Bodo Bauer wrote:

On Tue, Aug 11, W.D.McKinney wrote:

...

Thanks Bodo! Much appreciated!

Oh, I forgot one point, these are the contents of the german CD, you won't find things like ssh, pgp, apache-ssl one the english version. I'll replace the descriptions as soon, as I have a copy of the english version.

Ciao, BB

I always knew the German distro was superior! ---------------------------------- W.D.McKinney (Dee) deem@wdm.com No Claim to Fame, Saved by Grace ---------------------------------- - To get out of this list, please send email to majordomo@suse.com with this text in its body: unsubscribe suse-linux-e

On 13-Aug-98 Arun K. Khan wrote:

At 10:48 AM 08/12/98 -0700, Bodo Bauer wrote:

...

Oh, I forgot one point, these are the contents of the german CD, you won't find things like ssh, pgp, apache-ssl one the english version. I'll replace the descriptions as soon, as I have a copy of the english version.

What is the reason for excluding above packages from the English CDs?

-- Arun Khan

My question too ... ! Ted. -------------------------------------------------------------------- E-Mail: (Ted Harding) Date: 13-Aug-98 Time: 09:32:00 -------------------------------------------------------------------- - To get out of this list, please send email to majordomo@suse.com with this text in its body: unsubscribe suse-linux-e

On 13-Aug-98 Lenz Grimmer wrote:

On Wed, 12 Aug 1998, Arun K. Khan wrote:

...

...

you won't find things like ssh, pgp, apache-ssl one the english

What is the reason for excluding above packages from the English CDs?

Cryptography restrictions.

LenZ

1. By whom? I was not aware that PGP, for instance, was subject to the US RSA-type restrictions. So who is imposing this? 2. Does this mean, for instance, that the German edition will not be available at all in "English" countries? Otherwise, what is to stop people who want PGP etc from getting the German edition (as well as, if not instead of, the English one)? As it stands, this looks bizarre. No doubt, Lenz, there *are* good reasons; we puzzled S.u.S.E. fans would, however, welcome a fuller explanation of what they are. With thanks, and best wishes, Ted. -------------------------------------------------------------------- E-Mail: (Ted Harding) Date: 13-Aug-98 Time: 11:42:13 -------------------------------------------------------------------- - To get out of this list, please send email to majordomo@suse.com with this text in its body: unsubscribe suse-linux-e

On 13-Aug-98 Lenz Grimmer wrote:
> On Thu, 13 Aug 1998 Ted.Harding@nessie.mcc.ac.uk wrote:
>> > Cryptography restrictions.
>> 1. By whom? I was not aware that PGP, for instance, was subject to the
>>    US RSA-type restrictions. So who is imposing this?
>> 2. Does this mean, for instance, that the German edition will not be
>> available
>>    at all in "English" countries? Otherwise, what is to stop people who want
>>    PGP  etc from getting the German edition (as well as, if not instead of,
>>    the English one)?
> 
> The funny thing is, that the US export restrictions on cryprography
> force us to leave out these packages out of the english version. This is
> due to the fact, that all non-European orders are handled by our american
> division, which would otherwise be unable to reexport the package, even if
> they imported it from Germany. You can still download these packages from
> a non-US ftp-Server. I hope, that this is understandable, my English seems
> to be kind of weird today ;-)
> 
> I agree, that this sounds bizarre. I too was puzzled, the first time I
> heard about this. 

Hi Lenz!

Thank you for the explanation, which begins to make things a little clearer.
I am still probing for the ultimate logic of this, so: two more questions.

3. I am in the UK which is a European country (though not "Schengen" -- does
   that matter?), and I order my S.u.S.E.s from Germany. I dare say people in
   some other Euro countries might prefer their distribution in the English 
   language rather than German (nothing nationalistic -- just a matter of what
   languages you're most likely to have learned in your country).

   So this would not be a "non-European order". Why is an English version
   (for which you presumably have the files to hand in Germany) not able to
   be ordered from Germany? Or maybe it is available from Germany (not having
   to pass via the States)?

