[opensuse] odd /usr/bin thing
Hello SuSE users, While searching for files in /usr/bin I noticed something that seems odd to me. There is a folder in there named X11. It is a link to the same folder. If you open it, it shows the exact same thing as /usr/bin. You can continue opening the X11 directory until you have a /usr/bin//X11/X11/X11/X11 file open on ad-infitum. They all show the exact same files and megabytes. What is this? Can somebody explain the purpose? Bob S -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Bob S escribió:
Hello SuSE users,
While searching for files in /usr/bin I noticed something that seems odd to me. There is a folder in there named X11.
In this world, there are no "folders" but "directories" ;)
It is a link to the same folder.
If you open it, it shows the exact same thing as /usr/bin.
You can continue
opening the X11 directory until you have a /usr/bin//X11/X11/X11/X11 file open on ad-infitum. yes, yes, yes ;)
Can somebody explain the purpose?
Backward compatiblity. -- "The only thing that interferes with my learning is my education." - Albert Einstein Cristian Rodríguez R. Platform/OpenSUSE - Core Services SUSE LINUX Products GmbH Research & Development http://www.opensuse.org/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Sonntag, 6. Januar 2008 Cristian Rodríguez:
Bob S escribió:
Can somebody explain the purpose?
Backward compatiblity.
Cristian Rodríguez R. Platform/OpenSUSE - Core Services SUSE LINUX Products GmbH Research & Development http://www.opensuse.org/
That's an answer straight out of opensuse core services? Scary. Wolfgang -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Wolfgang Woehl escribió:
That's an answer straight out of opensuse core services? Scary.
What else you expect.. is just that, backward compatibility.. !! :-P a symlink for applications that expect X binaries in /usr/bin/X11 .. -- "The only thing that interferes with my learning is my education." - Albert Einstein Cristian Rodríguez R. Platform/OpenSUSE - Core Services SUSE LINUX Products GmbH Research & Development http://www.opensuse.org/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Sunday 06 January 2008 10:20, Wolfgang Woehl wrote:
Backward compatiblity.
Cristian Rodríguez R. Platform/OpenSUSE - Core Services ...
That's an answer straight out of opensuse core services? Scary.
Why is this scary?
There must be a zillion old scripts out there that use /usr/bin/X11 to invoke
binaries related to X11. Not having this link would break them, and the link
doesn't cost much, so why break those scripts if there is a simple way to
avoid that?
CU
--
Stefan Hundhammer
Montag, 7. Januar 2008 Stefan Hundhammer:
On Sunday 06 January 2008 10:20, Wolfgang Woehl wrote:
Backward compatiblity.
Cristian Rodríguez R. Platform/OpenSUSE - Core Services
...
That's an answer straight out of opensuse core services? Scary.
Why is this scary?
What Cristian gave as an "answer" to Bob's question was impolitely stinted and arrogant. So what? There's cowboys everywhere. Only why did he bother in the first place? Coming from a guy with a opensuse signature it starts to get scary. I work for the city of Munich where there is currently a huge OS rollover going on. 15.000+ clients leaving abominably old MS product behind and going "LiMux". Main contractor is Novell. I'm not entirely sure that we will want to see attitudes like Cristian's move up the ladder and end up in support one day. So I'm pointing fingers. Thinking it's the small things that add up :) Yes, I'll take the blame. Wolfgang -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Mon, 2008-01-07 at 21:53 +0100, Wolfgang Woehl wrote:
Montag, 7. Januar 2008 Stefan Hundhammer:
On Sunday 06 January 2008 10:20, Wolfgang Woehl wrote:
Backward compatiblity.
Cristian Rodríguez R. Platform/OpenSUSE - Core Services
...
That's an answer straight out of opensuse core services? Scary.
Why is this scary?
What Cristian gave as an "answer" to Bob's question was impolitely stinted and arrogant. So what? There's cowboys everywhere. Only why did he bother in the first place?
It didn't seem impolite to me but then I'm an Anglo-Saxon :) It was just short and to the point.
Coming from a guy with a opensuse signature it starts to get scary. I work for the city of Munich where there is currently a huge OS rollover going on. 15.000+ clients leaving abominably old MS product behind and going "LiMux". Main contractor is Novell.
I have huge admiration for Műnchen's decision. Keep it up. I hope Novell do recognize the importance and give you full support. Cheers, Dave -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Wolfgang Woehl escribió:
What Cristian gave as an "answer" to Bob's question was impolitely stinted and arrogant. So what?
doh, my answer was very short and concise, nothing else..
Coming from a guy with a opensuse signature it starts to get scary.
huh ? looks like you are overeacting.. I work for
the city of Munich
that's far away from here were I am.. hrmm.. about 33hrs by plane. ;)
I'm not entirely sure that we will want to see attitudes like Cristian's move up the ladder and end up in support one day.
