Hi David... Thank you very much for your generous explanation. I'll take care of it for the nexttime. === On Thu, 24 Sep 2009 17:15:55 +0100 David Bolt wrote:

On Thursday 24 September 2009 16:48:53 Ricky Tompu Breaky wrote:

...

Hi, JB2.

Please tell me, what do you mean about "top-post"? I don't understand. Please give me another vocab or even explanation.

Top-posting is where you post your reply above the text you're replying to. This is a bad idea because it means that the reader has to scroll up and down to get the context for your reply, and also the top-poster generally doesn't snip out the bits that aren't being replied to.

Top-posting is a little worse than bottom posting, where the posted does almost the exact same thing, except they scroll to the very bottom of the mail and start typing their reply. As with the top-poster, they generally don't bother to snip out any bits that they aren't replying to.

The preferred method for the openSUSE lists, and many many others, is to reply inline. This is done by snipping out the bits of text that you aren't replying to, leaving just enough text to provide the context, and then adding replying to each specific points straight after the quoted text.

As for a fuller explanation, you can find one here:

URL:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posting_style

Regards, David Bolt

-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Peter Nikolic wrote:

Top posting is exactly what you have just done ... post your comment ABOVE which makes it hard to follow the flow of the article.

Please don't go on about putting the most recent information first. Those who have read previous emails have no problem following the flow and seeing it repeated ad infinitum/ad nauseum, is just mind numbing. Besides...you are forcing people with disabilities to work harder -- think of blind people having to read through scads of repeated text until they get to the new content. Learn the essentials of writing. The important stuff goes first. Email is not a journal nor a "story", it's a discussion, where I put my answer first, and you put yours first in response. I don't need to reread what I just wrote to you, nor what I just read in the previous email. It's also hard on people who have RSI -- or at least it is for me, as it requires moving over to the scroll bar to scroll down -- or to do "something" to get to the real content. This archaic nonsense by militant hardliners has got to go. It doesn't make sense in any professional setting nor personal setting. It only makes sense if one is trying to build a story -- or a record that can be read from start to finish -- but that's not what email is about. It's about communication -- it wasn't designed to be a "log book". If you want logging, look at the previous emails. With any any half-way decent mail reader, threads are indented and with a neat addon (threadvis,threadvis.mozdev.org), you can see my point: conversations are not linear -- making the whole point of attempting 'journal' ordering pointless and misleading. I attached the image of this discussion -- it's spaghetti! Your post is the one farthest to the right. There were two other posts in between the post you responded to and you. You really should try out T-Bird. Works just fine on linux. BTW, I 'bottom' posted, because in this case, it made 'sense'. I responded to a short quote of what you said, but when people included pages of previous text, and add a few lines at the bottom, they should be forced to listen to elevator music for days on end. linda

Patrick Shanahan wrote:

* Linda Walsh [09-25-09 09:06]:

...

Peter Nikolic wrote:

...

Top posting is exactly what you have just done ... post your comment ABOVE which makes it hard to follow the flow of the article.

---

Please don't go on about putting the most recent information first.

Which is disrespectful of your audience since the method of posting here *is* defined.

http://en.opensuse.org/OpenSUSE_mailing_list_netiquette -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Friday 25 September 2009 07:17:39 pm phanisvara das wrote:

that being said, there are valid reasons to use top or interleaved posting generally; exceptions may apply.

oops, meant to say "...there are valid reasons to use top or interleaved posting...," of course. -- phani. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Fri, Sep 25, 2009 at 9:59 AM, Marco Calistri wrote:

On Fri 25 Sep 2009 at 10:47:39 (-0300 UTC), phanisvara das wrote:

...

On Friday 25 September 2009 06:50:49 pm Dave Howorth wrote:

...

http://en.opensuse.org/OpenSUSE_mailing_list_netiquette

excerpt from the very beginning of the 'netiquette page':

----------------- Note: It is pointless to post an email that only warns about posting style.

New openSUSE email users will feel unwanted and go away, and that is exactly what we don't want. If you don't want to read an email, then just skip it. If you want to answer, but prefer the posting style described below, state that at the end and link to this article for explanation. -----------------

Oh my God! That's sounds like the teacher is learning from the student :-)

...

that being said, there are valid reasons to use top or interleaved posting generally; exceptions may apply.

IMO it's best to quote and post in a way that makes it easy to understand what's gong on, avoiding unnecessary clutter.

-- phani

Perfectly in agree with you Phani; it seems sometimes that "some "ancestral habits" are hard to die refusing new styles, independently if these were smarter,easier or not!

Significant mailing lists like the kernel lists prefer bottom posting because the emails are archived for extended periods and are treated as reference materials.  It is much easier to read a six month old email that is properly quoted and bottom posted than to read a top posted one (which I rarely see trimmed). So top posting is great for simple back and forth disposable communication.  It is not useful for communications that are treated as of archival value. I'm not sure where the opensuse mailing lists fit on that scale, but I suspect there is archival value, but if so why are they not made available through major list search sites like markmail.org. Even opensolaris is available there: http://markmail.org/search/?q=list%3Aopensolaris But nothing for opensuse: http://markmail.org/search/?q=list%3Aopensuse Note that markmail.org tracks about 7,000 mailing lists.  It has become my favorite site to search mailing lists due to its power and relative ease of use. My conclusion the netiquette rules for a list need to take into account the general level of communication on the list and its long term value. I participate on the lkml lists and they are clearly meant for archival purposes. I also participate on our local lug, and they clearly do not worry about the archival value of the communication. The opensuse lists seem to straddle the two worlds which makes it difficult. Many of the developers would like to see them treated by all as more formal. Many users treat them as very casual. I suspect that is the major reason we have so much culture clash on the opensuse lists in general. Greg -- Greg Freemyer -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Simon Roberts wrote:

Indeed, have those complaining (on either side of the fence) ever read Gulliver's Travels? And just which end do you open your boiled eggs?

I generally don't complain...but those who do complain do so loudly about the way opposite I prefer. So in DEFENSE, I'm starting to complain about their complaining and point out that it creates accessibility handicaps for many -- like someone posting on a blackberry? They are supposed to include a page of previous text? Get a clue and stop complaining about how others post. I tend to be a very tolerant person with one exception. I can't tolerate intolerance! !?! :-) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On 25 September 09, Duaine & Laura Hechler wrote: It was apparently a waste of my time defending you when you were down and the rest of the list ragged on you as if their panties would never unbunch from their cracks...now you act as if you've contracted 'stupid' too. Too bad. Like I said...looks like they came in a herd today. PLONK -- "Political Correctness is a doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical group of hand-wringing, bleeding-heart liberals, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end". -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Saturday 26 September 2009 04:22:45 Hans Witvliet wrote:

On Fri, 2009-09-25 at 15:08 -0500, JB2 wrote:

To all of you, Can you continue this discussion on the OT list.....