4. If the German version is available as a "European" order and does include
   the "hot" packages, why is an English-language version with the same
   packages not also available from Germany as a "European" order?

(And, by the way, my comment on PGP still stands: I am not aware that PGP
is subject to the RSA restrictions. Am I wrong about this?)

While I agree that downloading these packages from a non-US ftp server is a
fairly simple "work-round" there is a point of principle (as well as
convenience) involved here. I am inclined to resist any unnecessary yielding to
restrictiove pressure of these kinds. If it would be strictly illegal, then so
be it: no-one wants to press S.u.S.E. to break any laws; but if it is legal to
distribute a complete version in German then it seems to me that it has to be
legal to distribute the equivalent in Emglish by the same means.

What I'm saying, in short, is that there can be a European-English version not
subject to the restrictions of the US-ENglish version. I find it hard to
swallow that the mere factor of which language is used can switch on the
legal restrictions (except that S.u.S.E. may have decided for financial reasons
that they will only manufacture the English version in the States -- but if that
were the case then I'm afraid I might lose my taste for the hitherto excellent
S.u.S.E. distribution; which would be a pity. One of the reasons S.u.S.E. was
welcome is that it has been a _European_ Linux of high quality; if the only
version I want to buy turns out to be yet another American Linux then ... ).

With thanks again,
Ted.

--------------------------------------------------------------------
E-Mail: (Ted Harding) 
Date: 13-Aug-98                                       Time: 14:27:33
--------------------------------------------------------------------
-
To get out of this list, please send email to majordomo@suse.com with
this text in its body: unsubscribe suse-linux-e

On Thu, Aug 13, 1998 at 04:02:40PM +0100, Jo Whitby wrote:

On Thu, Aug 13, 1998 at 02:27:33PM +0100, Ted Harding wrote:

...

legal restrictions (except that S.u.S.E. may have decided for financial reasons that they will only manufacture the English version in the States -- but if that were the case then I'm afraid I might lose my taste for the hitherto excellent S.u.S.E. distribution; which would be a pity. One of the reasons S.u.S.E. was welcome is that it has been a _European_ Linux of high quality; if the only version I want to buy turns out to be yet another American Linux then ... ).

Hi

I too chose S.u.S.E. because it is a European distribution - I changed from Red Hat because I deplore the American influence propogating around the world.

* flame on * Common guys, this is ridiculous. I am an American that is using S.u.S.E. because it is a high quality product. I never cared whether it is an American product or a European one. I care about the QUALITY. Lets not get into nationalistic arguments here. I am sure you will find enough alt.* newsgroups to spread you nationalistic views. Time to get over this s***t. * flame off * Avi -- Windows 98 supports real multitasking - it can boot and crash simultaneously ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Avi Schwartz to.avi@usa.net - To get out of this list, please send email to majordomo@suse.com with this text in its body: unsubscribe suse-linux-e

Hi,

On Thu, 13 Aug 1998 Ted.Harding@nessie.mcc.ac.uk wrote:

> On 13-Aug-98 Lenz Grimmer wrote:
> > On Thu, 13 Aug 1998 Ted.Harding@nessie.mcc.ac.uk wrote:
> >> > Cryptography restrictions.
> >> 1. By whom? I was not aware that PGP, for instance, was subject to the
> >>    US RSA-type restrictions. So who is imposing this?
> >> 2. Does this mean, for instance, that the German edition will not be
> >> available
> >>    at all in "English" countries? Otherwise, what is to stop people who want
> >>    PGP  etc from getting the German edition (as well as, if not instead of,
> >>    the English one)?
> > 
> > The funny thing is, that the US export restrictions on cryprography
> > force us to leave out these packages out of the english version. This is
> > due to the fact, that all non-European orders are handled by our american
> > division, which would otherwise be unable to reexport the package, even if
> > they imported it from Germany. You can still download these packages from
> > a non-US ftp-Server. I hope, that this is understandable, my English seems
> > to be kind of weird today ;-)
> > 
> > I agree, that this sounds bizarre. I too was puzzled, the first time I
> > heard about this. 
> 
> Hi Lenz!
> 
> Thank you for the explanation, which begins to make things a little clearer.
> I am still probing for the ultimate logic of this, so: two more questions.
> 
> 3. I am in the UK which is a European country (though not "Schengen" -- does
>    that matter?), and I order my S.u.S.E.s from Germany. I dare say people in
>    some other Euro countries might prefer their distribution in the English 
>    language rather than German (nothing nationalistic -- just a matter of what
>    languages you're most likely to have learned in your country).
> 
>    So this would not be a "non-European order". Why is an English version
>    (for which you presumably have the files to hand in Germany) not able to
>    be ordered from Germany? Or maybe it is available from Germany (not having
>    to pass via the States)?
> 
> 4. If the German version is available as a "European" order and does include
>    the "hot" packages, why is an English-language version with the same
>    packages not also available from Germany as a "European" order?

This is just a problem of handling (and of course of money). Currently we
only have one International version that is sold all around the world. So,
if you order an International version even from Germany, you'll get the
very same version as is shipped in the USA.

Of course you can explicitly order the German version, and you will get
it. But unfortunately it will contain the German handbook, which is not
what you want.

Shipping packages from Germany to Asia or South America is that expensive
that customers simply don't want to pay so much (what I understand).

We're currently considering several ways to address this problem. We set
up an ftp server in the free world (outside of the USA) where we provide
the offending packages for download. Maybe we will integrate some feature
into YaST that allows for automated download of the packages. 

Another story is France; currently we're not sure whether we are allowed
to provide this software there at all (maybe you don't know, but in France
use of encryption is prohibited by law; you need some special license to
encrypt your data and almost nobody gets this license). It's impossible
for us to have a special version for every country in Europe.

> (And, by the way, my comment on PGP still stands: I am not aware that PGP
> is subject to the RSA restrictions. Am I wrong about this?)

We need to look into this. Currently I'm not sure if PGP may be exported
from the USA.

> While I agree that downloading these packages from a non-US ftp server is a
> fairly simple "work-round" there is a point of principle (as well as
> convenience) involved here. I am inclined to resist any unnecessary yielding to
> restrictiove pressure of these kinds. If it would be strictly illegal, then so
> be it: no-one wants to press S.u.S.E. to break any laws; but if it is legal to
> distribute a complete version in German then it seems to me that it has to be
> legal to distribute the equivalent in Emglish by the same means.

Yes, of course. But managing two different English versions is lots of
work and additional overhead. We have been under the impression that
people that need encryption have internet access and are not bothered too
much if they can simply download the offending software from some ftp
site. All packages missing on the International version can be obtained
from ftp.suse.de and from ftp.gwdg.de (very fast mirror).

It's very annoying to have all this extra work because of some idiotic US
laws ;-(

> What I'm saying, in short, is that there can be a European-English version not
> subject to the restrictions of the US-ENglish version. I find it hard to
> swallow that the mere factor of which language is used can switch on the
> legal restrictions (except that S.u.S.E. may have decided for financial reasons
> that they will only manufacture the English version in the States -- but if that
> were the case then I'm afraid I might lose my taste for the hitherto excellent
> S.u.S.E. distribution; which would be a pity. One of the reasons S.u.S.E. was
> welcome is that it has been a _European_ Linux of high quality; if the only
> version I want to buy turns out to be yet another American Linux then ... ).

I understand. The current situation is very unsatisfying. Believe me: This
issue is much discussed here at S.u.S.E. and we will continue to look for
a good solution.