That will not happend, as I dont work in tech support but in development. -- "The only thing that interferes with my learning is my education." - Albert Einstein Cristian Rodríguez R. Platform/OpenSUSE - Core Services SUSE LINUX Products GmbH Research & Development http://www.opensuse.org/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Montag, 7. Januar 2008 Cristian Rodríguez:
Wolfgang Woehl escribió:
Coming from a guy with a opensuse signature it starts to get scary.
huh ? looks like you are overeacting..
Yes, you may be right. But I'll be watching you :) Be good, Wolfgang -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Wolfgang Woehl wrote:
What Cristian gave as an "answer" to Bob's question was impolitely stinted and arrogant. So what? There's cowboys everywhere. Only why did he bother in the first place?
The person asking the original question wasn't down and asking for support, it was simply a matter of curiosity. I thought the answer was succinct, went right to the heart of the matter, and summed up everything *I* would have needed to know, quite nicely. Would that more official answers were so pithy. Joe -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Montag, 7. Januar 2008 Sloan:
Would that more official answers were so pithy.
Lost dude: I'm lost. Where am I? Cowboy dude: . Lost dude: Where should I go now? Cowboy dude: .. Right, that should help. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Wolfgang Woehl wrote:
Montag, 7. Januar 2008 Sloan:
Would that more official answers were so pithy.
Lost dude: I'm lost. Where am I? Cowboy dude: . Lost dude: Where should I go now? Cowboy dude: ..
Right, that should help.
You Europeans just do NOT understand cowboys..... Lost dude: I'm lost. Where am I? Cowboy dude: You're in the barber shop in [town X] Lost dude: Where should I go now? Cowboy dude: I suppose that depends on what you want to do. Your problem is that you're looking for someone to replace your mama. You're beginning to remind me of someone in this story: A man in a hot air balloon realized he was lost. He reduced altitude and spotted a woman below. He descended a bit more and shouted, "Excuse me, can you help me? I promised a friend I would meet him an hour ago, but I don't know where I am." The woman below replied, "You're in a hot air balloon hovering approximately 30 feet above the ground. You're between 40 and 41 degrees north latitude and between 59 and 60 degrees west longitude." "You must be in Information Technology," said the balloonist. "I am," replied the woman, "How did you know?" "Well," answered the balloonist, "everything you told me is, technically correct, but I've no idea what to make of your information, and the fact is I'm still lost. Frankly, you've not been much help at all. If anything, you've delayed my trip." The woman below responded, "You must be a lawyer or a politician. "I am both," replied the balloonist, "but how did you know?" "Well," said the woman, "You don't know where you are or where you're going. You have risen to where you are, due to a large quantity of hot air. You made a promise, which you've no idea how to keep, and you expect people beneath you to solve your problems. The fact is you are in exactly the same position you were in before we met, but now, somehow, it's my fault." -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Aaron Kulkis schreef:
Wolfgang Woehl wrote:
Montag, 7. Januar 2008 Sloan:
Would that more official answers were so pithy.
Lost dude: I'm lost. Where am I? Cowboy dude: . Lost dude: Where should I go now? Cowboy dude: ..
Right, that should help.
You Europeans just do NOT understand cowboys.....
Lost dude: I'm lost. Where am I? Cowboy dude: You're in the barber shop in [town X] Lost dude: Where should I go now? Cowboy dude: I suppose that depends on what you want to do.
Your problem is that you're looking for someone to replace your mama.
You're beginning to remind me of someone in this story:
A man in a hot air balloon realized he was lost. He reduced altitude and spotted a woman below. He descended a bit more and shouted, "Excuse me, can you help me? I promised a friend I would meet him an hour ago, but I don't know where I am."
The woman below replied, "You're in a hot air balloon hovering approximately 30 feet above the ground. You're between 40 and 41 degrees north latitude and between 59 and 60 degrees west longitude."
"You must be in Information Technology," said the balloonist.
"I am," replied the woman, "How did you know?"
"Well," answered the balloonist, "everything you told me is, technically correct, but I've no idea what to make of your information, and the fact is I'm still lost. Frankly, you've not been much help at all. If anything, you've delayed my trip."
The woman below responded, "You must be a lawyer or a politician.
"I am both," replied the balloonist, "but how did you know?"
"Well," said the woman, "You don't know where you are or where you're going. You have risen to where you are, due to a large quantity of hot air. You made a promise, which you've no idea how to keep, and you expect people beneath you to solve your problems. The fact is you are in exactly the same position you were in before we met, but now, somehow, it's my fault."
I lov'it, lov'it! Yes! - -- Have a nice day, M9. Now, is the only time that exists. OS: Linux 2.6.24-rc6-git7-2-default x86_64 Huidige gebruiker: monkey9@tribal-sfn2 Systeem: openSUSE 11.0 (x86_64) Alpha0 KDE: 3.5.8 "release 30" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.5 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFHg0MKX5/X5X6LpDgRAn0+AJ0VtDP9hpLNETAzDiHgTaqZgptFFgCgu3Ly b5PIuZmTpK6fvJlp/jEOrMA= =r25h -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Aaron Kulkis wrote:
Wolfgang Woehl wrote:
Montag, 7. Januar 2008 Sloan:
Would that more official answers were so pithy.