Please keep away from the OT list. This discussion is soo past. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Saturday, 2009-09-26 at 11:00 +0530, phanisvara das wrote:

...

Please keep away from the OT list. This discussion is soo past.

agreed. but where _is_ the OT list? couldn't find it at http://lists.opensuse.org/ ...

It is there, but not listed nor archived. You have to subscribe via email. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkq93UoACgkQtTMYHG2NR9WWvQCffNiijqMwlHvZRT/6EmsrT02G JEAAnAmQiuLJ+wAxlGGt7ItmIZoN768J =I95M -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Saturday, 2009-09-26 at 11:11 -0500, Rajko M. wrote:

...

agreed. but where _is_ the OT list? couldn't find it at http://lists.opensuse.org/ ...

It is opensuse-offtopic@opensuse.org . I'm still wondering why it was removed from the list on the wiki.

I don't know about the wiki, but I know it is not listed on http://lists.opensuse.org/ on purpose. Why? Dunno. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkq+YJIACgkQtTMYHG2NR9WODgCdERwPztbswbfMTvxFGx8UMs0C ZS8AoJkaniDjIPSnEFY6RAOOhyU9ccx1 =+Mnj -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Sunday, 2009-09-27 at 13:26 +0200, Sylvester Lykkehus wrote:

On 2009-09-26 20:42, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

I don't know about the wiki, but I know it is not listed on http://lists.opensuse.org/ on purpose. Why? Dunno. It is not listed there, because it is not being archived by opensuse. Why it is not being archived is another question, but the reasons seems fairly obvious - nothing of "importance" or related to opensuse should be posted there. I'm not sure though, you'll have to get a better answer from the mailing list admins.

As far as not archiving that mail list, I understand; the list admin said somthing about not wanting to, time ago. But why not including the name of the list and how to subscribe, as for the rest of the lists, I can't hink of a (valid) reason.

You can find archives of the offtopic list elsewhere though, such as archivum.info and mail-archive.com. It should be noted that most (all?) external sources stopped archiving the list in January 2009 (IIRC, there was a problem with the opensuse mailing list that unsubscribed a lot of people at that time, perhaps the external archives got unsubscribed too, and never re-subscribed)

Shame on them... it proves they don't admin properly. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkq/VB0ACgkQtTMYHG2NR9ViaQCfcuWqFQX93wPB6wfqoyvYUBTx HboAnA6ZtobGrbA4X7EDsiR+lMGbasEw =zfoo -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Sunday, 2009-09-27 at 08:22 -0500, Rajko M. wrote:

On Sunday 27 September 2009 07:01:25 Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

But why not including the name of the list and how to subscribe, as for the rest of the lists, I can't hink of a (valid) reason.

Me neither, except that template has link to archives and it is invalid for this list, so I added it at the end under Misc, without link to archives.

I wasn't thinking of the wiki, but of http://lists.opensuse.org - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkq/eYwACgkQtTMYHG2NR9X7qQCfcJjSSySA30ojp4cJqF76VXEW 2joAoJKg9DCGGYUv99sOtaEVjT1a9ne4 =E8qu -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

JB2 wrote:

On 25 September 09, Linda Walsh, another idiot in a growing one on this list, ^^^^^

If there's anyone who desperately needs to be plonked than it's people using the above words in discussions. Pit -- Dr. Peter "Pit" Suetterlin http://www.astro.su.se/~pit Institute for Solar Physics Tel.: +34 922 405 590 (Spain) P.Suetterlin@royac.iac.es +46 8 5537 8534 (Sweden) Peter.Suetterlin@astro.su.se -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Friday 25 September 2009 10:53:34 Linda Walsh wrote:

I tend to be a very tolerant person with one exception.

I can't tolerate intolerance!

!?! :-)

:) The whole thread was derailed by one off list posting by guy that ignores http://en.opensuse.org/OpenSUSE_mailing_list_netiquette from the very first paragraph that was quoted few mails earlier. I guess he laughs on us now; how easy is to make us start off topic discussion. -- Regards, Rajko People of openSUSE editor. Latest interviews: http://news.opensuse.org/category/people-of-opensuse/ About us: http://en.opensuse.org/People_of_openSUSE/About -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On 25 September 09, Simon Roberts top-posted like an ass just to show everyone up for some absurd reason:

Indeed

You're the second person I've ever plonked in 7 years on this list. If stupidity hurts, you must be in agony. PLONK -- "These Sarah Brady types must be educated to understand that because we have an armed citizenry, that a dictatorship has not happened in America. These anti-gun fools are more dangerous to Liberty than street criminals or foreign spies." - Theodore Haas, Dachau Survivor -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Fri, Sep 25, 2009 at 9:32 AM, Per Inge Oestmoen wrote:

Linda Walsh wrote:

...

Those who have read previous emails have no problem following the flow and seeing it repeated ad infinitum/ad nauseum, is just mind numbing.

I often ignore the posts of those who top post.

With top posting, a new reader has to read through much text in order to understand what it is all about.

With answers in a logical order following quoted parts of the text to which the reply is given, it becomes much easier.

Per Inge Oestmoen, Norway -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

I understand that it's the group policies, but at time when I am on my blackberry, I can't help top post. What bugs me are the people that harp on than, that see that people are willing to help no matter where they are. I argee with Per, that it better to answer in logical order than to post at the bottom so it easier to follow. -- ----------------------------------------- Discover it! Enjoy it! Share it! openSUSE Linux. ----------------------------------------- openSUSE -- http://en.opensuse.org/User:Terrorpup openSUSE Ambassador openSUSE Member skype -- terrorpup twitter -- terrorpup Identica -- terrorpup freenode(irc) -- terrorpup/lupinstein. friendfeed -- http://friendfeed.com/terrorpup Have you tried SUSE Studio? Need to create a Live CD, an app you want to package and distribute , or create your own linux distro. Give SUSE Studio a try. http://www.susestudio.com -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

ne... wrote:

On Fri, Sep 25, 2009 at 14:36, Chuck Payne wrote:

...

