On Tuesday 10 March 2009 19:14:27 John Andersen wrote:

Personally, I'd like to see a sliding window which would allow two or three additional months if the Quality is not there.

Mod parent UP! This is exactly what's needed. "It will be released when it's ready" Sound familiar to anyone? :-) JW -- ---------------------- System Administrator - Cedar Creek Software http://www.cedarcreeksoftware.com -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Tue, Mar 10, 2009 at 10:10 PM, Ken Schneider - openSUSE wrote:

How can 11.2 be 11 months away on an 8 month cycle? Since 11.1 was released December 2008 11.2 will be released in July 2009.

Because it's 8 months from NOW, not when 11.1 was released. Looks like they have been too busy fixing 11.1 to even do much towards 11.2, which is why I completely agree with the 8 month cycle. IMO, build quality isn't up to the pre-openSUSE versions. I'm glad we have more imput as a community, but 11.1 is a mess.

I have 11.1 installed with Nvidia and KDE 3.x without problems using the drivers supplied by Nvidia in their repository.

ou must be one of the lucky ones. I'm running the beta drivers on 11.0 and haven't seen any problems, but I'm using KDE3.5, and not really doinganything 3d.

Ken Schneider SuSe since Version 5.2, June 1998

S.u.S.E. since Version 5.3, Early 1999. Hoping to stay that way............ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Tuesday, 2009-03-10 at 22:10 -0400, Ken Schneider - openSUSE wrote:

...

...

And the rest who had a hand in settling on an 8 month release cycle to replace the six-month shotgun approach that has seemingly killed QA for every distribution that has tried it. Good job.

But that means that 11.2 is eleven-months away!

How can 11.2 be 11 months away on an 8 month cycle? Since 11.1 was released December 2008 11.2 will be released in July 2009.

11.2 will be released November 2009. The delay is to compensate for the summer vacation time (and another delay for xtmas, I understand). The published schedule is: November 2009: "Fichte" 11.2 July 2010: "Rousseau" 11.3 March 2011: "Voltaire" 12.0 November 2011: "Lessing" 12.1 and round again, fixed. - -- Cheers, Carlos Robinson -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkm3KHsACgkQtTMYHG2NR9VlcQCeMrYLBqFyIdKkG2ZgmFMaJoRq RqQAnjyXcCpK6XjXsQD9BeaXt8u3zBvv =tItD -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Wed, Mar 11, 2009 at 03:25:55AM -0500, David C. Rankin wrote:

Ken Schneider - openSUSE wrote:

...

Lew Wolfgang pecked at the keyboard and wrote:

...

David C. Rankin wrote:

...

Kuddos to the Project Team,

And the rest who had a hand in settling on an 8 month release cycle to replace the six-month shotgun approach that has seemingly killed QA for every distribution that has tried it. Good job. But that means that 11.2 is eleven-months away!

How can 11.2 be 11 months away on an 8 month cycle? Since 11.1 was released December 2008 11.2 will be released in July 2009.

That's the best part, 11.2 is slated for November 2009 release. Let's see how much unscrewing up can be done for a clean working 11.2.

...

...

I've just completely given up on 11.1 for new installations going to regular users, so I guess we'll have time to really become comfy with 11.0.

Yep, I've resigned to being comfy with 11.0 (which I am) until 11.2 arrives. I can't spend 2 hours out of every day writing bug reports. (though some days I do)

It's been a while since we have had an openSuSE release where you just loaded it and pretty much everything just worked. 10.0 (SuSE) and 10.3 are the last 2 that come to mind. I see the extended release cycle as curing a lot of the raggedness of the past 2 releases.

This is very strange, both 11.0 and 11.1 work fine for me and are better then their predecessors... :/ (ok, discounting KDE 4...) Ciao, Marcus -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Verner Kjærsgaard wrote:

Marcus Meissner skrev:

...

On Wed, Mar 11, 2009 at 03:25:55AM -0500, David C. Rankin wrote:

...

Ken Schneider - openSUSE wrote:

...

Lew Wolfgang pecked at the keyboard and wrote:

...

David C. Rankin wrote:

...

Kuddos to the Project Team,

And the rest who had a hand in settling on an 8 month release cycle to replace the six-month shotgun approach that has seemingly killed QA for every distribution that has tried it. Good job.

But that means that 11.2 is eleven-months away! How can 11.2 be 11 months away on an 8 month cycle? Since 11.1 was released December 2008 11.2 will be released in July 2009.

That's the best part, 11.2 is slated for November 2009 release. Let's see how much unscrewing up can be done for a clean working 11.2.

...

...

I've just completely given up on 11.1 for new installations going to regular users, so I guess we'll have time to really become comfy with 11.0.

Yep, I've resigned to being comfy with 11.0 (which I am) until 11.2 arrives. I can't spend 2 hours out of every day writing bug reports. (though some days I do)

It's been a while since we have had an openSuSE release where you just loaded it and pretty much everything just worked. 10.0 (SuSE) and 10.3 are the last 2 that come to mind. I see the extended release cycle as curing a lot of the raggedness of the past 2 releases.

