Hey Peepz, unfortunately lists.suse.com is dying on me. We had some hardware failure in the RAID and have power it down some time this week to fix this. We cant say yet how long it will take but we probably wont be able to serve mails during this time. On the other hand we are since some time in the process to migrate to a new mailinglist server. One with a different mailinglist manager (mlmmj instead of ezmlm) and different archiving software (mhonarc instead of hypermail). All opensuse lists already run over this server (lists.opensuse.org) and we only had small problems so far. So because we are moviung technically to a different solution we also want to sort out our list mess. Until now there is no real layout involved and the current list naming just grew over time. This brings some problems with it. For instance its not clear wich language is spoken on the list or which topic exactly is discussed. While cleaning this up we also want to move nearly all lists to the opensuse.org domain. The layout we came up with is relatively simple. Its project based. For the project foo it would look like this: foo - General list about the project foo in english foo-<lang> - General list about the project foo in <language> foo-users - Support list for the project foo in english foo-users-<lang> - Support list for the project foo in <language> foo-<topic> - List for the topic <topic> in english foo-<topic>-<lang> - List for the topic <topic> in <language> This is a layout that scales[1]. We have several projects hosted on lists.suse.com (suse, taskjuggler, packet-writing, m17n, etc.), a lot of topics (announce, support, KDE, isdn, etc.) and a lot of languages (english, german, spanish, japanese etc.) that are used on the lists. At the moment this is a mess and with the new layout we would sort this out. So i would like to use the downtime of lists.suse.com to migrate lists to the new server in the new layout. This means that suse-linux-e@suse.com would become opensuse-users@opensuse.org. There are essecntial two ways we could takle this and i want your feedback which one you would prefer. I would like to do it the followingg way: First i migrate all users to the new list and then we rename the list and move it to the new server. The new server will accept both listnames but send mails only from the new one. So mails send to suse-linux-e@suse.com will come back from the list opensuse-users@opensuse.org. After some time (3-6 months) i turn off the old listname. The setup stays the same except that the listname will change. This would mean we do both steps at once. Move the list technically and rename it. We could also split these steps up. Mails send to opensuse-users@opensuse.org would come from suse-linux@suse.com. So we do the technical part first and the renaming part later. I really would like to do it both at once. What do you think? How it would work you can test on opensuse-test@opensuse.org and suse-test@suse.com. Subscribing works with the usual addresses: opensuse-test+subscribe@opensuse.org suse-test-subscribe@opensuse.org Details on how to use the new mailinglist server i wrote up while we were migrating the opensuse lists. http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-announce/2006-08/msg00005.html I think this is it. Im looking forward to your feedback on this matter :) Henne [1] The german list is suggesting to not do the -users list. So suse-linux becomes opensuse-de and this list would become opensuse@opensuse.org. The only thing that keeps me from doing that is that i would blow up the already established opensuse list to the size of SLE. But thinking about it this should really be a problem or? -- Henne Vogelsang, ml-admin "Rules change. The Game remains the same." - Omar (The Wire)
* Henne Vogelsang
First i migrate all users to the new list and then we rename the list and move it to the new server. The new server will accept both listnames but send mails only from the new one. So mails send to suse-linux-e@suse.com will come back from the list opensuse-users@opensuse.org. After some time (3-6 months) i turn off the old listname. The setup stays the same except that the listname will change. This would mean we do both steps at once. Move the list technically and rename it.
I vote for this were migrating the opensuse lists. ....
[1] The german list is suggesting to not do the -users list. So suse-linux becomes opensuse-de and this list would become opensuse@opensuse.org. The only thing that keeps me from doing that is that i would blow up the already established opensuse list to the size of SLE. But thinking about it this should really be a problem or?
opensuse@opensuse.org -- Patrick Shanahan Registered Linux User #207535 http://wahoo.no-ip.org @ http://counter.li.org HOG # US1244711 Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2
The layout we came up with is relatively simple. Its project based. For the project foo it would look like this:
foo - General list about the project foo in english foo-<lang> - General list about the project foo in <language> I would suggest to just use foo-<lang>, using the 2 letter abbreviation for the languages such as in locale settings, including english. Just for uniformity. foo-users - Support list for the project foo in english foo-users-<lang> - Support list for the project foo in <language> foo-<topic> - List for the topic <topic> in english foo-<topic>-<lang> - List for the topic <topic> in <language>
This is a layout that scales[1]. We have several projects hosted on lists.suse.com (suse, taskjuggler, packet-writing, m17n, etc.), a lot of topics (announce, support, KDE, isdn, etc.) and a lot of languages (english, german, spanish, japanese etc.) that are used on the lists. At the moment this is a mess and with the new layout we would sort this out. One other suggestion or comment is it is unclear to me ATM as to what
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Henne Vogelsang wrote: the difference would be between the general project and the users lists. I think I would suggest keeping the users to give more definition but maybe not have the general, or to drop users altogether since some names could get quite long and users would seem redundant.
