Hello SuSE folk, Might want to consider this for your next hard drive purchase. Tried to get a diagnostics program for a Western Digital hard drive that I suspect might be giving me problems. They ONLY have it for the windoz flavors. I don't believe it !!! Bob S. PS pre-ordered and paid for my new SuSE 9.2 Pro tonight. Can't wait unitl Nov. whatever for it to arrive.
On Thursday 14 October 2004 09:00, Bob S wrote:
Might want to consider this for your next hard drive purchase. Tried to get a diagnostics program for a Western Digital hard drive that I suspect might be giving me problems. They ONLY have it for the windoz flavors.
Hmm, would it run with wine?
I don't believe it !!!
I hope Western Digital does not go the same way as Asus. Cheers, Leen
--- Bob S
Hello SuSE folk,
Might want to consider this for your next hard drive purchase. Tried to get a diagnostics program for a Western Digital hard drive that I suspect might be giving me problems. They ONLY have it for the windoz flavors. I don't believe it !!!
Bob S.
PS pre-ordered and paid for my new SuSE 9.2 Pro tonight. Can't wait unitl Nov. whatever for it to arrive.
Good point! Lack of attention to non-Microsoft OSs may reach to a point that even a hard-drive manufacturer considers its consumers to be Windows users! But my question is: Have other hard disk manufacturers linux-based softwares? I think a diagnostic tool should be stand-alone (on a bootable media) or be able to run under DOS. Regards, Bahram Alinezhad, Tehran, Iran. _______________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today! http://vote.yahoo.com
Good point! Lack of attention to non-Microsoft OSs may reach to a point that even a hard-drive manufacturer considers its consumers to be Windows users! But my question is: Have other hard disk manufacturers linux-based softwares? I think a diagnostic tool should be stand-alone (on a bootable media) or be able to run under DOS.
Most HD diagnostic tools run under some type of simple DOS and boot off a floppy. Seagate has "Seatools" with a text GUI that's pretty nice. Jeff
Torsdag den 14. oktober 2004 13:34 skrev Bahram Alinezhad:
--- Bob S
wrote: Hello SuSE folk,
Might want to consider this for your next hard drive purchase. Tried to get a diagnostics program for a Western Digital hard drive that I suspect might be giving me problems. They ONLY have it for the windoz flavors. I don't believe it !!!
Bob S.
PS pre-ordered and paid for my new SuSE 9.2 Pro tonight. Can't wait unitl Nov. whatever for it to arrive.
Good point! Lack of attention to non-Microsoft OSs may reach to a point that even a hard-drive manufacturer considers its consumers to be Windows users! But my question is: Have other hard disk manufacturers linux-based softwares?
IBM / hitachi But I haven't bought an IBM HD for 4 years ;-) Does any of you have any experience with the new lines from Hitachi ??
I think a diagnostic tool should be stand-alone (on a bootable media) or be able to run under DOS.
Regards, Bahram Alinezhad, Tehran, Iran.
_______________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today! http://vote.yahoo.com
On Thursday 14 October 2004 23:30, Johan Nielsen wrote:
Does any of you have any experience with the new lines from Hitachi ?? Bought one for my mother's PC - 60GB Deskstar 7200rpm 2mb cache. It's cool and quiet, haven't given any trouble yet. Only thing is, I've read (after buying it) that this specific model was troublesome.
-- Kind regards Hans du Plooy Newington Consulting Services hansdp at newingtoncs dot co dot za
The Thursday 2004-10-14 at 03:00 -0400, Bob S wrote:
Might want to consider this for your next hard drive purchase. Tried to get a diagnostics program for a Western Digital hard drive that I suspect might be giving me problems. They ONLY have it for the windoz flavors. I don't believe it !!!
Typically, it is a download file which when run in windows creates a bootable floppy disk, which in fact runs plain dos. I don't know about WD. Notice that testing a HD inside windows is asking for trouble... -- Cheers, Carlos Robinson
The Thursday 2004-10-14 at 08:54 -0500, Steve Kratz wrote:
Notice that testing a HD inside windows is asking for trouble...
How's that any different, from just running Windows? ;-)
:) Sounds like the Linux equiv. of running fsck on a mounted drive...