This is very strange, both 11.0 and 11.1 work fine for me and are better then their predecessors... :/ (ok, discounting KDE 4...)

Ciao, Marcus

Dear listmates,

- please allow me this humble statement, do not flame me..

- whenever a mate of mine says "pls install Linux on my new laptop, I wish to get rid of Windows for whatever reason(s)", I install Ubuntu. I'm not very pleased to do this. But my experience is "it generally just works". Ok, I need to install propietary drivers and VLC, but that's just about it.

openSuSE is my professional choice. Absolutely.

But I have a "feeling" that sometimes things are rushed out the door, most likely due to some (Novell?) suits, pressing people to do so. Quality suffers. So the Linux Torvalds line "...release when it's ready" would perhaps differentiate openSusE from the rest.

One example is the dreadfull story about Knetworkmanager, which now and then causes trouble (I've been told that it's being worked uppon as of writing). In Ubuntu, I've never had any wireless troubles at all.

Mind you, I'm certainly NOT picking on the developers, they do a GREAT job. I wish I had the programming skills that these guys have :-) But I am picking on the mantra that says fixed dates of releases.

NO flaming from me!! I don't give a rats hindend about anything but STABILITY, EASE of installation, and NO dependency Hell!!! The latter has really become a big pain in the butt of late!! Fred -- "The fundamental premise of liberalism is the moral and rational incapacity of the American people." ~ Fred Miller -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Carlos E. R. wrote:

On Wednesday, 2009-03-11 at 10:09 +0100, Marcus Meissner wrote:

...

This is very strange, both 11.0 and 11.1 work fine for me and are better then their predecessors... :/ (ok, discounting KDE 4...)

Well... 11.0 corupts external HD formated as reiserfs, via USB. 11.1 crashed till the last kernel updated if you had a reiserfs and beagle was running.

I've heard reiserfs can kill more than just the file system... /ducks! -- kai www.perfectreign.com | www.ecmplace.com www.twitter.com/PerfectReign -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Wednesday 11 March 2009, Rajko M. wrote:

On Wednesday 11 March 2009 11:42:57 am Kai Ponte wrote:

...

Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

On Wednesday, 2009-03-11 at 10:09 +0100, Marcus Meissner wrote:

...

This is very strange, both 11.0 and 11.1 work fine for me and are

better then

...

their predecessors... :/ (ok, discounting KDE 4...)

Well... 11.0 corupts external HD formated as reiserfs, via USB. 11.1 crashed till the last kernel updated if you had a reiserfs and beagle was running.

I've heard reiserfs can kill more than just the file system...

s/reiserfs/Reiser/

(ducks, too ;) )

-- Regards, Rajko

Incomming NUKE big badaboom :-) In shelter Pete . -- Opensuse 10.3 x86_64 (Linux is like a wigwam no Gates, no Windows, and an Apache inside.) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Wed, Mar 11, 2009 at 12:42 PM, Kai Ponte wrote:

...

Well... 11.0 corupts external HD formated as reiserfs, via USB. 11.1 crashed till the last kernel updated if you had a reiserfs and beagle was running.

I've heard reiserfs can kill more than just the file system...

The problem was BEAGLE, not resier. reiser has been one of the most stable and fastest file systems for a long time. SuSE standardized on it for a reason. I wouldn't run ext3 on anything because it's nowhere near as fast or stable as reiser. The only time i have ever lost data on a reiserfs is when I got a bad sector in the fstab of the partition, and I was able to recover it with dd_rescue. And that's using it for almost 10 years. Haven't seen any other fs recover from a bad poweroff faster than reiser. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Wed, Mar 11, 2009 at 9:12 PM, Randall R Schulz wrote:

(I think Kai was referring to Hans Reiser's murder conviction.)

Yeah, I know. I was trying to overlook that tasteless comment with a nicely reasoned reply.

Operating systems are strongly stratified, and for a reason. If the kernel panics whenever you run a particular application, it is _not_ that application's problem. If Beagle can trigger a crash, then the bug is, by definition, in the kernel or in a file system or a device driver.

To me, the problem was Beagle. It is in itself a problem. It's just another pointless desktop search that is installed on more systems that most users don't know is there or why and will never be used. Too many things are being taken for granted in SuSE anymore. Beagle was way too buggy to have been included when it was, but they did it anyway. Like KDE4. That's what is hurting the quality of SuSE. Trying to slam in too many new useless features instead of working on stability. People used to pick SuSE because they knew it was stable and robust, not because it always had the latest and greatest. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Wed, Mar 11, 2009 at 9:22 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:

Not true. Beagle simply used a feature that was broken in reiser, perhaps because nobody before had used it. And guess what? Finally they found what was wrong in the kernel and corrected it. Nothing was broken on beagle. It is a confirmed reiserfs implementation bug.

Ok, I stand corrected. But, IF beagle wasn't forced as a default install, then that problem wouldn't have been such a problem. Like I just replied to Randall, Beagle wasn't ready to be in a released version of SuSE. It was pushed in just like KDE4 before it was stable(not ready - stable). Finding an fixing an unknown issue in reiser only helps that system, but having a useless and unused app be the problem isn't much better of a reason.

