Per Jessen wrote:

Thomas Blasejewicz wrote:

...

actually I am trying to "get friendly" with Linux for about 2 years already, by now have used 5 different computers, numerous different HDDs and tried at least 10 different "versions" (SUSE, Debian, Fedora etc. etc.) and still cannot accomplish the simplest things (like for example switching the keyboard layout or using a floppy),

Using a floppy: "mount /dev/fd0 /mnt". I don't have an answer to your keyboard issue either, but it would be nice to know the answer, I agree.

Well, I have just added a couple of keyboard layouts to my freshly installed 11.2 system - switching between them (us-ch-da-el) with Ctrl-Alt-k works just fine. /Per -- Per Jessen, Zürich (8.2°C) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Thomas Blasejewicz wrote:

...

...

Using a floppy: "mount /dev/fd0 /mnt".

this does not do anything on my computer inserting a floppy does not do anything either

Okay, you need to do it in this order: 1) insert floppy 2) open shell and issue "mount /dev/fd0 /mnt". 3) "ls -l /mnt" will show to contents of the floppy. Alternatively open konqueror and point it to /mnt. This is assuming your floppy drive is connected as drive A. Otherwise I think it's /dev/fd1. When you do the mount, you'll here the drive go click.

...

switching between them (us-ch-da-el) with Ctrl-Alt-k works just fine.

It does not on my computer. The displayed flag changes - but not the KB behavior.

Weird - did you also install the appropriate language packs/software? I'm not sure if they are required, but I installed them. /Per -- Per Jessen, Zürich (10.2°C) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

There have been changes. I formatted the HDD and made a clean new installation using SUSE 11.2 Dolphin shows a FD icon on the left, but neither clicking on it or right-click -> open produced any effect. However: go /root/media/disk -> click on "disk" showed the content of the floppy (which I also could open) I added this "disk" to "places" -> hovering the mouse over disk showed its content. Fine. I was so happy that linux finally was so kind to recognize my floppy (also shows that my computer and FDD are NOT broken). BUT ... I turned off the computer for dinner. The next time I tried the same procedure (with the same FD!): I get NO ACCESS to the floppy (nothing else has changed!) And the folder (now there are three ->/root/media/disk + disk 1 [+ a USB external HDD which I HAD connected before, but is now disconnected) Now, what is this all about??? I do get error messages: 1) error occurred while accessing "PC Floppy Drive", the system responded: org.freedesktop.HAL.device: Volume already mounted Device: /dev/fd0 is already mounted or 2) Could not enter folder /media/disk (etc.) WHAT is the magic word I need to open my floppy now?

I think fstab used to contain an entry roughly like this:

/dev/fd0 /media/floppy auto noauto,user,sync 0 0

This would allow you to mount the floppy without root access.

/Per

I searched for that fstab file. There is no mentioning of floppy in it. Should I add the above line? What if I make a mistake? Then the whole system goes wacky? I would really appreciate, if these things could be done "automatically". Thomas -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Thank you for the advice, but ...

Well, it sounds like you've got it working, at least partially.

I still do not have access to that floppy. Since I could not find out yet, how to change the permissions under "properties -> permissions", the test with an edited file still has to be done. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

* Per Jessen [11-25-09 13:27]:

1) insert floppy 2) open shell 3) su root 4) "mount /dev/fd0 /mnt".

Won't #4 cause problems... rather mount /dev/fd0 /mnt/floppy -- Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA HOG # US1244711 http://wahoo.no-ip.org Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://counter.li.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

* Philip Dowie [11-25-09 14:54]:

...

...

1) insert floppy 2) open shell 3) su root 4) "mount /dev/fd0 /mnt".

Won't #4 cause problems... rather mount /dev/fd0 /mnt/floppy

how about mount /dev/fd0 /some/place/where/it/makes/sense/to/mount/the/floppy/to

that way it is made explicit that people have to think to use the instructions instead of blindly copy and pasting...

yes, better I suggested: mount /dev/fd0 /media/floppy -- Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA HOG # US1244711 http://wahoo.no-ip.org Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://counter.li.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Philip Dowie wrote:

...

...

...

...

1) insert floppy 2) open shell 3) su root 4) "mount /dev/fd0 /mnt".

Won't #4 cause problems... rather mount /dev/fd0 /mnt/floppy

how about mount /dev/fd0 /some/place/where/it/makes/sense/to/mount/the/floppy/to

that way it is made explicit that people have to think to use the instructions instead of blindly copy and pasting...

yes, better I suggested: mount /dev/fd0 /media/floppy

yes but that is still copy and pasteable!

perhaps then, in light of copy-pasteable instructions, we should make double sure the path exists..

mkdir -p /media/floppy

I still prefer instructions that make you think about what you are doing..

I agree, but in this case we've already gone past that point. Besides, the OP needed to access/mount a floppy - not much to think about. The mount point is also largely irrelevant (as long as you don't mount it on something you need (/home, /usr etc)). /media/floppy, /mnt, /some/place/where/it/makes/sense/to/mount/the/floppy/to will all work fine. /Per -- Per Jessen, Zürich (9.6°C) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

So, is that it? Do I have to reboot the computer every time I want to change the floppy?