Lost dude: I'm lost. Where am I? Cowboy dude: . Lost dude: Where should I go now? Cowboy dude: ..
Right, that should help.
You Europeans just do NOT understand cowboys.....
Lost dude: I'm lost. Where am I? Cowboy dude: You're in the barber shop in [town X] Lost dude: Where should I go now? Cowboy dude: I suppose that depends on what you want to do.
Your problem is that you're looking for someone to replace your mama.
From the jokes, I can tell that you are not a cowboy and have never worked on a ranch. I own one, live on it, work it, and still herd cattle with a horse and dog. The definition of a rough morning is delivering a calf at 4am, when it is freezing cold, and the calf has to be turned and pulled out. The clue that you are not a cowboy is that the words cowboy and dude have opposite meanings. In the cowboy world, a dude is a city slicker. Bill Anderson WW7BA -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Dienstag, 8. Januar 2008 Bill Anderson:
From the jokes, I can tell that you are not a cowboy and have never worked on a ranch. I own one, live on it, work it, and still herd cattle with a horse and dog. The definition of a rough morning is delivering a calf at 4am, when it is freezing cold, and the calf has to be turned and pulled out. The clue that you are not a cowboy is that the words cowboy and dude have opposite meanings. In the cowboy world, a dude is a city slicker.
If I were a cowboy the morning chill would definitely have an effect on my verbosity levels, that much I know. That's what I tried to say. Didn't mean to insult the craftsmen of the west. Plus not that I could. Brevity I cherish. Linus-Torvald-Chuck-Yeager's kind of brevity. There are times and people for it. But if someone asks for a little hand-holding you might just do that or not bother at all. Wolfgang -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Montag, 7. Januar 2008 Aaron Kulkis:
Your problem is that you're looking for someone to replace your mama.
That's off-topic and therefore an entirely illegal statement :)
You're beginning to remind me of someone in this story: (...)
That's a nice story in its own right. But of course like I was unfair on cowboys the story is not all too fair on balloonists. Wolfgang -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Wolfgang Woehl wrote:
Montag, 7. Januar 2008 Stefan Hundhammer:
On Sunday 06 January 2008 10:20, Wolfgang Woehl wrote:
Backward compatiblity.
Cristian Rodríguez R. Platform/OpenSUSE - Core Services
...
That's an answer straight out of opensuse core services? Scary.
Why is this scary?
What Cristian gave as an "answer" to Bob's question was impolitely stinted and arrogant. So what? There's cowboys everywhere. Only why did he bother in the first place?
I think you're being very harsh on Cristian. He posted an answer that was accurate and correct. That doesn't make him a cowboy, by any stretch of the imagination. Some people don't have the time to read a wikipedia of information on computing history to understand why something works the way it does. He explained it, I moved on. Where's the problem?
Coming from a guy with a opensuse signature it starts to get scary. I work for the city of Munich where there is currently a huge OS rollover going on. 15.000+ clients leaving abominably old MS product behind and going "LiMux". Main contractor is Novell.
Oh grow up, it's not scary. Scary isn't a short answer on a mailing list, scary is when your Win2K servers crash after an update that's been pushed from Redmond that you don't actually know about.
I'm not entirely sure that we will want to see attitudes like Cristian's move up the ladder and end up in support one day. So I'm pointing fingers. Thinking it's the small things that add up :) Yes, I'll take the blame.
Wolfgang
I propose Cristian gets a pay rise and a promotion! He answered a complex question with a concise answer in a short period of time. I read it and moved on to something more worrying, since I now know it's not an issue. Thank you Cristian, you've made this issue clear. I'll work on something that's actually important, rather than staring at my navel and working on getting fat off the state teat. Best wishes to you and the suse oss developers for 2008, and thanks for a great 10.3 - it's a very, very nice release :) Cheers Pete -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Wolfgang Woehl wrote:
Montag, 7. Januar 2008 Stefan Hundhammer:
On Sunday 06 January 2008 10:20, Wolfgang Woehl wrote:
Backward compatiblity.
Cristian Rodríguez R. Platform/OpenSUSE - Core Services ...
That's an answer straight out of opensuse core services? Scary. Why is this scary?
What Cristian gave as an "answer" to Bob's question was impolitely stinted and arrogant. So what? There's cowboys everywhere. Only why did he bother in the first place?
Because it *THE* answer.
Coming from a guy with a opensuse signature it starts to get scary.
When an opensuse staffer gives a correct, succinct answer, why is that "scary" for YOU?