That was true previously, but not currently. I "love" that filesystem, but the current implementation is starting to break and fail on several places. For instance, I have external media (USB) formatted as reiserfs, and it gets corrupted every time I write to it from 11.0. So badly corrupted that it takes several hours to fsck and repair. It was fine under 10.3, and seems to work under 11.1.

I haven't noticed any issues like that, but I generally have my external media in FAT32/NTFS in order to use it with WinDoZe. Since USB is slow anyway, I've never been worried about using a faster fs on it.

I have more bugs reported against reiserfs :-(

And, since no one is bothering to maintain it very well, they may never get fixed. Maybe ext4 will live up to the hype. There are newer and more interesting fs's coming that will hopefully be worthwhile replacements for reiser. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Wed, Mar 11, 2009 at 11:34 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:

We are talking of 11.1, beagle is a mature app by now. Teenager if you like. And I like and use it. You don't? Then uninstall it.

That's not the issue. The issue is why is it installed by default when the majority of users don't use it. So, it's wasting cpu cycles indexing when it's not used and wanted. Just like all the desktop searches I find installed on WinDoZe machines. I'll ask the customer and they'll look like a deer in front of the headlights. They have no clue what it is or how it go to be installed and never used it or even knew it was there.

I'm not talking of small flash devices used to share with windows, I'm talking of big disks used for Linux backup, with Linux filesystem attributes that FAT can not save.

My backups are over the network onto another machine.

And that's not the point, the point is that reiserfs, today, is buggy.

And with all the publicity about the creator, no one is acting like they want to work on it. Which will always be a problem with open source stuff. When interest wanes, or priorities change, stuff becomes abandoned. Oh well. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Thu, Mar 12, 2009 at 9:44 AM, Carlos E. R. wrote:

Just uninstall it and be happy.

That's the probkem. You can't do it because of all the dependencies in a lot of cases. Beagle yes, avahi and others no. Of course, I can remember when you couldn't uninstall openoffice because it was a dependency, so........

Not everybody has a host of networked machines. And actually, transfer by usb is a bit faster than a 100 mbit network.

But not gigabit, which I have but need a switch to complete......and I'm not dissing usb storage, I just don't make use of it too much except between machines that have windows. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

reiser has been one of the most stable and fastest file systems for a long time.

That was true previously, but not currently. I "love" that filesystem, but the current implementation is starting to break and fail on several places.

For instance, I have external media (USB) formatted as reiserfs, and it gets corrupted every time I write to it from 11.0. So badly corrupted that it takes several hours to fsck and repair. It was fine under 10.3, and seems to work under 11.1.

I have more bugs reported against reiserfs :-(

In all seriousness, 9.1 and 9.2 with Reiser ran just fine. 9.3 blew up on me several times on different machines when booting. I'd have to fsck my disks to get back to life. 10 - 10.2 were fine, but I switched to EXT3 on my 10.3 and 11.1 machines. I've been just fine. (None have beagle running, but I do have a poodle mix now.) -- kai www.perfectreign.com | www.ecmplace.com www.twitter.com/PerfectReign -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On 11 March 09, Larry Stotler wrote:

On Wed, Mar 11, 2009 at 12:42 PM, Kai Ponte wrote:

...

...

Well... 11.0 corupts external HD formated as reiserfs, via USB. 11.1 crashed till the last kernel updated if you had a reiserfs and beagle was running.

I've heard reiserfs can kill more than just the file system...

The problem was BEAGLE, not resier. reiser has been one of the most stable and fastest file systems for a long time. SuSE standardized on it for a reason. I wouldn't run ext3 on anything because it's nowhere near as fast or stable as reiser. The only time i have ever lost data on a reiserfs is when I got a bad sector in the fstab of the partition, and I was able to recover it with dd_rescue. And that's using it for almost 10 years. Haven't seen any other fs recover from a bad poweroff faster than reiser.

I've used reiser since 7.3 and have yet to have *any* problems with it. Absolutely none, and I've had quite a few power outages hit me when I didn't have a UPS hooked up...reiser rebooted, did whatever it does and I was going about my business as if nothing had happened. I love reiser and it's just another reason I'll stay with 10.3 and go no further on opensuse release since Carlos seems to be having more and more problems with it on everything above 10.3. That's good enough for me to go no further. Beagle, on 10.3 just plain sucked and I removed it as soon as I found out what the heck was slowing my system down so badly. That's all I needed to learn or do about Beagle since then, heh. -- Stupidity should be unbearably painful! -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

I can remember one several years ago that made the filesystem crash if you happened to have two certain filenames in the same directory, different names that reiserfs thought were the /same/ name. It was solved fast.

