On Sun, 08 Apr 2012 18:16:42 +0530, Anton Aylward wrote:

C said the following on 04/08/2012 08:38 AM:

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On Sun, Apr 8, 2012 at 14:24, James Knott wrote:

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One thing I've noticed is that KDE4 simply doesn't work as well as KDE3, even ignoring the differences in features. For example, often when I click on something to open it, I have to hunt to see where it is, rather than it opening on top of everything else. I also find that when something opens, it often does not have focus for the keyboard, so that if, for example, I press Alt-F2 to run something, I find that even though the box opens, I wind up typing into another app.

In this aspect alone, KDE4 has a long way to go to catch up to KDE3, even before considering the things that are no longer possible in KDE4.

Have you tweaked a setting somewhere? i haven't encountered this issue you present as an example of a problem with KDE4 at all.. and I just tested it following your example and it behaves as you are expecting it to not how you are describing it (ie I open an app using Alt+F2 and focus is immediately shifted to the new app once it's open).

I have to agree, I don't observe the problems James describes.

somewhere in KDE4's systemsettings there's different settings re. focus, if it follows the mouse or not, per example. don't really remember, haven't messed around with it in a long time. i experience these focus issues with some app.s, always the same ones. pressing <F4> in konqueror, per example, opens a konsole window konqueror's directory, but, at least for me, always behind the calling konqueror window. got used to pressing in this situation and don't hardly notice it anymore. never bothered to inquire or complain, because it really doesn't bother me. -- phani. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On Sun, 08 Apr 2012 19:33:07 +0530, James Knott wrote:

C wrote:

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On Sun, Apr 8, 2012 at 14:24, James Knott wrote:

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One thing I've noticed is that KDE4 simply doesn't work as well as KDE3, even ignoring the differences in features. For example, often when I click on something to open it, I have to hunt to see where it is, rather than it opening on top of everything else. I also find that when something opens, it often does not have focus for the keyboard, so that if, for example, I press Alt-F2 to run something, I find that even though the box opens, I wind up typing into another app.

In this aspect alone, KDE4 has a long way to go to catch up to KDE3, even before considering the things that are no longer possible in KDE4. Have you tweaked a setting somewhere? i haven't encountered this issue you present as an example of a problem with KDE4 at all.. and I just tested it following your example and it behaves as you are expecting it to not how you are describing it (ie I open an app using Alt+F2 and focus is immediately shifted to the new app once it's open).

C.

It's not consistent. That's why I said "often". There is a setting in Personal Settings for Window Behaviour. At someone's advice here, I changed it to "Focus follows mouse", but it didn't do much.

that was me, mentioning "focus follows mouse," but i neither use nor recommend it; i find it rather confusing. i expect the focus to remain ideally where i want or expect it, but if that's not the case for some reason, at least where it's at -- not follow the mouse all over the place. i often do things like hovering over taskbar icons or the clock, and having the focus following all that would drive me mad. i rather thought you might have enabled it & forgot about it, and therefore were experiencing these issues. -- phani. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2012-04-08 16:43, Anton Aylward wrote:

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icons or the clock, and having the focus following all that would drive me

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mad. I tried it once ... never again!

It is, or was, the default in one of the minor desktops. I forget which. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.4 x86_64 "Celadon" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAk+BpKEACgkQIvFNjefEBxoCdwCgjw9VeZmsUBoYVp8u+fwneQWl vPgAmwRMGe/0QtSgbJhYjzCkErKpj+92 =FONL -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On Mon, 9 Apr 2012 00:13:02 Anton Aylward wrote:

phanisvara das said the following on 04/08/2012 10:28 AM:

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On Sun, 08 Apr 2012 19:33:07 +0530, James Knott

wrote:

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It's not consistent. That's why I said "often". There is a setting in Personal Settings for Window Behaviour. At someone's advice here, I changed it to "Focus follows mouse", but it didn't do much.

that was me, mentioning "focus follows mouse," but i neither use nor recommend it; i find it rather confusing.