Right. The problem is that windows can not umount a disk, nor can it deny access to the disk (I wonder why?) - so the only way is to request the user from refrain using the disk, and detect if there is an access and stopping or pausing the process - meaning that things like the wallpaper launching stops scandisk. I was referring to that kind of problems. But testing the HD at a lower level (as needed in this case) is even more difficult, so they do it booting plain dos. I heard of a maker doing it with a small linux, but I have not seen it. -- Cheers, Carlos Robinson
Carlos, On Thursday 14 October 2004 15:42, Carlos E. R. wrote:
...
Right. The problem is that windows can not umount a disk, nor can it deny access to the disk (I wonder why?) - so the only way is to request the user from refrain using the disk, and detect if there is an access and stopping or pausing the process - meaning that things like the wallpaper launching stops scandisk.
Under Windows NT and "higher," the OS most certainly can and does prohibit direct access to the drive. That's why you have to reboot to run "CHKDSK.EXE" on the boot volume or on any volume that cannot be unmounted (e.g., because it contains an active paging file ("pagefile.sys"). In those cases, CHKDSK runs outside the normal Windows environment in an early boot stage.
...
-- Cheers, Carlos Robinson
Randall Schulz
On Thursday 14 October 2004 07:38, Carlos E. R. wrote:
The Thursday 2004-10-14 at 03:00 -0400, Bob S wrote:
Might want to consider this for your next hard drive purchase. Tried to get a diagnostics program for a Western Digital hard drive that I suspect might be giving me problems. They ONLY have it for the windoz flavors. I don't believe it !!!
Typically, it is a download file which when run in windows creates a bootable floppy disk, which in fact runs plain dos. I don't know about WD.
Notice that testing a HD inside windows is asking for trouble...
I believe Carlos is correct in that assumption for WD. But then you have to seek out a Windoz machine to do that. I did it once for a Maxtor quite awhile ago. Don't remember how I got it but pretty sure it was a Dos floppy. Guess my new system is going to have Seagate drives. Don't know about Wine. Don't use it. Danny !!! WAIT ! Please, not the Grammar Police ! Oh No !! Just me ??? or Don too ?? Bob S.
Bob S wrote:
Might want to consider this for your next hard drive purchase. Tried to get a diagnostics program for a Western Digital hard drive that I suspect might be giving me problems. They ONLY have it for the windoz flavors. I don't believe it !!!
I do. WD is the winmodem of ATA drives: http://qa.mandrakesoft.com/show_bug.cgi?id=12078 Leendert Meyer wrote:
I hope Western Digital does not go the same way as Asus.
Too late. They did that about 12 years ago. -- "[W]hoever finds me finds life....[A]ll who hate me love death." Proverbs 8:35-6 NIV Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 Felix Miata *** http://members.ij.net/mrmazda/
On Thursday 14 October 2004 14:19, Felix Miata wrote:
Bob S wrote:
Might want to consider this for your next hard drive purchase. Tried to get a diagnostics program for a Western Digital hard drive that I suspect might be giving me problems. They ONLY have it for the windoz flavors. I don't believe it !!!
I do. WD is the winmodem of ATA drives: http://qa.mandrakesoft.com/show_bug.cgi?id=12078
Leendert Meyer wrote:
I hope Western Digital does not go the same way as Asus.
Too late. They did that about 12 years ago. -- "[W]hoever finds me finds life....[A]ll who hate me love death." Proverbs 8:35-6 NIV
Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409
Felix Miata *** http://members.ij.net/mrmazda/
Yes the first version of MDK10 had a habit of destrying WD hard drives, I'm not kidding. We had to swap out a entire production run of drives thanks to mandrake. I tested the new drives with Fedora 1 back in those days and it was fine and then reloaded mandrake and had to swap out some more drives. Turns out w had to change to maxtor. Just some useless info -- Chadley Wilson Redhat Certified Technician Cert Number: 603004708291270 Pinnacle Micro Manufacturers of Proline Computers ==================================== Exercise freedom, Use LINUX =====================================
On Thursday 14 October 2004 14:37, Chadley Wilson wrote:
Yes the first version of MDK10 had a habit of destrying WD hard drives, I'm not kidding. We had to swap out a entire production run of drives thanks to mandrake. I tested the new drives with Fedora 1 back in those days and it was fine and then reloaded mandrake and had to swap out some more drives.
