Its not over until the fat lady sings, I see no fat lady. Maybe a plump Penguin, but he does not seem to sing... Matt -- "The only thing complex about Linux are the users themselves." On 12 Jun 2001, dids wrote:

Oops what I mean to imply was how irrelevant these doomsayers seem to be sometimes.

...

These zdnet articles are so dull. Sometimes I want to see everyone using linux and others I am glad to be one of the select and knowing "few". check the FAQ at http://www.suse.com/support/faq and the archives at http://lists.suse.com

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<rant> Yep, same for me. I didn't even know where computers were at technologically before I went back to college at age 30. The last and greatest computer I was familiar with was a (get this) - a Commadore64 :). When I was going to Jr college I spent a little time in the computer lab to write papers, and then my roommate got something like a 486pc. By the time I got to UCLA I was the defacto Comp Rm help. I mean I got so many questions from Masters and Doctorate students it wasn't funny - all I had to do is use my head. Now when I arrived at UW-Madison I bought my own computer my second year - a P60, that was like in 96/97- a year later I had a P200 tricked out as much as possible for gaming. But I got fed up with M$ products. I don't know how many times I had to stay up until the wee hours of the morning rewriting papers because windows would crash and I had to type 3-4 pages over (one night It crashed and corrupted the HD - god I was pi##ed). The year after I graduated I got Corel Linux for my B-Day, 3 months later - Mandrake 7.1. Now I'm doing SuSE and it kicks ass. Games run great. Reiser fs saves me the worry of crashed drives and lost work. People are afraid of change and things they don't understand. I have never been afraid to try things - if I fail I learn. That's what I learned that translated straight to Linux. I can't stand to be in an M$ environment - it's stupid and gives me the whillies. Case in point - I'm an R.N. on a neurological unit with an ICU. They use NT on the computers and to access the data base. Today "EVERY" computer locked up when trying to access patient records. We were back to "manual" data searches for patient info and data. Do you want to trust your health and well being to M$? I know I sure the f$%k don't. And if my patients knew what I know - THEY WOULDN'T EITHER. Linux rocks and at it's present state and it's future promise M$ knows it - and that explains the barrage of FUD. </rant> Just my rant, Cheers. Curtis On Tuesday 12 June 2001 09:48 pm, TRBishop wrote:

On Tuesday 12 June 2001 10:23 am, StarTux wrote:

...

Its not over until the fat lady sings, I see no fat lady. Maybe a plump Penguin, but he does not seem to sing...

I'm just a dumb-ass floor layer who until about four or five years ago, didn't even own a computer. Linux is soooo complex, that I now have a five node home LAN (excluding Vmware machines) with one of the machines acting as a dedicated server/router (SuSE, of course). That machine also runs a virtual machine with e-smith acting as a file server,etc., just for fun. I can't stand using any of our windows-based machines...they are so one-dimensional. If......I mean when, something goes wrong, I'm looking for the command line to get at the problem. The evolution of the linux desktop since my first distro (sorry, RH 5.2) has been phenomenal, to say the least. Because of Linux, I have learned a bunch about hardware, a little programming, a little networking and a lot about choice. I guess having been an independent contractor for 25 years (stress on independent) it just suits me. I am not a follower, and I would suggest, neither is any Linux user. Linux may seem complex to some people, but then again, they probably have velcro fasteners on their shoes, too! Here, let me help you with those, Mr. Coursey....

I would add to this that people that have something to accomplish don't want to waste time with experimentation or mucking about in an operating system. They not only lack the interest, but they are also just trying to get work done. Beyond that, they really don't care how cool the OS is. Most of the business folks I know are this way, and that is OK. They should not have to worry about tweaking an application or OS in order to get their work done. This gives a lot of credence to the notion of a computer as an appliance that requires no more thought to use than the telephone. A better metaphor might be a computer as a toolbox. I don't want to think about how the handle of the screwdriver that I choose might be better shaped - I just want to use it to remove or replace a screw. No OS meets this criteria today. One advantage of MS's ubiquitousness is that it takes little thought to move from one computer to another. The goal is to get useful work done, not be absorbed in how the appliance works (or doesn't in some cases ;-) ). My $0.02. -ronc On Wednesday 13 June 2001 10:19, Paul Abrahams wrote:

Curtis Rey wrote:

...