I work for the city of Munich where there is currently a huge OS rollover going on. 15.000+ clients leaving abominably old MS product behind and going "LiMux". Main contractor is Novell.
And so this obligates the staffer to do give some other answer, why, exactly?
I'm not entirely sure that we will want to see attitudes like Cristian's move up the ladder and end up in support one day. So I'm pointing fingers. Thinking it's the small things that add up :) Yes, I'll take the blame.
I think you are being completely unreasonable in your expectations of Cristian and others on staff. Every moment that Cristian is writing long, unnecessary text to an answer is time that he's NOT working on some other problem, or helping someone else...perhaps, someday, that someone else could be YOU. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Montag, 7. Januar 2008 Aaron Kulkis:
I think you are being completely unreasonable in your expectations of Cristian and others on staff.
I'm sure someone who'd ask about the "odd /usr/bin thing" would expect a tad more than "backward compatibility". But what do I know, he even thanked Cristian. Instead of Philipp and Bill who got it the first time around. Wolfgang -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Sunday 06 January 2008 02:17:58 am Cristian Rodríguez wrote:
Bob S escribió:
Hello SuSE users,
While searching for files in /usr/bin I noticed something that seems odd to me. There is a folder in there named X11.
In this world, there are no "folders" but "directories" ;)
It is a link to the same folder.
If
you open it, it shows the exact same thing as /usr/bin.
You can continue
opening the X11 directory until you have a /usr/bin//X11/X11/X11/X11 file open on ad-infitum.
yes, yes, yes ;)
Can somebody explain the purpose?
Backward compatiblity.
Thanks Cristian Bob S -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Sun, 6 Jan 2008 01:23:41 -0500, Bob S wrote:
While searching for files in /usr/bin I noticed something that seems odd to me. There is a folder in there named X11. It is a link to the same folder. If you open it, it shows the exact same thing as /usr/bin.
This is all as it should be. This symlink /usr/bin/X11 -> /usr/bin exists for compatibility with programs that search in /usr/bin/X11. Shells and file managers get confused by this recursion and don't shortcut it. Philipp -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 The Sunday 2008-01-06 at 11:03 +0100, Philipp Thomas wrote:
This is all as it should be. This symlink /usr/bin/X11 -> /usr/bin exists for compatibility with programs that search in /usr/bin/X11.
Shells and file managers get confused by this recursion and don't shortcut it.
Then, it must be the same type of thing as /boot/boot --> /boot - hey, I no longer have that one :-? - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4-svn0 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFHgKz4tTMYHG2NR9URArQDAJwPDreL4tsN3R4Nx+ahMk/WTjoIVQCfdduN jc2i9Xu36eFbHkWRUPCr5c4= =7F5f -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Sunday 06 January 2008 04:27:02 am Carlos E. R. wrote:
This is all as it should be. This symlink /usr/bin/X11 -> /usr/bin exists for compatibility with programs that search in /usr/bin/X11.
Shells and file managers get confused by this recursion and don't shortcut it.
Then, it must be the same type of thing as /boot/boot --> /boot - hey, I no longer have that one :-?
What you gonna do? You system lost compatibility. -- Regards, Rajko -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Sunday 06 January 2008 04:27:02 am Carlos E. R. wrote:
Then, it must be the same type of thing as /boot/boot --> /boot - hey, I no longer have that one :-?
you should, I have it on 10.3:-) jdd -- http://www.dodin.net -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 The Sunday 2008-01-06 at 14:28 +0100, jdd wrote:
On Sunday 06 January 2008 04:27:02 am Carlos E. R. wrote:
Then, it must be the same type of thing as /boot/boot --> /boot - hey, I no longer have that one :-?
you should, I have it on 10.3:-)
Curious! I must have deleted it more or less accidentally. Mmmm... should I recreate it? As far as I know, it works fine. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4-svn0 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFHgjHgtTMYHG2NR9URArvOAKCGZ4p2Dadqd+VwbZ/a3r2DB6gmFgCfTzqB evdtjp4d1NkfTn4uX9Eq2cM= =/OwA -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Bob S wrote:
Hello SuSE users,
While searching for files in /usr/bin I noticed something that seems odd to me. There is a folder in there named X11. It is a link to the same folder. If you open it, it shows the exact same thing as /usr/bin. You can continue opening the X11 directory until you have a /usr/bin//X11/X11/X11/X11 file open on ad-infitum. They all show the exact same files and megabytes. What is this? Can somebody explain the purpose?