I would like to do it the followingg way:
First i migrate all users to the new list and then we rename the list and move it to the new server. The new server will accept both listnames but send mails only from the new one. So mails send to suse-linux-e@suse.com will come back from the list opensuse-users@opensuse.org. After some time (3-6 months) i turn off the old listname. The setup stays the same except that the listname will change. This would mean we do both steps at once. Move the list technically and rename it.
I think this would be the best in the long run, but a lot of work for you!
[1] The german list is suggesting to not do the -users list. So suse-linux becomes opensuse-de and this list would become opensuse@opensuse.org. The only thing that keeps me from doing that is that i would blow up the already established opensuse list to the size of SLE. But thinking about it this should really be a problem or? I agree with them. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org
iD8DBQFFTzR4SllW3IopKeMRAqALAJ9D2T3q7x1AaqZrhseJAl6ydC8dbgCgjKYU Ph2yzzKyJbdHNYpJ7S/u/c4= =hSRf -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
On Monday November 6 2006 5:57 am, Henne Vogelsang wrote:
Hey Peepz,
Yo, Henne, whaz-up? Migrate it all at once. The new system works well enough and the searchable archive is worth whatever minor annoyances may occur.
foo - General list about the project foo in english
No. Include the *-en so there is no confusion.
foo-<lang> - General list about the project foo in <language>
All languages including English with the 2 character locale code as Joe Morris suggests.
I really would like to do it both at once. What do you think?
Yes.
Henne
You are the best. Thanks to whoever sabotaged (just kidding!) the current server so you can get it migrated over to the new way. Thanks for all your work on these mailing lists.
[1] The german list is suggesting to not do the -users list. So suse-linux becomes opensuse-de and this list would become opensuse@opensuse.org. The only thing that keeps me from doing that is that i would blow up the already established opensuse list to the size of SLE. But thinking about it this should really be a problem or?
That makes the most sense _if_ you include the *-en on all the English language lists. Stan
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 The Monday 2006-11-06 at 08:34 -0600, Stan Glasoe wrote:
That makes the most sense _if_ you include the *-en on all the English language lists.
Yes. The "-e" in this list has been confused sometimes por "español", for instance. The standard two letter code is much better. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Made with pgp4pine 1.76 iD8DBQFFT0pttTMYHG2NR9URApYdAJ49IdpzPAgqZkMcbySYrFXQw13q6gCfebRN 5yuTOV1DjWxU8382jqEMx0Q= =/Vsz -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
Carlos E. R. wrote:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1
The Monday 2006-11-06 at 08:34 -0600, Stan Glasoe wrote:
That makes the most sense _if_ you include the *-en on all the English language lists.
Yes. The "-e" in this list has been confused sometimes por "español", for instance. The standard two letter code is much better.
I concur. Migrate all at once and use a 2-letter standard country code to identify which language is used in the forum. Cheers. -- "If the terrier and the bariffs are torn down, this economy will grow." George W. Bush January 2000
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 The Monday 2006-11-06 at 12:57 +0100, Henne Vogelsang wrote: ...
The layout we came up with is relatively simple. Its project based. For the project foo it would look like this:
foo - General list about the project foo in english foo-<lang> - General list about the project foo in <language>
I would rather you used "foo-en" as well. Much clearer and consistent. Same for the rest of the layout.
foo-users - Support list for the project foo in english
How about "foo-support-en"? If it is for support, use that word. ...
I really would like to do it both at once. What do you think?
Do whatever method is safer from your view/side as admin. The one less problem/error prone, or with less emails lost. Dunno about the most "flame retardant" ;-) :-P
How it would work you can test on opensuse-test@opensuse.org and suse-test@suse.com. Subscribing works with the usual addresses:
opensuse-test+subscribe@opensuse.org suse-test-subscribe@opensuse.org
What I would like is to know in advance the string we should use for sorting at our side, as an official email sent the last before closing. For instance: "X-Mailinglist: suse-linux-e"
Details on how to use the new mailinglist server i wrote up while we were migrating the opensuse lists.
http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-announce/2006-08/msg00005.html
I think this is it. Im looking forward to your feedback on this matter :)
I have forwarded and translated your email to the Spanish list, but not the server instructions from the link above.