Now I'm doing SuSE and it kicks ass. Games run great. Reiser fs saves me the worry of crashed drives and lost work. People are afraid of change and things they don't understand. I have never been afraid to try things - if I fail I learn. That's what I learned that translated straight to Linux.

Alas, that's exactly one of the reasons why Linux is having such a hard time making headway in the desktop market. Unlike you, Curtis, most people are afraid to try things, particularly when it comes to computers. If Linux isn't easy to use when you don't know much and aren't very smart, then how is Walmart going to sell a Linux machine to its average customer?

But of course that's just half the story. The other half is the lock that MS has on the retail marketers both direct (Gateway, Dell) and indirect (PC Connection, Best Buy, Costco, etc.) combined with the plethora of Windows-only software (Quicken, Photoshop, many games) and hardware (Winmodems, some video cards).

One of the smartest innovations that KDE2 introduced (with KDM) is the fully automated login. It may give Unix security buffs conniptions, but being able to turn on your machine and after a minute or so have a fully usable desktop without doing anything more is a real advance in usability.

Paul

On Wed, 13 Jun 2001, Doug McGarrett wrote: dm> Boy, does this message hit the spot! Until Linux installs as dm> easily as Windows, and has about as many programs that most people dm> want, the Linux community will be about the size that it is now. dm> Sure, we have this list. But I asked a detailed question on this dm> list a few days ago and got _one_ very oblique answer to _one_ of dm> the various questions I asked. The answer did not help, as I dm> could not understand it. The rest of the questions went to dm> /dev/nul/. All I really want is that my email work. No help. dm> I'm sorry, but I'm really unhappy with the results (?) here. I dm> don't think I have been grouchy on the list, and I have dm> occasionally been able to contribute. But _nada_! So I'm still dm> running Windows and Eudora. I have no choice. --doug dm> Post your question(s) again, personally, I don't recall actually seeing it, not to say it wasn't there. I probably blew right by it. Either that or the questions might not have made sense or didn't jar something in someones mind when they read it. I can recall a few times I've posted a question and never received a response, after a week or two I reposted but worded it differently and received about five responses to it. :) dm> dm> -- S.Toms - smotrs@mindspring.com - www.mindspring.com/~smotrs SuSE Linux v7.0+ - Kernel 2.2.18 When all other means of communication fail, try words.

