-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 1/24/2014 1:25 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:

On 2014-01-24 21:57, John Andersen wrote:

...

On 1/24/2014 12:46 PM, Duaine Hechler wrote:

...

Pretty standard with Gmail. They do this as a Service. (feature, intentional).

Correct.

...

Do this once, and all subsequent posts to the list will appear in the proper place in your mailbox, whether you use the web page or thunderbird or what ever.

This is a hack, and it is not correct, either.

What you get is a copy of sent mail, copied into another folder. You do not see your own email as sent by the mail list server. You do not have a proof that your email even arrived at the list server, no proof that it was accepted and sent to list subscriber.

I assure you it is correct. I have a copy in sent mail if I need to have proof. I can look in the archives if I have to have proof. And as soon as it arrives quoted, like you just did, I have all the proof I ever need. (In reading this list for at least 8 years I have never once been asked for proof. What a silly concept this is Carlos, what went up your butt today that you raise the issue of Proof?). It works. Its been working since 8 or 10 years, not only on this list, but every mailing list I'm subscribed to. - -- _____________________________________ - ---This space for rent--- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (MingW32) iEYEARECAAYFAlLi26cACgkQv7M3G5+2DLKiMwCfRyCU2nPkb5jJcPKKe6eqPOoY YXoAoJMqGqUwUP5etCUCTCKD8YDK8vCV =io2u -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 1/24/2014 1:43 PM, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

No, Carlos is most definitely correct!

When you post to the list using gmail/google smtp, you will not see the return/list post from openSUSE. What you see is a cludge, your original outgoing mail via google's smtp. It is a google ?feature? which prevents duplicate mail in their system.

Carlos is uselessly splitting hairs. What you see was returned to your folder by Google, (not by your machine), and this serves the purpose of getting your own mail to appear in the proper sequence in your inbox (or which ever folder you use to read the list). That was all that was asked. That is all it does. That you didn't get the full round trip image doesn't matter for this purpose. Your mailbox and thread structure will be intact and proper threading will appear in Thunderbird, Kmail, Pine, and any other email client you care to use. Doesn't matter if its a hack. It works for the purpose people were looking for, namely to see their own posts in the threading, just as they would appear if sent by your method. -- _____________________________________ ---This space for rent--- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

* Patrick Shanahan [01-24-14 17:10]:

* John Andersen [01-24-14 16:54]:

...

On 1/24/2014 1:43 PM, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

...

No, Carlos is most definitely correct!

When you post to the list using gmail/google smtp, you will not see the return/list post from openSUSE. What you see is a cludge, your original outgoing mail via google's smtp. It is a google ?feature? which prevents duplicate mail in their system.

Carlos is uselessly splitting hairs.

What you see was returned to your folder by Google, (not by your machine), and this serves the purpose of getting your own mail to appear in the proper sequence in your inbox (or which ever folder you use to read the list).

That was all that was asked. That is all it does. That you didn't get the full round trip image doesn't matter for this purpose. Your mailbox and thread structure will be intact and proper threading will appear in Thunderbird, Kmail, Pine, and any other email client you care to use.

Doesn't matter if its a hack. It works for the purpose people were looking for, namely to see their own posts in the threading, just as they would appear if sent by your method.

And doesn't alter Carlos's correct explanation or the facts.

And I do not know but will investigate whether it correctly threads in my mail system which is local, text and mbox.

doesn't work for me, works for imap not for pop and not for mbox. So it is indeed a cludge or partial solution. -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA @ptilopteri http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member facebook/ptilopteri http://wahoo.no-ip.org Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://linuxcounter.net -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

* John Andersen [01-24-14 17:26]:

On 1/24/2014 2:18 PM, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

...

...

And I do not know but will investigate whether it correctly threads in my

...

mail system which is local, text and mbox. doesn't work for me, works for imap not for pop and not for mbox.

Since its done Server Side (at google) it is expected to be done by imap, and specifically placed into a folder (label) on google. I don't see how you can test this using your own mail system.