+1. "don't do that, then"

...

i expect the focus to remain ideally where i want or expect it, but if that's not the case for some reason, at least where it's at -- not follow the mouse all over the place. i often do things like hovering over taskbar icons or the clock, and having the focus following all that would drive me mad.

I tried it once ... never again!

To each his own. I have both focus follows mouse and autoraise turned on and have since early KDE days. In fact, I think I used to with OS/2 also. That is one thing that I *really* miss when I'm forced to use Windoze at work...I've become so used to it, it is second nature now to expect that when I point to something that it will "step forward and be ready for instructions". :-) -- ========================================================================== Rodney Baker VK5ZTV rodney.baker@iinet.net.au ========================================================================== -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Lew Wolfgang wrote:

Different strokes for different folks! I've been using focus follows mouse for many years (pre-Linux) and along with being able to disable "auto raise" is one of Linux/UNIX's selling points over MS Windows, IMHO.

Choice is the name of the game!

However, when I click on something, it's because I want to use it and it should have focus. As an example, yesterday I was using Wireshark. I clicked on the link about filters and didn't see the browser. I then had to check the open Firefox windows to find the one that had a new tab with the desired info. There is simply no excuse for that sort of behavior. I should not have to search for something I just opened. I don't recall ever seeing that behavior in KDE3 nor in Windows or OS/2. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

C wrote:

Just thinking on this... one behavior of KDE (was in KDE3 and is still there in KDE4) that I find useful is.. if you start an application, while it's starting, you can click back to another already open application and continue working while the other application starts up. Once it starts up, it'll stay in the background until you bring it forward.

That is the way it should work. I should have the choice of whether the starting app has focus or the one I'm currently in. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

C said the following on 04/08/2012 11:23 AM:

Not justifying the behavior you're seeing on KDE4... just commenting that this is not specific to KDE4... although I've yet to see or notice it on my desktop.

If there's a problem I have with KDE4, if there's a problem I see others - You too, James - have with KDE4, its that there are so many configuration options, and every plugin you load brings more. And they interact. And applications might or might not over-ride some. I know for sure that this is *not* a something you can do with KDE3 that you can't do with KDE4, because its a BTDT, well actually that's how I've got KDE4 working for me. Unless I click on a windows while the new app is starting, the new apps window gets focus. Sorry, James, that's how it is, its not a shortcoming of KDE4. Now what this configuration difference is we can talk back and forth over all week and into next month, but the simplest thing is for James to have faith in the fact that KDE4 *can* work the way he wants it to work, the way he was working with KDE3, and work through, methodologically, the 6.023x10^23 possible combinations of KDE4 settings .... Or we can suggest things and he tries them But without James having faith ... an so long as James holds that KDE4 is cr8p and KDE3 is God's Own Gift To Suse and Should Never Have Been Supplanted, then the Noodly Appendages will never Bestow Their Blessing on his configuration files ... or whatever it takes. Sorry, guys, I'm fed up of two things: 1. People telling me KDE4 is retrograde compared to KDE3 If you don't like it, don't use it and don't complain about it 2. People telling me its not possible to do what I've been doing for a long time and have no problems with. -- The art of progress is to preserve order amid change and to preserve change amid order. --Alfred North Whitehead -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 2012/04/08 13:20 (GMT-0400) James Knott composed:

Actually, all desktop designers should take a hard look at the OS/2 Workplace shell. It included a lot of nice features that I haven't seen elsewhere.

e.g. Browser window in background has a page with an URL I want to copy & paste into window that has focus. Anywhere else, I have to: 1-focus the browser window 2-copy the link 3-refocus the target window 4-paste In OS/2: 1-right click the browser link 2-click copy 3-shift-INS 4-<enter> The difference is OS/2 typically requires a whole lot less mouse movement and screen redrawing to do the same task. -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 2012/04/08 20:21 (GMT+0200) C composed:

Felix Miata wrote:

...