* Doug McGarrett (dougmack@i-2000.com) [010613 18:12]: ->Boy, does this message hit the spot! Until Linux installs as easily as ->Windows, and has about as many programs that most people want, the Linux ->community will be about the size that it is now. Sure, we have this list. ->But I asked a detailed question on this list a few days ago and got _one_ ->very oblique answer to _one_ of the various questions I asked. The answer ->did not help, as I could not understand it. The rest of the questions ->went to /dev/nul/. All I really want is that my email work. No help. ->I'm sorry, but I'm really unhappy with the results (?) here. I don't think ->I have been grouchy on the list, and I have occasionally been able to ->contribute. But _nada_! So I'm still running Windows and Eudora. ->I have no choice. --doug Doug, I will tell you what. If not one answers your reposted question by the time I get back from Toronto (monday night)...I will personally make it my mission to get your email working if I have to call your isp myself. Kmail works fine..95% of the time...but sometimes it's cranky. You can't tell me that Outbreak 2000/Express isn't cranky..I used Eudora from 1.2 - 4.2 ..and I *know* it has it's moments as well. I'm going to say something and it may offend you .. it may not. As far as this "magical" as many programs as Windows has..you mean once it has Windows namebrand programs such as Quicken and Photoshop. Well, it isn't going to happen for quite sometime. Mainly because even though Linux probably has 5-8% of the market .. these companies don't see that Linux is a viable platform to produce closed source payware. They still think that for the most part Linux people are just free beer people. And I would tend to agree with this assumption. But as the Linux userbase grows and believe me it will. People will start using things such as Kaptial, Moneydance and other payware. When people discover how good Gimp is and how much it improves every month and they start using it for their graphics work...these companies will see their markte dwindel and they will be broadsided by this and start porting their software to Linux. MacOSX will be another key factor here. Because of it's Unix base..it will be much easier to make changes to that code and port it over to Linux. As these things occur then the market will grow and grow. You have to think about the fact that Linux as a true desktop has only really started to happen in the last 2.5 years. Microsoft on the other hand has had 4X that amount of time to embed themselves in the market. The thing is...people are getting sick of there crapware. I hear people at work..in marketing, sales and other non-tech dept's talking about Linux as a solution. Those are the people we will reach...then as Emeril says..*BAM*..it's time to kick it up a notch! :) In the last 5 years since I started using Linux...it has grown by like which you have never seen. To go from 0.5% to 5.0% in just under 2.5 years. It's amazing. You just have to give it a bit of time. I'm sorry that your question as detailed as it was got ignored. We do try to help everyone on this list as much as we can. Don't think of me as arrogant or anything, but I usually just esc+d threads about kmail, ppp and other things that because of my schedule. I just don't have time to read. There are a lot of others here who have..do..will deal with these types of questions. I help where I can and so do many others. I will say this as well...Don't give up so easy. Life is nothing but a series of challenges. If you don't want the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow then I would stick with what keeps you the most happy, but if you want learn something as well as be productive. Then stick with it. You won't be disappointed..you may not be using the brandname products that your use to buying in the store..well, hell..if .nYet takes off the NO one will be buying products from stores ..it will all be downloaded. And HOT DAMN..I will never, ever have to hear again that Windows has more software at CompUSA then Linux does. Windows users will have to download their software just as we have been doing for years now. *grin*. Have a good weekend and don't sweat it. It will all come together nicely. Regards, -- Ben Rosenberg mailto:ben@whack.org ----- "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin

Yep,

But with Open Source and Open standards this can be achieved more readily :-). My arms hurt too much after a medical, so I let you think up was in which this will work.

Perhaps. I don't think that this has been proved one way or another yet. Certainly the potential has been demonstrated - we see it as Linux people every day, hence our frustration with the current state of affairs.

I think of it like a car, complex thing that you really do not need to know how the mechanics work, but its damn useful if you do...

Agreed. And satisfying as well! The pleasures of which others will never know... but then, I could never see what anyone finds in golf, either. :-)

Matt

On Wednesday 13 June 2001 16:30, you wrote:

The current level and speed of development Linux is on-track. Consider how many years it took M$ to get to its present state and then look how long the desktop environment for Linux has been under development - Linux developments have been on a much faster track. It's just more FUD - vague unsubstantiated half-truths. Be patient and let the developers do what they do.

It is indeed more FUD. It's patently obvious that most of the pronouncements of "the Linux desktop is dead" are written by people who don't even use it! This guy Coursey says: "Why? Because Linux is too complex, and there isn't enough money to make it worth someone's time to build a really great environment for desktop apps." Err, that great desktop environment is just about complete. It comes with Scilab (math package), Xfig Killustrator, Dia, Sketch, Gnumeric, Kspread, etc. It is painfully obvious that this guy has not spent much time using it. Also, all the references to "religious fanatics" are just the taunts of a troll. As for the speed of development, Koffice was frozen today. So From here until it's release on 13 August, as 1.1 final, there are only bugfixes. The next major milestone is Koffice 1.1 beta 3 due out on 25 June. KDE 2.2 is to be released on 30 July. That's the reason for all the FUD; the desktops are improving and rapidly:-). The opposition only wishes they were a failure. -- Cheers, Jonathan