Yeah, they busted a couple of CD-ROMs too. Good reason to stay with SUSE... -- Kind regards Hans du Plooy Newington Consulting Services hansdp at newingtoncs dot co dot za
Chadley Wilson wrote:
On Thursday 14 October 2004 14:19, Felix Miata wrote:
Bob S wrote:
Might want to consider this for your next hard drive purchase. A little late. I bought WD 120 GB last fall
I suspect might be giving me problems. They ONLY have it for the windoz flavors. I don't believe it !!! As others have said, it runs from a floppy so why is that so horrible? If it is because of a Gates aversion, it might not matter anyway since the DOS is not the MS DOS
I do. WD is the winmodem of ATA drives: http://qa.mandrakesoft.com/show_bug.cgi?id=12078 I had to read carefuly before I finally understood what you meant. Those slimeballs!
Leendert Meyer wrote:
I hope Western Digital does not go the same way as Asus.
Too late. They did that about 12 years ago. I give up. Can anyone explain what that meant?
Yes the first version of MDK10 had a habit of destrying WD hard drives, I'm because of this "winmodem" problem?
This thread might not be off topic at all. When I upgraded the PC containing the WD drives to SuSE 9.1, had a lot of trouble. I just didn't feel motivated to go though the process of troubleshooting so I went back to SuSE 9.0. Since SuSE 9.1 is the 2.6 kernel while 9.0 uses 2.4, is it possible that with the new kernel, the WD issues came to the surface? Damon Register
torsdag 14 oktober 2004 19:33 skrev Damon Register:
Chadley Wilson wrote:
On Thursday 14 October 2004 14:19, Felix Miata wrote:
Bob S wrote:
Might want to consider this for your next hard drive purchase.
A little late. I bought WD 120 GB last fall
I just bought an 80GB last fall as well ... I've been getting some squeeks from one of the hard drives, which causes system freezes. When I unplug the second hard disk, which is an IBM 20GB, the system boots well on the remaining WD 80GB one. This is a good read, since I was just about to go out and get myself a 200GB one ... what would be the best choice of hard drives, besides WD ?
Örn Hansen zei:
torsdag 14 oktober 2004 19:33 skrev Damon Register:
Chadley Wilson wrote:
On Thursday 14 October 2004 14:19, Felix Miata wrote:
Bob S wrote:
Might want to consider this for your next hard drive purchase.
A little late. I bought WD 120 GB last fall
I just bought an 80GB last fall as well ... I've been getting some squeeks from one of the hard drives, which causes system freezes. When I unplug the second hard disk, which is an IBM 20GB, the system boots well on the remaining WD 80GB one.
This is a good read, since I was just about to go out and get myself a 200GB one ... what would be the best choice of hard drives, besides WD ?
Seagate now delivers IDE-drives with 5 years warranty. I have also used many Maxtor drives without problems. -- L. de Braal BraHa Systems NL Terneuzen T +31 115 649333 F +31 115 649444
Örn Hansen wrote:
This is a good read, since I was just about to go out and get myself a 200GB one ... what would be the best choice of hard drives, besides WD ?
I've been buying Seagate since Maxtor absorbed Quantum and Hitachi took over IBM. 5 year Seagate warranties are a major plus. -- "[W]hoever finds me finds life....[A]ll who hate me love death." Proverbs 8:35-6 NIV Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 Felix Miata *** http://members.ij.net/mrmazda/
On Thursday 14 October 2004 21:28, Felix Miata wrote:
200GB one ... what would be the best choice of hard drives, besides WD ?
I've been buying Seagate since Maxtor absorbed Quantum and Hitachi took over IBM. 5 year Seagate warranties are a major plus.
