SuSE 9.3 - Is it really that bad?
I have ripped most of my CD's to mp3. I got a rude awakening when I tried to play some this morning. The only way I can play them is through realplayer!!! How sad! I usually play music in the background while at work. To do that now would be so tedious. Does anyone know of a quick fix or should I be looking for a different distro.? Eddie
* eddieleprince
I have ripped most of my CD's to mp3. I got a rude awakening when I tried to play some this morning. The only way I can play them is through realplayer!!! How sad! I usually play music in the background while at work. To do that now would be so tedious. Does anyone know of a quick fix or should I be looking for a different distro.?
YOU should have updated packages that allow mp3 playing. File: Multimedia-Option-Pack-1-52079 23 KB 06.04.2005 11:10:00 File: Multimedia-Option-Pack-2-52099 26 KB 06.04.2005 21:11:00 File: Multimedia-Option-Pack-3-52082 25 KB 06.04.2005 11:12:00 File: Multimedia-Option-Pack-4-52098 35 KB 06.04.2005 21:10:00 packman http://packman.iu-bremen.de/ also has a dungload of goodies and there is: http://forums.suselinuxsupport.de/index.php?showtopic=14454&st=0 Kind regards, -- Gerhard den Hollander Phone :+31-70.3.111.515 Global ICT manager Direct:+31-70.3.111.539 Fugro-Jason Fax :+31-70.3.111.511 gdenhollander@Fugro-Jason.com POBox 35 visit us at http://www.Fugro-Jason.com 2260 AA Leidschendam The Netherlands This e-mail and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the addressee. This e-mail shall not be deemed binding unless confirmed in writing. If you have received it by mistake, please let us know by e-mail reply and delete it from your system; you may not copy this message or disclose its contents to anyone. Please note that any views or opinions presented in this e-mail are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of the company. E-mail transmission cannot be guaranteed to be secure or error-free. The sender therefore does not accept liability for any errors or omissions in the contents of this message, which arise as a result of e-mail transmission.
On Friday 22 April 2005 09:57, Gerhard den Hollander wrote:
* eddieleprince
(Fri, Apr 22, 2005 at 09:48:09AM +0100) I have ripped most of my CD's to mp3. I got a rude awakening when I tried to play some this morning. The only way I can play them is through realplayer!!! How sad! I usually play music in the background while at work. To do that now would be so tedious. Does anyone know of a quick fix or should I be looking for a different distro.?
YOU should have updated packages that allow mp3 playing. File: Multimedia-Option-Pack-1-52079 23 KB 06.04.2005 11:10:00 File: Multimedia-Option-Pack-2-52099 26 KB 06.04.2005 21:11:00 File: Multimedia-Option-Pack-3-52082 25 KB 06.04.2005 11:12:00 File: Multimedia-Option-Pack-4-52098 35 KB 06.04.2005 21:10:00
packman http://packman.iu-bremen.de/ also has a dungload of goodies
and there is: http://forums.suselinuxsupport.de/index.php?showtopic=14454&st=0
Kind regards, -- Gerhard den Hollander Phone :+31-70.3.111.515 Global ICT manager Direct:+31-70.3.111.539 Fugro-Jason Fax :+31-70.3.111.511 gdenhollander@Fugro-Jason.com POBox 35 visit us at http://www.Fugro-Jason.com 2260 AA Leidschendam The Netherlands
This e-mail and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the addressee. This e-mail shall not be deemed binding unless confirmed in writing. If you have received it by mistake, please let us know by e-mail reply and delete it from your system; you may not copy this message or disclose its contents to anyone. Please note that any views or opinions presented in this e-mail are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of the company. E-mail transmission cannot be guaranteed to be secure or error-free. The sender therefore does not accept liability for any errors or omissions in the contents of this message, which arise as a result of e-mail transmission.
Thanks a million, Gerhard. I'm enjoying my music right now! Eddie
Silviu Marin-Caea wrote:
On Friday 22 April 2005 12:11, eddieleprince wrote:
Thanks a million, Gerhard. I'm enjoying my music right now!
