--- Michael Hasenstein wrote:

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Ron Heron wrote:

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Hello, I have been using SuSE since 6.0. I upgraded to 6.2, and then 6.4. It seems to me, though, that getting the system usable, and maintaining current software is becoming more and more difficult with SuSE. Maybe it is just me, but I have noticed

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I cannot agree.

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numerous postings where people have MAJOR problems using SuSE upgrades and patches, or basic Linux

This is a ridiculous observation. Who else would post anything here?! This mailing list is for problems and their solutions. ROFLMAO! Agreed.

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upgrades on a SuSE-installed system. Here are my examples:

1) Upgraded to Kernel 2.2.16, and the system was unusable. Why can't I upgrade to a new kernel Dunno, ignorance, stupidity, indolance, or incompatability (try using win2k)... ];) a) That is hardly a SuSE problem if you choose to upgrade one of hte major components without knowing what you're doing.

b) Correct, the stock 2.2.16 is next to unusable. This is why the SuSE 2.2.16 is a 2.2.16 + several MB of patches, for both stability and features. And every OTHER linux distro as well. BTW, patches for linux are FAR smaller and MUCH far ranging than "the other OS from Redmond, Washington"...

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downloaded from the internet? Every time (5 times now) I tried to put in a new kernel on a SuSE distro, it failed miserably. But, I was able to upgrade other Linux systems at work (RH and Debian) I had to fall back to the SuSE kernel. Is not linux linux? Guess you didn't have your assitants there at home to answer your questions... Is not Windows NT Windows NT? Errrr, terminal server edition comes to mind... Various and sundry other editions with small variences that make the ignorant's life a living hell come to mind. The question still goes back to ignorance... It is, and I never had problems. Of course, one has to know what one is doing. Heh. Agreed.

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2) Installed "Almost Everything" and Almost nothing works! Fresh, out of the box, ran an Almost Everything install on my test box, just for fun. Well, I was utterly amazed at how many things just do not work!. I try to open up Kgrabber, and it tells me I don't have this installed, or that installed, so it cannot function, and the program is just taking up space. Why would SuSE package and install software that can't work? Errrr, define "nothing"? OTHER than your IQ... ??? Thanks for the detailed bug report.

So, are you saying you want a bug report for every package that doesn't work right, or has unresolved dependencies _out_of_the_box_? That would be more than a few, imho. People are somewhat used to stuff working when it comes from SuSE, and I think the beef here is that some stuff doesn't just flat doesn't work out of the box, or downloaded, from the SuSE mirrors. I had one box that the kernel upgrade (using the binary rpms, thank you very much) was a complete nightmare. Another one, piece of cake. Using the same files downloaded from a SuSE mirror, shared over the lan via nfs. Errrr, perhaps you forgot, running linux IS essentially beta testing... Oh, I know. Now you are going to complain that we don't give specific examples. But when I do, are you going shuffle me off w/ a 'why didn't you submit a bug report?'? Why? Because for one, these are pretty basic. If SuSE was going to do something about them, I think they would have done it before the software came out, as there is little chance they could have missed them (I could be wrong) Guess that means that SuSE has to re-author ALL software in the world. I think that project is going to start RIGHT after Microsoft starts writing bug-free software... a) kblade: Requires bladenc -- where is it? finding a source package on the bladenc homepage is a PITA, why bother even including the package in 6.4? I *DO* agree with that one, ended up using an alternative solution rather than wait for a working version... Not THAT big a deal for that low end server to me. b) opso: Upgrading to the kernel 2.2.16 breaks the oss package that comes w/ 6.4. So if you use opso, you now have no sound, but a nice new kernel. Use alsa 0.5.8 you say? It claims amixer needs reinstalled, but amixer isn't a separate package. amixer complains about needing libasound.so.1, when the system has libasound.so, and the normal link of libasound.so to libasound.so.1 doesn't work. Fun, fun, fun. Errrr, better talk to the alsa people about that. Then again, went

If you want more examples, I know I can dig them up, and others can to, if we have time. The point is, particularly w/ ones like these, updates from suse that break previously working packages, or depend on packages that suse doesn't even package, are below what we the consumers expect from SuSE. Get your shovel, make the dirt DETAILED, rather than "the F***ing

Monte

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3) Decided to upgrade to XFree86 4.0. I downloaded the software from SuSE, and followed SuSE instructions EXACTLY, and it absolutely would not work. After several hours, I ftp'd via command line to XFree86.org, downloaded the precompiled binaries, followed THEIR instructions, and it worked perfectly. The only exception was the gray screen instead of background, and missing xsession file. Still have the background problem, but the xsession problem was the fault of SuSE erasing the file during install.

Uh, huh.

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I'd really love to stand behind you when you do this... Me too!

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4) Did everyone see the post from the poor guy who upgraded apache, (again, a SuSE upgrade) and it now doesn't work? Didn't have a problem here myself with the same upgrade. Perhaps a bad install. Get a fair number of those with MS products at work (more windows machines than anything there), occasionally things go wrong on install and the installation isn't worth a campaign

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There's ALWAYS someone where everything go wrong, and (almost) always it's NOT our fault. Yes it is, ya didn't booby-trap the package to kill off idiots.

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What is going on here? I cannot believe that SuSE is releasing 7.0 in 10 days, and their 6.4 is such a heap. Or maybe that is the plan..... Guess this guy never used Microsoft products... All examples you described but one are YOUR problems, with stuff you downloaded. I've no idea what you do, but since I do this a lot and it always works immediately... (no comment) Errrr, point and match!

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Well, please, if anyone can shed some light on this stuff, I would appreciate it. I hope it is just me, cause then I can do something about it.

How about: If you want a stable system, don't mess around? And: have a second system on hand for playing and trying out new stuff. EXCELLENT advice. NEVER screw with a production machine, at work or at home. Judging by the original posting, I'd infer that LamersRus had another modem special... Personally, I keep using SuSE, even WITH the occasional misadventure with new hardware, etc because it works the first time "out of the box". Needs a bit of tweaking, such as TOO DAMNED many services running by default... It's easy to configure for "basic" setup, I'm too busy to screw around with editing all of the config files by hand, nice to have a tool to do it for me for BASIC setup. It has pysol for the wife to play solitare on the kids' win98 box via X session... ];) She *IS* in love with that particular game though,

Hmmm, either you have an incompatible system (quite possible, outta see the gyrations we've had with win2k) or possibly a bad load. As for out of the box "unusable", no problem here with 5 systems running 6.4, one a clean load, the rest "upgraded". Though one is still running an older version, just havn't gotten around to installing the upgrade yet on the stable, out of the way system... through that saga myself with sucess (updating alsa, that is. Who *REALLY* cares about the other...). PIA, but my sound that I don't use on that slug box (cheap0matic K6-2 500 machine as a "toybox" server, current primary mission is to run a half-life server for the kids). thing's broken, fix it!". Try mentioning EXACT errors, missing dependancies and files. Also, remember that using the latest and greates distro of linux (ANY distro) is STILL essentially beta testing. The only encouragement I can truely offer is that it IS *USUALLY* more stable than something from Microsoft. Still isn't ANY way near ready for "prime time" yet, but at least stable and dependable for those with the proper patience, discipline and sense of humor (the last is critical at times). OH! And you *NEED* to install the SuSE sticker on your computer for it all to work properly, or files and dependancies will go missing and your taxes will be audited... <jk> promise... the russian solitare game is challenging to her.

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-- Michael Hasenstein http://www.suse.de/~mha/ SuSE Linux AG, Nuernberg (Germany) SuSE Inc., Oakland, California (US)

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