All things equal, this is a point in favor of reiserfs, not against. There was a critical bug, and it was patched quickly. Or do you expect software to not have bugs at all? Of course, now that the lead dev is no writing code, the situation may change. I do not know who is maintaining v4 and how responsive they are to critical bugs. -- Dotan Cohen http://what-is-what.com http://gibberish.co.il א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-נ-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת ا-ب-ت-ث-ج-ح-خ-د-ذ-ر-ز-س-ش-ص-ض-ط-ظ-ع-غ-ف-ق-ك-ل-م-ن-ه‍-و-ي А-Б-В-Г-Д-Е-Ё-Ж-З-И-Й-К-Л-М-Н-О-П-Р-С-Т-У-Ф-Х-Ц-Ч-Ш-Щ-Ъ-Ы-Ь-Э-Ю-Я а-б-в-г-д-е-ё-ж-з-и-й-к-л-м-н-о-п-р-с-т-у-ф-х-ц-ч-ш-щ-ъ-ы-ь-э-ю-я ä-ö-ü-ß-Ä-Ö-Ü N�����r��y隊Z)z{.�ﮞ˛���m�)z{.��+�Z+i�b�*'jW(�f�vǦj)h���Ǿ��i�������

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Dotan Cohen wrote:

...

I can remember one several years ago that made the filesystem crash if you happened to have two certain filenames in the same directory, different names that reiserfs thought were the /same/ name. It was solved fast.

All things equal, this is a point in favor of reiserfs, not against. There was a critical bug, and it was patched quickly. Or do you expect software to not have bugs at all?

Thats my point, that that bug several years ago was solved promptly. Current bugs are alive. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.1-ex-factory) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEARECAAYFAkm5D8YACgkQU92UU+smfQWQWwCffJihHIRD4Od/1Ndj/Zwqxrtu eiIAn0qu/sJffyagM/TBC6u9yvZtW7i8 =rWCL -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 JB2 wrote:

On 12 March 09, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

JB2 wrote:

...

I've used reiser since 7.3 and have yet to have *any* problems with it.

You have been lucky.

Luck, I don't believe, has anything to do with it, especially during 9 years of use.

Yes, you have been lucky in not chancing to use one of the broken features.

...

It is a very good filesystem, I use it, I like it, but don't say it has no bugs. It is simply not true.

I never said it has no bugs. I said *I* like it because it's worked so well for *me*.

You said it has no problems. That's not exact, you just haven't bumped into them. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.1-ex-factory) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEARECAAYFAkm5rmsACgkQU92UU+smfQVGNwCfZ0i4HVIhLCNd78b3jmhu3rwO f4IAn0LSxP8Wl5/HeDmOxoa0n83PpYVy =hMeB -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Marcus Meissner wrote:

On Wed, Mar 11, 2009 at 03:25:55AM -0500, David C. Rankin wrote:

...

Ken Schneider - openSUSE wrote:

...

Lew Wolfgang pecked at the keyboard and wrote:

...

David C. Rankin wrote:

...

Kuddos to the Project Team,

And the rest who had a hand in settling on an 8 month release cycle to replace the six-month shotgun approach that has seemingly killed QA for every distribution that has tried it. Good job. But that means that 11.2 is eleven-months away! How can 11.2 be 11 months away on an 8 month cycle? Since 11.1 was released December 2008 11.2 will be released in July 2009.

That's the best part, 11.2 is slated for November 2009 release. Let's see how much unscrewing up can be done for a clean working 11.2.

...

...

I've just completely given up on 11.1 for new installations going to regular users, so I guess we'll have time to really become comfy with 11.0.

Yep, I've resigned to being comfy with 11.0 (which I am) until 11.2 arrives. I can't spend 2 hours out of every day writing bug reports. (though some days I do)

It's been a while since we have had an openSuSE release where you just loaded it and pretty much everything just worked. 10.0 (SuSE) and 10.3 are the last 2 that come to mind. I see the extended release cycle as curing a lot of the raggedness of the past 2 releases.

This is very strange, both 11.0 and 11.1 work fine for me and are better then their predecessors... :/ (ok, discounting KDE 4...)

Ciao, Marcus

I would have included 11.0 except for the sever QA lapses -- Yast ncurses fields so small you can't see the text, the apparently 'forgotten' accelerator keys, broken package search, abort that doesn't, skip refresh that doesn't, broken dhcpd update of DNS, etc.. Otherwise, 11.0 is my favorite release to date. 11.1 core server apps are great, and... I'll stop there. -- David C. Rankin, J.D.,P.E. Rankin Law Firm, PLLC 510 Ochiltree Street Nacogdoches, Texas 75961 Telephone: (936) 715-9333 Facsimile: (936) 715-9339 www.rankinlawfirm.com -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Kai Ponte wrote:

David C. Rankin wrote:

...

Yep, I've resigned to being comfy with 11.0 (which I am) until 11.2 arrives. I can't spend 2 hours out of every day writing bug reports. (though some days I do)

Two-hour bug reports?

The older I get, the slower I get...

What exactly are you doing with your 11.1 system??

Trying to get fish to work with quanta on kde4....

11.1 is humming along just fine on my son's laptop. I just turned it off this morning for the first time in over a week. I use it - along with my primary laptop - pretty much every night.