No

I "just" want to use floppys. ALL computers I have seen/used over the past 25 years allowed me to do that - no questions asked. Do you know how to mount a CD? It's the same principle.

open a terminal of your choice. now let's say you have a directory tree in /media as such: /media | -->/DVD | -->/fd0 in the terminal, you do $ mount /dev/fd0 /media/fd0 That will mount the floppy now to UNmount $ umount /dev/fd0 then you can take a different disk and you put the different disk in and repeat above process. You're mileage may vary depending on your directory set up. I don't have a floppy drive so I just keep my /media empty and mount the dvd there on it's own.

With Linux (on this occasion, but I tried that many times with different versions of Linux before) I spent already DAYS to figure out how to achieve this little feat.

This is a very, very exhausting procedure!

I don't understand that. With the fine search tool out there called google, days learning how to mount a floppy is astounding. I see in your topic you say you're a beginner, and welcome to the land of Linux, but some research on your own isn't a bad thing. http://lmgtfy.com/?q=mounting+floppy+opensuse -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Thursday 26 Nov 2009 20:33:13 Per Jessen wrote:

Thomas Blasejewicz wrote:

...

...

Besides, the OP needed to access/mount a floppy - not much to think about.

Thank you for taking my side. Being able to "do just something" always seems to be a terrible crime in the Linux community. I have been scolded for that already many times ...

Thomas, I think you might be mistaken - in my experience, newbies might occasionally get scolded for not asking proper questions, or for not following instructions given, but never just for asking a question.

...

Well, there IS this path: /media/disk but Alt+F2 -> mount /dev/fd0 /media/disk does not do anything.

Right - because your /etc/fstab does not include the right configuration, a user is not allowed to mount the floppy drive. Seriously, just do the four steps I've outlined a couple of times, and it'll work.

...

If I click on the FD icon, that has been there (Dolphin) since the installation, I get the message the device is already mounted, but when I click on the "disk" icon, Dolphin tells me, it "cannot enter that folder".

I'm not familiar with doing this through the GUI, someone else might be able to help you with that.

...

So, is that it? Do I have to reboot the computer every time I want to change the floppy?

No. Something appears to be wrong with the way your GUI wants to access the floppy. Sorry, I can't help you with that.

...

I "just" want to use floppys. ALL computers I have seen/used over the past 25 years allowed me to do that - no questions asked.

As does Linux - follow the four steps I've outlined and it WILL work. Don't get hung up on wanting to do it _your_ way - if you follow my four steps, we'll be able to ascertain whether mounting the floppy does indeed work (not taking a possible hardware issue into account). Of course, we are assuming that the floppy-disk has been formatted with a file-system for which Linux has support (fat,vfat).

/Per

I think Michael's assertion that it "should just work" is correct. As the floppy disk option is already in Dolphin (i guess it should appear/disappear like the CD/DVD icon), you should be able to just click on it and it should display the file list of it. When you eject the floppy disk, it should allow the insertion of a new disk for viewing. I got exactly the same error in opensuse 11.1 so i think its a bug in dolphin's handling of the floppy disk icon. If you navigate to "/media/disk" in dolphin the you can see the disk contents so the process works in Dolphin. Also, if you then remove the disk, the directory of the disk remains (which may be a good thing if comparing diskettes). When Dolphin mounts a diskette by clicking the icon, it creates the folder to mount on it in "/media", a ".hal-mtab" file containing "/dev/fd0 1005 0 auto nosuid,nodev /media/disk" and a ".hal.mtab-lock" file time-stamped for the first mount in "/media" folder. Unfortunately when you eject the disk manually and input a different disk, dolphin does not do the "umount" operation, remove the mount folder or remove the ".hal-mtab" and ".hal-mtab-lock" files. At the minimum, Dolphin needs to issue a "umount" and delete the ".hal-mtab-lock" file to allow the successful insertion of a different diskette. To successfully use another diskette:- 1.load konsole 2."su" to root 3. cd to /media 4. type in "umount /dev/fd0" 5. remove ".hal*". 6. If you don't want to see the contents of the previous diskette or want to always use "/media/disk" as the mount point then remove the "/media/disk" folders. I think i've got that process correct but corrections welcome. This may not be a Dolphin problem, it may be a library it uses. regards Ian -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Friday 27 Nov 2009 09:09:30 Per Jessen wrote:

ianseeks wrote:

...

I think Michael's assertion that it "should just work" is correct.

I agree.

...

As the floppy disk option is already in Dolphin (i guess it should appear/disappear like the CD/DVD icon), you should be able to just click on it and it should display the file list of it. When you eject the floppy disk, it should allow the insertion of a new disk for viewing.

Yes, that sounds about right. If that does not work, I suggest opening a bugreport.