...

Actually, all desktop designers should take a hard look at the OS/2 Workplace shell. It included a lot of nice features that I haven't seen elsewhere.

...

e.g.

...

Browser window in background has a page with an URL I want to copy& paste into window that has focus. Anywhere else, I have to: 1-focus the browser window 2-copy the link 3-refocus the target window 4-paste

...

In OS/2: 1-right click the browser link 2-click copy 3-shift-INS 4-<enter>

...

The difference is OS/2 typically requires a whole lot less mouse movement and screen redrawing to do the same task.

Ummm OK... I just now tested your "In OS/2" example in KDE4 (using default mouse focus settings) with LibreOffice and Chromium. The application with focus was LibreOffice, and Chromium was in the background, but the contents were visible. I followed your *exact* steps you outlined for for OS/2 and.. it worked exactly the same in KDE4. I did *not* have to to the first sequence of steps to achieve the copy/paste in this example. So...

Which KDE4? Right click on a link in a background window in KDE has always focused that window for me, but I haven't reopened Chromium since my first look at it (I uninstalled it). I infrequently have occasion to paste from a web browser into LO. Web browser to me usually means SM or FF, only occasionally Konq, rarely Opera. -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On Sunday, 08 April 2012 13:21 C wrote:

On Sun, Apr 8, 2012 at 19:39, Felix Miata wrote:

...

...

Actually, all desktop designers should take a hard look at the OS/2 Workplace shell. It included a lot of nice features that I haven't seen elsewhere.

e.g.

Browser window in background has a page with an URL I want to copy & paste into window that has focus. Anywhere else, I have to: 1-focus the browser window 2-copy the link 3-refocus the target window 4-paste

In OS/2: 1-right click the browser link 2-click copy 3-shift-INS 4-<enter>

The difference is OS/2 typically requires a whole lot less mouse movement and screen redrawing to do the same task.

Ummm OK... I just now tested your "In OS/2" example in KDE4 (using default mouse focus settings) with LibreOffice and Chromium. The application with focus was LibreOffice, and Chromium was in the background, but the contents were visible. I followed your *exact* steps you outlined for for OS/2 and.. it worked exactly the same in KDE4. I did *not* have to to the first sequence of steps to achieve the copy/paste in this example. So...

C.

I just tried it also. I left kmail up as full window-sized, opened Seamonkey and made it half-size so I could see your post in kmail and the mail links at the bottom of your post to unsubscribe to opensuse (everyone's posts have the same links btw). I right-clicked on the unsubscribe mail link in your post in kmail that was in the background and nothing happened. I had to focus that window before I was allowed to right-click and copy the URL/link. So... -- Powered by Slackware 13.37 18:19:20 up 1 day, 5:23, 2 users, load average: 0.85, 0.77, 0.74 Properly read, the Bible is the most potent force for atheism ever conceived. - Isaac Asimov Registered Linux user #214117 at http://linuxcounter.net -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On Mon, 9 Apr 2012 01:50:31 +0200 C wrote:

I right clicked on a link in an email... and I could copy it *without* needing to bring it forward.

This works from Konversation to whatever other application, Claws Mail the same way, so it is not only KDE applications that work OS/2 way. It works with shift+ins. With ctrl+c it is wrong paste. -- Regards, Rajko -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

* Felix Miata [04-08-12 16:12]:

On 2012/04/08 13:20 (GMT-0400) James Knott composed:

...

Actually, all desktop designers should take a hard look at the OS/2 Workplace shell. It included a lot of nice features that I haven't seen elsewhere.

e.g. (a major reason I still use OS/2) XFile (shareware, not the native file picker, more than a decade old) features:

Remembers window size (across sessions) Remembers window position Fast (cf. https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=283366)

per your posted url: '283366)' is not a valid bug number nor an alias to a bug. sorry, not interested enough to persue this further.