I understand that it's the group policies, but at time when I am on my blackberry, I can't help top post.

You do realize that you have the option of not posting right? I think instead of making excuses about what you post from, we all follow the netiquette for this list.

ne...

Actually I, as a firm bottom or interleave poster, accept things like this and people who have to use text-to-speech interfaces as reasonable excuses. I won't usually top-post _for_ them, unless the email is specifically directed at them, but I have no problem meeting them half way and reading their inconvenient posts bearing in mind that everything in inconvenient for them and all I have to do is read a post a little out of order. As someone else mentioned, one big reason top-posting is so bad is that it exhibits a lack of concern for anyone else but themselves. Well, I don't want to be guilty of that myself so if there is some reason a person can't, or can't easily, do anything but top-post, or can't quote as clearly as might be nice, well, I'd rather have them in the discussion and put up with the limitations of their blackberry or their text-to-speech software than not have them in the discussion. The ones who have no excuse but just insist on ignoring the requests because it doesn't make sense to _them_ and _they_ remember what _they_ wrote and so _they_ don't need to read anything but the new response without any context, those people I am perfectly happy to ignore and leave out of the discussion. They have shown themselves not to be very insightful thinkers and I doubt I should value many of their offerings. The insightful thinker who maybe comes to techy mail lists new, or who was simply not yet born when the basics of practical email protocol were worked out by smarter people that you or I, would ASK, "I don't understand the point of this rule. Why is it?" THAT is perfectly reasonable. That is a world of difference from the garbage Linda just spewed (and countless before and after her). Observing that some practice is "old" in no way implies that it is obsolete or no longer fits "todays world". Rather the opposite sometimes. Many "old" practices involving the internet were simply worked out very early on by the very smart people who then made up the entire population of the internet and it's precursors. Now the internet population basically reflects the general population, so of course by definition 90% of them, including 90-or-more% of those who complain about things like top-posting, are stupider and more ignorant than the elite class who developed those practices. -- bkw -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On 25 September 09, Frans de Boer wrote:

So harsh tones here from blah, blah, blah

I was right! This is a big herd today! I'm plonking idiots right and left! 7 years with only one moron being plonked by me and now suddenly a massive herd of idiots shows up. Is their food source drying up because of GW and they're migrating to find better pastures? The water source has dried up? Maybe NatGeo will look into it. Damn, too bad these morons aren't wild game and edible...I'd have my freezer filled for the winter already! PLONK -- The race card is the last refuge for a liberal scoundrel. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Per Inge Oestmoen wrote:

Linda Walsh wrote:

...

Those who have read previous emails have no problem following the flow and seeing it repeated ad infinitum/ad nauseum, is just mind numbing.

I often ignore the posts of those who top post.

With top posting, a new reader has to read through much text in order to understand what it is all about.

With answers in a logical order following quoted parts of the text to which the reply is given, it becomes much easier.

I agree......I very seldom will take the time to read anything that is top posted, as I consider the poster as inconsiderate. Fred -- A REVOLUTIONARY IDEA! 'Time to put Nana Pelosi in a home!' -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Monday 28 September 2009 07:36:08 pm Duaine & Laura Hechler wrote:

How much longer is this thread going to go on - I may have to invoke a filter to kill this thread.

it's been cooling down quite bit already. now we, you & i, are doing our part to keep it alive... -- phani. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Frans de Boer wrote:

I do agree with you, Linda, and it is only in technical discussions I have seen - sofare - this silly rule of bottom posting. Sometimes I just lose interest in an otherwise interesting discussion, just because of the pages of over and over digested responses. They cal it an netiquette, I call it outdated behavior and a washed of time and resources.

For example, how am I supposed to understand what you say when there is no context? As a newcomer to the discussion, I would have to wade through the text below in order to understand anything at all. It seems that those who insist on top posting ar incapable of understanding that there are others reading the messages beside themselves, or that they are not interested in making it easier for newcomers to a discussion to discover what it is about. Top posting indicates absent-mindedness and lack of concern for others. Per Inge Oestmoen, Norway

On Fri, 2009-09-25 at 06:05 -0700, Linda Walsh wrote:

...

Peter Nikolic wrote:

...

Top posting is exactly what you have just done ... post your comment ABOVE which makes it hard to follow the flow of the article.

---

Please don't go on about putting the most recent information first.

Those who have read previous emails have no problem following the flow and seeing it repeated ad infinitum/ad nauseum, is just mind numbing.

Besides...you are forcing people with disabilities to work harder -- think of blind people having to read through scads of repeated text until they get to the new content.

Learn the essentials of writing. The important stuff goes first. Email is not a journal nor a "story", it's a discussion, where I put my answer first, and you put yours first in response. I don't need to reread what I just wrote to you, nor what I just read in the previous email.

It's also hard on people who have RSI -- or at least it is for me, as it requires moving over to the scroll bar to scroll down -- or to do "something" to get to the real content.

This archaic nonsense by militant hardliners has got to go. It doesn't make sense in any professional setting nor personal setting. It only makes sense if one is trying to build a story -- or a record that can be read from start to finish -- but that's not what email is about. It's about communication -- it wasn't designed to be a "log book".

If you want logging, look at the previous emails. With any any half-way decent mail reader, threads are indented and with a neat addon (threadvis,threadvis.mozdev.org), you can see my point: conversations are not linear -- making the whole point of attempting 'journal' ordering pointless and misleading.

I attached the image of this discussion -- it's spaghetti! Your post is the one farthest to the right. There were two other posts in between the post you responded to and you. You really should try out T-Bird. Works just fine on linux.

BTW, I 'bottom' posted, because in this case, it made 'sense'. I responded to a short quote of what you said, but when people included pages of previous text, and add a few lines at the bottom, they should be forced to listen to elevator music for days on end. linda

-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Fri, 25 Sep 2009 23:55:36 Frans de Boer wrote:

Per, I agree that when you drop into a discussion halfway, you miss the context. However, where you there from the start, that rule does not apply anymore. Anybody joining a discussion halfway - be it verbal or otherwise - needs to exert a little more effort to catch up. Or just stay out of it.

Frans.

A. Because it messes up the flow of the conversation (and gives a reply without context). Q. Why is top posting wrong? :-) -- =================================================== Rodney Baker VK5ZTV rodney.baker@iinet.net.au =================================================== -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Brian K. White wrote:Rodney Baker wrote: Patrick Shanahan wrote: ...