Why would one test it for a system he/she does not use? It does not work for me! And for that matter, does not work for a lot of other people. -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA @ptilopteri http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member facebook/ptilopteri http://wahoo.no-ip.org Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://linuxcounter.net -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

* John Andersen [01-24-14 17:47]:

On 1/24/2014 2:43 PM, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

...

* John Andersen [01-24-14 17:26]:

...

On 1/24/2014 2:18 PM, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

...

...

And I do not know but will investigate whether it correctly threads in my

...

mail system which is local, text and mbox. doesn't work for me, works for imap not for pop and not for mbox.

Since its done Server Side (at google) it is expected to be done by imap, and specifically placed into a folder (label) on google. I don't see how you can test this using your own mail system.

Why would one test it for a system he/she does not use? It does not work for me! And for that matter, does not work for a lot of other people.

Because the both the question and answer applied only to Gmail users. If you are not that, then how could you even test?

But I *am* a gmail user, just not their smtp. A definition is failing, because I *only* use them to *receive* mail dos not make me a non-user. On occasion I even read mail there, but seldom and mostly for "non-text". -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA @ptilopteri http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member facebook/ptilopteri http://wahoo.no-ip.org Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://linuxcounter.net -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 2014-01-24 23:09, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

* John Andersen <> [01-24-14 16:54]:

...

On 1/24/2014 1:43 PM, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

...

No, Carlos is most definitely correct!

...

Doesn't matter if its a hack. It works for the purpose people were looking for, namely to see their own posts in the threading, just as they would appear if sent by your method.

And doesn't alter Carlos's correct explanation or the facts.

Thanks. What I'm trying to say is that it is just your copy of Sent folder, it is not the email sent by the list. That you see that email in any folder the filter puts it in, does not mean that it was actually posted on the list. Duaine wants to know if the email got posted on to the list. Even after doing that filtering, Duaine would still not know. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 12.3 x86_64 "Dartmouth" at Telcontar)

On 1/24/2014 2:41 PM, Duaine Hechler wrote:

On 01/24/2014 04:25 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

On 2014-01-24 23:09, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

...

* John Andersen <> [01-24-14 16:54]:

...

On 1/24/2014 1:43 PM, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

...

No, Carlos is most definitely correct! Doesn't matter if its a hack. It works for the purpose people were looking for, namely to see their own posts in the threading, just as they would appear if sent by your method. And doesn't alter Carlos's correct explanation or the facts. Thanks.

What I'm trying to say is that it is just your copy of Sent folder, it is not the email sent by the list. That you see that email in any folder the filter puts it in, does not mean that it was actually posted on the list.

Duaine wants to know if the email got posted on to the list. Even after doing that filtering, Duaine would still not know.

They are showing up in gmail's Inbox but they are not downloading - everything else is - no filters in place !

What Are you accessing Gmail with (what client) Are you Pop (if so, why on earth would you) or imap Are you simply filtering to inbox, or a sub-folder (which google calls a label) -- _____________________________________ ---This space for rent--- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 1/24/2014 2:48 PM, Duaine Hechler wrote:

On 01/24/2014 04:44 PM, John Andersen wrote:

...

On 1/24/2014 2:41 PM, Duaine Hechler wrote:

...

On 01/24/2014 04:25 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

On 2014-01-24 23:09, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

...

* John Andersen <> [01-24-14 16:54]:

...

On 1/24/2014 1:43 PM, Patrick Shanahan wrote: > No, Carlos is most definitely correct! Doesn't matter if its a hack. It works for the purpose people were looking for, namely to see their own posts in the threading, just as they would appear if sent by your method. And doesn't alter Carlos's correct explanation or the facts. Thanks.

What I'm trying to say is that it is just your copy of Sent folder, it is not the email sent by the list. That you see that email in any folder the filter puts it in, does not mean that it was actually posted on the list.

Duaine wants to know if the email got posted on to the list. Even after doing that filtering, Duaine would still not know.

They are showing up in gmail's Inbox but they are not downloading - everything else is - no filters in place !

What Are you accessing Gmail with (what client) Are you Pop (if so, why on earth would you) or imap Are you simply filtering to inbox, or a sub-folder (which google calls a label)

I'm using Thunderbird - Don't need imap - local filtering on TB.