Bob S
Not sure of the reason, but it only impacts on the logical path pwd -L. The physical path (pwd -P) remains as /usr/bin. The impact is to have all X11 binaries appear in /usr/bin instead of /usr/bin/X11. Like many symbolic links, it makes the applications happy even when the underlying structure changes. For those of us who use UNIX, we are used to /bin being a symbolic link to /usr/bin, and a bunch of other symbolic links to reflect a change in the structure of the file system hierarchy. Bill Anderson WW7BA -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Bill Anderson wrote:
Bob S wrote:
Hello SuSE users,
While searching for files in /usr/bin I noticed something that seems odd to me. There is a folder in there named X11. It is a link to the same folder. If you open it, it shows the exact same thing as /usr/bin. You can continue opening the X11 directory until you have a /usr/bin//X11/X11/X11/X11 file open on ad-infitum. They all show the exact same files and megabytes. What is this? Can somebody explain the purpose?
Bob S
Not sure of the reason, but it only impacts on the logical path pwd -L. The physical path (pwd -P) remains as /usr/bin. The impact is to have all X11 binaries appear in /usr/bin instead of /usr/bin/X11. Like many symbolic links, it makes the applications happy even when the underlying structure changes. For those of us who use UNIX, we are used to /bin being a symbolic link to /usr/bin,
since when? there are several programs which have always been in /bin because they are needed in runlevel 0 and run level S, neither of which have /usr mounted, but which are not administrative only, (and thus do NOT reside in /sbin or /usr/sbin). examples being: cp, chown, dd, grep, awk, cat, chmod, chgrp, date, kill, ln, ls, mount, umount, rm, rmdir, sed, stty, tar, shells (sh/ksh/csh/tcsh/bash), false, true, uname, ed, ex, vi And others depending on vendor/distribution.
and a bunch of other symbolic links to reflect a change in the structure of the file system hierarchy.
Bill Anderson WW7BA
-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Aaron Kulkis wrote:
Bill Anderson wrote:
Bob S wrote:
Hello SuSE users,
While searching for files in /usr/bin I noticed something that seems odd to me. There is a folder in there named X11. It is a link to the same folder. If you open it, it shows the exact same thing as /usr/bin. You can continue opening the X11 directory until you have a /usr/bin//X11/X11/X11/X11 file open on ad-infitum. They all show the exact same files and megabytes. What is this? Can somebody explain the purpose?
Bob S
Not sure of the reason, but it only impacts on the logical path pwd -L. The physical path (pwd -P) remains as /usr/bin. The impact is to have all X11 binaries appear in /usr/bin instead of /usr/bin/X11. Like many symbolic links, it makes the applications happy even when the underlying structure changes. For those of us who use UNIX, we are used to /bin being a symbolic link to /usr/bin,
since when? there are several programs which have always been in /bin because they are needed in runlevel 0 and run level S, neither of which have /usr mounted, but which are not administrative only, (and thus do NOT reside in /sbin or /usr/sbin).
examples being: cp, chown, dd, grep, awk, cat, chmod, chgrp, date, kill, ln, ls, mount, umount, rm, rmdir, sed, stty, tar, shells (sh/ksh/csh/tcsh/bash), false, true, uname, ed, ex, vi
And others depending on vendor/distribution.
and a bunch of other symbolic links to reflect a change in the structure of the file system hierarchy.
Bill Anderson WW7BA
-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Bill Anderson wrote:
Bob S wrote:
Hello SuSE users,
While searching for files in /usr/bin I noticed something that seems odd to me. There is a folder in there named X11. It is a link to the same folder. If you open it, it shows the exact same thing as /usr/bin. You can continue opening the X11 directory until you have a /usr/bin//X11/X11/X11/X11 file open on ad-infitum. They all show the exact same files and megabytes. What is this? Can somebody explain the purpose?
Bob S
Not sure of the reason, but it only impacts on the logical path pwd -L. The physical path (pwd -P) remains as /usr/bin. The impact is to have all X11 binaries appear in /usr/bin instead of /usr/bin/X11. Like many symbolic links, it makes the applications happy even when the underlying structure changes. For those of us who use UNIX, we are used to /bin being a symbolic link to /usr/bin,
since when? there are several programs which have always been in /bin because they are needed in runlevel 0 and run level S, neither of which have /usr mounted, but which are not administrative only, (and thus do NOT reside in /sbin or /usr/sbin). Since the early 1990s, /bin has been a symbolic link to /usr/bin. If you go to runlevel S, you will find that there are a minimal number of utilities in /usr/bin. These are hidden if you have a separate mount for /usr. The intent was for /usr to be a static directory.