(lots of marginally relevant stuff) ...

Why might bottom-posting be self-defeating? Why might bottom-posting be self-defeating? Why might bottom-posting be self-defeating? Why might bottom-posting be self-defeating? Why might bottom-posting be self-defeating? Why might bottom-posting be self-defeating? Why might bottom-posting be self-defeating? Why might bottom-posting be self-defeating? Why might bottom-posting be self-defeating? Why might bottom-posting be self-defeating? Why might bottom-posting be self-defeating? Why might bottom-posting be self-defeating? Why might bottom-posting be self-defeating? Why might bottom-posting be self-defeating? Why might bottom-posting be self-defeating? Why might bottom-posting be self-defeating? Why might bottom-posting be self-defeating? Why might bottom-posting be self-defeating? Why might bottom-posting be self-defeating? Why might bottom-posting be self-defeating? Why might bottom-posting be self-defeating? See? John Perry -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Jos van Kan wrote:

John E. Perry schreef:

...

Why might bottom-posting be self-defeating?

See?

Errrm... no.

OK, how about some illustration so even you can understand it -- a very brief glance at the archives shows these, which are not even among the worst offenses that I can recall: http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse/2009-09/msg00163.html http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse/2009-09/msg00221.html http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse/2009-09/msg00267.html http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse/2009-09/msg00549.html http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse/2009-09/msg00574.html All these messages contain dozens to hundreds of quoted lines, of which only a few are at all relevant; any editing has been done by previous, better behaved posters. Sometimes what you finally find at the end is worth reading; frequently not. I generally just dump a message that doesn't have a reply in the first dozen or so lines, unless I'm anxious for real help or information from the thread. Granted, opensuse's members are generally better behaved than many lists', but we have plenty of offenders here, too. It's really bad when you get a digest of a particularly poorly behaved list like gumstix-users. There are frequently thousands of lines in such a digest, almost all mindless quoting of something that has already been quoted several times in the current digest. But there are plenty of misbehavers here, too. And before you get started on me, I _do_ observe the list etiquette, even though I recognize the validity of Ms. Walsh's argument. I also recognize the validity of and bow to the community's desires. What do I, personally, like to see? In order: --inline posting, properly edited --bottom posting, properly edited <- this message, and Jos's --top posting --inline posting, sloppily edited. --inline posting, unedited. --bottom posting, sloppily edited --bottom posting, unedited Sometimes variations are appropriate among the first three. I find it hard to imagine a justification for any of the last four, but there are lots of them here. John Perry -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Per Inge Oestmoen wrote:

... Top posting is totally idiotic for anyone new to a discussion.

Top posting seems to indicate that the author does not care at all about new readers, or mindlessly assumes that everyone is familiar with all the details of the theme being discussed. ...

Or that anyone coming in halfway through a discussion will have to read the rest, anyway, so why burden active participants with a lot of text they've already read several times? Let new participants or those who need reminding scroll down and get the information. jp -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

In <4ABDC0F3.6010904@cox.net>, John E. Perry wrote:

What do I, personally, like to see? In order: --inline posting, properly edited --bottom posting, properly edited <- this message, and Jos's --top posting --inline posting, sloppily edited. --inline posting, unedited. --bottom posting, sloppily edited --bottom posting, unedited

My preferences are different: --inline posting, properly edited --inline posting, sloppily edited --bottom posting, properly edited --bottom posting, sloppily edited --top posting --inline posting, unedited --bottom posting, unedited The editing / trimming is the most important thing. If you take the time to do that, placing your text under its context is trivial. If you are going to waste everyone's bandwidth with a full-quote, at least don't waste my time having to scroll past it to see "Me, too!" -- Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. ,= ,-_-. =. bss@iguanasuicide.net ((_/)o o(\_)) ICQ: 514984 YM/AIM: DaTwinkDaddy `-'(. .)`-' http://iguanasuicide.net/ \_/

Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. wrote:

The editing / trimming is the most important thing. If you take the time to do that, placing your text under its context is trivial.

If you are going to waste everyone's bandwidth with a full-quote, at least don't waste my time having to scroll past it to see "Me, too!"

Which is precisely why I rate top-posting above poor or no editing jp -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Peter Van Lone wrote:

On Fri, Sep 25, 2009 at 12:01 PM, Brian K. White wrote: <snip>

...

I hate top-posting and think it's the most stupid broken practice ever.

<more snip>

more than anything else (certainly more than someone following or not following the conventions of a list or other community) it is persons holding every imaginable opinion with such fervor and "true belief" that causes the vast majority of problems:

here on the list, by spewing vitriol and anger and wasting our time with fighting about non-sense that is held to religiously

and in the larger society, as well ....

this line would have made laugh out loud -- had it not also made me want to cry ...

It sounds like you missed the point of that line. Which was not the line itself but the NEXT couple of lines, wherein I said that I top-post when the environment demands it, regardless of my personal views. Lets clarify that even more for the simple, _I_ was saying exactly the same thing that you just said, which is that my personal view doesn't really matter in that context and so it would be stupid to press it in that context, and so I don't. Maybe learn to read before attempting to comment on what you read? It's kind of unflattering to yourself say you disagree with something and then go on to say exactly the same thing. -- bkw -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Here is a good solution to this quandary... <snip>

...

Bla bla bla, some silly stuff about why it's right or wrong to top or bottom post...

A rebuttal or two...or fifty...some attempting to be helpful, others simply being snooty/haughty...neverless the sum of the two parts being as unhelpful as the parts individually...