And in the future, rip to .ogg :-)
After my recent experience, I would agree. I just got an iRiver IFP-790T that plays both mp3 and ogg. I ripped a cd to mp3, and just to compare also ripped it to ogg. I was amazed the mp3s took 75M, oggs took 44M, and sounded just a clear. More space efficient, great sounding, open source, what's not to like. ;-) -- Joe Morris New Tribes Mission Email Address: Joe_Morris@ntm.org Registered Linux user 231871
On Friday 22 Apr 2005 17:25, Joe Morris (NTM) wrote:
Silviu Marin-Caea wrote:
On Friday 22 April 2005 12:11, eddieleprince wrote:
Thanks a million, Gerhard. I'm enjoying my music right now!
And in the future, rip to .ogg :-)
After my recent experience, I would agree. I just got an iRiver IFP-790T that plays both mp3 and ogg. I ripped a cd to mp3, and just to compare also ripped it to ogg. I was amazed the mp3s took 75M, oggs took 44M, and sounded just a clear. More space efficient, great sounding, open source, what's not to like. ;-) -- Joe Morris New Tribes Mission Email Address: Joe_Morris@ntm.org Registered Linux user 231871
Many standalone DVD players will play mp3 format. Will they also play ogg? What about other mp3 players will they play ogg format too? Eddie
On Sat, 2005-04-23 at 13:56 +0100, eddieleprince wrote:
On Friday 22 Apr 2005 17:25, Joe Morris (NTM) wrote: Many standalone DVD players will play mp3 format. Will they also play ogg? What about other mp3 players will they play ogg format too?
Eddie
I guess you will have to read the box before you buy it and see what it supports. Find the model number and google for it and see what it supports. -- Ken Schneider UNIX since 1989, linux since 1994, SuSE since 1998 "The day Microsoft makes something that doesn't suck is probably the day they start making vacuum cleaners." -Ernst Jan Plugge
eddieleprince wrote:
On Friday 22 Apr 2005 17:25, Joe Morris (NTM) wrote:
After my recent experience, I would agree. I just got an iRiver IFP-790T that plays both mp3 and ogg. I ripped a cd to mp3, and just to compare also ripped it to ogg. I was amazed the mp3s took 75M, oggs took 44M, and sounded just a clear. More space efficient, great sounding, open source, what's not to like. ;-) Many standalone DVD players will play mp3 format. Will they also play ogg? What about other mp3 players will they play ogg format too?
I don't know about all DVD players nor mp3 players, but the fact the IFP-790T DID play ogg was one of the reasons I chose it. If it was a feature people bought, I'm sure more would. Besides, I was just pointing out some of the benefits, not prohibiting the OP's use of mp3. But IF someone rips a lot of music to their computer, the space difference would convince me to rip to ogg instead of mp3. -- Joe Morris New Tribes Mission Email Address: Joe_Morris@ntm.org Registered Linux user 231871
On Sat, 2005-04-23 at 14:56, eddieleprince wrote:
Many standalone DVD players will play mp3 format. Will they also play ogg? What about other mp3 players will they play ogg format too?
Eddie
True, ogg/vorbis sounds better and requires less space, But players are hard to find, allthough they do exist: http://www.kiss-technology.com/?p=dp500&v=users http://www.ism-technologies.com/fr/iops.php Hans
Hans, On Saturday 23 April 2005 08:38, Hans Witvliet wrote:
On Sat, 2005-04-23 at 14:56, eddieleprince wrote:
Many standalone DVD players will play mp3 format. Will they also play ogg? What about other mp3 players will they play ogg format too?
Eddie
True, ogg/vorbis sounds better and requires less space, But players are hard to find, allthough they do exist:
The Rio Karma (from DNNA, Digital Networks North America), which can now be had for less than $200, supports Ogg-Vorbis and FLAC: http://www.digitalnetworksna.com/shop/_templates/item_main_Rio.asp?model=261&cat=72 There are many reviews and at least of couple of Web sites devoted to the Rio line. The Karma is well designed and featureful. It has at least some support, via its Ethernet interface and Java software, for Linux. There are some host-based software functions (device firmware update chief among them) that can only be accomplished from the Windows software. I have not yet ascertained whether this software works from CrossOver / Wine or from VMWare, though I'm about to try the latter.
Hans
Randall Schulz
eddieleprince wrote:
I have ripped most of my CD's to mp3. I got a rude awakening when I tried to play some this morning. The only way I can play them is through realplayer!!! How sad! I usually play music in the background while at work. To do that now would be so tedious. Does anyone know of a quick fix or should I be looking for a different distro.?