/Per

There was an existing bug that has been resolved as saying thats the way its supposed to work. I've created a new bug for it. Ian -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

* Jon Clausen [11-26-09 10:43]:

On Wed, 25 Nov, 2009 at 14:45:28 -0500, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

...

Won't #4 cause problems... rather mount /dev/fd0 /mnt/floppy

no.

see:

http://www.pathname.com/fhs/pub/fhs-2.3.html#MEDIAMOUNTPOINT and http://www.pathname.com/fhs/pub/fhs-2.3.html#MNTMOUNTPOINTFORATEMPORARILYMOU...

/mnt is for *temporary* mounts /media/* is where one should create more 'permanent' mountpoints like /media/cdrom /media/dvd /media/floppy etc...

One should particularly *not* use subdirectories under /mnt/ as mountpoints for anything.

I immediately amended my post suggesting /media rather than /mnt, but more immediate concern was using "/mnt" rather than a subdirectory knowing that "/mnt" held other sub-directory mount points. Sometime in my lengthy past I recall that type of mounting could cause contamination and confusion. I agree that /media should be used for removable devices and play-things but the "temporary" labeling of "/mnt" is rather convoluted. Everything under "/mnt" is *temporary*, just with pre-assigned labels. -- Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA HOG # US1244711 http://wahoo.no-ip.org Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://counter.li.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Thursday, 2009-11-26 at 11:10 -0800, John Andersen wrote:

On 11/26/2009 9:26 AM, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

...

I agree that /media should be used for removable devices and play-things but the "temporary" labeling of "/mnt" is rather convoluted. Everything under "/mnt" is *temporary*, just with pre-assigned labels.

Actually, I don't believe there is any basis for your claim that everything under /mnt is temporary.

Historically /mnt has been used for all manor of mounting operations that were external devices, or not part of the normal file system. There have been many things written about /mnt and mounting things, remote samba shares, NFS volumns, etc over releases of linux dating back years and to unix systems prior to that. Many recommend creation of sub-directories in /mnt for mounting specific items.

If anything is temporary, it is /media.

That is my thinking, too. I use directories under /mnt as mount points for things I mount manually, and leave /media for things automatically mounted by the desktop. I would consider an error using /mnt or /media directly without directories.

This is a recent invention meant for mounting things under the control of the Locally logged in console user, via auto-mount systems of one sort or another.

Right. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAksPFs8ACgkQtTMYHG2NR9XBggCgkr12mUvsMCHhHAs49oRwzYwF 9LIAnirUVyTRnR1XgjjcXy4ocRpI9we5 =hAjA -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

"Carlos E. R." writes:

I use directories under /mnt as mount points for things I mount manually, and leave /media for things automatically mounted by the desktop. I would consider an error using /mnt or /media directly without directories.

Agreed. I do the same here. Charles -- "It's God. No, not Richard Stallman, or Linus Torvalds, but God." (By Matt Welsh)

Patrick Shanahan wrote:

If you think about it, this arises from old habits. I still have ver 9.0 on disk and it does not have /mnt or /media (media is a fairly late arrival).

9.x almost certainly had a /mnt (as setup by the installer) too. My last two remaining 8.2 systems do. /Per -- Per Jessen, Zürich (5.6°C) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Thu, 26 Nov, 2009 at 12:26:40 -0500, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

* Jon Clausen [11-26-09 10:43]:

...

On Wed, 25 Nov, 2009 at 14:45:28 -0500, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

...

Won't #4 cause problems... rather mount /dev/fd0 /mnt/floppy

no.

<snip>

...

One should particularly *not* use subdirectories under /mnt/ as mountpoints for anything.

I immediately amended my post suggesting /media rather than /mnt,

Indeed, and I did see that. It's just that I've seen /mnt/stuff/ used as basis for *permanent* mounts, which is just asking for trouble. Once I very nearly loopmounted an iso directly on /mnt/ on a system that was set up with /mnt/grpwise/ as permanent storage for GroupWise. Fortunately tab-completion expanded the path before I hit enter... but since then I've always made a point of pointing out that *nothing* even remotely permanent should exist under /mnt, ever. And so I think it's worth discouraging the practise of using/creating subdirectories under /mnt/ every opportunity I get, for the simple reason that: One never knows if someone else is going to mount something else on /mnt/ right in the middle of whatever-one's-doing.

but more immediate concern was using "/mnt" rather than a subdirectory knowing that "/mnt" held other sub-directory mount points. Sometime in my lengthy past I recall that type of mounting could cause contamination and confusion.

Exactly: contamination, confusion, bad things... My take on the matter is simple: If /mnt/subdir/ is mounted, then the system is not going to protest if you mount something else on /mnt/ directly (provided nothing is actually acessing any files in there, in that instant ;), but /mnt/somedir/ is going to be 'gone' for the duration. If /mnt/ is mounted and you try to mount something else there, the system *will* protest. If there is a need to mount more than one 'temporary' medium at a time, then IMHO it's much more appropriate to create the neccessary mountpoints somewhere else.