Current DIR File list of current DIR Configurable favorite locations View with Open in file manager Most recent files (must have; one click open) Most recent dirs (must have; one click select) When supported by app opened from, opens in last DIR used by that app (must have)

sounds just like mc in an xterm or konsole window configured to remember its location and size and been around for years and is/was available in all versions of openSUSE that I have used since 5.x. Can you "crank start" your Mazda's? Is that a "missing" feature? You argue for the sake of argument as you are not willing to make the config changes to do what you "made config changes to do before". -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA HOG # US1244711 http://wahoo.no-ip.org Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://linuxcounter.net -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On Sun, Apr 8, 2012 at 22:10, Felix Miata wrote:

e.g. (a major reason I still use OS/2)

I've tried to install OS/2 (last vestion I have is.. I think.. 4.52, but I can't get it to fire up on any computer I own or in VirtualBox.

XFile (shareware, not the native file picker, more than a decade old) features:

Remembers window size (across sessions)

KDE4's Dolphin does this by default

Remembers window position

Not default, but...right click on the Dolphin window tile bar. Select Advanced > Special Window Settings > Size & Position. Place checks in the Position and Size check boxes, and set their option to Remember (ignore the numbers in the text boxes to the right). Click OK. Position Dolphin where you want it to open... close it and open it again... shazam, it remembers Window position.

Fast (cf. https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=283366)

Known bug.. can't help that. I don't have a large number of noauto entries, so I'm unaffected, and Dolphin is very fast on my system.

Current DIR

I don't know what you mean here...

File list of current DIR

Or here

Configurable favorite locations

Check... that's the panel on the left side

View with

Right click > Open With

Open in file manager

Not sure what you mean here

Most recent files (must have; one click open)

Application dependent. Some can do this. Or do you mean the file manager remembers the last X files you interacted with?

Most recent dirs (must have; one click select)

Same as above?

When supported by app opened from, opens in last DIR used by that app (must have)

Application dependent usually (if I understand your point)... most well behaved apps I use are capable of doing this... not all do. C. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On Sun, Apr 8, 2012 at 23:41, Felix Miata wrote:

Newer hardware typically requires newer drivers available only via eCS. Cloning from an old HD is usually easier than installing anew.

Ah.. commercial software that I don't have a license for. The main reason I haven't tried eComStation.

...

...

 Remembers window size (across sessions) KDE4's Dolphin does this by default What does Dolphin have to do with using the system filepicker from an open app to open a file?

Ummm.. no idea... the system filepicker, if called by an application, always shows up exactly where I expect it to... relative to the application that called it.

...

Check... that's the panel on the left side fouled by: https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=297217 https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=297219

To which I can honestly say neither one is an issue on my system. I've got multiple mount points spanning multiple drives and I do *not* see this.. nor have I seen it on ANY system I've installed. It looks like something is horribly broken, or you've set up something like 2 or 3 dozen partitions... to which I'd reply.. what? why? to what end? As for narrow? Nope not an issue either on any system I've installed on.. laptops.. desktops (quite a few too)... On my desktop, it's a completely usable width that I've since twiddled to have the shortcuts I prefer and hidden the 3 I don't need to see.

[1] 800x600 resolution desktop screenshot attached to bug 24625 118 months ago: https://bug24625.bugzilla.mozilla.org/attachment.cgi?id=87914

I may have attached one like it to a KDE bug long ago, but I found the Mozilla bug first.

OK, I can see that being useful, but... OK... it's not there in KDE3 either.. or Gnome... or.. or... I "think" I've seen something similar in that abomination known as CDE that I used to use on Solaris, but nowhere else. C. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 2012/04/08 20:50 (GMT-0400) Anton Aylward composed:

C said the following on 04/08/2012 06:01 PM:

...

...

...

...

...

Check... that's the panel on the left side fouled by: https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=297217 https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=297219

...