Eddie
The reason we have to put up with this "mp3/dvd disabled" crap is due to yours and my friends at the RIAA/MPAA. The European and Asian version of Linux distros (of which SuSE used to be - until Novell bought it) didn't have to worry as much. Anyway. Packman is your friend. You'll need to DL the packages that others have mentioned from the Packman site (and it provides both Deutsche and English sites). The DeCSS stuff is not directly available from the Packman site - due to fairly recent changes in German law regarding this issue. However, he does link to the site for the DeCSS package with instructions on how to implement it. Once installed it just works! Also there are a lot of other ancillary packages you may find usefull as well. HTH, Curtis.
On Saturday 23 April 2005 05:18 pm, Curtis Rey wrote:
eddieleprince wrote:
I have ripped most of my CD's to mp3. I got a rude awakening when I tried to play some this morning. The only way I can play them is through realplayer!!!
A question about this. I was recently given a cd player that plays mp3 but not ogg. But mopst of the stuff on this box is ogg. What's the best way to convert it to mp3 before I put it on a cd? -- Bob Rea mailto:gapetard@stsams.org http://www.petard.us http://www.petard.us/blog http://www.petard.us/gallery Time is the best teacher. Unfortunately it kills all its students.
On Sunday 24 April 2005 14:24, Bob Rea wrote:
A question about this. I was recently given a cd player that plays mp3 but not ogg. But mopst of the stuff on this box is ogg. What's the best way to convert it to mp3 before I put it on a cd?
oggdec -o - filename.ogg | lame - filename.mp3 To do an entire directory, you'd use something like for i in *.ogg; do oggdec -o - $i | lame - ${i%.ogg}.mp3 done If your CD player supports firmware upgrades you might want to check if one is available that supports ogg before you start
Bob, On Sunday 24 April 2005 05:24, Bob Rea wrote:
...
A question about this. I was recently given a cd player that plays mp3 but not ogg. But mopst of the stuff on this box is ogg. What's the best way to convert it to mp3 before I put it on a cd?
Be prepared to be disappointed by the audio quality of the result of recoding from one lossy format (Ogg) to another (MP3). See the thread "How to resample MP3?" from the 16th of this month for more information.
-- Bob Rea
Randall Schulz
The Saturday 2005-04-23 at 14:18 -0700, Curtis Rey wrote:
eddieleprince wrote:
I have ripped most of my CD's to mp3. I got a rude awakening when I tried to play some this morning. The only way I can play them is through
The reason we have to put up with this "mp3/dvd disabled" crap is due to yours and my friends at the RIAA/MPAA. The European and Asian version of Linux distros (of which SuSE used to be - until Novell bought it) didn't have to worry as much.
Do I understand correctly that it is not legal in the US for SuSE users to listen to mp3, but it is for european users? Do you have more info on this (a link for further reading, perhaps)? I think SuSE should have told us Europeans buyers why mp3 did not work any longer, and how we could solve it. A product that sells worldwide should give this kind of info in an easy to find place (like the printed book). Multimedia is announced in the box. -- Cheers, Carlos Robinson
On Monday 02 May 2005 12:25, Carlos E. R. wrote:
Do I understand correctly that it is not legal in the US for SuSE users to listen to mp3, but it is for european users?
Do you have more info on this (a link for further reading, perhaps)? I think SuSE should have told us Europeans buyers why mp3 did not work any longer, and how we could solve it. A product that sells worldwide should give this kind of info in an easy to find place (like the printed book). Multimedia is announced in the box.
It's because the process of encoding and decoding mp3's are covered by software patents. In the US these are enforcable, whilst they are not (theoretically) in the EU. It could well be mentioned on the Novell/SuSE website, but since the buyout Novell have turned that into an obtuse exercise into frustration. A few of the reviews have highlighted this issue and the solution. Of course there is nothing to stop a US citizen downloading the additional packages, but they take on the legal responsibility themselves. -- Steve Boddy
On Mon, May 02, 2005 at 02:20:57PM +0100, Stephen Boddy wrote:
On Monday 02 May 2005 12:25, Carlos E. R. wrote:
Do I understand correctly that it is not legal in the US for SuSE users to listen to mp3, but it is for european users?