I agree that /media should be used for removable devices and play-things but the "temporary" labeling of "/mnt" is rather convoluted. Everything under "/mnt" is *temporary*, just with pre-assigned labels.

As I read it, FHS says that anything under /mnt/ should be an object inside whatever filesystem/medium that happens to be mounted there at the time. /jon -- YMMV -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

********************* here is the "bash output" (I did not "bash" anybody ...):

thomas@linux-b0l6:~> su root Password: linux-b0l6:/home/thomas # mount /dev/fd0 mnt mount: mount point mnt does not exist

you need the /

linux-b0l6:/home/thomas # mount /dev/fd0 media/floppy mount: mount point media/floppy does not exist

linux-b0l6:/home/thomas # $ mount /dev/fd0 /media/fd0 If '$' is not a typo you can use command-not-found to lookup the package that contains it, like this: cnf $ linux-b0l6:/home/thomas # mount /dev/fd0 /media/fd0 mount: mount point /media/fd0 does not exist

should be /media/floppy directory does not exist

linux-b0l6:/home/thomas # unmount /dev/fd0 Error: Try the command: umount linux-b0l6:/home/thomas # unmount Error: Try the command: umount linux-b0l6:/home/thomas # *********************

it told you twice to exclue the 'n'

Definitely I am too stupid to look out of the window, but I believe I followed all the instructions given 1) insert floppy 2) open shell 3) su root 4) mount /dev/fd0 /mnt (-> including suggested variations)

(By the way: I don't have any problems with USB sticks, CDs etc.)

Now that's interesting.

On a different list somebody kindly told me: "You won't get that kind of hassle-free experience with Linux. It's not the Linux way. Get used to it." So much for user friendliness.

they are lying and don't have a clue. Somewhere something is going wrong w/ mounting a floppy. If you would like to email me off list and have an instatne messenger like AIM or yahoo I'll try to go through this with you step by step.

Thank you for the hint. By now I know I am too stupid for this thing, but as a feeble excuse in my defense: I did go through the official documentation (no mentioning of mounting a floppy drive, or formatting a floppy disk as far as I can see) = about 5 guide books, put together about 1,000 pages. Downloaded other ebooks/instructions (several 500-1,000-page volumes!) pertaining to Linux and checked there; the link Mr. Dunsavage provided takes me back to SUSE 9 or earlier versions; I have been looking through various foren, mailing lists, internet articles ... you name it.

the simple command would be #> mount /dev/fd0 /mountpoint. if you needed to specify filesystem it would be: #> mount -t filesystem /dev/fd0 /mountpoint

And all this business about floppys ... this is "just" ONE example of many things I cannot get to work. I am spending so much time on this particular problem out of principle: I WANT to get it to work. If I can solve THIS "problem", MAYBE I might even make progress with all the other "little problems" I have. At the moment this seems to be utterly hopeless. Am I really supposed to believe that it "simply works" for everybody else??

Something's not right somewhere. And we're missing something. I hate to see someone run away from Linux on a simple mount problem. You're getting to worked up. we must all be missing something somewhere. Like I said before if you'd like to contact me off list I'll go through step by step in real time with you and we can figure this out. Mounting a disk is no harder than mounting a CD or DVD. Are you getting an error and what is the file system on the disk? -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Fri November 27 2009 1:49:37 pm Thomas Blasejewicz wrote:

Instructions I previously got on this list pertaining to the topic:

1) insert floppy 2) open shell 3) su root 4) mount /dev/fd0 /mnt

<snip>

linux-b0l6:/home/thomas # mount /dev/fd0 /media/fd0 mount: mount point /media/fd0 does not exist

Thomas, you're a PhD, but that doesn't make you a Linux expert, or even a computer expert. However, I used to teach Linux as a subject in college and I assure you, not only is it possible to learn, it is MUCH better than Windoze, despite your current experience. I'm retired now and suffered a stroke, but I still have enough computer skills to perhaps be of value to you if you wish. The above 2 lines tell me fairly precicely what your problem is; specifically, " /media/fd0 does not exist", which means there is no directory, eg, mountpoint, with that name YET in existance. It is my opinion that your title of PhD has made people *think* your education is in an area of expertise that qualifies you as an expert in Linux. You could be an astro-physics theorist, but totally devoid of knowledge of LInux, and that escapes many lesser educated people. Like in many fields of knowledge, many people *assume* anyone tackling a subject like Linux has all the 'basics' already under their belt. As a former teacher, I know better.