<snip> Here is a good solution to this quandary... CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail, including any attached files, may contain confidential and privileged information for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any review, use, distribution, or disclosure by or to others is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient (or authorized to receive information for the intended recipient), please contact the sender by reply e-mail and delete all copies of this message. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

phanisvara das wrote:

the religious positions have been made clear; the position of the list organizers has been made clear long ago: http://en.opensuse.org/OpenSUSE_mailing_list_netiquette

Sorry, I'm from a place where freedom from religion was guaranteed by a constitution. Maybe that's why I take exception toward those attempting to impose one upon others (be it me or someone else). Chastising any or everyone in public about they are not following the "ancient rules" [sic] that are for the benefit of the "old timers"[sic], simply makes them an ass. Even creating self-serving, public wiki with comments about a desire for 'bottoms' smacks of poorly concealed attempts to dominate others to adhere to an ancient and *outdated* practice that, "AS A RULE", is inane. Style is style -- and rules designed for 'ancient' hardware need to be re-examined in the light of new paradigms or there will never be any progress on this planet. I'm an old, or _older_, of an 'old timer', vis-a-vis time on the internet or dealing with electronic, graphical or tty-based group discussions than any of those who claim that title and as one of the eldest elders (I was on the 'net' years before there was an 'internet) going back to uunet days. I was on cdc/ui-net instead of arpanet before that. If those claiming they are elder to me, that would place them on arpanet -- a military research project. Definitely, standards of the military, are not the ones I wish to live by today. The internet is changing -- and standards that made sense in ancient days when people were connected by 110-300 baud modems/ttys don't make sense when one has or uses high level graphical interfaces that can completely change the the _conceptual_ nature of the medium. There's a word for those who can't evolve -- extinct. Perhaps that is why they complain, with greatest NEED, against those moving forward. Those who can adapt will thrive and prosper -- those who can't will be left behind. That's why I constantly re-evaluate old 'wisdom' or 'customs' -- are the best serving the interests of people today or are they adhered-to, and enforced, out of a fear-of-change by a vocal and well-entrenched minority? I see the latter has holding back progress -- something we need to constantly engage in to grow both personally and as a species. -l -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Fri, 2009-09-25 at 14:15 -0700, James D. Parra wrote:

...

the religious positions have been made clear; the position of the list organizers has been made clear long ago: http://en.opensuse.org/OpenSUSE_mailing_list_netiquette

---

I'm from a place where freedom [] was guaranteed by a constitution. Maybe that's why I take exception toward those attempting to impose one upon others (be it me or someone else). ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

You are free to start a new list where top posting is the norm.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posting_style

Not to mention that She is also free to actually read that clause and understand it. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Adam Tauno Williams wrote:

...

...

...

been made clear; the position of the list organizers has been made clear long ago: http://en.opensuse.org/OpenSUSE_mailing_list_netiquette

And their position trumps all others.[sic]

...

...

I'm from a place where freedom was guaranteed by a constitution.

Which is absurdly irrelevent.

It's not irrelevant -- it means it's a principle I've been inculcated with. As such, when someone tries to religiously enforce their principles on me due to their unwillingness to use good tools to read email, then it's their personal choice which is completely something they choose -- not something they can expect me to adhere to. You need to understand how people's values are formed and how this affect their future behavior and values. Being brought up with freedom from (or of) religion means you don't tolerate other people pushing their religious views on you. How is that irrelevant? This is ***OpenSuse***...Not, someone's privately list. You are talking about rules in an Open society -- which, by definition, are not something that can be established by fiat. Open also means 'inclusive' -- allowing people of different sensibilities contribute. If you limit the list to bottoms, then you get a certain type of mentality that will go into creating Suse -- which is no longer 'Open'. Complaints are widely spread about poor **user* interface design. Reason? The design lists are run by bottom posters -- as someone else put it, those who are "tech experts" and 'old-timers". They are **least** suited to know how to design easy to use interfaces. They may design interfaces that allow great power and flexibility, but easy-of-use, or attractive design? Forget it -- as a rule, such types are generally less concerned, less knowledgable and have little 'innate' sense about what would make for good user design. Case in point is on emails. They use the logic of wanting a log. Users WON'T read through alot of text to get to what they need to do -- nor will they have the patience to pour through lots of tedious configurations or options just to try something. You put the booring stuff first and you are guaranteed to lose new users or novices. That's a STRONG reason why user's should never be chastised for posting style (clipping comments down to a relevant size, I believe is still fair game, but top/bottom? That can easily be tied to and artistic sense of what looks right vs. a 'logical order' mentality. There needs to be a balance and both views need representation, or OpenSuSE won't be the best product it can be...it will steer toward 'techies', *only*...to be the best there is, you need good support for both types of users. The idea people who just want to do it or see the message or functionality up front (get to the point), and those who want to set 200 options to control every aspect of how a tool works. One SHOULD not negate the other -- but both sides are needed. Instead of a wiki talking about bottom posting -- that part should be deleted -- and people's top posting (or not) will give you an idea of what type and what level of user they are. That's useful information. Don't squander it. Same goes for HTML -- if they take the time to write something in HTML -- and it looks nice -- maybe you should listen to them for aesthetic ideas... flash graphics should stay off limits -- but pictures showing relevant design content or problems seem entirely appropriate. For those posting in HTML, they should be encouraged, privately, to also supply/send the message in plain-text as well as HTML. You go onto microsoft lists, and probably apple lists -- and HTML is far more common. It's only in the 'ugly duckling' linux, the lists are generally pushed as text-only, and even down to a 'one-format-fits all' approach. A decided difference, wouldn't you say? -linda -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

You go onto microsoft lists, and probably apple lists -- and HTML is far more common. It's only in the 'ugly duckling' linux, the lists are generally pushed as text-only, and even down to a 'one-format-fits all' approach. A decided difference, wouldn't you say?

-linda

Except that frequently people on this list use pine or mutt. They don't parse html very well. So why would you inflict such pain of trying to read HTML tags when they shouldn't have to? Do we really need pretty little font and pictures that we need to allow HTML in messages? Not including any HTML insecurities? -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Duaine & Laura Hechler wrote:

Isn't pine and mutt from the - early - days of UNIX - then - why in the hell would you want to stay in the - Stone Age.

I REFUSED TO EVER TOUCH pine OT mutt - YOU MIGHT AS WELL GO BACK TO - DOS.

Duaine

Because not every linux install uses a gui. Lots of server setups run at init 3 or don't even have a gui installed. Pine and Mutt are used heavily still. They're quick, they don't use much resources, and they get the job done. Just because YOU refused to touch pine or mutt doesn't mean I or others don't use it. -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Why should the rest of us be imposed with only one way of posting because of people, that for whatever reason, us the antiquated pine & mutt and won't go gui.

Then I suggest you connect that those servers and access the mail via a gui interface.

Problem solved !!!!!!!!!!!!