Do you have more info on this (a link for further reading, perhaps)? I think SuSE should have told us Europeans buyers why mp3 did not work any longer, and how we could solve it. A product that sells worldwide should give this kind of info in an easy to find place (like the printed book). Multimedia is announced in the box.
It's because the process of encoding and decoding mp3's are covered by software patents. In the US these are enforcable, whilst they are not (theoretically) in the EU.
This is correct. People use MP3s all the time and most probably don't realise how strict the thing is. It's not free softyware, and in fact, you're not even allowed to use it unless it's for research purposes only. I research my CD collection ;) Now, as it has been said SUSE 9.3 has a fix to allow MP3 playback and I think they should at least be given some credit for this as RedHat has had no MP3 support for a long time, and they don't give you an update which allows you to use MP3s again, you have to install everything by hand in redhat and generally take a lot of time. MP3 is very strict and Novell is just trying to not be lawyer protected over this. Or at least that is my guess. You have to remember, Novell is a big company with money, on the other hand, freely downloaded Linux distros, have no worries, they aren't companys and don't have to obide by the same rules so to speak. Now me, I don't have a problem, SUSE has a fix to use the MP3s again, and either way, I have my CDs, (15 GBs worth in MP3 format) that I re-did in OGG so that I could listen on any platform. I'm glad SUSE fixed this though because I've always loved the fact that whenh a RedHat user tries SUSE for the first time they always get back to me like "DUDE YOU CAN PLAY MP3S WITHOUT INSTALLING SOMETHING@!" That is great. The two OSs for Linux I use the most are SUSE and Slackware (Pat is a good guy and a buddy of mine and I think he does do good work, and h ell, SUSE sold Slackware for a while.) I do have to use XP because of the free printer my laptop came with not being good with Linux, and because well, Doom3, I can't get it working in Linux as of yet and I need at least one partition XP for college.
It could well be mentioned on the Novell/SuSE website, but since the buyout Novell have turned that into an obtuse exercise into frustration. A few of the reviews have highlighted this issue and the solution. Of course there is nothing to stop a US citizen downloading the additional packages, but they take on the legal responsibility themselves.
Yea it's funny you could have to go to court for making MP3s lol. It's stupid, the guy who created MP3 should release it free. If I had a lot of money, or my own company with lots of cash, I'd buy him out and buy the rights to it, and release it free. Then I'd buy out SCO, and all the rights to Unix they actually own, and then I'd buy whatever rights to Unix Novell still owns, and then I'd buy whatever the open group has on Unix, and I would own Unix and everything about Unix, and then, I'd give it to Novell, IBM, and of course me, and after a year, (After Novell, IBM and SUSE have enough of a work up on it) I'd release it GPL. Ahhh dreaming. I've always wanted my own version of Unix. And the people who used Unix and used it from SCO, which I'd bought the rights of, I'd tell them they all had to switch to a SUSE and Netware solution because Unix would no longer be supported. Buahahaha. I'd make my own version of Unix, then give it away. Novell would be first because I love them, and thye could maybe fix it up, they owned it after AT&T so they know how to work with it, and then of course IBM, so no more lawsuit from the idiots at SCO. I'd give Novell and IBM a head start though on working with Unix, and after a while I'd give it to Berkeley where it belongs and then the rest of the world. That should screw with stuff and start a revolution. ;) -Allen.
Steve Boddy
-- Check the headers for your unsubscription address For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the archives at http://lists.suse.com Please read the FAQs: suse-linux-e-faq@suse.com
On Monday 02 May 2005 19:39, Allen wrote:
You have to remember, Novell is a big company with money, on the other hand, freely downloaded Linux distros, have no worries, they aren't companys and don't have to obide by the same rules so to speak.
I think you'll find that this is wrong. The only reasons they don't go after free distros are 1) even by ruining the defendant, they wouldn't even recover lawyer costs, and 2) the bad press would be very very bad. Strange actually, how this is one of the few areas where bad publicity _is_ bad publicity. ("There's no such thing as bad publicity") -- Steve Boddy
On Mon, 2 May 2005, Allen wrote:
On Mon, May 02, 2005 at 02:20:57PM +0100, Stephen Boddy wrote:
On Monday 02 May 2005 12:25, Carlos E. R. wrote:
Do I understand correctly that it is not legal in the US for SuSE users to listen to mp3, but it is for european users?
