[SLE] Package installers in SUSE10.1
OK.. maybe I'm missing the point here.. but... the package installers that are included with SUSE10.1 seem to me to be a major step backwards in end user functionality. I've been tinkering with the "Software Installer" tool that I found in the KDE > System > Configuration menu. So far I've not been able to figure out how to easily add more installation sources. Can I add 3rd party repostiories to this too - say... Packman for example? What about sorting the results... all I get is one MASSIVE long and VERY unmanageable list of available apps (I'm assuming it's what is available on the DVD?) I can only imagine it will get a lot more unmanageable if I add more sources. What about a way to see what's new since I last queried the DB? Is that possible? Figuring that to be a work in progress, I decided to try out SMART again... and it's still very user unfriendly (from a newbie user perspective). I've added a bunch of the 3rd party repositories.. and have been able to use SMART GUI to install several aps... I've also managed to install multiple versions of an app using SMART - why is this still possible (without some manual override)? And again... how do I see what's been added since the last repository update? (how do I tell what's new in the 7000+ apps that are available?) How do I compare the installed version with the availabale version/update? Is there some way to compare versions side by side? Now.. to put this in perspective, I'm a long time Linux user, and I can easily manage the command line tools, and I can deal with broken or very badly designed tools (from a usability perspective like I feel SMART-GUI is)... but, I'm planning on turning a bunch of newbies loose on 10.1.. and they all need to have simple tools to use. Synaptic was simple to set up... simple to use, simple to manage,a nd simpel to explain (I've showed many people how to manage thir system with Synaptic in 10.0 with great success). The newbie users could easily tell what had been added, what version they had installed, and easily compare it to the available version. I don't see that in SMART (not obviously anyway) and I definitely don't see it in the ZEN/ZYPP tools. So... I guess I'm asking.. what's so great about SMART (SMART-GUI) from an end user perspective? How are new users expected to use this new ZEN/ZYPP installer tool? What is the vision here? Where is this moving? Are there plans to make these tools more useable for new users? C. -- Check the headers for your unsubscription address For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the archives at http://lists.suse.com Please read the FAQs: suse-linux-e-faq@suse.com
OK.. maybe I'm missing the point here.. but... the package installers that are included with SUSE10.1 seem to me to be a major step backwards in end user functionality.
I've been tinkering with the "Software Installer" tool that I found in the KDE > System > Configuration menu. So far I've not been able to figure out how to easily add more installation sources. Can I add 3rd party repostiories to this too - say... Packman for example? What about sorting the results... all I get is one MASSIVE long and VERY unmanageable list of available apps (I'm assuming it's what is available on the DVD?) I can only imagine it will get a lot more unmanageable if I add more sources. What about a way to see what's new since I last queried the DB? Is that possible?
Figuring that to be a work in progress, I decided to try out SMART again... and it's still very user unfriendly (from a newbie user perspective). I've added a bunch of the 3rd party repositories.. and have been able to use SMART GUI to install several aps... I've also managed to install multiple versions of an app using SMART - why is this still possible (without some manual override)? And again... how do I see what's been added since the last repository update? (how do I tell what's new in the 7000+ apps that are available?) How do I compare the installed version with the availabale version/update? Is there some way to compare versions side by side?
Now.. to put this in perspective, I'm a long time Linux user, and I can easily manage the command line tools, and I can deal with broken or very badly designed tools (from a usability perspective like I feel SMART-GUI is)... but, I'm planning on turning a bunch of newbies loose on 10.1.. and they all need to have simple tools to use. Synaptic was simple to set up... simple to use, simple to manage,a nd simpel to explain (I've showed many people how to manage thir system with Synaptic in 10.0 with great success). The newbie users could easily tell what had been added, what version they had installed, and easily compare it to the available version. I don't see that in SMART (not obviously anyway) and I definitely don't see it in the ZEN/ZYPP tools.
So... I guess I'm asking.. what's so great about SMART (SMART-GUI) from an end user perspective? How are new users expected to use this new ZEN/ZYPP installer tool? What is the vision here? Where is this moving? Are there plans to make these tools more useable for new users?