If I'm running a server, why should I run an unneeded gui that will just hog up resources that I can dedicate to providing mail or web services or mysql or anything? Just because YOU don't use it does not make antiquated or wrong. -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Sunday 27 September 2009 07:37:11 pm Linda Walsh wrote:

Until recently I ran a 10-year old P-III as my linux email, DNS, squid, file and backup server. I ran my best machine as a graphical desktop running windows because I didn't want the headaches dealing with a linux desktop

can't you go away and preach to somebody else, pretty pretty please? now you're trying to convnce a linux list we should switch to windows desktops to avoid the hassle with linux? i think you'll still find answers here if you're having problems with openSUSE, but your other rants are grossly off-topic, IMO. -- ys phani. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

phanisvara das wrote:

can't you go away and preach to somebody else, pretty pretty please? now you're trying to convnce a linux list we should switch to windows desktops to avoid the hassle with linux?

I am in no way trying to convince anyone to go windows...if my wrists/RSI problems weren't what they were I doubt I'd be back on windows now. I ran linux as a desktop for 2-3 years before ulnar tunnel and spine problems forced me to windows to at least try the voice options... I found the windows interface bothered my wrists less, so I contend with doing most of my desktop interface stuff on windows and using linux for as supplying most of the resources for the windows machine -- email, DNS Doman master, fast file store, backup server, etc. I've tried to get the NVIDIA on my other computer (same GTX260 on my Win Box), running graphics on my Linux box, but no luck there. I've wanted to try the linux desktop and graphics apps and see how they've progressed and how it performs with the same hardware as my winbox...etc. But try to get others to switch to windows? I usually try to turn them on to suse desktop on the rare times I've had the opportunity. Don't take what I do as trying to convince you to do the same. I'm not trying to tell you how you should do things, I just would prefer not to see harassment going on when someone does something slightly 'different'. -l -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

John D Lamb wrote:

You could try a Wacom Bamboo tablet or similar. This uses a pen instead of a mouse and can help. It works best on KDE because KDE uses single clicks all the time. But it works well in Gnome and M$ platforms too. If you use it on M$, you’ll probably need to make the mouse double-click faster.

I currently use a track back and have one of it's five buttons set to double click, but for launching an icon, I changed that from double to single click years ago (a pref in properties) when looking at a folder). And yes -- Bamboo...just found it last night and ordered one. I have had a regular wacom, but it was too clumsy for regular use -- I use it if I want to do do some photo editing --- but that's usually rare). I hope the bamboo will be more useful...w/multi touch and pen might be just the trick to replace a mouse... If so, might get duals for it as well (I currently have dual track balls that I switch between based on posture and tiredness...) Thanks for the excellent suggestion! :-) -linda -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Linda Walsh pecked at the keyboard and wrote:

Those who choose to live in the stone age are the ones I'm talking about who are preventing progress. They need bottom posting because everything scrolls to the bottom when they bring up a message, by default. You have to explicitly invoke a pager to read it the top part. For me it's just the opposite. I have to page to read the bottom part.

All I can say is WA WA WA. Every year this subject comes and then goes away because the cry babies finally realize that they can't get the desired changes implemented. This is a _mailing_ list if you want to communicate a different way go to the forums. -- Ken Schneider SuSe since Version 5.2, June 1998 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Sunday 27 September 2009 09:07:11 am Linda Walsh wrote:

Those who choose to live in the stone age are the ones I'm talking about who are preventing progress. They need bottom posting because everything scrolls to the bottom when they bring up a message, by default. You have to explicitly invoke a pager to read it the top part. For me it's just the opposite. I have to page to read the bottom part.

Just my .02, I've used gui mailers since David Harris released his first gui of pegasus mail (~ 1990) but I'm equally happy if I need to use pine on a remote host, etc. A mail server just holds the ASCII, how you get to it and how you view it is up to you. There is a good argument to be made for continuing listserve mail in a text-only format. (I have seen the horrors allowing html on mailing lists bring) In addition to the Linux lists, I also have a few legal lists I am a member of. One is the TTLA (texas trial lawyers assn.) list that is server by the "lyris" list service. Volume runs ~500 posts per day. 3-4 years ago the ttla list started to allow html on the list and message size increased 4-fold to ~20k per post compared to the 4-6k in text -- and -- the MS word document attachments add 100 - 200K. Does it make a difference? Yes it does. Where you have broadband, then it isn't an issue from a download time standpoint, but where you are limited to dial-up -- It makes a HUGE difference. While allowing a "little" html may not seem all that bad at first, once the camel gets his nose under the tent .... Notwithstanding the size/download time issue, the next issue that emerges is how do you police it and who polices it? Yes any computer can parse messages, count tags, and reject based on some arbitrary limit, and rules can be set on what html can be added, etc.., but regardless it still becomes an additional layer of crap for someone to deal with. Given the number of issues involved in allowing a "little" html, I just don't see the benefit in it. On the bottom posting issue, I used to think it was just a pain. It was easier for me to just hit reply. But over the years I have learned to value reading information in a thread in the context it was meant to be read rather than having to scroll down and then back up to get the exact context. Over the years the mailer developers have added the capability to just about every mail package I can think of the "place the replay After the original message" which eliminates any "extra work" argument. For messages that can be completely read without the need to scroll to see the rest -- who cares. I've never been one of the reply: "Please Don't Top Post" guys, it just doesn't matter that much to me, but I can say that it's a whole lot easier to read a long message when the reply is either interlineated following each paragraph or bottom posted at the end of the message. Regardless of which side you come down on, I think reality probably dictates that there is just too much historical inertia standing in the way of changing either the text-only format or bottom-posting recommendation... -- David C. Rankin, J.D.,P.E. Rankin Law Firm, PLLC 510 Ochiltree Street Nacogdoches, Texas 75961 Telephone: (936) 715-9333 Facsimile: (936) 715-9339 www.rankinlawfirm.com -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

I use PINE (ALPINE) because it works efficiently. I don't like all the bandwidth wasted on decorations that the newer browsers encourage or HTML tags consume. Single key actions are faster than hand and wrist numbing mouse actions. I can connect to IMAP etc servers when needed, but don't like my mail stored elsewhere depending on a provider and network that sometimes breaks when I need it. I can view attachments or links quickly when needed. Thread sorting is an option. PINE has stayed current in network functionality thanks to its maintainers. Not sure why 'modern' mail clients are needed. Allen ---- Address: Allen Wilkinson (cell) (216) 548-2349 1286 Yellowstone Road (work) (216) 433-2075 Cleveland Heights, OH 44121 USA (INTERNET) aw(at)chaff(dot)biz +++++++ "Pluralism is the belief that all people have reasons for their beliefs. We ought to realize that our own reasoning, like everyone else's, is fallible and unfinished." Author Unknown On Fri, 25 Sep 2009, Duaine & Laura Hechler wrote:

Isn't pine and mutt from the - early - days of UNIX - then - why in the hell would you want to stay in the - Stone Age.