[1] The german list is suggesting to not do the -users list. So suse-linux becomes opensuse-de and this list would become opensuse@opensuse.org. The only thing that keeps me from doing that is that i would blow up the already established opensuse list to the size of SLE. But thinking about it this should really be a problem or?
I don't really understand what is the difference between suse-linux-e@ and opensuse@, specially after the -project and -factory lists. Of course, I would prefer opensuse-en@ for consistence. One thing I miss is a brief description line in the html archive for each list. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Made with pgp4pine 1.76 iD8DBQFFT1ObtTMYHG2NR9URAnmDAJ97GxLeiyn7j3SYJpBAiuiw2395UQCeIT1t VW5FfYUMbDezwqnXZOtZCLQ= =wTaj -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
On 2006-11-06 09:24, Gandalf the Grey O:-) wrote:
I would rather you used "foo-en" as well. Much clearer and consistent. Same for the rest of the layout.
Ditto.
I really would like to do it both at once. What do you think?
Do whatever method is safer from your view/side as admin. The one less problem/error prone, or with less emails lost. Dunno about the most "flame retardant"
Henne has to be pretty flame retardent -- he's been reading all our emails about the [SPAM] droppings in the subject lines :-)
What I would like is to know in advance the string we should use for sorting at our side, as an official email sent the last before closing. For instance:
"X-Mailinglist: suse-linux-e"
Agreed; otherwise, a lot of message filters will be broken, and Henne will really get a chance to test his flame-retardent clothes :-)
At 03:09 PM 11/6/2006 -0600, Darryl Gregorash wrote:
On 2006-11-06 09:24, Gandalf the Grey O:-) wrote:
I would rather you used "foo-en" as well. Much clearer and consistent. Same for the rest of the layout.
Ditto.
I really would like to do it both at once. What do you think?
Do whatever method is safer from your view/side as admin. The one less problem/error prone, or with less emails lost. Dunno about the most "flame retardant"
Henne has to be pretty flame retardent -- he's been reading all our emails about the [SPAM] droppings in the subject lines :-)
What I would like is to know in advance the string we should use for sorting at our side, as an official email sent the last before closing. For instance:
"X-Mailinglist: suse-linux-e"
Agreed; otherwise, a lot of message filters will be broken, and Henne will really get a chance to test his flame-retardent clothes :-)
I know that I'm fairly clueless here. I've been fooling with Linux for about 10 years, and I still need a lot of help. I never learned Unix. First off, what do you mean by a "project?" If that is something for developers, there should be a separate list for them. Most of us probably never developed anything more than a simple program in BASIC or Pascal, or maybe even C-- a couple of pages of code, maybe. Next, why do you want to have a category called "users?" Aren't we all users? Or are some just sys-admins and don't actually use the system? Next, again, why do you want to divide the list into particular questions, or topics, as it seems to be. Those who don't know the names of the questions will never hear what they are, or hear the answers. Finally, will there be any way that the clueless can get access to the entire list, like we can now, with suse-linux-e@suse.com? And, is Open Suse supposed to replace the Suse Pro that we have now, and if so, will it come in a box with some sort of manual, or will it only be available for download, and also, will it have proprietary software, like OO, or will it just be an OS with no software? (I suppose that M/S will SELL software that runs on Suse. All patented and needing to be registered. And probably the license will expire in a year and need to be renewed, for $$$.) Maybe I have missed the point, but if not, in a famous quotation, "I'se regusted!" --doug
Hi, On Monday, November 06, 2006 at 21:06:58, Doug McGarrett wrote:
First off, what do you mean by a "project?"
Projects are projects. openSUSE is a project, KDE is a project, the kernel is a project. I want to be able to host different projects mailinglists on the server. Thats why each lists name start with the projects name.
Next, why do you want to have a category called "users?" Aren't we all users? Or are some just sys-admins and don't actually use the system?
users lists are fairly common in the mailinglist layouts of projects. Thats why i thought we might introduce them. But apparently no one wants them.
Next, again, why do you want to divide the list into particular questions, or topics, as it seems to be.
There is a need for special topic lists. We already have them (suse-kde, suse-isdn, suse-multimedia etc.), so i need to incorporate them in the layout.