C. On the positive side, with Smart, you get a set of predetermined mirrors and channels. Also when you go to add a channel, you can do it by cutting and
On Tuesday 13 June 2006 15:42, Clayton wrote: pasting a URL. Not all URLs work but most standard ones do. You can set the view to Updates Only. Also before you start downloading, hit Fix All Problems to avoid conflicts. Compared to a command line, it is pretty good. Yast worked well for me once I figured out how to add new installation sources. The syntax is a little complicated but there is a nice Cool Solutions article that walks you through it and also there is an article on OpenSuse.org as well. Zen works well now on my machine but I like to choose my updates rather than take the set list. When I was feeling adventurous and had a backup, I set the SUSE factory distribution as an update source. 1,400 updates later and a new kernel, the overall package works well and is stable but one or two items like the Epiphany web browser, which I don't normally use have problems. As long as I have a disk image to go back to, I am willing to take some chances. Ralph Ellis -- Check the headers for your unsubscription address For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the archives at http://lists.suse.com Please read the FAQs: suse-linux-e-faq@suse.com
OK.. maybe I'm missing the point here.. but... the package installers that are included with SUSE10.1 seem to me to be a major step backwards in end user functionality.
[snip]
On the positive side, with Smart, you get a set of predetermined mirrors and channels.
You do? Not with the version of Smart that I installed from the DVD. Well.. not exactly true I guess. The predetermined mirrors and channels are equal to the DVD and the mirror/server that the Updates come from.. nothing more. I've been able to add in more channels.. manually... which is not exactly intuitive from a new user's stand point - at least not from the opensuse.org page on 3rd party repositories. It required that I guess what the prefix shoudl be (http or ftp) and manually type that in, then copy paste the URL and then in a separate copy paste the path... I can do that but the new users I'm trying to get up and running on 10.1 are really struggling. I'm comparing this to the instructions I gave these same users with 10.0 and setting up Apt/Synaptic.
You can set the view to Updates Only.
OK, I've done this, but that only tells me what can be updated (which is the intent of this setting) btu it doesn't tell me what's new since the last time I queried the repositories. I don't update everything with each update... I pick and choose... as a result the list of updatable apps can be long... and it's impossible (as far as I can see) to tell from that list what apps are new, and what ones have been there for a while - I'm old.. I have a bad memory.. I can't remember what was there from one week to the next :-)
worked well for me once I figured out how to add new installation sources.
So... why is it so hard to do? I can manage it... but it's a pig to navigate. It's horrible to try and work out whats new, what's old etc. YAST is a ncie tool and all, but it really falls down when it comest to telling me what dependancies are needed for which app (if I install more than one app at a time... or if I forget to click Check Dependancies EVERY time I select a new app from the list)
Zen works well now on my machine
Yah, woks fine for me too... it's updated everything (I think) and done it quickly. But... has anyone actually tried to use it to add a new application? It's... it's just this one massive long list. There is no grouping, no sorting. OK, there are what... 3 clickable sorting links at the bottom of the tool... but all that does is shuffle the list... the VERY long list. I'm beginngin to thing that teh developers failed their UI Architect lessons. The tool works great in the backend (now) but fails so completely on a UI usability standpoint :-( I'm not trying to be negative here... I'm honestly trying to see what's so great about SMART and ZEN. People have been gushing abotu how cool SMART is... but I simply don't see it. Please someone... explain it to me why SMART is a better solution or why ZEN is a better solution. C. -- Check the headers for your unsubscription address For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the archives at http://lists.suse.com Please read the FAQs: suse-linux-e-faq@suse.com
On Tue, 13 Jun 2006 21:42:37 +0200 Clayton
I decided to try out SMART again... and it's still very user unfriendly (from a newbie user perspective).
I use 'smart --gui'. From my perspective it is not too bad. Click on 'Update channels', click on ''Upgrade all packages', answer 'OK'.
how do I see what's been added since the last repository update?
THIS is to me the best thing about 'smart --gui': To see what's been added since the last time you did 'Update channels': View -> Hide Old, plus View -> Expand All
How do I compare the installed version with the availabale version/update?
This takes additional manual intervention. [By the way, I've selected View -> Tree Style -> Channels and Groups. That way, if the package is available in several repositories, what I get to see on that listing is what version is available where.] - In the "Hide Old" listing, RMB_click on an interesting package, then click on 'Install'. If there is an installed version, a window will open allowing you to see the version of the to-be-upgraded package is. I 'Cancel' if all I wanted was to compare, not upgrade. If there is no installed version, the "install" will be marked (the icon to the left of the package changes). If I *don't* want the install after all, again RMB_click on that same package, and click instead on 'Keep' (which I guess in this situation means "keep things as they are"). That removes the mark. - Otherwise: click on 'Find packages', type in the search name, and View -> Expand All. The available versions will be listed under their respective repositories. The installed version will be listed under "RPM system". - If you've marked packages for installation, View -> Summary will show you a change summary window, whose content can be expanded to show the version of the installed packages being upgraded.
I've added a bunch of the 3rd party repositories.