To which I can honestly say neither one is an issue on my system.

Ditto. Its about configuration and customization.

Did either of you read either bug or look at the screenshot? AFAICT, the left pane can't be made to stay wide enough to be useful across opens. Location names no more than 4 characters wide until yet again dragging a hard to find narrow drag bar? You people must either have youthful eyes and/or normal or lower DPI displays. 96 DPI can't cut it here. cf. https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=120533 https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=234943 https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=234946 https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=263562

...

I've got multiple mount points spanning multiple drives and I do *not* see this.. nor have I seen it on ANY system I've installed. It looks like something is horribly broken, or you've set up something like 2 or 3 dozen partitions... to which I'd reply.. what? why? to what end?

See? You can't tell what they are from only 3-4 characters or micro icons either! Most of those are fstab NFS and CIFS entries, over 100 on each local system. Few or none are due to unmounted partitions. Few NFS/CIFS entries represent mounted at any given point in time, hence the long scroll in http://bugsfiles.kde.org/attachment.cgi?id=70044

The bugposter seems to have forgotten that you can create new tabs there on the left with new 'roots'. I have a root at $HOME and a root for each of my major mounted file systems. So /home/anton/server/PDF/Books has a tab and that prefix simple doesn't appear. When I select that vertical-tab the directories I'm interested in appear even through the left panel is "narrow'.

Presumably you're back to talking about Dolphin/Konq again. NA again.

...

As for narrow? Nope not an issue either on any system I've installed on.. laptops.. desktops (quite a few too)... On my desktop, it's a completely usable width that I've since twiddled to have the shortcuts I prefer and hidden the 3 I don't need to see.

Just so.

And you can always make it wider.

But not make it stay that way, hence bug 297217. -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

* Stan Goodman [01-01-70 12:34]:

On Sunday, April 08, 2012 23:35:30 C wrote:

...

On Sun, Apr 8, 2012 at 22:10, Felix Miata wrote:

...

e.g. (a major reason I still use OS/2)

-----snip-----

...

...

Remembers window position

Not default, but...right click on the Dolphin window tile bar. Select Advanced > Special Window Settings > Size & Position. Place checks in the Position and Size check boxes, and set their option to Remember (ignore the numbers in the text boxes to the right). Click OK. Position Dolphin where you want it to open... close it and open it again... shazam, it remembers Window position.

The above seems to mean that one has to position the position of the Dolphin window (or any other window, presumably), and then lock it into that position for the future. This is not the OS/2 behavior; in OS/2 one has only to place a window in its desired position, period. There is not need to trickle down through a rather long menu tree, and manipulate check boxes to set a position to be remembered for each window

Point is one has to ability to *choose* which manner is presented, but *you* still have the ability to position the window as you choose/expect w/o use os/2. I, too, used os/2 from the early beta until IBS stepped on it's xyzj, and I left os/2 as I left kde3, kde2/ and early versions of windoz. There are a few, very few, things I like the way windoz does them but I will not .....! -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA HOG # US1244711 http://wahoo.no-ip.org Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://linuxcounter.net -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

C said the following on 04/08/2012 04:35 PM:

...

...

Remembers window position Not default, but...right click on the Dolphin window tile bar. Select Advanced > Special Window Settings > Size & Position. Place checks in the Position and Size check boxes, and set their option to Remember (ignore the numbers in the text boxes to the right). Click OK. Position Dolphin where you want it to open... close it and open it again... shazam, it remembers Window position.

As I said elsewhere, its a function that has been generalized into the Window manager. You can do this with *any* application, *any* window (by name or class), not just the file manager. -- There is no greater mistake than the hasty conclusion that opinions are worthless because they are badly argued. -- Thomas H. Huxley -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 2012/04/08 20:35 (GMT-0400) Anton Aylward composed:

Felix Miata composed:

Note OS/2 feature subthread started at this point by James:

...