It is beginning to look like like I am getting block from the opensuse messages - sent to me gets here.

Local filtering on Thunderbird isn't going to do the same thing. The method I recommended might work on pop, but it is known to work on Imap. The best way to test is to shut off pop support on Gmail web page and enable only imap (and ssl). Using Thunderbird does not preclude imap. Just the wizard in Tbird knows how to use Gmail imap perfectly. Th I can only think of one reason for using pop on Gmail, (paranoia) but if you were paranoid you wouldn't be using gmail. -- _____________________________________ ---This space for rent--- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 2014-01-24 23:55, Duaine Hechler wrote:

On 01/24/2014 04:44 PM, John Andersen wrote:

...

On 1/24/2014 2:41 PM, Duaine Hechler wrote:

...

...

They are showing up in gmail's Inbox but they are not downloading - everything else is - no filters in place !

Because the client considers them already downloaded.

...

What Are you accessing Gmail with (what client) Are you Pop (if so, why on earth would you) or imap Are you simply filtering to inbox, or a sub-folder (which google calls a label)

The "OT" list emails are not coming through either !

When you write an email in Thunderbird (for example), a copy of that is placed on the "Sent" folder, which can be local or remote. If it is local, you will see another copy on the Gmail server, which typically can be downloaded from the Inbox. Or it can be stored remotely on the Gmail "Sent" folder (seen from imap). You can use filters to place it somewhere else - but the post remains the same, a "local" copy of sent email. Gmail then tries to send that email to opensuse. If opensuse accepts it, it will send a copy to all subscribers. Gmail will get yours and immediately delete it. On the other hand, if opensuse does not accept that email, or is down, it will of course not be sent to anybody. In any case, you will never know if your post was accepted or not, till you get replies (if there are any). You can of course, see the Sent email copy, sorted inside the opensuse mail list folder. It helps you, seeing the post at the start of the thread. On the other hand, people using a standard ISP mail, will see both emails, the Sent copy, and the email sent by the list server. They are very similar, but not totally the same, like the unsubscribe lines, and the "received" headers. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 12.3 x86_64 "Dartmouth" at Telcontar)

On 1/24/2014 2:11 PM, Duaine Hechler wrote:

On 01/24/2014 03:53 PM, John Andersen wrote:

...

On 1/24/2014 1:43 PM, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

...

No, Carlos is most definitely correct!

When you post to the list using gmail/google smtp, you will not see the return/list post from openSUSE. What you see is a cludge, your original outgoing mail via google's smtp. It is a google ?feature? which prevents duplicate mail in their system. Carlos is uselessly splitting hairs.

What you see was returned to your folder by Google, (not by your machine), and this serves the purpose of getting your own mail to appear in the proper sequence in your inbox (or which ever folder you use to read the list).

That was all that was asked. That is all it does. That you didn't get the full round trip image doesn't matter for this purpose. Your mailbox and thread structure will be intact and proper threading will appear in Thunderbird, Kmail, Pine, and any other email client you care to use.

Doesn't matter if its a hack. It works for the purpose people were looking for, namely to see their own posts in the threading, just as they would appear if sent by your method.

Am I somehow on "digest" mode ?

Not from our end you aren't, but you would have to check your subscription at open suse. BTW: This sent direct and to the list intentionally. -- _____________________________________ ---This space for rent--- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 2014-01-25 07:27, Andrey Borzenkov wrote:

This behavior makes it impossible to "reply to list" (as requested by several overly sensitive subscribers here) because there is no list to reply to.

Oh, absolutely. Another issue with Gmail, with the same cause, is that when people reply to "All", meaning a direct copy to the poster, and another to the mail list, and that persons uses Gmail, he will only receive the direct post because it arrives first (fewer hops). Thus he may think that he got a private reply, and thus reply also privately. If he is using Thunderbird, for instance, the "reply to list" button will not work. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 12.3 x86_64 "Dartmouth" at Telcontar)

* John Andersen [01-25-14 14:15]:

On 1/25/2014 5:24 AM, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

Another issue with Gmail, with the same cause, is that when people reply to "All", meaning a direct copy to the poster, and another to the mail list, and that persons uses Gmail, he will only receive the direct post because it arrives first (fewer hops). Thus he may think that he got a private reply, and thus reply also privately. If he is using Thunderbird, for instance, the "reply to list" button will not work.