This is to me the WORST thing about the "new way of doing things". Back in SuSE 9.3 the location of most repositories was simple - they were at gwdg.de in the /pub/linux/suse/apt tree, and I could view that tree with a browser to identify the components which had repositories there. Now I simply DO NOT KNOW where in the world 3rd party repositories are to be found (especially the "new format" ones) !!
I've also managed to install multiple versions of an app using SMART - why is this still possible (without some manual override)?
Here I agree with you. SMART seems to be too much at the mercy of how developers have defined the dependencies for their packages. Currently for my 10.1 x86_64 system the 'mozilla' 3rd party channel (the SMART package from 'guru' added in that channel) wants to upgrade my installed version of mozilla-xulrunner for x86_64, but __also__ to install an i586 version of that same (application!!) package. WHY is completely unclear to me. mikus -- Check the headers for your unsubscription address For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the archives at http://lists.suse.com Please read the FAQs: suse-linux-e-faq@suse.com
Op woensdag 14 juni 2006 10:49, schreef Mikus Grinbergs:
I've added a bunch of the 3rd party repositories.
This is to me the WORST thing about the "new way of doing things". Back in SuSE 9.3 the location of most repositories was simple - they were at gwdg.de in the /pub/linux/suse/apt tree, and I could view that tree with a browser to identify the components which had repositories there.
Now I simply DO NOT KNOW where in the world 3rd party repositories are to be found (especially the "new format" ones) !!
Perhaps it helps if you file a bugreport at http://bugzilla.novell.com? -- Richard Bos Without a home the journey is endless -- Check the headers for your unsubscription address For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the archives at http://lists.suse.com Please read the FAQs: suse-linux-e-faq@suse.com
THIS is to me the best thing about 'smart --gui': To see what's been added since the last time you did 'Update channels': View -> Hide Old, plus View -> Expand All
OK.. hadn't tried that - see.. like I said, I was missing the obvious. Maybe because the menu item is named completely opposite to what a new user would expect. Instead of "Hide Old"... wouldn't "Show New" make more sense? I know that in tests I've done with new users they were totally baffled by the interface of Smart-gui (as compared to Synaptic where they bopped aorund with no trouble at all).
If there is an installed version, a window will open allowing you to see the version of the to-be-upgraded package is. I 'Cancel' if all I wanted was to compare, not upgrade.
Hmm.. Ok, but yet again... BAD useability in this application! That's totally backwards. A user should never have to start an installation process to find out what he/she already has, and then have to cancel it :-(
- Otherwise: click on 'Find packages', type in the search name,
That works great when you know what you're looking for :-) And if you want to compare a bunch of packages.. oiy... does anyone have that kind of time to sit there and futz arond with searches on each package they want to compare?
- If you've marked packages for installation, View -> Summary will show you a change summary window, whose content can be expanded to show the version of the installed packages being upgraded.
That's very helpful once you've selected everything.
This is to me the WORST thing about the "new way of doing things". Back in SuSE 9.3 the location of most repositories was simple -
Yup. Everyone has told me that Smart is teh way forward, that it's a much better tool etc etc etc. I've yet to see it. Well... what I can see is that Smart speaks to many different repositories - which is a good thing, but in terms of useability, it falls down flat. I'm not interested in CLI either. I have to support SUSE on a whole bunch of desktops which users who are completely new to Linux. I am NOT going to turn them loose on the CLI. The GUI tool must work, and they must be useable... Smart works... but for usability it gets a 2 out of 10.
Now I simply DO NOT KNOW where in the world 3rd party repositories are to be found (especially the "new format" ones) !!
Well... the first place I look for this is on teh opensuse.org site... http://en.opensuse.org/Additional_YaST_Package_Repositories http://en.opensuse.org/Package_Repositories Gives you _SOME_ repositories. I've added everythign there is for 10.1, and I have about half (or maybe less) of what was available in the Apt repositories for 10.0. For example, where are the KDE updates to 3.5.3???? I can't find them... and I don't have a clue yet where to look. I'm OK with taking steps backwards to improve things. Hey, look at some of the messes we had with early 9.x stuff... I'm really trying to see the good in the move to ZEN and SMART, but... it's just not jumping out at me. Well... ZEN works (now)... as an updater tool, and I'm kind of indifferent to it vs YOU. As long as the critical updates are applied and done easily - which in that respect ZEN is no different than YOU - I'm good with that. But... in terms of package management??? Man I hope there's some planned improvements coming! C. . -- Check the headers for your unsubscription address For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the archives at http://lists.suse.com Please read the FAQs: suse-linux-e-faq@suse.com
participants (4)
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Clayton
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mikus@bga.com
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Ralph Ellis
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Richard Bos