Do you have more info on this (a link for further reading, perhaps)? I think SuSE should have told us Europeans buyers why mp3 did not work any longer, and how we could solve it. A product that sells worldwide should give this kind of info in an easy to find place (like the printed book). Multimedia is announced in the box.
It's because the process of encoding and decoding mp3's are covered by software patents. In the US these are enforcable, whilst they are not (theoretically) in the EU.
This is correct. People use MP3s all the time and most probably don't realise how strict the thing is. It's not free softyware, and in fact, you're not even allowed to use it unless it's for research purposes only.
I research my CD collection ;)
Now, as it has been said SUSE 9.3 has a fix to allow MP3 playback and I think they should at least be given some credit for this as RedHat has had no MP3 support for a long time, and they don't give you an update which allows you to use MP3s again, you have to install everything by hand in redhat and generally take a lot of time.
What is the problem with playing MP3 media on SuSE 9.3? I installed SuSE 9.3 last week and have not had any problems playing any media files that use the MP3 format. Merton Campbell Crockett -- BEGIN: vcard VERSION: 3.0 FN: Merton Campbell Crockett ORG: General Dynamics Advanced Information Systems; Intelligence and Exploitation Systems N: Crockett;Merton;Campbell EMAIL;TYPE=internet: mcc@CATO.GD-AIS.COM TEL;TYPE=work,voice,msg,pref: +1(805)497-5045 TEL;TYPE=work,fax: +1(805)497-5050 TEL;TYPE=cell,voice,msg: +1(805)377-6762 END: vcard
What is the problem with playing MP3 media on SuSE 9.3?
I installed SuSE 9.3 last week and have not had any problems playing any media files that use the MP3 format.
No problems here either, but I haven't been able to play Windows Media, neither audio nor video yet. By the way, I run x86_64... Anders.
The Monday 2005-05-02 at 14:20 +0100, Stephen Boddy wrote:
On Monday 02 May 2005 12:25, Carlos E. R. wrote:
Do I understand correctly that it is not legal in the US for SuSE users to listen to mp3, but it is for european users?
Do you have more info on this (a link for further reading, perhaps)? I think SuSE should have told us Europeans buyers why mp3 did not work any longer, and how we could solve it. A product that sells worldwide should give this kind of info in an easy to find place (like the printed book). Multimedia is announced in the box.
It's because the process of encoding and decoding mp3's are covered by software patents. In the US these are enforcable, whilst they are not (theoretically) in the EU.
Not being a lawyer, nor versed in "foreign law" I'm thoroughly confused by all this O:-) - but as previous SuSE versions supported listening to mp3 files, I thought the patent applied to creating such files, nor listening to them. I don't remember having to pay patent fees to build my own radio years ago. Maybe listening to music I paid for is different. I must be getting dumb.
It could well be mentioned on the Novell/SuSE website, but since the buyout Novell have turned that into an obtuse exercise into frustration.
I should be printed in paper, in the outside of the box, actually.
A few of the reviews have highlighted this issue and the solution. Of course there is nothing to stop a US citizen downloading the additional packages, but they take on the legal responsibility themselves.
As I said, not being a lawyer, I don't know unless told in plain words, by them (SuSE); and the comments on the "/Multimedia-Option-Pack-1" say nothing of the sort before downloading. See: Shortdescription.german: Multimedia Option Pack 1 Shortdescription.english: Multimedia Option Pack 1 Longdescription.english: Multimedia Option Pack 1 Nothing more... it does not say anything about "maybe being illegal in some countries". And, actually, those words should be in Spanish to be legally binding for me :-p -- Cheers, Carlos Robinson
On 5/3/05, Carlos E. R.
The Monday 2005-05-02 at 14:20 +0100, Stephen Boddy wrote:
On Monday 02 May 2005 12:25, Carlos E. R. wrote:
Do I understand correctly that it is not legal in the US for SuSE users to listen to mp3, but it is for european users?
Do you have more info on this (a link for further reading, perhaps)? I think SuSE should have told us Europeans buyers why mp3 did not work any longer, and how we could solve it. A product that sells worldwide should give this kind of info in an easy to find place (like the printed book). Multimedia is announced in the box.