Finally, will there be any way that the clueless can get access to the entire list, like we can now, with suse-linux-e@suse.com?
I dont want to split suse-linux-e. Im talking about a general mailinglist layout.
And, is Open Suse supposed to replace the Suse Pro that we have now,
Wake up :) It did that like a year ago. With alpha3 of 10.2 even in the name.
and if so, will it come in a box with some sort of manual, or will it only be available for download, and also, will it have proprietary software
As usual you get both. Nothing changed there. Maybe you want to read www.opensuse.org a little bit to get to know what openSUSE means. Henne -- Henne Vogelsang, http://hennevogel.de "To die. In the rain. Alone." Ernest Hemingway
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 The Tuesday 2006-11-07 at 09:56 +0100, Henne Vogelsang wrote: [reordered to make a point]
Projects are projects. openSUSE is a project, KDE is a project, the kernel is a project. I want to be able to host different projects mailinglists on the server. Thats why each lists name start with the projects name. ... There is a need for special topic lists. We already have them (suse-kde, suse-isdn, suse-multimedia etc.), so i need to incorporate them in the layout.
Then, what the difference beetween kde as project or as topic? We come from different cultures and languages, and I don't have clear the differences.
users lists are fairly common in the mailinglist layouts of projects. Thats why i thought we might introduce them. But apparently no one wants them.
Did we say that? :-? This suse-linux-e is a user's list, right? I don't see what is wrong about this kind of list. The only thing I doubt is if the best name is "users" or "support". - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Made with pgp4pine 1.76 iD8DBQFFUHMutTMYHG2NR9URAp7dAJ9lY69fZS/bNcAOwao7vSnE64PS3ACdHBue hYganuNJTrC7KFdj+6c0Cxw= =b2De -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
Hi, On Tuesday, November 07, 2006 at 12:51:08, Carlos E. R. wrote:
The Tuesday 2006-11-07 at 09:56 +0100, Henne Vogelsang wrote:
[reordered to make a point]
Projects are projects. openSUSE is a project, KDE is a project, the kernel is a project. I want to be able to host different projects mailinglists on the server. Thats why each lists name start with the projects name. ... There is a need for special topic lists. We already have them (suse-kde, suse-isdn, suse-multimedia etc.), so i need to incorporate them in the layout.
Then, what the difference beetween kde as project or as topic?
We dont host the mailinglists of the KDE project. We host the mailinglists of the opensuse project (that has a topic list about KDE).
users lists are fairly common in the mailinglist layouts of projects. Thats why i thought we might introduce them. But apparently no one wants them.
Did we say that? :-?
Yes you did. Everyone that spoke up said he wants opensuse@opensuse.org or opensuse-en@opensuse.org. Not opensuse-users@opensuse.org.
This suse-linux-e is a user's list, right? I don't see what is wrong about this kind of list.
Absolutely nothing :) Henne -- Henne Vogelsang, Core Services "Rules change. The Game remains the same." - Omar (The Wire)
Ok, I'll comment. Henne Vogelsang wrote:
Hi,
On Tuesday, November 07, 2006 at 12:51:08, Carlos E. R. wrote:
The Tuesday 2006-11-07 at 09:56 +0100, Henne Vogelsang wrote:
[reordered to make a point] ...
users lists are fairly common in the mailinglist layouts of projects. Thats why i thought we might introduce them. But apparently no one wants them. Did we say that? :-?
Yes you did. Everyone that spoke up said he wants opensuse@opensuse.org or opensuse-en@opensuse.org. Not opensuse-users@opensuse.org.
OK, I'm speaking up. I thought suse-linux-e _was_ the "users" list. So I've subscribed to it. I'm also subscribed to suse-security and suse-amd64. I also subscribed briefly to suse-autoinstall, but decided it wasn't something I ever expect to use, so I unsubscribed. I like that arrangement, and would like to see it continue, even if things are renamed, as long as the names make sense. If it doesn't put too much burden on you, it helps me order my list reading to see the topic in subject line. I've appreciated this aspect of the suse lists. -- John Perry
On 2006-11-07 08:37, Henne Vogelsang wrote:
Hi,
On Tuesday, November 07, 2006 at 12:51:08, Carlos E. R. wrote:
<snip> Then, what the difference beetween kde as project or as topic?
We dont host the mailinglists of the KDE project. We host the mailinglists of the opensuse project (that has a topic list about KDE).