Definitely I am too stupid to look out of the window, but I believe I followed all the instructions given 1) insert floppy 2) open shell 3) su root 4) mount /dev/fd0 /mnt (-> including suggested variations)

Missing in all the instructions I have seen given to you previously is to INSURE THAT THE "<mountpoint>" directory EXISTS, and if not, to create it before attempting the above steps. To the experienced Linux/DOS person, that may seem obvious, but to someone that used Windoze previously, it might not be so obvious. All the 'folders' you see in Windoze are in reality, just pictorial representations of directory locations in/on your disk drive file structure. Windoze used to automatically create a 'folder' for some devices, such as a floppy and cdrom and such. As technology advanced, floppy disk drives for the most part are no longer included in or on most hardware by default and newer operating systems, including Linux, tend to support them less well/automatically than before. Couple that with the fact that the floppy hardware never has really cooperated by generating 'signals' to the operating system that say "I am a new diskette" or "I am now empty" or such, some things are more difficult to automate and tend not to be done in newer OS's. One side effect of this is that way too many people either are too young to remember floppy disk (management) or are so old as to *assume* that everyone already knows the "obvious". I am more than willing to work with you to try and help you over this small hump. I would suggest working in private UNTIL you solve the problem and *then*, you should publish the solution you came up with in the forum showing the original problem and your solution to it. In that way, others will get the help you (as yet) haven't received sufficiently and hopefully, correctly worded, will remind those that provided (incomplete) help, that sometimes they shouldn't assume that a PhD is fluent in Linux basics, rather, might just hold a doctorate in some other studies.

On a different list somebody kindly told me: "You won't get that kind of hassle-free experience with Linux. It's not the Linux way. Get used to it." So much for user friendliness.

There are dunderheads in any field, Linux included, Computers in general, any specific distro most definitely, but there are dozens of times more people that genuinely *are* friendly and willing to help if you give them a chance.

--

Richard -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Fri November 27 2009 3:00:49 pm Per Jessen wrote:

Richard Creighton wrote:

...

...

Definitely I am too stupid to look out of the window, but I believe I followed all the instructions given 1) insert floppy 2) open shell 3) su root 4) mount /dev/fd0 /mnt

Missing in all the instructions I have seen given to you previously is to INSURE THAT THE "<mountpoint>" directory EXISTS, and if not, to create it before attempting the above steps. To the experienced Linux/DOS person, that may seem obvious,

I left it out because /mnt is always created on an openSUSE installation. Probably most other distros too, it is _the_ standard mount point after all. Besides, even it had been removed, "mount /dev/fd0 /mnt" will give you a really sensible error message.

Per, Your instructions might have worked or provided an error message, but look again at what he provided:

linux-b0l6:/home/thomas # mount /dev/fd0 /media/fd0 mount: mount point /media/fd0 does not exist

For whatever reason, he attempted to mount to /media/fd0 and that directory did not exist, a really sensible error message. Why he chose that over /mnt is an entirely separate discussion, probably related to the earlier provided links to the wiki which "explains" the various system directories including /mnt and /media which both are rather ambigious as to what is "temporary" and not. Personally, if it is removable media, I use /media, if it is 'semi-permanent', eg, NFS or loop mounted or appears in fstab but not as automatically mounted at boot, I use /mnt/<subdirectory-tree> as appropriate because while temporary, they are persistant until I umount or reboot and generally are unaffected by the automount. So, while you are right that /mnt probably would have shown an error had he used it and failed, that isn't what he showed and nowhere did I see anyone indicate the destination mountpoint should explicitly be verified as existant. -- Richard -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Fri November 27 2009 5:34:40 pm Per Jessen wrote:

Richard Creighton wrote:

...

So, while you are right that /mnt probably would have shown an error had he used it and failed, that isn't what he showed and nowhere did I see anyone indicate the destination mountpoint should explicitly be verified as existant.

Hi Richard - the reason being that there is no such requirement. 'mount' will verify for it for you, so why bother doing it yourself?

Hi Per, Yes, 'mount' will verify its existance IF the mount was successful, but re-reading this thread several times leads me to believe there are 2 issues here. First, with the manual mount; Does the <mountpoint> exist? and when the mount fails, the mount command doesn't truly confirm the reason, only gives you a clue to verify it, IMO, no harm in being sure. Second, following the thread, the automount issue *appears* to be involved and *appears* to be *trying* to work. It also appears the OP is using KDE4 and may not have the latest fixes to the reported bugs, non-the-less, it appeared to on one occasion, effect the mount but when the machine was turned off and rebooted, I have to assume that the original FD media was NOT properly unmounted or removed first (prior to shutdown or reboot) and I have seen cases where the automounter gets totally confused with USB devices and I would assume the same could happen with FDx media as well. Unlike a few that poo-poo the manual/CLI tests, when trying to debug hardware related issues, the CLI is your friend, and as the OP appears to be using KDE4, it is all the more valuable to bypass KDE4 initially because as great as its potential may be, it still has a lot of issues related to hardware issues and knowing that the hardware *can* work goes a long way in determining if it is even possible for KDE or *any* DE to succeed. A CLI is the most direct way to answer that question. Once that answer is obtained, *then* you address the DE, be it KDE, Gnome or whichever. I do believe that a MANUAL mount to test the physical hardware is instructive, that any reference to the /dev/fd0 in /fstab should NOT be present if the automounter is to have a chance to work correctly AND, with the drive empty, any references to /media/fdN or /media/floppy should be removed preemtively. Run the tests Per suggested, the way he suggested and determine IF the FD actually works. Don't forget to UNMOUNT the media and remove it when finished with the test. eg, "umount /dev/fd0" without the quotes (as root) Repeat the test if you like to ensure it wasn't a fluke. THEN: Insert the FD media, see if it shows up in Dolphin or wherever, and see if you can see/manipulate the files on the diskette. BE SURE that it is properly 'ejected' prior to removing or shutdown or even logoff. Probably this is effected by RIGHT-CLICKING on the FLOPPY ICON in PLACES or possibly in whatever filemanager you are using and selecting 'eject' or 'safe removal' or some such. There may not be a separate icon to eject the media. Then, remove the media from the drive. I really believe it should work without the hassle, but with a USB drive I have, several actually, if I reboot without disconnecting the USB drive first, the automounter creates *another* /media/diskN entry leaving the first entry /media/disk in place and unattached to anything. It FUs Crashplan that is looking for the original /media/disk/backup/nnnnnnn directory so I either have to manually unplug the USB drive, erase the /media/diskn entries and replug the drive, OR I have to tell Crashplan where to actually look for the backup directories. I feel the FDisk drives may suffer similar bugs in the automounter. The manual tests would help determine if the hardware is capable of working, and the diddle-farting with the /media/<fdx> directories might shed a clue about the automounter operation IMO. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Fri November 27 2009 6:15:45 pm Anders Johansson wrote:

On Fri, 2009-11-27 at 18:09 -0500, Richard wrote:

...

Unlike a few that poo-poo the manual/CLI tests, when trying to debug hardware related issues, the CLI is your friend,

I was just reading through the thread, and I don't see mention of the GUI having been tried at all. The OP mentioned it was one of the things he didn't know how to do, and people started talking about mounting from the command line immediately. At no point that I could find did anyone ask what had been tried

On Wednesday, the OP posted the following: <quote>

There have been changes. I formatted the HDD and made a clean new installation using SUSE 11.2 Dolphin shows a FD icon on the left, but neither clicking on it or right-click -> open produced any effect. However: go /root/media/disk -> click on "disk" showed the content of the floppy (which I also could open) I added this "disk" to "places" -> hovering the mouse over disk showed its content. </quote>

Sorta sounds like he was using a GUI to me...or is there a command line caled "Places" that he could hover over and I wasn't aware that Dolphin was a CLI command....thought it brought up a GUI disk manager?

...

I do believe that a MANUAL mount to test the physical hardware is instructive,

and I believe it is counter productive. It gives the wrong impression of the modern state of linux - reflected as well in the rant sent later by the OP, where he states that he has *only* received such replies from all lists he has tried.

He said it DID NOT WORK so the GUI didn't work for him so a MANUAL method of finding out why was in order.

It is my opinion that beginners should be shown the GUI method first, the command line is for when they graduate from that level and have become better acquainted with their systems

...

that any reference to the /dev/fd0 in /fstab should NOT be present if the automounter is to have a chance to work correctly

Not only that, hal will completely ignore any drives which have entries in fstab

Which is why I suggested in later posts that the final solution involves ensuring /fstab has no mention of /dev/fdX in it

Anders

No one suggests that the CLI is the final solution, but a TOOL to find out where the problem lies and THEN find the solution as to why the GUI failed. Richard -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Fri November 27 2009 6:37:45 pm Anders Johansson wrote:

On Fri, 2009-11-27 at 18:31 -0500, Richard wrote:

...

On Wednesday, the OP posted the following: <quote>

...

There have been changes. I formatted the HDD and made a clean new installation using SUSE 11.2 Dolphin shows a FD icon on the left, but neither clicking on it or right-click -> open produced any effect. However: go /root/media/disk -> click on "disk" showed the content of the floppy (which I also could open) I added this "disk" to "places" -> hovering the mouse over disk showed its content.

</quote>

Sorta sounds like he was using a GUI to me

I missed that one. It's a long thread.

...

He said it DID NOT WORK so the GUI didn't work for him so a MANUAL method of finding out why was in order.

Actually, if you read what he said again, he said it DID work. He was able to see the contents of the floppy, so the problem here isn't that the floppy wasn't mounted - if he could see it under /media/disk it must have been - it was that dolphin didn't show it when clicking on the button.

I don't see how this can be investigated with the mount command

Anders

Read a little further till you see where he said it worked in the GUI until he rebooted then NOTHING WORKED. That is when Per and others suggested 'mount' and other CLI tests to see what was going on. They were NOT suggesting the CLI as a permanent solution, but the answers the OP would provide would be the EYES for Per and others to enable them to see into the machine and find out what is happening and why the GUI wasn't working after the reboot. Mount is a logical first step, because even the automounter MOUNTS the device and if it had, it would be visible with that CLI command and the basis for additional troubleshooting, possibly not possible from within the GUI tools. I don't understand your fear of the CLI. Are you afraid of giving the POWER to mere Windoze converts? Richard -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Anders Johansson wrote:

On Fri, 2009-11-27 at 18:09 -0500, Richard wrote:

...