Just to add my 2 cents about Seagate. I bought myself a 40GB seagate when they came out. I put it in a pouch that I had over my shoulder. Long story short, the strap broke as I was climbing the stairs out of the trains station (my mode of transport then) and it fell and tumbled town the stairs about two stories. The drive was only in that plastic casing the Seagates used to come in, no box with padding in. Still have the drive in my home PC, and it's still not giving any trouble. Just as a side note, as far as I know Seagate bought Conner (someone correct me if I'm wrong). When I lived in school res I had a 286 with an 80 MB Conner drive. We didn't have power outlets in our rooms, but we had a computer room where everybody who had computers worked - we were only about five or so. I was concerned that someone would tamper with my computer (this was before bios passwords and internet was not even a rumour yet, so the only way I could prevent this was taking the drive out and keeping it in my room. It stayed in the top shelve in my closet, from where I've dropped it countless times - on a concrete floor. I still have that drive too - working like day one. I used to use it to backup my mail folders, until they became to big... -- Kind regards Hans du Plooy Newington Consulting Services hansdp at newingtoncs dot co dot za
The Friday 2004-10-15 at 11:45 +0200, Hans du Plooy wrote:
It stayed in the top shelve in my closet, from where I've dropped it countless times - on a concrete floor. I still have that drive too - working like day one. I used to use it to backup my mail folders, until they became to big...
That's probably because the heads are parked when off, so the surface is safe. I once inadvertently broke a HD by pounding my fist on the table (probably win 3.11 had crashed for the umpteen time that day), and the HD started having read problems right away. Head crash. Barely had time to copy over to another disk. I had tape backups, also. -- Cheers, Carlos Robinson
torsdag 14 oktober 2004 21:28 skrev Felix Miata:
Örn Hansen wrote:
This is a good read, since I was just about to go out and get myself a 200GB one ... what would be the best choice of hard drives, besides WD ?
I've been buying Seagate since Maxtor absorbed Quantum and Hitachi took over IBM. 5 year Seagate warranties are a major plus.
Stores here, that are selling Seagate Barracuda are advertising 2 or 3 year warranty, not 5 years?
Örn Hansen wrote:
torsdag 14 oktober 2004 21:28 skrev Felix Miata:
I've been buying Seagate since Maxtor absorbed Quantum and Hitachi took over IBM. 5 year Seagate warranties are a major plus.
Stores here, that are selling Seagate Barracuda are advertising 2 or 3 year warranty, not 5 years?
It takes a while for old packaging to be purged from the retail channels. http://www.pcworld.com/news/article/0,aid,117040,00.asp -- "[W]hoever finds me finds life....[A]ll who hate me love death." Proverbs 8:35-6 NIV Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 Felix Miata *** http://members.ij.net/mrmazda/
JL > JL >> This is a good read, since I was just about to go out and get myself a JL >> 200GB one ... what would be the best choice of hard drives, besides WD ? JL > JL >I prefer Seagate also, so it's unanimous! JL > JL >Jeff I go through lots of drives -- maybe 20 or 30 new drives a year -- (I perform voluntary tech work for a few organisations what use lots of storage). I have consistently found Maxtor to be the worst, and this spring switched to Seagate. I haven't had a Seagate go down yet (I have lost plenty of Maxtors and a few WDs within weeks of installing them) I'd like to try IBM/Hitachi but I can't get them in town and I don't like to order drives through the mail (more banging and bumping before it gets to me). -- ---------------------------------------------------- Jonathan Wilson Cedar Creek Software http://www.cedarcreeksoftware.com
torsdag 14 oktober 2004 22:39 skrev JW:
I'd like to try IBM/Hitachi but I can't get them in town and I don't like to order drives through the mail (more banging and bumping before it gets to me).
I have gotten two IBM Deskstar hard drives, one 10GB and another 20GB. Then I got a 80GB Wester Digital, mainly because the same size IBM Deskstars had a bad reputation (I think that's the time they became Hitachi's). The 10 and 20 Gig Deskstar both seem to be good quality ... for me at least. I bought IBM at the time, because it was IBM (I've always found their products to be impregnable).
On Thursday 14 October 2004 14:05, Jeffrey Laramie wrote:
This is a good read, since I was just about to go out and get myself a 200GB one ... what would be the best choice of hard drives, besides WD ?
I prefer Seagate also, so it's unanimous!