examples being: cp, chown, dd, grep, awk, cat, chmod, chgrp, date, kill, ln, ls, mount, umount, rm, rmdir, sed, stty, tar, shells (sh/ksh/csh/tcsh/bash), false, true, uname, ed, ex, vi I think you need to get on a Unix box, and check out the actual structure. Linux has never followed this path, and holds to the old Unix structure. I have been working with Unix since 1978, and have been
Aaron Kulkis wrote: through a number of file structure changes. The point is that symbolic links are used to for backwards compatibility. As a side light, a number of the utilities that you mention are now shell built-ins, which take precedence over the equivalent command. For example, pwd is a built-in that has the -L and -P options for ksh and bash. The /usr/bin command does not have these options, and exists for Bourne shell compatibility. You might also note that under Linux it is /usr/bin/sh, /usr/bin/ksh, and /bin/bash. Most people are not aware that the default behavior for ksh and bash is to show the logical path, so that cd .. behaves as expected. It is the shell that tracks the logical path. The system calls still refer to the physical path, as does /bin/pwd. For those interested in understanding this behavior try cd -P /usr/tmp and then do the pwd command. The shell built-in for cd also support the -P and -L options. Bill Anderson WW7BA -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Monday 07 January 2008 16:54:54 Bill Anderson wrote:
I think you need to get on a Unix box, and check out the actual structure. Linux has never followed this path, and holds to the old Unix structure. I have been working with Unix since 1978, and have been through a number of file structure changes.
The point is that symbolic links are used to for backwards compatibility.
As a side light, a number of the utilities that you mention are now shell built-ins, which take precedence over the equivalent command. For example, pwd is a built-in that has the -L and -P options for ksh and bash. The /usr/bin command does not have these options, and exists for Bourne shell compatibility. You might also note that under Linux it is /usr/bin/sh, /usr/bin/ksh, and /bin/bash.
It's worth noting that the filesystem is ruled by the Filesystem Hierarchy Standard, http://www.pathname.com/fhs/pub/fhs-2.3.pdf According to it, /bin must be functioning when no partitions other than / are mounted, and thus can't be a symlink Also, it mandates /bin/sh, even though it might be a symlink to another shell, in most cases that is /bin/bash There is also /usr/bin/sh but that is secondary The same is true for ksh, it is also /bin/ksh as well as /usr/bin/ksh, although both are symlinks to /lib/ast/bin/ksh, which is fine since /lib is also mandatory on the / partition For some unknown reason /bin/csh may be a symlink to /usr/bin/tcsh, so if you're on a distribution that keeps tcsh in /usr you should perhaps not use csh as the root shell, in case you have to do any emergency repairs without filesystems mounted (in SuSE it is in /bin) Anders -- Madness takes its toll -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Anders Johansson wrote:
On Monday 07 January 2008 16:54:54 Bill Anderson wrote:
I think you need to get on a Unix box, and check out the actual structure. Linux has never followed this path, and holds to the old Unix structure. I have been working with Unix since 1978, and have been through a number of file structure changes.
The point is that symbolic links are used to for backwards compatibility.
As a side light, a number of the utilities that you mention are now shell built-ins, which take precedence over the equivalent command. For example, pwd is a built-in that has the -L and -P options for ksh and bash. The /usr/bin command does not have these options, and exists for Bourne shell compatibility. You might also note that under Linux it is /usr/bin/sh, /usr/bin/ksh, and /bin/bash.
It's worth noting that the filesystem is ruled by the Filesystem Hierarchy Standard, http://www.pathname.com/fhs/pub/fhs-2.3.pdf
According to it, /bin must be functioning when no partitions other than / are mounted, and thus can't be a symlink
Also, it mandates /bin/sh, even though it might be a symlink to another shell, in most cases that is /bin/bash
There is also /usr/bin/sh but that is secondary
The same is true for ksh, it is also /bin/ksh as well as /usr/bin/ksh, although both are symlinks to /lib/ast/bin/ksh, which is fine since /lib is also mandatory on the / partition
For some unknown reason /bin/csh may be a symlink to /usr/bin/tcsh, so if you're on a distribution that keeps tcsh in /usr you should perhaps not use csh as the root shell, in case you have to do any emergency repairs without filesystems mounted (in SuSE it is in /bin)
Anders
The FHS document applies to Linux, not to Unix. The symbolic link of /bin to /usr/bin only exits in current Unix file system hierarchies. I just checked an AIX 5.3 system and a Solaris 10 system, both have this symbolic link. Bill Anderson WW7BA -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Monday 07 January 2008 20:35:02 Bill Anderson wrote:
The FHS document applies to Linux, not to Unix. The symbolic link of /bin to /usr/bin only exits in current Unix file system hierarchies. I just checked an AIX 5.3 system and a Solaris 10 system, both have this symbolic link.
Yes, I know some unix systems does it that way, but as I mentioned, it's not permitted under the FHS I think unix systems get away with it because they have virtually nothing in /usr/bin, they stick just about everything in /opt, don't they. So they can still have a small root partition, even while including /usr Anders -- Madness takes its toll -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Anders Johansson wrote:
On Monday 07 January 2008 20:35:02 Bill Anderson wrote:
The FHS document applies to Linux, not to Unix. The symbolic link of /bin to /usr/bin only exits in current Unix file system hierarchies. I just checked an AIX 5.3 system and a Solaris 10 system, both have this symbolic link.