It's getting there, but it has taken since December 18th to get to this point. When it was released, if it didn't black screen then it black cubed repeatedly doing something a simple a taking a screenshot with ksnapshot -- remember? ;-) http://www.3111skyline.com/download/openSUSE_11.1/compizcrash-blackcube.jpg -- David C. Rankin, J.D.,P.E. Rankin Law Firm, PLLC 510 Ochiltree Street Nacogdoches, Texas 75961 Telephone: (936) 715-9333 Facsimile: (936) 715-9339 www.rankinlawfirm.com -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Thursday 12 March 2009, Rajko M. wrote:

On Thursday 12 March 2009 12:50:35 am David C. Rankin wrote:

...

When it was released, if it didn't black screen then it black cubed repeatedly doing something a simple a taking a screenshot with ksnapshot -- remember? ;-)

http://www.3111skyline.com/download/openSUSE_11.1/compizcrash-black cube.jpg

Cool. How you did it?

Not sure how he did it, but I'd like to know how he got the screenshot of the crashed cube.. Mike -- Powered by SuSE 11.0 Kernel 2.6.25 KDE 3.5 Kmail 1.9 8:59am up 18:20, 2 users, load average: 0.10, 0.35, 0.69 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

David C. Rankin wrote: [snip]

Yep, I've resigned to being comfy with 11.0 (which I am) until 11.2 arrives. I can't spend 2 hours out of every day writing bug reports. (though some days I do)

It's been a while since we have had an openSuSE release where you just loaded it and pretty much everything just worked. 10.0 (SuSE) and 10.3 are the last 2 that come to mind. I see the extended release cycle as curing a lot of the raggedness of the past 2 releases.

We can ALL hope!! ;) We might even have some more decent screen savers by 11.2.......naw....more like 11.3. And, maybe we can update to the latest OpenOffice without dependency issues......maybe? ;) Fred -- "The fundamental premise of liberalism is the moral and rational incapacity of the American people." ~ Fred Miller -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

JB2 wrote:

Yep, Slackware looks good once this 10.3 dies/breaks on me, however long that may take. I hate it too that I'm leaning this way because SuSE really was the best, but since ~9.3 it's gone downhill fast.

You could always try Windows 7. It may be available later this year. I'm sure you'll like it... Regards, Lew -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

...

You could always try Windows 7.  It may be available later this year.  I'm sure you'll like it..

... and maybe it will just work without pulling your hair out.

I know that you are kidding, but I tried Windows 7 and I liked it. Well, I liked the new features (task bar, and windows management), but it is still buggy Windows as ever. Clicking on a file opens the feature to RENAME it. WTF? It's as if MS expects users to rename fiels about as often as they open files. And then I tried to open a .doc file. Did you know that Windows does not come with any application that can read .doc files? Even Suse can open .doc files out of the box! -- Dotan Cohen http://what-is-what.com http://gibberish.co.il א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-נ-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת ا-ب-ت-ث-ج-ح-خ-د-ذ-ر-ز-س-ش-ص-ض-ط-ظ-ع-غ-ف-ق-ك-ل-م-ن-ه‍-و-ي А-Б-В-Г-Д-Е-Ё-Ж-З-И-Й-К-Л-М-Н-О-П-Р-С-Т-У-Ф-Х-Ц-Ч-Ш-Щ-Ъ-Ы-Ь-Э-Ю-Я а-б-в-г-д-е-ё-ж-з-и-й-к-л-м-н-о-п-р-с-т-у-ф-х-ц-ч-ш-щ-ъ-ы-ь-э-ю-я ä-ö-ü-ß-Ä-Ö-Ü

On Wed, 11 Mar 2009, Lew Wolfgang wrote:

JB2 wrote:

...

Yep, Slackware looks good once this 10.3 dies/breaks on me, however long that may take. I hate it too that I'm leaning this way because SuSE really was the best, but since ~9.3 it's gone downhill fast.

You could always try Windows 7. It may be available later this year. I'm sure you'll like it...

Nah, ... he needs Windoze 3.1. I actually have a set of floppies I'd be happy to send. Lee -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Larry Stotler wrote:

On Thu, Mar 12, 2009 at 10:54 AM, L. V. Lammert wrote:

...

Nah, ... he needs Windoze 3.1. I actually have a set of floppies I'd be happy to send.

I'd rather go to OS/2. Now that was a solid, stable system.

As I lean over to look at my shelf, I see a box of OS/2 Warp 4... In fact I have every version back to 2.1 here. I used to have 2.0 and 1.3, but they're long gone. I also have a big box full of OS/2, Linux & DOS app & utility CDs, from my days at IBM a few years back. -- Use OpenOffice.org http://www.openoffice.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Fri, Mar 13, 2009 at 4:42 AM, G T Smith

Not when first released .... some parts of the API did not work properly (i.e. as described in the docs) for a couple of years... and without the web trying to find out what the hell was going on from IBM even as a 'privileged' customer was damn near impossible....

That was in the 1.x days. From 2.0 on, it was stable. I got my first copy at 2.1.