On 2012/04/08 13:20 (GMT-0400) James Knott composed:

...

...

Actually, all desktop designers should take a hard look at the OS/2 Workplace shell. It included a lot of nice features that I haven't seen elsewhere.

...

Fast (cf. https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=283366)

How fast things are under KDE/Gnome or anything else depends on many things, not the least of which is 'eye-candy'. I find turning things off (ala LXDE) and making everything 'snappy' annoying.

Waiting multiple seconds for something that's instant in other contexts is annoying too. I globally disable as much bling as possible before first start of X after a new install: #/etc/X11/xorg.conf.d/70-composite.conf Section "Extensions" Option "Composite" "Disable" EndSection

...

Current DIR File list of current DIR Configurable favorite locations

All there in Konqueror/Dolphin.

Why do Konq/Dophin keep coming up in this subthread? My file managers are OFMs, which work essentially the same regards whether X works at all, or even what OS I'm booted to. This subthread I'm in is about accessing files through open applications I actually use, like SeaMonkey, SMplayer, K3B & KSnapshot, using the KDE file picker, and comparing the KDE file picker features to the features of the optional OS/2 file picker I use. It is due to the OS/2 picker features that are absent from other pickers that I remain entrenched in OS/2 for as much as it is able to do for me (including running my DOS Swiss Army Knife apps).

Oh, and in KDE you can define what directory an app will start in.

What I care about for purposes of this thread is exclusively what happens when I have an app open and I enter its file -> open and save as menus, and how quickly it's possible to complete the task at hand.

...

Most recent files (must have; one click open) Most recent dirs (must have; one click select)

Fuzzy concept there; most recent for what? Most recent that you've moved/copied to?

Apparently fuzzy to everyone but me and other OS/2 users using XFile. Most recent access, whether file or dir, which for some apps differs between open and save as. In KDE I'm forever navigating from ~/Documents to wherever I just was or was last and wish to remain or return to. On OS/2 here all such locations are at most 2 clicks away, and as often as not are where the picker already is, unlike the typical case for any Linux DE I've ever used.

Konq/Dol have both "back" (as in previous, stack) that applies to each

Irrelevant. I never use Dolphin, and infrequently use Konq to access local files.

tab AND "up" (work you way back up the directory tree) that applies to each tab. That strikes me as 'more general' and more useful.

"Work back" are key words. Lots more than two clicks most of the time, and infrequently zero.

I also use "F9" to get a sidebar of directories, which is also configurable. Again, more general and more useful. And I can define 'vertical tabs' on the sidebar to give new starting points for lists of directories.

More Dolphin? Then more NA.

...

When supported by app opened from, opens in last DIR used by that app (must have)

That's a function of the app; a sensible, well coded app will also have 'previously opened files'.

Good thing they do sometimes or about the only things I'd use Linux for are Apache and testing web pages in alternate browsers across platforms. Only Windows is solidly more frustrating. Mac is smarter in picking files, but for other reasons nothing I could consider for daily use.

There's nothing here we can't find in KDE.

Except what nobody but me seems to grasp. Fastest possible access to files through open apps to me is crucial must have. Until the very recent 4.8.1 improvement to https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=283366 KDE4's file picker made everyday use of KDE4 a whole planet away from consideration. Even with that huge improvement it's still taking several seconds beyond the instant response I'm used to in KDE3 and OS/2.

There is an evolution of sorts in action. Yes the good ideas are spoken of and in this open source world someone will implement then. If it catches on, great, if not then perhaps it wasn't that desirable.

It's also why some people refuse to leave what ain't broke and don't need fixin'. Not every mutation nets a benefit.

Obviously those ideas from OS/2 had some value, but the developers found that putting them in the desktop manager rather than the file manager made more sense.