Reply to all, and the list being configured to reply to sender rather than the list is the root cause of this problem.

No, it is the way that *should* be expected.

Just because Thunderbird built in a reply to list button doesn't absolve OpenSuse of the bulk of the blame in this regard.

Tb is not alone with this feature. And the "blame" is not with openSUSE which you continue to mis-spell, but with users ignorant of their environment.

Reply to list is the expected behavior on every other list in the world, yet mostly out of stubbornness at this point, OS clings to its nonstandard configuration, and the usual trolls come out in droves and flame anyone who dares suggest its just wrong headed.

Not so, but you persist.

But hey, nice try laying that baby at Google's doorstep.

It is what it is. -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA @ptilopteri http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member facebook/ptilopteri http://wahoo.no-ip.org Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://linuxcounter.net -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

* John Andersen [01-25-14 14:29]:

On 1/25/2014 11:23 AM, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

...

the usual trolls come out in droves

Thanks for proving my point. I knew I could count on you.

I don't know why you attrib this quote to me as I did not post it. Perhaps you need to re-examine your own house! Still counting? I prefer Dos Equis. -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA @ptilopteri http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member facebook/ptilopteri http://wahoo.no-ip.org Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://linuxcounter.net -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 2014-01-25 14:23 (GMT-0500) Patrick Shanahan composed:

* John Andersen [01-25-14 14:15]:

...

Reply to all, and the list being configured to reply to sender rather than the list is the root cause of this problem.

No, it is the way that *should* be expected.

Notwithstanding head buried in sand RFCs, openSUSE lists are public discussion lists that authors direct compositions to so that the listserv can send them to subscribers. The listserv is the sender WRT to those who are subscribed, not the message authors. Messages are sent in public, and because they are sent in public, it is only natural for their responses to be public as well. Yet, the listserv thwarts such behavior being automatic in favor of assuming replies should be sent privately to the author instead of the sender.

...

Reply to list is the expected behavior on every other list in the world, yet mostly out of stubbornness at this point, OS clings to its nonstandard configuration, and the usual trolls come out in droves and flame anyone who dares suggest its just wrong headed.

Not so, but you persist.

You are correct only insofar as "every other" is an overreach. Yet, the vast majority do make it easy for the vast majority of mailing list subscribers by having their reply buttons direct the reply to go back to the sender, to wit, the listserv. Among those directing replies back to the listserv from whence came, making reply-to-list easy as possible regardless of knowledge level of respondent: @vger.kernel.org @2rosenthals.com @fedoraproject.org @freedesktop.org @gnu.org @googlegroups.com (thousands of lists) @lists.gentoo.org @lists.pearsoncomputing.net @lists.samba.org @lists.sourceforge.net @lists.ubuntu.com @lists.wdvl.com @LISTSERV.ICORS.ORG @mail.kde.org @ml.mageia.org @ml.openmandriva.org @netlabs.org @os2voice.org @rx7-world.net @webstandardsgroup.org @yahoogroups.com (over half of the 70+ lists I subscribe to; thousands of lists; combined with googlegroups.com likely comprising more lists than all others combined) -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 1/25/2014 12:38 PM, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

...

...

No, it is the way that *should* be expected.

Notwithstanding head buried in sand RFCs, openSUSE lists are public discussion lists that authors direct compositions to so that the listserv can send them to subscribers. The listserv is the sender WRT to those who are subscribed, not the message authors. Messages are sent in public, and because they are sent in public, it is only natural for their responses to be public as well. Yet, the listserv thwarts such behavior being automatic in favor of assuming replies should be sent privately to the author instead of the sender.

...

...

...

>Reply to list is the expected behavior on every other list in the world, >yet mostly out of stubbornness at this point, OS clings to its >nonstandard configuration, and the usual trolls come out in droves and >flame anyone who dares suggest its just wrong headed. I have friends I visit and remove my shoes before entering their house/home. The openSUSE lists expect/require certain behavour and I follow that to the best of my ability/characture. When in Rome....