Unlike a few that poo-poo the manual/CLI tests, when trying to debug hardware related issues, the CLI is your friend,

I was just reading through the thread, and I don't see mention of the GUI having been tried at all. The OP mentioned it was one of the things he didn't know how to do, and people started talking about mounting from the command line immediately.

Speaking for myself, I tried to solve his problem, yes. He needed to mount a floppy, and I told him how.

It is my opinion that beginners should be shown the GUI method first,

The issue is that over the course of more than a week, no-one really tried that. I can't, I don't rely on the GUI for things like mounting disks. /Per -- Per Jessen, Zürich (7.2°C) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On 11/27/2009 12:23 PM, Anders Johansson wrote:

Certainly not. All you really have to do is click on the "places" entry called Floppy, when the floppy disk is inserted. There should be no need to go to the command line at all

Exactly! There are far too many old-schoolers weighing in on this thread with advice from a bygone era, and totally ignoring Thomas' problem. He clearly started the thread with the word Beginner. So why does everyone insist on giving advice from the 80's and 90's when his problem is clearly that of a new user using a current version, ALL OF WHICH supported some form of auto-mount daemon, where NONE of these old-school methods are needed or desired. We should be helping Thomas find out why his machine does not detect this floppy automatically instead of dragging him back to the Pleistocene.

I haven't followed this thread, but it would surprise me if no one has mentioned this

I don't actually have a floppy drive in my machines anymore, so I can't verify that it really works in 11.2, but if it doesn't it is a bug which should be reported

I do. It works. Open Dolphin, slap a floppy in the drive and wait a second or four and the Volume name of the floppy appears in Places. Click it to brows the floppy, Right click it to safely remove. Eject, rinse, repeat. The Device Notifier (if present in the taskbar) also pops up when each disk is inserted, also offering options to open with Dolphin, or eject. The system tries to read the directory of each drive inserted, even before the drive appears in Dolphin. If that directory is corrupted, you hear the floppy drive grind and grind, but nothing shows up in either Dolphin or the Device Notifier. That means the diskette is unreadable (maybe infected) or formatted in a way not understood, or beyond the capabilities of the drive in use. (Not all floppys are physically capable of reading all diskettes). But please, people stop with the command line incantations. Thomas doesn't need to know exactly how to hold the buggy whip. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Wednesday 25 November 2009 15:23:06 Thomas Blasejewicz wrote:

There have been changes. I formatted the HDD and made a clean new installation using SUSE 11.2 Dolphin shows a FD icon on the left, but neither clicking on it or right-click -> open produced any effect. However: go /root/media/disk -> click on "disk" showed the content of the floppy (which I also could open) I added this "disk" to "places" -> hovering the mouse over disk showed its content.

Fine. I was so happy that linux finally was so kind to recognize my floppy (also shows that my computer and FDD are NOT broken).

BUT ... I turned off the computer for dinner. The next time I tried the same procedure (with the same FD!): I get NO ACCESS to the floppy (nothing else has changed!) And the folder (now there are three ->/root/media/disk + disk 1 [+ a USB external HDD which I HAD connected before, but is now disconnected) Now, what is this all about???

I do get error messages: 1) error occurred while accessing "PC Floppy Drive", the system responded: org.freedesktop.HAL.device: Volume already mounted Device: /dev/fd0 is already mounted

or 2) Could not enter folder /media/disk (etc.)

WHAT is the magic word I need to open my floppy now?

...

I think fstab used to contain an entry roughly like this:

/dev/fd0 /media/floppy auto noauto,user,sync 0 0

This would allow you to mount the floppy without root access.

/Per

I searched for that fstab file. There is no mentioning of floppy in it. Should I add the above line? What if I make a mistake? Then the whole system goes wacky? I would really appreciate, if these things could be done "automatically". Thomas

Interesting. What does a plain "mount" give you? it should give you all file systems already mounted. my system gives this: rikard@blip:~/Desktop> mount /dev/sda3 on / type xfs (rw) /proc on /proc type proc (rw) sysfs on /sys type sysfs (rw) debugfs on /sys/kernel/debug type debugfs (rw) udev on /dev type tmpfs (rw) devpts on /dev/pts type devpts (rw,mode=0620,gid=5) /dev/sda1 on /boot type ext2 (rw,acl,user_xattr) fusectl on /sys/fs/fuse/connections type fusectl (rw) securityfs on /sys/kernel/security type securityfs (rw) rpc_pipefs on /var/lib/nfs/rpc_pipefs type rpc_pipefs (rw) and a few others i have omited... yours SHOULD provide where the /dev/fd0 is mounted. As an example: rikard@blip:~/Desktop> mount (Lots of info, but look for something similar to the next line) /dev/fd0 on /media/floppy type vfat (rw,user,acl) rikard@blip:~/Desktop> cd /media/floppy rikard@blip:~/media/floppy> ls directory1 file1.txt file2.doc I hope this explains it a bit more clearly. -- /Rikard Johnels

Clayton wrote:

...