Is the KDE file picker not part of the desktop manager? I seriously multitask, even for TV. TV without PIP/POP more than transiently to me is a painful handicap. Multiple apps stay open for days, not minutes, across 7 desktops minimum. File management outside OFM is almost as painful as coping with Windows, where the chores would just pile up instead of ever getting done. -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 04/08/2012 08:11 AM, James Knott wrote:

Lew Wolfgang wrote:

...

Different strokes for different folks! I've been using focus follows mouse for many years (pre-Linux) and along with being able to disable "auto raise" is one of Linux/UNIX's selling points over MS Windows, IMHO.

Choice is the name of the game!

However, when I click on something, it's because I want to use it and it should have focus. As an example, yesterday I was using Wireshark. I clicked on the link about filters and didn't see the browser. I then had to check the open Firefox windows to find the one that had a new tab with the desired info. There is simply no excuse for that sort of behavior. I should not have to search for something I just opened. I don't recall ever seeing that behavior in KDE3 nor in Windows or OS/2.

That's interesting. On my system when I click on a link in Wireshark a new tab in Firefox opens and displays the link contents. If Firefox was already open and not in front, it remains behind. If a new Firefox is started it opens under the Wireshark window, which makes sense since Wireshark has the focus. I do have problems with Thunderbird and Firefox password prompt windows opening under other virtual desktop windows. Now, when I open Thunderbird and it appears to be frozen I use the panel to locate the hidden password prompt. These small windows should be on the top, all the time! I've beefed about this in the past, but maybe it's a Gnome thing? Regards, Lew -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On Sun, 08 Apr 2012 22:07:38 +0530, James Knott wrote:

Lew Wolfgang wrote:

...

If a new Firefox is started it opens under the Wireshark window, which makes sense since Wireshark has the focus.

If I click on something, I expect it to be up front. If I want to remain in the previous app, then clicking on it should keep me there.

Again, this is not consistent. Something is flakey somewhere. The desktop was originally click to focus. However, there were issues with it, so I changed the setting. I've set it back again, so I'll have to see how it goes.

i remember seeing discussions about this on one of the GIMP mailing lists. when using GIMP in multi-window mode (used to be the only one, prior to 2.7 & 2.8), the auxiliary windows are treated differently by different desktop environments. i think there's also a freedesktop.org standard re. this, application windows, tool windows (or whatever they're called), and then there's window hints, and what not. KDE & GNOME handle some of these things differently, perhaps others too, so there's ample room for confusion and unpredictable behavior. -- phani. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On Sunday 08 Apr 2012 11:11:49 James Knott wrote:

Lew Wolfgang wrote:

...

Different strokes for different folks! I've been using focus follows mouse for many years (pre-Linux) and along with being able to disable "auto raise" is one of Linux/UNIX's selling points over MS Windows, IMHO.

Choice is the name of the game!

However, when I click on something, it's because I want to use it and it should have focus. As an example, yesterday I was using Wireshark. I clicked on the link about filters and didn't see the browser. I then had to check the open Firefox windows to find the one that had a new tab with the desired info. There is simply no excuse for that sort of behavior. I should not have to search for something I just opened. I don't recall ever seeing that behavior in KDE3 nor in Windows or OS/2.

Two things could be happening here: 1) Either FF doesn't ask KWin to raise its existing window when a new tab is opened by an external application - I do not know how Wireshark tells FF to open a browser window - does FF come to front when clicking a link in something else, for example, Thunderbird? If these are different it implies the problem is in Wireshark's invocation of FF. 2) Alternatively, FF does not update the window timestamp when a window is opened by Wireshark. This is how the focus stealing prevention logic (in KWin 3 and 4) knows when to focus and bring to front a 'new' window and when to leave it in the background so it can't swallow eg your password keystrokes. HTH Will -- Will Stephenson, openSUSE Board, Booster, KDE Developer SUSE LINUX GmbH, GF: Jeff Hawn, Jennifer Guild, Felix Imendörffer, HRB 21284 (AG Nürnberg) Maxfeldstraße 5 90409 Nürnberg Germany -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On Sun, 08 Apr 2012 20:34:20 +0530, Lew Wolfgang wrote:

On 04/08/2012 07:28 AM, phanisvara das wrote:

...

that was me, mentioning "focus follows mouse," but i neither use nor recommend it; i find it rather confusing.

i expect the focus to remain ideally where i want or expect it, but if that's not the case for some reason, at least where it's at -- not follow the mouse all over the place. i often do things like hovering over taskbar icons or the clock, and having the focus following all that would drive me mad.