Here's something I'll add to this hard drive issue... and trust me, something you don't want to go through personally. I've gone through 2 IBM 15GB hd's, 3 WD 40GB and now I'm currently running with a 10GB Maxtor and a 60GB WD, and has all happened within 7 month period. The IBM drives had a known production problem, don't really know about the WD drives. Personally, I think debian had a kill issue in at least 2 of the WD drives. (one was outright doa, since you couldn't even partition the drive...) Being a former partner of a computer store, I can tell you that this happens with almost *all* hardware to some extent. I've had Linksys/3com/Intel nics die, maxtor, western digital and seagate hard drives die, etc. But I must admit that the quality of hardware is going downhill for the most part, compared to years back. I still have a really old 512MB seagate and a maxtor 1GB drive chugging along on a system running as a firewall. (try that Microsoft!) ;) (it's a old gateway 100Mhz Pentium btw) In a nutshell, buyer beware. Dana
Being a former partner of a computer store, I can tell you that this happens with almost *all* hardware to some extent. I've had Linksys/3com/Intel nics die, maxtor, western digital and seagate hard drives die, etc.
Your store wasn't in Northern Virginia by any chance, was it? Jeff
On Friday 15 October 2004 06:22, Jeffrey Laramie wrote:
Being a former partner of a computer store, I can tell you that this happens with almost *all* hardware to some extent. I've had Linksys/3com/Intel nics die, maxtor, western digital and seagate hard drives die, etc.
Your store wasn't in Northern Virginia by any chance, was it?
Nope, it was in Wisconsin. :) Dana
I have an older WD 40gig and no problems with 9.1 Pro. I do wonder it this is a recent problem. I have no word from OCLUG about wd problems and most of the guys live where thereis DSL and run their own servers. What make and model of WD drives are causing this problem? CWSIV ________________________________________________________________ Speed up your surfing with Juno SpeedBand. Now includes pop-up blocker! Only $14.95/ month - visit http://www.juno.com/surf to sign up today!
On Thursday 14 October 2004 14:19, Felix Miata wrote:
Bob S wrote:
Might want to consider this for your next hard drive purchase. Tried to get a diagnostics program for a Western Digital hard drive that I suspect might be giving me problems. They ONLY have it for the windoz flavors. I don't believe it !!!
I do. WD is the winmodem of ATA drives: http://qa.mandrakesoft.com/show_bug.cgi?id=12078
Leendert Meyer wrote:
I hope Western Digital does not go the same way as Asus.
Too late. They did that about 12 years ago.
Didn't know that. But this is good to know. ;) Cheers, Leen
Bob S wrote:
Hello SuSE folk,
Might want to consider this for your next hard drive purchase. Tried to get a diagnostics program for a Western Digital hard drive that I suspect might be giving me problems. They ONLY have it for the windoz flavors. I don't believe it !!!
Bob S.
PS pre-ordered and paid for my new SuSE 9.2 Pro tonight. Can't wait unitl Nov. whatever for it to arrive.
Well, there you go, "pre-ordering" stuff. Shame on you! The Grammar Patrol will be around soon to see you. :D -- DC Parris http://matheteuo.org/ http://chaddb.sourceforge.net/ "Free software is like God's love - you can share it with anyone anytime anywhere."
Don wrote regarding 'Re: [SLE] Believe this ?? OT' on Thu, Oct 14 at 12:00:
Well, there you go, "pre-ordering" stuff. Shame on you! The Grammar Patrol will be around soon to see you. :D
Get on the floor and place your hands behind your back. The modifier "soon" should not come between the infinitive phrase and the verb phrase that the infinitive phrase is modifying. "Soon" would more appropriately be placed directly ahead of the verb phrase, as in "Soon, the Grammar Patrol will be around to..." or "The Grammar Patrol will soon be around to...". --Danny
On Thursday 14 Oct 2004 22:20, Danny Sauer wrote:
Patrol will be around soon to see you. :D
Hummmmmmm grammer patrol yea well ow bin yer our kid om yow alrihgt .. pete -- Linux user No: 256242 Machine No: 139931 G6NJR Pete also MSA registered "Quinton 11" A Linux Only area Happy bug hunting M$ clan, The time is here to FORGET that M$ Corp ever existed the world does not NEED M$ Corp the world has NO USE for M$ Corp it is time to END M$ Corp , Play time is over folks time for action approaches at an alarming pace the death knell for M$ Copr has been sounded . Termination time is around the corner ..