One of the reasons OS/2 lost to Windows 3.x is that it was very unfriendly to much legacy DOS stuff and there was little available to replace these on OS/2 originally... (and an OS without usable apps is a useful as a chocolate teapot, no.. correction... you can eat a chocolate teapot so the latter is more useful :-) )... At the institution I was based in about 90 days of receiving a bundle of OS/2 based PS/2s at least three quarters ended up running DOS/Windows 3.0..

Windows won because of M$'s illegal contracts that required that we sell a copy of win/dos on every machien we sold, whether it went out the door with it or not. To get a discount, you had to agree to these draconian terms, or you couldn't make much money. They were never nailed for that, even though that was what was actually happening. Even now, they are still trying to do the same thing by threatening to jack the price up. And the US Gov has never done anything about it. As for running DOS programs, I ran a 3 node BBS on OS/2 for a while. Helped me have 1 machine instead of 4, because I could work while the BBS was running. I rarely ran into a DOS program that wouldn't run right. Now, the 1.x brain dead version was based on the 286, and you could only run a DOS program in the front session and only 1. 2.x fixed all that. And there were plenty of programs for OS/2 just like there are plenty of programs for Linux. IBM did a bad job marketing it, and with the illegal tie down of Windows to pcs, it was no wonder that it lost. Same with BeOS. It's a hard inertia to break.

When the problems were eventually sorted it was very useful, but by then the intended audience had left the auditorium. Something which maybe those in charge of openSuSE releases need to bear in mind....

So long as a majority of PCs come pre-installed with Windows, it will be a windows world. Breaking that concept is the only way any system will gain. The biggest reason the MacOS is gaining is because it is on an x86 now and you can run windows on it. That and the fact that they've managed to tie their image with the iPod/iPhone to their macs. However, I don't think MacOS will move to 20% anytime soon. They are still hovering around 10% right now, which is much better than the 2% they used to have. Further, Vista's flop has been their gain. If 7 fixes those problems, I doubt their share will continue to grow. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Fri, 2009-03-13 at 07:46 -0400, James Knott wrote:

Larry Stotler wrote:

...

On Fri, Mar 13, 2009 at 4:42 AM, G T Smith

...

Not when first released .... some parts of the API did not work properly (i.e. as described in the docs) for a couple of years... and without the web trying to find out what the hell was going on from IBM even as a 'privileged' customer was damn near impossible....

That was in the 1.x days. From 2.0 on, it was stable. I got my first copy at 2.1.

...

One of the reasons OS/2 lost to Windows 3.x is that it was very unfriendly to much legacy DOS stuff and there was little available to replace these on OS/2 originally... (and an OS without usable apps is a useful as a chocolate teapot, no.. correction... you can eat a chocolate teapot so the latter is more useful :-) )... At the institution I was based in about 90 days of receiving a bundle of OS/2 based PS/2s at least three quarters ended up running DOS/Windows 3.0..

Windows won because of M$'s illegal contracts that required that we sell a copy of win/dos on every machien we sold, whether it went out the door with it or not. To get a discount, you had to agree to these draconian terms, or you couldn't make much money. They were never nailed for that, even though that was what was actually happening. Even now, they are still trying to do the same thing by threatening to jack the price up. And the US Gov has never done anything about it.

IIRC, they were about to get nailed, after the last anti trust trial, but then Dubya became president and then the penalty was greatly reduced.

Bush over rode a Court decision? Using what executive order? Hold the man responsible for what he did, there's plenty enough for that, not what you want him to have done. Mike -- Wondering if Bernie Madoff was involved with Hilary's wonder investments. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Mike McMullin wrote:

...

IIRC, they were about to get nailed, after the last anti trust trial, but then Dubya became president and then the penalty was greatly reduced.

Bush over rode a Court decision? Using what executive order? Hold the man responsible for what he did, there's plenty enough for that, not what you want him to have done.

Mike -- Wondering if Bernie Madoff was involved with Hilary's wonder investments.

They hadn't got to the punishment phase when he was "elected". The court was leaning to a severe penalty (breakup?) and then after he got it, the penalty was greatly reduced from what appeared was intended. He did not overturn the conviction. -- Use OpenOffice.org http://www.openoffice.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

G T Smith wrote:

...

On Fri, Mar 13, 2009 at 4:42 AM, G T Smith

...

Not when first released .... some parts of the API did not work

Larry Stotler wrote: properly

...

...

(i.e. as described in the docs) for a couple of years... and without the web trying to find out what the hell was going on from IBM even as a 'privileged' customer was damn near impossible.... That was in the 1.x days. From 2.0 on, it was stable. I got my first copy at 2.1.

I was given the brief to write something fairly simple which rapidly became a nightmare on OS/2 (equivalent app with MFC proved to be fairly easy to bolt together).

...