It's because the process of encoding and decoding mp3's are covered by software patents. In the US these are enforcable, whilst they are not (theoretically) in the EU.
Not being a lawyer, nor versed in "foreign law" I'm thoroughly confused by all this O:-) - but as previous SuSE versions supported listening to mp3 files, I thought the patent applied to creating such files, nor listening to them.
I don't remember having to pay patent fees to build my own radio years ago. Maybe listening to music I paid for is different. I must be getting dumb.
It could well be mentioned on the Novell/SuSE website, but since the buyout Novell have turned that into an obtuse exercise into frustration.
I should be printed in paper, in the outside of the box, actually.
A few of the reviews have highlighted this issue and the solution. Of course there is nothing to stop a US citizen downloading the additional packages, but they take on the legal responsibility themselves.
As I said, not being a lawyer, I don't know unless told in plain words, by them (SuSE); and the comments on the "/Multimedia-Option-Pack-1" say nothing of the sort before downloading. See:
Shortdescription.german: Multimedia Option Pack 1 Shortdescription.english: Multimedia Option Pack 1
Longdescription.english: Multimedia Option Pack 1
Nothing more... it does not say anything about "maybe being illegal in some countries".
And, actually, those words should be in Spanish to be legally binding for me :-p
-- Cheers, Carlos Robinson
-- Check the headers for your unsubscription address For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the archives at http://lists.suse.com Please read the FAQs: suse-linux-e-faq@suse.com
Please correct me if I'm wrong but it has been my understanding that any breakage regarding MP3 playback is fixed under YOU. I just wish they could fix DVD playback that way as I have never got it to work on any of my SuSE distro's (9.1+ 9.2). This despite downloading the required lib files. I suspect it was not using the newly downloaded version of Xine but that is another post :-) -- Take care. Kevan Farmer 34 Hill Street Cheslyn Hay Staffordshire WS6 7HR
The Tuesday 2005-05-03 at 10:30 +0100, Kevanf1 wrote:
Shortdescription.german: Multimedia Option Pack 1 Shortdescription.english: Multimedia Option Pack 1
[...]
Please correct me if I'm wrong but it has been my understanding that any breakage regarding MP3 playback is fixed under YOU.
See above. -- Cheers, Carlos Robinson
On 5/3/05, Carlos E. R.
The Tuesday 2005-05-03 at 10:30 +0100, Kevanf1 wrote:
Shortdescription.german: Multimedia Option Pack 1 Shortdescription.english: Multimedia Option Pack 1
[...]
Please correct me if I'm wrong but it has been my understanding that any breakage regarding MP3 playback is fixed under YOU.
See above.
-- Cheers, Carlos Robinson
-- Check the headers for your unsubscription address For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the archives at http://lists.suse.com Please read the FAQs: suse-linux-e-faq@suse.com
:-) -- Take care. Kevan Farmer 34 Hill Street Cheslyn Hay Staffordshire WS6 7HR
On Wed, 2005-05-04 at 07:19, James Knott wrote:
Kevanf1 wrote:
Please correct me if I'm wrong but it has been my understanding that any breakage regarding MP3 playback is fixed under YOU.
YOU break it, it's yours. ;-)
<thwap> YOU break it, you bought it. :)
On 4/22/05, eddieleprince
I have ripped most of my CD's to mp3. I got a rude awakening when I tried to play some this morning. The only way I can play them is through realplayer!!! How sad! I usually play music in the background while at work. To do that now would be so tedious. Does anyone know of a quick fix or should I be looking for a different distro.?
Pardon this post that does not address your question but just asks another question - I'm just curious: why is playing your mp3's with realplayer "so tedious"? And why can you only use realplayer ... is it some DRM thing, or is it because 9.3 only ships with RP? I was planning to go to 9.3 soon, it would be nice to know ahead of time. I understand wanting to have choices ... but RP just does not seem that tedious to me. Peter
participants (19)
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Allen
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Anders Johansson
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Anders Norrbring
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Bob Rea
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Carlos E. R.
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Curtis Rey
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eddieleprince
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Gerhard den Hollander
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Hans Witvliet
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James Knott
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Joe Morris (NTM)
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Ken Schneider
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Kevanf1
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Merton Campbell Crockett
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Mike McMullin
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Peter Van Lone
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Randall R Schulz
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Silviu Marin-Caea
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Stephen Boddy