I REFUSED TO EVER TOUCH pine OT mutt - YOU MIGHT AS WELL GO BACK TO - DOS.

Duaine

-- Duaine Hechler Piano, Player Piano, Pump Organ Tuning, Servicing & Rebuilding Reed Organ Society Member Florissant, MO 63034 (314) 838-5587 dahechler@att.net www.hechlerpianoandorgan.com -- Home & Business user of Linux - 10 years

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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Saturday, 2009-09-26 at 06:41 -0400, Greg Freemyer wrote:

...

Except that frequently people on this list use pine or mutt. They don't parse html very well.

Can't they handle the text portion of a multipart mime encoded email? If not, maybe it is time they learned.

Of course they can.

The current restriction is a pain. Every now and then I turn on rich formatting in my email client and forget to turn it off. The next time I post here, the email is rejected even though I only type plain text stuff. I don't recall even the lkml lists rejecting multi-part mime encoded emails that have a plain text section.

See *bold*, /italics/, _underscored_, which will show up on some clients as such.

I agree with Linda it is time to reconsider some of this.

Nope. Html adds about three times to the size of messages, which may be sent to thousands of subscribers; and not all of them have broadband nor the posibility of getting it. Yes, in this time and age. If you want features, you have forums... - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkq+B1cACgkQtTMYHG2NR9VnSwCdGwN8qiDDJd/nx3eRMuf2yWgv 5owAoJImStBhSGXO/36GvgF8LM7cJipH =PrnX -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Saturday 26 September 2009 06:34:15 pm Graham Anderson wrote:

At this point I usually open up an application that's more suitable than an email client for creating documents that need some kind of formatting.

exactly. mailing lists meant to exchange words. it's a relic from usenet times, but not everything that was useful then has to be thrown overboard because something new has come up. you tend to focus more on what you say when you don't have to worry how it looks (that's how it works for me, at least).

...

I agree with Linda it is time to reconsider some of this.

yes, by using different mediums that are available now: blogs, audio and video podcasts, to exchange and discuss things that need this type of presentation.

Any personal HTML email I receive, that for any reason passes my spam filters, gets filtered straight to /dev/null.

i'm not going that far, because i communicate with many people who are lost in the glittering world of windows or apple. they don't care enough about technology to make an effort to learn something else. it works for them, and that's all they want to know. the geek part of me wants to dspise them for this, but i value many of these people in many other ways, so i can't do that. (if i had a geek-card i should probably turn it in now...) but this is a linux list, and naturally there's a large percentage of geeks around. moreover, it focuses (should focus) on technical matters, that don't require graphic presentation. (if they do, there's plenty of websites to park examples outside.) there are openSUSE forums at http://forums.opensuse.org/, allowing much more artistic freedom for posters, and thousands of other sites dealing with similar topics. if you can't live without this constitutionally guaranteed freedom, you should go there. it's only fair, though, to grant the maintainers and majorty of members on this list their (our) freedom to have a mailing list, not a multimedia forum. -- ys phani. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Sunday 27 September 2009 10:27:19 am Constantinos Galilei wrote:

I don't know... I think I have a brilliant idea! We can merge Scribus with our mail clients! Imagine the possibilities! HTML is old hat!

why stop at scribus? there's kdenlive, blender and so many other applications that could 'improve' the experience. and why worry about bandwidth or system resources? after all, we've got broadband and quadruple CPUs...let those poor guys in india get a life first...i mean another one; they believe in karma and rebirth anyway... -- phani. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Sunday September 27 2009 12:26:36 am phanisvara das wrote:

coming to think of it, it's actually un-patriotic not to use all the resources we have. if we don't, why would the industry keep pushing out new machines every 3 months, making the old ones obsolete? and then our american way of life, guaranteed constitution, congress, and industry would be at risk. we have to EXPAND, more and more, so our economy keeps growing. saving resources is for wimps!

Heck yeah! I amend my idea... let's modify the Doom 3 engine as an email display and compose messages the same way you make new levels! It'd be nice to get SOME use out of the money I shelled out for that piece of crap. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Graham Anderson wrote:

At work, our mail server has long since bounced any HTML messages or multipart messages, that is the one in ten thousand that is not spam ;)

Sounds like your workplace is pretty primitive. Nearly all the email I get from other companies comes in HTML. My email filtering (spamassassin) doesn't reject email that contains HTML -- it rejects spam. Maybe your company should get a bit wiser and up to date. Over 90% of the email I get from companies is HTML -- that is NOT spam. The spam part, I don't know, I don't keep track of the statistics as I don't usually look at the couple hundred messages that come into my various inboxes that are spam. OF course part of it is that I use different email boxes for each vendor -- usually with their name on it. So if they sell the email to a spammer, I know who leaked or sold the email. ;^) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Sunday, 2009-09-27 at 14:12 -0400, Michael S. Dunsavage wrote:

...

Nearly all the email I get from other companies comes in HTML.

As a sales ad or from correspondence with an employee from that company?

Invoices. All the invoices I get from utilities are in html email. No way I can change that, and if I don't pay they might cut the electricity. There places for html and places free of it. These mail lists should remain free. Business communication can use what /they/ like, specially if they pay. Some of them even if they get paid. Same as here: there are rules. Here the rule is "no html". For some companies the rule is "we send html". Simply respect every rule...

...

OF course part of it is that I use different email boxes for each vendor -- usually with their name on it. So if they sell the email to a spammer, I know who leaked or sold the email. ;^)

How do you know who leaked it? Does the new email say "we bought your email from xyz company?"

Yes, it does. It is a different address for each correspondent, so seeing the address, you know. Like: mine.001@somewhere mine.002@somewhere mine.003@somewhere mine.004@somewhere If you see spam going to mine.003@somewhere, you know that the person you gave your address "mine.003@somewhere" leaked it. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkq/zUEACgkQtTMYHG2NR9VfJACfU2Wr20xUFiHd1VjLg74nRc89 NQsAniPCer4gS4LoYuBg5lF/GC4ax6pv =4Q8/ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

-- snip --

...

OF course part of it is that I use different email boxes for each vendor -- usually with their name on it. So if they sell the email to a spammer, I know who leaked or sold the email. ;^)

How do you know who leaked it? Does the new email say "we bought your email from xyz company?"

