Cornelius Franken wrote:

My Grandmother always said 'Never argue with idiots they drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.'

If someone gets all personal about technology he/she/it needs to get out into the sunshine a little more. Ignore them.

Regards Neil

I always liked the one that says never get in a fight with a skunk. You may win, but you'll still smell like the skunk. Jim -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

I attended a conference in California last year and Josh Berkus was a presenter. He talked for an hour on this very subject.... his presentation is here: http://www.powerpostgresql.com/download/TFCKUpload/25.pdf He makes a clear point about "Poisonous People" that all open source communities should pay attention to.... To effectively _destroy_ your community.... quoting.... ======= Maximize the damage they can do! 1. Argue with them at length 2. Denounce them venomously 3. Ban them 4. Argue with them in other projects 5. Allow them back into your project 6. GOTO 1 ======= It seems that we as the openSUSE community are following these steps exactly. That is _not_ a good thing. Something to think about. Do we take steps to eliminate dissenting opinions? Or do we allow it? Do we label someone as poisonous to the community and ban them? What if the point they are making, although maybe poorly stated, is a valid one? This is a critical point in this community's evolution... and whatever action that is taken, it MUST be taken with full knowledge of the long term effects. C. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Wednesday 25 June 2008, John Andersen wrote:

On Wed, Jun 25, 2008 at 12:14 AM, Clayton wrote:

That fact that the "poisonous" moniker was affixed to Aaron by a member of Opensuse suggests someone ELSE attended that conference or read the summary.

May be we should apply that moniker to most of the opensuse board we may just get somewhere then with getting a distro that is what the USERS not the button bashers choice of bugs failures and glitches -- SuSE Linux 10.3-Alpha3. (Linux is like a wigwam - no Gates, no Windows, and an Apache inside.) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Thursday 26 June 2008, JB2 wrote:

On 25 June 08, peter nikolic wrote:

...

On Wednesday 25 June 2008, John Andersen wrote:

...

On Wed, Jun 25, 2008 at 12:14 AM, Clayton wrote:

That fact that the "poisonous" moniker was affixed to Aaron by a member of Opensuse suggests someone ELSE attended that conference or read the summary.

May be we should apply that moniker to most of the opensuse board we may just get somewhere then with getting a distro that is what the USERS not the button bashers choice of bugs failures and glitches

Careful...you're treading awfully close to being considered 'poisonous'! After all...if we look at it this way - king snakes are often misidentified as rattlers or copperheads (the former being non-poisonous). They might start just figuring since it 'looks' close enough to being poisonous, it might as well be quashed...just to be safe.

-- Bureaucracy: The organization to get things done that keeps things from getting done.

- Aahz (from Myth Conceptions)

Maybe i am but the thing is we are bieng hurded by them at the moment and they are dreaming up ever more childish ways of crapping on the decenters . There aint one of them has ever given a straight POLITE answer it has always been loaded with sarcasm and what i refered to previously as the Germanic attitude (not saying all Germans are the same BTW) this is what we say and this is what is going to be it's the same attitude we get on the roads here when you see certain types driving BMW's you know instantly they are not going to slow down or give way just barge straight thru (except that they would have to hit me to move me if i was there first) Cheers Pete PS KDE4 is stillnot ready for public distribution -- SuSE Linux 10.3-Alpha3. (Linux is like a wigwam - no Gates, no Windows, and an Apache inside.) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

peter nikolic wrote:

On Wednesday 25 June 2008, John Andersen wrote:

...

On Wed, Jun 25, 2008 at 12:14 AM, Clayton wrote:

...

That fact that the "poisonous" moniker was affixed to Aaron by a member of Opensuse suggests someone ELSE attended that conference or read the summary.

May be we should apply that moniker to most of the opensuse board we may just get somewhere then with getting a distro that is what the USERS not the button bashers choice of bugs failures and glitches

The only way you are going to get anywhere close to the "opensuse board" is by buying up big on Novell shares so that you have an absolutely overwhelming influence at a shareholders meeting to get the Novell's Board of Management to do what you want done. You're other alternative is to vote with your feet and stop buying the freebie downloadable version of openSUSE. Of course, there is always the third alternative which is to stand in the middle of Trafalgar Square and keep shouting, "openSUSE *SUXS*!" Ciao. -- It's not possible to operate honestly using a basis of dishonesty. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Clayton writes:

I attended a conference in California last year and Josh Berkus was a presenter. He talked for an hour on this very subject.... his presentation is here:

http://www.powerpostgresql.com/download/TFCKUpload/25.pdf

I'm aware of the google presentation: http://www.slideshare.net/oscon2007/os-fitzpatrick-sussman Where they say that at one point you need to make a stand against them. Thanks for that link.

He makes a clear point about "Poisonous People" that all open source communities should pay attention to.... To effectively _destroy_ your community.... quoting.... ======= Maximize the damage they can do! 1. Argue with them at length 2. Denounce them venomously 3. Ban them 4. Argue with them in other projects 5. Allow them back into your project 6. GOTO 1 ======= It seems that we as the openSUSE community are following these steps exactly. That is _not_ a good thing.

We're at number 3 and did not allow him back in the project. He come back under disguise - took a shortcute ;-) Read again what I wrote: In the meantime, we would like to remind others on the mailing lists to stop responding to his emails. I agree, we have to stop at number 1 and discourage him instead of encouraging.

Something to think about. Do we take steps to eliminate dissenting opinions? Or do we allow it? Do we label someone as poisonous to the community and ban them? What if the point they are making, although maybe poorly stated, is a valid one?

We're not speaking about his points about KDE4, we're speaking about his violation of our rules in the past.

This is a critical point in this community's evolution... and whatever action that is taken, it MUST be taken with full knowledge of the long term effects.

Let's followup on the project mailing list, reply-to is set, Andreas -- Andreas Jaeger, Director Platform / openSUSE, aj@suse.de SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) Maxfeldstr. 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany GPG fingerprint = 93A3 365E CE47 B889 DF7F FED1 389A 563C C272 A126