As for running DOS programs, I ran a 3 node BBS on OS/2 for a while. Helped me have 1 machine instead of 4, because I could work while the BBS was running. I rarely ran into a DOS program that wouldn't run right. Now, the 1.x brain dead version was based on the 286, and you

Er no... 1.x made use of the ring security architecture (IIRC this was introduced with the 386 series)... DOS problems where mainly due to only being able to remap the first 16 interrupts and problems directly accessing the hardware (only the masochistic used the BIOS for video work then). On the OS/2 side the complete colormetric part was broken and the semaphore based multi-threading support was a horror story.

1.x ran on the 286. This was a point of contention between Microsoft and IBM. Microsoft wanted to go straight for the 386, but IBM had this strange idea that you deliver what you promised your customers.

If you only used text and never used TSRs, never played DOS games, or experimented with video capture, you would probably never notice :-)

...

So long as a majority of PCs come pre-installed with Windows, it will

Nope, this pre-dated this lock in... people went out and bought Windows 3.0/Dos because what they were given did not do the job (just try CP/M and PIP), and Windows 3 surprised everybody by its rapid adoption and this gave M$ the leverage to pull off this stunt (you would never get away with this unless the initial demand was in place)... IBM were stitched up on this but IBM seem to be putting the finger in the right place for M$ to tie the knots :-) ... by the time OS/2 v2 turned up most were no longer interested ....

I think, if you check the history, that Windows was included with DOS, when Microsoft told the vendors that if they wanted DOS, they had to include Windows. Soon almost every new computer came with Windows, with other OSs locked out.

A unix like equivalent on small systems was not initially of much interest for people who mainly worked with DEC minis and DOS (which was the UK Academic Environment preferred choice), and most small systems people introduced alias files which made the command line work like DOS/VMS/Tops, much to the despair of the Unix sys admins of those Unix based systems that were available :-)

I first used a PC after working with VAX/VMS on a VAX 11/780. It was a bit of a come down. -- Use OpenOffice.org http://www.openoffice.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

G T Smith wrote:

James Knott wrote:

...

G T Smith wrote:

...

I think, if you check the history, that Windows was included with DOS, when Microsoft told the vendors that if they wanted DOS, they had to include Windows. Soon almost every new computer came with Windows, with other OSs locked out.

Nope (at least not in the UK) IBM were the first big intel based PC manufacturer and accidentally shot themselves in one foot by effectively destroying the market for the AIX based RS 6000 series, and by providing a relatively open hardware standard they shot themselves in the other foot by opening the door for IBM clones (which eventually dominated the market). ...

???? When the IBM PC came out in 1981, it was available with PC-DOS (slightly modified version of MS-DOS), CP/M-86 and supposedly p-code IIRC. DOS was cheaper. What does this thread have to do with the RS-6000? The early PC's had no where near the performance of the RS-6000 line. One reason for the open design was using off the shelf parts, to get the system out fast. Another reason was they were still smarting from an anti trust decision.

Before this intel PC manufacturers such as North Star,Apricot, Sirius, Brain etc were quite modest in size (and their names are probably long forgotten) Even though they ran variants of DOS, CP/M or p-code their machines had major compatibility issues with each other.

I was not referring to other than IBM PC & clones. By the time Windows rolled out, many alternative computers were gone or on the way out.

DOS and Windows were originally two distinct products. Windows 1, Windows 2 and Windows 3.0 were GUIs that you optionally purchased that ran on top of MSDOS,PCDOS or whatever, much like the way that X can run on top of a shell (CP/M IIRC never had such a GUI front end). They competed against stuff like GEM (Windows was not the only GUI at time). For some reason X was not ported to DOS. M$ had options in a Unix like PC OS (Xenix I think), but it never made any real impact, (at time most small systems people regarded *nix as obscure and obtuse and would not touch it with a bargepole).

Yes, I remember those days well, including Windows on DOS, including all versions up ME. Windows 95, 98 and ME were built on DOS, but came as one package, compared to installing Windows on DOS, up to v3.11. GEM, like Windows, ran on top of DOS. It wasl also produced by the same company as CP/M, Digital Research. XENIX was a version of SCO Unix, which was ported to the x86.

Windows 3.0 was the first really popular intel PC based GUI, and swept all before it (as Apple were doing in the Motorola world). Windows 2 was usable and 1 IIRC was rubbish. DOS based IBM based machines had been around for some time before Windows 3.0 was launched alongside OS/2 with IBMs second generation of PCs. OS/2 failed, Windows 3 succeeded, M$ abandoned (or was thrown off) the OS/2 ship and the rest is history. (I still remember the scramble to port DOS based apps to Windows 3.0, as not even M$ expected the level of success that this would have).

MS used IBM's money, intended for OS/2 development, to develop Windows. So, MS was secretly moving away, until IBM development from them. I assume you also remember that MS had apps already to go, when Windows came, whereas other companies, who made the mistake of believing MS were developing OS/2 and DOS apps. Back in the early 90s, when OS/2 came out, it was very difficult to buy a computer without Windows. Also, you might want to read up on how Window would check to see if it was being run on DR-DOS (again from Digital Research) and if so, generate a bogus error message. You might also read up on how "DOS" was bought from Seattle Computers, where it was originally intended to be used for testing hardware, while waiting for CP/M-86 to be released. This is why the early versions of DOS were so similar to CP/M, as Gary Killdall pointed out in court. Bottom line, Microsoft used a lot of illegal or border line illegal tactics to force market share and continue doing so to this day (read up on how they corrupted ISO with their getting OOXML passed as an ISO standard).