...

actually I am trying to "get friendly" with Linux for about 2 years already, by now have used 5 different computers, numerous different HDDs and tried at least 10 different "versions" (SUSE, Debian, Fedora etc. etc.) and still cannot accomplish the simplest things (like for example switching the keyboard layout or using a floppy),

Using a floppy:  "mount /dev/fd0 /mnt".

I haven't had a computer with a floppy drive in many years, but... shouldn't HAL take care of it.. that is, you pop in the floppy and it's automounted just like a CD/DVD or USB drive? You shouldn't need to manually mount the floppy device anymore... should you?

A floppy drive does not produce an interrupt when a floppy is put in, which means something would have to poll it regularly - that makes a well known noise. /Per -- Per Jessen, Zürich (7.9°C) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 11/20/2009 04:09 PM, Thomas Blasejewicz wrote:

...

...

Using a floppy: "mount /dev/fd0 /mnt".

I haven't had a computer with a floppy drive in many years, but... shouldn't HAL take care of it.. that is, you pop in the floppy and it's automounted just like a CD/DVD or USB drive? You shouldn't need to manually mount the floppy device anymore... should you?

I thought so too, but ... The above command does not work and inserting a floppy does not work either.

Then your computer is broken. Or you have one of those portables with a non standard floppy drive or something. Look on the log to find error messages at the time you issue the command. Look up in the boot log to see any messages related to the floppy drive. Try hwinfo to see if it says anything related to the floppy.

Somewhere in the documentation it said: "Linux prevents the user from using FDDs "for secrurity reasons" ...

That simply means that mounting is normally reserved to root, but root can give permissions, and modern desktops can mount external media. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.2-ex-factory "Emerald" GM) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.12 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAksHxQ8ACgkQU92UU+smfQU74QCgibT70UQ3+ufhYXZkis1p5DeA gecAoIDiRA3SK7HUAUTM91Y3zwBtHaSX =4vZI -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

* John Andersen [11-23-09 09:55]:

(I'd still like to configure Device Notifier for other actions. Anyone know where this is done? )

I have added an action for CompactFlash cards here: ~/.kde4/share/apps/solid/actions Default configuration tool is as *should* be expected, the "System Settings" dialog, "Personal Settings (Configure Desktop)" in the main menue, --> Advanced --> Device Actions. -- Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA HOG # US1244711 http://wahoo.no-ip.org Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://counter.li.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

...

...

...

actually I am trying to "get friendly" with Linux for about 2 years already, by now have used 5 different computers, numerous different HDDs and tried at least 10 different "versions" (SUSE, Debian, Fedora etc. etc.) and still cannot accomplish the simplest things (like for example switching the keyboard layout or using a floppy),

Using a floppy:  "mount /dev/fd0 /mnt".

I haven't had a computer with a floppy drive in many years, but... shouldn't HAL take care of it.. that is, you pop in the floppy and it's automounted just like a CD/DVD or USB drive?  You shouldn't need to manually mount the floppy device anymore... should you?

 It sure used to work that way...at least it did in SuSE 7.3 (my first Linux, back in '00). Seems like things are going backward if a simple floppy drive has to be mounted manually today when it worked automatically 9 years ago.

That's what I remember too... I remember back in SUSE 6.x days that I had to manually mount the floppy... I'm pretty sure I remember, but I'm getting old, so you never know.. something changed with a release in the 7.x timeframe, and floppies were automounted... it wasn't long after that though, I removed the floppy drives from all my computers... so I can't even experiment with it anymore (the drives are long gone/lost). That said, the manual mount command should work. Hmmm.. thinking about this... is it possible that the automount thing will work if you (I can't remember if the OP is using KDE or Gnome... so assuming KDE4) you insert the floppy, open Dolphin (KDE4 file manager), and click the Floppy icon in the Places (on the left)... shouldn't the floppy be mounted at that point... without needing to resort to manual mount commands? C. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 11/20/2009 11:28 AM, Clayton wrote:

...

Using a floppy: "mount /dev/fd0 /mnt".

I haven't had a computer with a floppy drive in many years, but... shouldn't HAL take care of it.. that is, you pop in the floppy and it's automounted just like a CD/DVD or USB drive? You shouldn't need to manually mount the floppy device anymore... should you?

Yes, and it works fine. I'm using gnome, so I insert a floppy, wait a bit, nothing. I open a nautilus window, see the floppy entry on left pane, click on it, it prompts for root password, give it, disk mounted and content is visible. I don't know why it asks for root's password, though. Bug? Feature? - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.2-ex-factory "Emerald" GM) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.12 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAksHw7QACgkQU92UU+smfQVXYgCfdGKo0hs0XNtjyw0qzWJAkWZD 1a0AmwTpFenuFgPt1o+wBgssEx6PWPW0 =swVF -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org