Yes, I know some unix systems does it that way, but as I mentioned, it's not permitted under the FHS
I don't know of a Unix distribution that abides by FHS. As I mentioned before, Unix tends to use hard links rather than symbolic links. A perfect example is vi, ex, edit, and vedit are all hard links to the same inode.
I think unix systems get away with it because they have virtually nothing in /usr/bin, they stick just about everything in /opt, don't they. So they can still have a small root partition, even while including /usr
That was the intent, but it doesn't seem to old in practice. With AIX, a lot of stuff gets put in the lpp directory with symbolic links from other directories to the lpp directory. I have also seen symbolic links in /usr/bin that point to /opt/bin. It was one of those ideas whose implementation fell short of expectations.
Anders
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Bill Anderson wrote:
Anders Johansson wrote:
On Monday 07 January 2008 20:35:02 Bill Anderson wrote:
The FHS document applies to Linux, not to Unix. The symbolic link of /bin to /usr/bin only exits in current Unix file system hierarchies. I just checked an AIX 5.3 system and a Solaris 10 system, both have this symbolic link.
Yes, I know some unix systems does it that way, but as I mentioned, it's not permitted under the FHS
I don't know of a Unix distribution that abides by FHS. As I mentioned before, Unix tends to use hard links rather than symbolic links. A perfect example is vi, ex, edit, and vedit are all hard links to the same inode.
That's because they have ALWAYS been the same executable. Even the earliest BSD systems (on which ex/vi first appeared), they have always been two personalities of the same executable. That's who Bill Joy wrote it.
I think unix systems get away with it because they have virtually nothing in /usr/bin, they stick just about everything in /opt, don't they. So they can still have a small root partition, even while including /usr
That was the intent, but it doesn't seem to old in practice. With AIX, a lot of stuff gets put in the lpp directory with symbolic links from other directories to the lpp directory. I have also seen symbolic links in /usr/bin that point to /opt/bin. It was one of those ideas whose implementation fell short of expectations.
Nothing in AIX should be regarded as typical on its own. It's a horrid perversion of BSD. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 The Sunday 2008-01-06 at 07:52 -0700, Bill Anderson wrote:
changes. For those of us who use UNIX, we are used to /bin being a symbolic link to /usr/bin, and a bunch of other symbolic links to reflect a change in the structure of the file system hierarchy.
That's not possible, because often the /usr directory is a separate partition, and this one will not mounted in emergency mode (when the root partition fails the initial fsck). - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4-svn0 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFHgkQ2tTMYHG2NR9URAkQ0AKCXtNAe5D9q9EzYU93H3db1KzL98ACfXUsx fwSUmPlnr0E+WXzpnDg8c4I= =87/o -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Carlos E. R. wrote:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1
The Sunday 2008-01-06 at 07:52 -0700, Bill Anderson wrote:
changes. For those of us who use UNIX, we are used to /bin being a symbolic link to /usr/bin, and a bunch of other symbolic links to reflect a change in the structure of the file system hierarchy.
That's not possible, because often the /usr directory is a separate partition, and this one will not mounted in emergency mode (when the root partition fails the initial fsck).
- -- Cheers, Carlos E. R.
Carlos, just take a look at the links on a Unix box. It is the same on AIX, HPUX, or Solaris. Bill Anderson WW7BA -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Sunday 06 January 2008 15:52, Bill Anderson wrote:
For those of us who use UNIX, we are used to /bin being a symbolic link to /usr/bin
I admit it's been a while (~1999) since I last used a Unix (not Linux)
machine, but back in the time when I did every single kind of Unix I knew
had /bin and /usr/bin in separate places. /bin (essential commands and at
least one shell) is required to be on the root file system, while /usr/bin
(most other commands) might be on another file system.
Having /bin as a symlink pointing to /usr/bin would defeat this strategy; you
could no longer have /usr on a separate file system / partition. Booting up
the system would fail because boot scripts would not be able to use /bin/sh,
for example.
This just raised my curiosity. Can somebody who actually has access to a
Solaris or AIX or HP-UX machine please shed some light on this? Are the major
Unix vendors really forcing /usr to be on the root file system?
For Linux, see also the File System Hierarchy (FHS) standard:
http://www.pathname.com/fhs/pub/fhs-2.3.html
CU
--
Stefan Hundhammer
Stefan Hundhammer wrote:
On Sunday 06 January 2008 15:52, Bill Anderson wrote:
For those of us who use UNIX, we are used to /bin being a symbolic link to /usr/bin
I admit it's been a while (~1999) since I last used a Unix (not Linux) machine, but back in the time when I did every single kind of Unix I knew had /bin and /usr/bin in separate places. /bin (essential commands and at least one shell) is required to be on the root file system, while /usr/bin (most other commands) might be on another file system.
Having /bin as a symlink pointing to /usr/bin would defeat this strategy; you could no longer have /usr on a separate file system / partition. Booting up the system would fail because boot scripts would not be able to use /bin/sh, for example.