Different strokes for different folks! I've been using focus follows mouse for many years (pre-Linux) and along with being able to disable "auto raise" is one of Linux/UNIX's selling points over MS Windows, IMHO.

Choice is the name of the game!

i'm probably just too young, as a consistent linux user if not as a human being (4 years / 54 years). i started with KDE3, and the default was focus on mouse click, as it used to be under windows. when i tried 'focus follows mouse' it just felt strange. could probably get used to it if i wanted to, like i got used to a tiling window manager (awesome), but right now i don't see the need. PS: sorry for the private email. for some reason opera sometimes defaults to reply to the list, at other times to the sender. different mail clients talking to each other, i guess. -- phani. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 04/08/2012 08:39 AM, phanisvara das wrote:

i started with KDE3, and the default was focus on mouse click, as it used to be under windows. when i tried 'focus follows mouse' it just felt strange. could probably get used to it if i wanted to, like i got used to a tiling window manager (awesome), but right now i don't see the need.

I think KDE defaults to MS Windows behavior. You have to manually enable focus follows mouse and disable click to raise. System administrators of networks of hosts will sometimes open multiple command windows with a ssh session running in each. The windows can then be tiled and offset so that the bottom of each is visible under the window on top. The admin can them easily change focus by just moving the mouse pointer between the tiled/offset windows and be able to enter commands just by typing. Having to click the mouse before typing would totally wreck this convenience, as would the window receiving focus rising to the top. This capability lacking in MS Windows is the single most important factor that proves Windows is a toy operating system not designed for serious work, IMHO. YMMV. Regards, Lew -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On Sunday, 08 April 2012 09:03 James Knott wrote:

C wrote:

...

On Sun, Apr 8, 2012 at 14:24, James Knott wrote:

...

One thing I've noticed is that KDE4 simply doesn't work as well as KDE3, even ignoring the differences in features. For example, often when I click on something to open it, I have to hunt to see where it is, rather than it opening on top of everything else. I also find that when something opens, it often does not have focus for the keyboard, so that if, for example, I press Alt-F2 to run something, I find that even though the box opens, I wind up typing into another app.

In this aspect alone, KDE4 has a long way to go to catch up to KDE3, even before considering the things that are no longer possible in KDE4.

Have you tweaked a setting somewhere? i haven't encountered this issue you present as an example of a problem with KDE4 at all.. and I just tested it following your example and it behaves as you are expecting it to not how you are describing it (ie I open an app using Alt+F2 and focus is immediately shifted to the new app once it's open).

C.

It's not consistent. That's why I said "often". There is a setting in Personal Settings for Window Behaviour. At someone's advice here, I changed it to "Focus follows mouse", but it didn't do much.

You're original post also reminded me to say it happens in KDE4 on Slackware also. It (KDE4) is nothing but a PITA, unfortunately. Can't remember if it does this also on my openSuSE 11.3 partition...gonna have to boot into it and see. I also thought about trying the 'focus follows mouse' thing, but just thinking ahead about it figured it'd be such a huge mess I left it alone and just bungle along with whatever way I have to to get KDE4 to work for me. -- Powered by Slackware 13.37 12:21:13 up 23:25, 2 users, load average: 0.72, 0.76, 0.77 Properly read, the Bible is the most potent force for atheism ever conceived. - Isaac Asimov Registered Linux user #214117 at http://linuxcounter.net -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org