Nobody is realistically expecting this list to change. Its well past that point in time where the list manager is willing to admit that is has been wrong for dozens of years and isn't getting any more correct as time goes on. It has entered the realm of political or religious dogma at this point. No reasoned arguments need apply. We all get that. The point is that you, (specifically you Patrick) can't have it both ways. You can't say :

No, it is the way that *should* be expected.

and then, when proven wrong revert to:

When in Rome....

-- _____________________________________ ---This space for rent--- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Le 25/01/2014 21:59, Carlos E. R. a écrit :

The list is correct, as many other list that are configured the same way.

it is correct only because we choosed to use this setting, after numerous discussions that do not need to be done agin too often jdd -- http://www.dodin.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 2014-01-25 23:41 (GMT+0100) jdd composed:

Carlos composed:

...

The list is correct, as many other list that are configured the same way.

Understanding that though "many", the many are a significant minority.

it is correct only because we choosed to use this setting, after numerous discussions that do not need to be done agin too often

The "we" in that statement was comprised of a sample. A vote was taken. A small fraction of those subscribed who could have voted actually participated by voting. Presumably the sample was as such usually are, heavily populated by regular activist participants, participants who are more likely aware of the state and familiar with the workaround for the reply diversion, and least likely to benefit from an alternative list reply policy. Also they are presumably among those most conscious of how to work around the alternative policy by copying and pasting the author's address into the to field of their replies in those rare cases when a private reply is desired instead of the factually customary reply to list. Those poorly represented include those who participate little except when they have a problem and come here for help, particularly the newest least comfortable subscribers. They are those who are most likely surprised by the customary behavior, and are most likely unfamiliar with both the possible workarounds, and the "local custom" that is a minority position among similar but unrelated forums. IOW, the current policy is an elitist policy, not a practical one benefiting those who could best benefit from the alternative. -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 01/25/2014 05:22 PM, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

But the discourteous discussion, nay argument, will proceed ad infinitum

This discussion has actually been quite civil. [ at least up to this point ] The only question I would pose is, "If the desired result is reply to list why are the list settings set to reply to sender?" -- A cat is a puzzle with no solution. Cats are tiny little women in fur coats. When you get all full of yourself try giving orders to a cat. _ _... ..._ _ _._ ._ ..... ._.. ... .._ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

* John Andersen [01-25-14 15:50]:

On 1/25/2014 12:38 PM, Patrick Shanahan wrote: [...] Nobody is realistically expecting this list to change.

Its well past that point in time where the list manager is willing to admit that is has been wrong for dozens of years and isn't getting any more correct as time goes on. It has entered the realm of political or religious dogma at this point. No reasoned arguments need apply. We all get that.

The point is that you, (specifically you Patrick) can't have it both ways.

You can't say :

...

No, it is the way that *should* be expected.

and then, when proven wrong revert to:

...

When in Rome....

But I can. I can expect it to be the way I believe it should be and still follow the "local customs". As I see it, "local customs" *always* trump the "way it should be". I don't expect you to *believe* what I believe but also do not hold you against it and in *your* house will attempt to follow your expectations as I would expect of you in my house. How are the mailing lists any different? Different localities have different rules/laws/customs/... Do no disrespect those peoples by ignoring their .... Apply the same to the mailing lists and render this discussion mute. civility/netiquette/respect/politeness/cooperation/..... When in .... ps: even the "list manager" has expectations and .... and is not wrong in having them. -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA @ptilopteri http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member facebook/ptilopteri http://wahoo.no-ip.org Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://linuxcounter.net -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 2014-01-25 20:24 (GMT-0500) Ken Schneider - openSUSE composed:

It is not the list server that sent the message, it is the author.

The author authored it. The author addressed one message to the list, not to me. The listserv addressed copies of the one message it received to me and to many others, and the listserv sent those copies, not the author.

The list server only facilitates the mass delivery of the message.

It's far more. Listservs are an indispensable prerequisite to authored messages directed to those listservs showing up in mailing list subscribers' mailboxes. Messages sent to mailing lists not subscribed to do not show up in mailboxes of non-subscribers. -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org