-- requote --

...

I use different email boxes for each vendor usually with their name on it.

Of course, with HTML formatting, I could just snip the crap, and bold (or otherwise emphasise) the relevant material. That way you'd see your question was already answered in the material you replied to, and I'd not have to piffel on as I have in order to point it out to you.. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Why can you not snip quoted material and *bold* things with out html?

Pure opinion, but stars around something doesn't stand out the same as something genuinely bold, doubly so if it is part of material already being quoted that is having the emphasis added (as in my example it would have). -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On 26 September 09, Greg Freemyer wrote:

On Fri, Sep 25, 2009 at 11:12 PM, Michael S. Dunsavage

wrote:

...

...

You go onto microsoft lists, and probably apple lists -- and HTML is far more common. It's only in the 'ugly duckling' linux, the lists are generally pushed as text-only, and even down to a 'one-format-fits all' approach. �A decided difference, wouldn't you say?

-linda

Except that frequently people on this list use pine or mutt. They don't parse html very well.

Can't they handle the text portion of a multipart mime encoded email? If not, maybe it is time they learned.

HTML e-mail is for 'tards and others who are easily amused by bright, shiny things...sorta like the old way of catching a monkey - put a bright shiny thing in a hole that the hand can fit into... monkey puts hand in hole to grab bright, shiny thing... monkey not smart enough to let go of bright shiny thing because 'fist' too big to remove from hole, so can't pull hand back out. It's a waste of space and time. -- If guns kill people then... - Pencils mispell words. - Cars make people drive drunk. - Spoons make people overeat. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Sunday 27 September 2009 01:33:26 pm Brian K. White wrote:

<html><body><pre> </pre></body></html>

This is in no way offensive even if reading that email on pine or mutt, because the html is in the form of just adding a couple words to the beginning and end of the body and nothing in the middle.

agreed, for this purpose. but since you know this, it shouldn't be difficult for you to not send any html to lists like this which block html content. very few people who use html mail are as conscientious as you are, after all. -- phani. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Fri, Sep 25, 2009 at 6:51 PM, Linda Walsh wrote:

 Complaints are widely spread about poor **user* interface design.  Reason?  The design lists are run by bottom posters -- as someone else put it, those who are "tech experts" and 'old-timers".

Oh really? Is that the reason? [citation needed]. So if we ENFORCE html on those lists, problem solved? Who knew it could be so ease!!

Instead of a wiki talking about bottom posting -- that part should be deleted -- and people's top posting (or not) will give you an idea of what type and what level of user they are.  That's useful information.  Don't squander it.

How very disturbing. Never mind the message. Judge it by its package. Really, did you just say that, or did I just imagine it because you posted in plain old text?

Same goes for HTML -- if they take the time to write something in HTML -- and it looks nice -- maybe you should listen to them for aesthetic ideas...

Why should technical ideas be evaluated based on flowery layout and fonts and colors? Plain text for everybody puts everybody on a common playing field. It prevents the bright red 24point screaming, the bold underlined italicized emphasis and parchment backgrounds from becoming the message. It forces people to put at least a modicum of thought into their message, proper description of problem, solutions, and questions. And it makes it clear to people that they should wrap their lines at some reasonable length. -- ----------JSA--------- Someone stole my tag line, so now I have this rental. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

John Andersen wrote:

On Fri, Sep 25, 2009 at 6:51 PM, Linda Walsh wrote:

<snip>

...

Same goes for HTML -- if they take the time to write something in HTML -- and it looks nice -- maybe you should listen to them for aesthetic ideas...

Why should technical ideas be evaluated based on flowery layout and fonts and colors?

How does html help answer a question such as "how do I get sound to work on my blah-blah sound card?" or "I compiled such-and-such and I got this diagnostic message" or "where can I find so-and-so library?" The purpose of the list (I thought) is to help getting SuSE running, not a discussion of web page layout. I cannot imagine a forum with less need for html. The adage "Less is more" applies. -- Tony Alfrey tonyalfrey@earthlink.net "I'd Rather Be Sailing" -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Saturday 26 September 2009 02:31:45 am Linda Walsh wrote:

Style is style -- and rules designed for 'ancient' hardware need to be re-examined in the light of new paradigms or there will never be any progress on this planet.

i fail to see the connection between top- or bottom posting and "progress on this planet." go ahead and blast everybody, call them names, etc., and good luck finding help if you need it. i'm *plonking* this whole thread, even the mildly amusing effect of seeing others excite themselves about nothing has worn off by now. -- phani. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Linda Walsh wrote:

Peter Nikolic wrote:

...

Top posting is exactly what you have just done ... post your comment ABOVE which makes it hard to follow the flow of the article.

---

Please don't go on about putting the most recent information first.

Those who have read previous emails have no problem following the flow and seeing it repeated ad infinitum/ad nauseum, is just mind numbing.

Besides...you are forcing people with disabilities to work harder -- think of blind people having to read through scads of repeated text until they get to the new content.

<other nonsense deleted> Here we go again! (though it has been a while since the last time this list went through this loop). There is always someone kicks this thing off.. but the arguments given above are among the silliest I have seen for a long time.

BTW, I 'bottom' posted, because in this case, it made 'sense'. I responded to a short quote of what you said, but when people included pages of previous text, and add a few lines at the bottom, they should be forced to listen to elevator music for days on end. linda

BTW Would be rather nice if you at least keep your text formatted consistently. A line length >80 is *not* friendly, and the iffy formatting is creating the situation where TBird is generating occasional very long lines in quoting your message and with apologies to others I am damned if I am going to edit the original text to get the reply to look reasonable on this occasion. Might be worth learning how to use your mail client and consider the benefits of consistent formatting before commenting about the current agreed practices on a mailing list..... - -- ============================================================================== I have always wished that my computer would be as easy to use as my telephone. My wish has come true. I no longer know how to use my telephone. Bjarne Stroustrup ============================================================================== -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAkq92oIACgkQasN0sSnLmgLtiACeO1IEKPBQAZzr9MQGq61h6uF0 kTIAninf4YurthNh2qforighU4elmHzj =dGgo -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

I say... On Friday September 25 2009 8:05:05 am Linda Walsh wrote:

Peter Nikolic wrote:

...

Top posting is exactly what you have just done ... post your comment ABOVE which makes it hard to follow the flow of the article.

...that we...

--- Please don't go on about putting the most recent information first.

...split the difference. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org