Now you're confusing me! Doesn't opensuse.org have its own KDE team? That makes KDE a project at opensuse.org. We don't need to be concerned that they are probably working very closely with the people at kde.org. Thus: opensuse.org has a project called KDE, and so there is an opensuse-kde mailing list (whose topic is now obvious). If I sense the mood of the masses correctly, there should actually be a collection of opensuse-kde-<lang> lists.
users lists are fairly common in the mailinglist layouts of projects. Thats why i thought we might introduce them. But apparently no one wants them.
Did we say that? :-?
Yes you did. Everyone that spoke up said he wants opensuse@opensuse.org or opensuse-en@opensuse.org. Not opensuse-users@opensuse.org.
Umm, no, I think we said we want opensuse-en@opensuse.org. There may be lists such as opensuse-translation for which no localized version is wanted, but where such versions do exist, we prefer to see consistency: in general, opensuse-<topic>-<lang>.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 The Tuesday 2006-11-07 at 11:17 -0600, Darryl Gregorash wrote:
Then, what the difference beetween kde as project or as topic?
We dont host the mailinglists of the KDE project. We host the mailinglists of the opensuse project (that has a topic list about KDE).
Now you're confusing me! Doesn't opensuse.org have its own KDE team? That makes KDE a project at opensuse.org. We don't need to be concerned that they are probably working very closely with the people at kde.org.
Thus: opensuse.org has a project called KDE, and so there is an opensuse-kde mailing list (whose topic is now obvious). If I sense the mood of the masses correctly, there should actually be a collection of opensuse-kde-<lang> lists.
My confusion arouse because Henne mentioned both kde as a project and as a topic in his explanation, and the difference is not clear. Perhaps the project is the first word, and the topic the second? As in "foo-topic-en@...?
users lists are fairly common in the mailinglist layouts of projects. Thats why i thought we might introduce them. But apparently no one wants them.
Did we say that? :-?
Yes you did. Everyone that spoke up said he wants opensuse@opensuse.org or opensuse-en@opensuse.org. Not opensuse-users@opensuse.org.
Umm, no, I think we said we want opensuse-en@opensuse.org. There may be lists such as opensuse-translation for which no localized version is wanted, but where such versions do exist, we prefer to see consistency: in general, opensuse-<topic>-<lang>.
Exactly. Also, for the record, I don't object to opensuse-users-en@opensuse.org, just that it wasn't directly proposed. But I remember the confussion and arguments in that list betweeen the "list is a project list" and the "list is a support list" folks, so that opensuse@... had to split to opensuse-project@... If it were renamed as a -users-en there could not be such a problem in the future. I did say that the "foo-users" idea was good, and I wondered about "foo-support". Also, even if now there is no need for an localized translation lists, it would be better for consistency to use the -en suffix as well. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Made with pgp4pine 1.76 iD8DBQFFUNQ+tTMYHG2NR9URAj8iAJ0SHfjE1RWE+gm6gcwCvq1QU1RcRQCfXamo YSZkpx13+E8Z7xOYXkfipdk= =4Yof -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
into electronic streams flowing thru the cosmos On Monday 06 November 2006 6:57 am, Henne Vogelsang wrote:
Hey Peepz, Moin Moin Henne, ;) <snip>
[1] The german list is suggesting to not do the -users list. So suse-linux becomes opensuse-de and this list would become opensuse@opensuse.org. The only thing that keeps me from doing that is that i would blow up the already established opensuse list to the size of SLE. But thinking about it this should really be a problem or?
However you wish to do it will be fine w/ me.. The more effortless you try make it , the more effort you will wind up putting into it. So far it looks as if you have a plan that makes sense and ease of administration as well as scale. So once you decide to make the jump to hyperspace be sure and send up a flare as an announcement .. ( I need to change some filters when there is an address change to the list itself.. ) However, that is relatively trivial, so long as I know when to do it... one general announcement if you move all lists at once yeah, I can live w/ that ;) -- j It's bigger than the both of us and deeper than the sea Tossing on the water riding destiny Bigger than the both of us; Farther than the eye can see We're dancing, our souls are dancing Infinity
participants (11)
-
Basil Chupin -
Carlos E. R. -
Darryl Gregorash -
Doug McGarrett -
Henne Vogelsang -
Henne Vogelsang -
jfweber＠gilweber.com -
Joe Morris (Local) -
John E. Perry -
Patrick Shanahan -
Stan Glasoe