem. Thanks to your complaint my list of items to watch is a bit bigger and 'zypper ps' will find its use on the other people computers, as a debugging tool :)

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Best, Andrea

-- Regards, Rajko. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Andrea Turrini

20:16

On 09/20/2012 07:55 PM, Rajko wrote:

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I still don't get what is the problem? It is something like 1 or 2 lines.

There is no real problem but as I wrote in my initial reply to Carlos, I find it useless for my purposes, so I asked if it is possible to disable it. Up to now, no one answered to my initial question. I have had to find the answer by myself by looking inside the source code.

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I don't know what language version you are using, but in English, message is only warning and only recommendation to run 'zypper ps', if user wants to. For sure, it doesn't suggest that one must run 'zypper ps' or else :)

I use English and the exact message is: There are some running programs that use files deleted by recent upgrade. You may wish to restart some of them. Run 'zypper ps' to list these programs. So, if I want to list affected programs, I have to run "zypper ps", as I wrote. Or do you know another way to obtain such list? Well, for install/update, by some advanced bash scripting you can combine zypper history, rpm contents and lists of files used by running processes in order to find such processes, but when you remove packages...

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So, if it is a necessity, why is it missing in YaST?

That something is missing in YaST doesn't mean it is not needed.

It is useful but it is not a necessity (in the meaning given by logic to the term necessity).

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It could be that is not implemented yet, or it will appear only when you configure YaST software management to show summary. Default is just to exit.

I use summary, but have no pending updates right now so I can't check. Problem is also that warning does not appear when update is applied to software that is not running, so it can be even harder to test.

I think it is not implemented since if implemented, it is well hidden or at least I am not able to find it: I checked each menu but nothing seems to recall such functionality. As you, I use summary and the only available logs are the Installation log (list of changed packages) and Post-Installation log (output of SUSEconfig).

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I think it is more useful for ordinary users that install/update their system via YaST than for more expert users using zypper.

I think it is good to use whatever floats your boat.

but if you have to row, it is better to jettison unnecessary ballast.

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For me both, zypper and YaST Software Management, and related modules, have almost distinctive use.

For me too.

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Even without warning experienced user will know from list of updated packages what is the next step.

So they do not need this reminder since: updated firefox -> restart firefox; updated kernel -> reboot; updated manufacturer_PPDs -> restart cups; updated gimp -> ignore (gimp not running) updated unknown library -> zypper ps. Summing up: experienced users do not need the warning as they know what to do; non-experienced users usually use YaST and they do not have warnings since YaST does not show them.

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BTW, did you try to run 'zypper ps' after YaST Online Update? It should work.

With YaST sw_single it works (YOU not tried), but it has strange side effects on yast such as: "Deleting <package>" while sw_single is installing it and no Installation log available in the summary. Bug report?

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Thanks to your complaint my list of items to watch is a bit bigger and 'zypper ps' will find its use on the other people computers, as a debugging tool :)

So this discussion has been useful for one thing more... good. Best, Andrea -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Rajko

21:09

On Thu, 20 Sep 2012 22:16:32 +0200 Andrea Turrini wrote:

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With YaST sw_single it works (YOU not tried), but it has strange side effects on yast such as: "Deleting <package>" while sw_single is installing it and no Installation log available in the summary.

Bug report?

If you run them at the same time it can have strange effects. It all depends who blocks whom and what, so little bit more details with some timeline of events would help to see what to file as a bug report. If you can't see what is going on in normal logs, maybe running 'yast2 sw_single' in a debug logging mode can help. http://en.opensuse.org/SDB:YaST_tricks#YaST_Hotkeys -- Regards, Rajko. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Carlos E. R.

21:54

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 On 2012-09-20 22:16, Andrea Turrini wrote:

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On 09/20/2012 07:55 PM, Rajko wrote:

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Even without warning experienced user will know from list of updated packages what is the next step.

So they do not need this reminder since: updated firefox -> restart firefox; updated kernel -> reboot; updated manufacturer_PPDs -> restart cups; updated gimp -> ignore (gimp not running) updated unknown library -> zypper ps.

Summing up: experienced users do not need the warning as they know what to do; non-experienced users usually use YaST and they do not have warnings since YaST does not show them.

No, I do not agree that experienced users will know. I'm experienced, and I don't know all the affected processes. Sometime a package is updated and running "zypper ps" I learn that I have to restart the entire computer. Or at least gnome. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.4 x86_64 "Celadon" (Minas Tirith)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iF4EAREIAAYFAlBbkJgACgkQja8UbcUWM1yXKQD9F+0CCoOBMJ6ssfKG+50EeLXO IpxuBfGj28vN2KSicgIA/RPDHbIN0XBDe8kdH2QFgWIJSafzahIJTGl6y/NnRC7V =BeYb -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Per Jessen

06:54

Andrea Turrini wrote:

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Hi all,

is it possible to tell zypper to do not perform the check for deleted files used by running processes after an update?

Hi Andrea, Unless I am mistaken, you're asking about disabling a _message_? Not a prompt that requires interaction, but only a message? I think the best place to take this is probably http://features.opensuse.org/ -- Per Jessen, Zürich (8.4°C) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Andrea Turrini

07:07

2012/9/20 Per Jessen :

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Andrea Turrini wrote:

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Hi all,

is it possible to tell zypper to do not perform the check for deleted files used by running processes after an update?

Hi Andrea,

Unless I am mistaken, you're asking about disabling a _message_? Not a prompt that requires interaction, but only a message? I think the best place to take this is probably http://features.opensuse.org/

Not only the message, the whole check. As I wrote in another mail, I have already implemented such option, even if I am sure it has to be improved since I know about coding but I am not a programmer (and this is the first time I look inside zypper code). Best, Andrea -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Per Jessen

07:19

Andrea Turrini wrote:

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2012/9/20 Per Jessen :

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Andrea Turrini wrote:

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Hi all,

is it possible to tell zypper to do not perform the check for deleted files used by running processes after an update?

Hi Andrea,

Unless I am mistaken, you're asking about disabling a _message_? Not a prompt that requires interaction, but only a message? I think the best place to take this is probably http://features.opensuse.org/

Not only the message, the whole check. As I wrote in another mail, I have already implemented such option, even if I am sure it has to be improved since I know about coding but I am not a programmer (and this is the first time I look inside zypper code).

Personally speaking, I don't really see the need nor the business case, but if you submit your fix to the maintainer or put it on http://features.opensuse.org/, I'm sure someone will consider it. Or maybe write a quick posting to zypp-devel. You can look up the maintainer with "osc maintainer". -- Per Jessen, Zürich (9.1°C) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

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participants (6)

Andrea Turrini
Carlos E. R.
Christofer C. Bell
Eric Gunther
Per Jessen
Rajko