This just raised my curiosity. Can somebody who actually has access to a Solaris or AIX or HP-UX machine please shed some light on this? Are the major Unix vendors really forcing /usr to be on the root file system?
For Linux, see also the File System Hierarchy (FHS) standard:
http://www.pathname.com/fhs/pub/fhs-2.3.html
CU
I work with Solaris and AIX on a regular basis, and /bin is a symbolic link to /usr/sbin. It was changed long before 1999. Most users fail to notice the difference, since ksh displays the logic path and not the physical path. For those interested, this was a hot topic of discussion back in the 80's. Bill Anderson WW7BA -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Bob S wrote:
Hello SuSE users,
While searching for files in /usr/bin I noticed something that seems odd to me. There is a folder in there named X11.
Yes, the /usr/bin/X11 DIRECTORY has been a standard path for well over 20 years now for all standard X11 utilities.
It is a link to the same folder. If you open it, it shows the exact same thing as /usr/bin. You can continue opening the X11 directory until you have a /usr/bin//X11/X11/X11/X11 file open on ad-infitum. They all show the exact same files and megabytes. What is this?
Because it's a symbolic link pointing back at itself... However, /usr/bin/X11 isn't supposed to be one....
Can somebody explain the purpose?
No, because /usr/bin/X11 is supposed to point at /usr/X11R6/bin. do the following: $ su password: # cd /usr/bin # rm X11 # ln ../X11R6/bin X11 # exit $ ls -al /usr/bin/X11 lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 12 2006-12-26 /usr/bin/X11 -> ../X11R6/bin
Bob S
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On Sun January 6 2008 14:53:36 Aaron Kulkis wrote:
No, because /usr/bin/X11 is supposed to point at /usr/X11R6/bin.
do the following:
$ su password: # cd /usr/bin # rm X11 # ln ../X11R6/bin X11 # exit $ ls -al /usr/bin/X11 lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 12 2006-12-26 /usr/bin/X11 -> ../X11R6/bin
That was true for 10.1, but for 10.3 you now have: lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 1 2007-12-29 13:23 /usr/bin/X11 -> . as explained by Christian. -- Carlos FL "It is not worth an intelligent man's time to be in the majority. By definition, there are already enough people to do that." - G. H. Hardy -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
01234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789 Bob S wrote:
While searching for files in /usr/bin I noticed something that seems odd to me. There is a folder in there named X11. It is a link to the same folder. If you open it, it shows the exact same thing as /usr/bin. You can continue opening the X11 directory until you have a /usr/bin//X11/X11/X11/X11 file open on ad-infitum. They all show the exact same files and megabytes. What is this? Can somebody explain the purpose?
It used to be that the X11 specific applications, includes, libraries, manpages and shared files were included under /usr/X11R6: ls /usr/X11R6 => bin, include, lib, man, share Now all of the X11 specific files have been merged into the 'generic' location: Old location New location /usr/X11R6/bin /usr/bin /usr/X11R6/include /usr/include /usr/X11R6/lib /usr/lib /usr/X11R6/man /usr/man /usr/X11R6/share /usr/share There were also the softlinks "before": /usr/X11 -> X11R6 /usr/bin/X11 -> ../X11R6/bin/ Now it seems all of the /usr/X11R6 directories are mostly empty and their contents have been moved to corresponding directories under /usr. I.e.: /usr/X11R6/{bin,include,lib,man,share} had their contents moved to /usr/{bin,include,lib,man,share} (respectively). The soft link "/usr/bin/X11" which used to point to where the X11 binaries were located (/usr/X11R6/bin), now points to their new location in "/usr/bin". So /usr/bin/X11 points to /usr/bin. (/usr/bin/X11 -> .) Anyone who used to use the path /usr/bin/X11 to invoke an x-app can use the same path and have it work. So /usr/bin/X11/xosview will still work (though xosview is now in /usr/bin). Anyone who used the X11 paths: /usr/X11R6/bin/xosview -or- /usr/X11/bin/xosview are out of luck and will find their scripts broken. I don't know why compatibility links were not added for those paths. I.e.: /usr/X11 -> X11R6 (same) /usr/X11R6/bin -> /usr/bin /usr/X11R6/include -> /usr/include /usr/X11R6/lib -> /usr/lib /usr/X11R6/man -> /usr/man /usr/X11R6/share -> /usr/share Perhaps this was an oversight or is a "bug"? Does anyone else know why the original X11 directories weren't turned into links to their new paths? point to their new locations. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
participants (17)
-
Aaron Kulkis -
Anders Johansson -
Bill Anderson -
Bob S -
Carlos E. R. -
Carlos F. Lange -
Cristian Rodríguez -
Dave Howorth -
jdd -
Linda Walsh -
M9. -
Pete Connolly -
Philipp Thomas -
Rajko M. -
Sloan -
Stefan Hundhammer -
Wolfgang Woehl