On Thursday 14 October 2004 17:20, Danny Sauer wrote:
Don wrote regarding 'Re: [SLE] Believe this ?? OT' on Thu, Oct 14 at 12:00:
Well, there you go, "pre-ordering" stuff. Shame on you! The Grammar Patrol will be around soon to see you. :D
Get on the floor and place your hands behind your back. The modifier "soon" should not come between the infinitive phrase and the verb phrase that the infinitive phrase is modifying. "Soon" would more appropriately be placed directly ahead of the verb phrase, as in "Soon, the Grammar Patrol will be around to..." or "The Grammar Patrol will soon be around to...".
--Danny
Who paid attention in English class but now has way too much time on his hands. ;-)
Jeffrey wrote regarding 'Re: [SLE] Believe this ?? OT' on Thu, Oct 14 at 16:45:
On Thursday 14 October 2004 17:20, Danny Sauer wrote: [...]
--Danny
Who paid attention in English class but now has way too much time on his hands. ;-)
I think that one is directly related to the other. :) --Danny
On 14-Oct-04 Danny Sauer wrote:
Don wrote regarding 'Re: [SLE] Believe this ?? OT' on Thu, Oct 14 at 12:00:
Well, there you go, "pre-ordering" stuff. Shame on you! The Grammar Patrol will be around soon to see you. :D
Get on the floor and place your hands behind your back. The modifier "soon" should not come between the infinitive phrase and the verb phrase that the infinitive phrase is modifying. "Soon" would more appropriately be placed directly ahead of the verb phrase, as in "Soon, the Grammar Patrol will be around to..." or "The Grammar Patrol will soon be around to...".
--Danny
Beautifully done!
Ted.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
E-Mail: (Ted Harding)
torsdag 14 oktober 2004 23:20 skrev Danny Sauer:
Don wrote regarding 'Re: [SLE] Believe this ?? OT' on Thu, Oct 14 at 12:00:
Well, there you go, "pre-ordering" stuff. Shame on you! The Grammar Patrol will be around soon to see you. :D
Get on the floor and place your hands behind your back. The modifier "soon" should not come between the infinitive phrase and the verb phrase that the infinitive phrase is modifying. "Soon" would more appropriately be placed directly ahead of the verb phrase, as in "Soon, the Grammar Patrol will be around to..." or "The Grammar Patrol will soon be around to...".
Actually, I think he merely forgot a comma "The Grammar Patrol will be around soon, to ...".
Örn Hansen wrote:
torsdag 14 oktober 2004 23:20 skrev Danny Sauer:
Don wrote regarding 'Re: [SLE] Believe this ?? OT' on Thu, Oct 14 at 12:00:
Well, there you go, "pre-ordering" stuff. Shame on you! The Grammar Patrol will be around soon to see you. :D
Get on the floor and place your hands behind your back. The modifier "soon" should not come between the infinitive phrase and the verb phrase that the infinitive phrase is modifying. "Soon" would more appropriately be placed directly ahead of the verb phrase, as in "Soon, the Grammar Patrol will be around to..." or "The Grammar Patrol will soon be around to...".
Actually, I think he merely forgot a comma "The Grammar Patrol will be around soon, to ...".
Stop, please stop! Yo guys are giving me nightmarish flashbacks to high school grammar with Sister Mary Catherine! Passing by putting the apostrophe over the "s" and getting credit for it being correct, because I didn't remember the rule for where it belonged in that context, still stands as one of those small miracles in my life! Yeah, I know, I probably dangled or mangled a participle in that paragraph ... whatever a participle is! ;-) -- Thanks! & 73, doc kd4e West Central Florida 100% Linux. Suse 9.1 Drake, Hallicrafters, Heathkit, TenTec, Yaesu Radio Life: http://www.gospelcom.net/twr/ Linux-Incompatible hardware is defective! "...a plan is not a litany of complaints." USA Pres. Election 2004: http://www.rnc.org/ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
participants (23)
-
Bahram Alinezhad
-
Bob S
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Carl William Spitzer IV
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Carlos E. R.
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Chadley Wilson
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Damon Register
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Dana J. Laude
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Danny Sauer
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doc
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Don Parris
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Felix Miata
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Hans du Plooy
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James Knott
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Jeffrey Laramie
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Johan Nielsen
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JW
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L. de Braal
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Leendert Meyer
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peter Nikolic
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Randall R Schulz
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Steve Kratz
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Ted.Harding@nessie.mcc.ac.uk
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Örn Hansen