M$ took the opportunity this offered relatively late, the two product lines were kind of integrated into Windows 95 a couple of years later which is really when the bundling took off.

...

I first used a PC after working with VAX/VMS on a VAX 11/780. It was a bit of a come down.

I first used a PC 30 years ago when 16K RAM machine was a *big* PC and 8in floppy drive was a small drive :-) .. In many ways the mainframe/mini experience when it came was a bit frustrating...

Sorry folks this has wondered way OT...

-- Use OpenOffice.org http://www.openoffice.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

G T Smith wrote:

Larry Stotler wrote:

...

On Thu, Mar 12, 2009 at 10:54 AM, L. V. Lammert wrote:

...

Nah, ... he needs Windoze 3.1. I actually have a set of floppies I'd be happy to send. I'd rather go to OS/2. Now that was a solid, stable system.

Not when first released .... some parts of the API did not work properly (i.e. as described in the docs) for a couple of years... and without the web trying to find out what the hell was going on from IBM even as a 'privileged' customer was damn near impossible....

Those early versions were from Microsoft. That changed with 1.3 which was done mostly by IBM.

One of the reasons OS/2 lost to Windows 3.x is that it was very unfriendly to much legacy DOS stuff and there was little available to replace these on OS/2 originally... (and an OS without usable apps is a useful as a chocolate teapot, no.. correction... you can eat a chocolate teapot so the latter is more useful :-) )... At the institution I was based in about 90 days of receiving a bundle of OS/2 based PS/2s at least three quarters ended up running DOS/Windows 3.0..

There were issues with DOS apps in 1.x With 2.0 & later, DOS support was excellent.

When the problems were eventually sorted it was very useful, but by then the intended audience had left the auditorium. Something which maybe those in charge of openSuSE releases need to bear in mind....

Don't forget about Microsoft's using what amounts to extortion to force vendors to provide only Windows, or requiring them to pay for a Windows license for every computer made, whether it came with Windows installed or not. They even squeezed IBM by refusing to sell them Windows 95 at the same price as other companies, unless they stopped marketing OS/2. Otherwise IBM would have had to pay much more than anyone else to include Windows 95, making them uncompetitive. -- Use OpenOffice.org http://www.openoffice.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On 12 March 09, Lew Wolfgang wrote:

JB2 wrote:

...

Yep, Slackware looks good once this 10.3 dies/breaks on me, however long that may take. I hate it too that I'm leaning this way because SuSE really was the best, but since ~9.3 it's gone downhill fast.

You could always try Windows 7. It may be available later this year. I'm sure you'll like it...

And there you have it. You, L.V., and Mukul just proved my point I brought up in another thread. Thank you. -- Those who see no difference between people legally immigrating to the US and people who come here illegally must likewise see no difference between consensual sex and rape. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Thursday 12 March 2009 06:56:09 am Larry Stotler wrote:

Yep.  "Code it" is what I hear a lot of.  But, then I hear calls for testing and feedback, and when I give feedback or make my voice heard, I'm ignored.  So, since openSUSE is going in a direction I'm not willing to go, I guess it's time to move on.

Repeating that has what purpose Larry. I know that if decide to go, I would not waste time to repeat that 10 times around the list. By hanging around, you either want attention, or hurt project for some reason. What's your case? -- Regards, Rajko -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Thursday 12 March 2009 06:59:58 pm Larry Stotler wrote:

On Thu, Mar 12, 2009 at 9:37 AM, Rajko M. wrote:

...

Repeating that has what purpose Larry. I know that if decide to go, I would not waste time to repeat that 10 times around the list.

By hanging around, you either want attention, or hurt project for some reason. What's your case?

Because it's not easy trying to walk away from something you have invested so much time and effort in, especially now that we have an opportunity to make things better.

OK. How do you use opportunity? Telling stories doesn't help. Here is what can be done: http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-project/2009-03/msg00233.html It would be solution for all different configuration needs. Do it once, and reload when you need different. When there is enough configurations, we can start ranting about hwo hard is to find right one ;-) -- Regards, Rajko -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Doug McGarrett wrote:

Well, 10.0 _almost_ worked--except that about 1 out 10 messages in KMail arrived in some Asian script and could never be decoded. I went back to 9.3, which also _almost_ works, but won't print to my Laserjet. I have 11.0--somewhere--but I'm afraid of it!

Heh - I'd forgotten about the weird Asian script in the KMail. I'm a believer in 10.3 - it just works. 11.1 (with KDE3) just works as well. If you really need a production machine that absolutely works, however, then openSUSE is not it. That's why Novell has SLED with a seven-year lifecycle. -- kai www.perfectreign.com | www.ecmplace.com www.twitter.com/PerfectReign -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org