> With thanks again,
> Ted.
                                                                  -o)
    Hubert                                                        /\\
                                                                 _\_v

-
To get out of this list, please send email to majordomo@suse.com with
this text in its body: unsubscribe suse-linux-e

That was a clear explenation LenZ I tried doeing it several times, but I think I wasn't clear enough. What I did'nt knew was that in France encryption is prohibited by law. Stange we are one europe at this point and the French still wanna be French and not european. (With all due respect to the French in this mailinglist). Read U l8r - To get out of this list, please send email to majordomo@suse.com with this text in its body: unsubscribe suse-linux-e

On Thu, 13 Aug 1998, Lenz Grimmer wrote:

The funny thing is, that the US export restrictions on cryprography force us to leave out these packages out of the english version.

. . . and they told me all my life that I lived in America, land of the free!?! Hey, we can't even buy Cuban cigars here (not that I would want to anyway)! Mike - To get out of this list, please send email to majordomo@suse.com with this text in its body: unsubscribe suse-linux-e

Hi, On Thu, 13 Aug 1998, Arun K. Khan wrote:

In my earlier response to Lenz's reply, I missed some of the opinions expressed by others in the list.

My comment about export restrictions is: There are many shrink wrapped software packages from M$, Lotus, IBM etc., sold in the US that are clearly labeled "not for sale outside US/Canada" and/or "not for export outside the US/Canada" when such restrictions apply e.g. Lotus Notes server/client. I think disclaimer absolves the vendor and software author from any legalese and the total responsiblity then lies with the consumer.

IMHO, S.u.S.E could have adopted a similar approach for units sold/distributed from their US company S.u.S.E LLC rather than taking out the packages and depriving the rest of the english speaking world. I realize it may be too late for 5.3 but I hope SuSE would consider this approach in their next release and not differentiate between the German and English distributions.

Yes, of course we could have two English versions. One that may be exported from the USA and one that must not. But as this implies lots of additional work and money we have not yet done so. Of course this is one of the possibilities we consider. But besides all the drawbacks, there are also advantages with the International version: As it is mastered _after_ the german release, it normally has some bugs fixed that are in the German version (every software contains bugs as all of you know). So in the English version of 5.3 two minor bugs regarding YaST and execution of glibc binaries have been fixed.

-- Arun Khan -o) Hubert /\\ _\_v

- To get out of this list, please send email to majordomo@suse.com with this text in its body: unsubscribe suse-linux-e

On Thu, 13 Aug 1998, Arun K. Khan wrote:

...

My comment about export restrictions is: There are many shrink wrapped software packages from M$, Lotus, IBM etc., sold in the US that are clearly labeled "not for sale outside US/Canada" and/or "not for export outside the US/Canada" when such restrictions apply e.g. Lotus Notes server/client. I think disclaimer absolves the vendor and software author from any legalese and the total responsiblity then lies with the consumer. how would that work, since when you order it you give your address? To put a product out with export restrictions and deliberatedly and knowingly ship it to America with a sticker saying it's wrong to export it to America or some other disclaimer at the same time seems a bit ridiculous. But then again I could be having a bad day. ;-) Clueless in BC, Michael Well, actually, FreeBSD does that routinely in the installation software, with big repeated warnings that the software right on the CD you're installing from is not for export from the U.S. and Canada, is illegal to install outside the U.S. and Canada. Given the whole BSD legal hassles of a few years back, I'd bet

On Thu, 13 Aug 1998, Michael Johnson wrote: they get good legal advice, (after all, they did win their settlement.) So I'd be surprised if their "Here's a neat toy, but you really shouldn't have it, even though its right here," strategy was unsound. Now, if S.u.S.E. does it I suppose that there're some who would whine about foreigners doing what US companies do as a matter of course. I'm not convinced it was a good law before the Internet, though. Now that we have the internet, it seems very silly to me. My government in action, in all its glory and power. The question is, does S.u.S.E. want to move totally out of the U.S? Or do they want to do distributions hampered by U.S. law, if only in a minor way. Besides, those who install BSD or Linux usually have found the internet and can download whatever they need from sites outside the U.S. (Or even in it, I suppose, ignoring ineffectual warnings if present.) Ed Craig epcraig@efn.org Looking for a job... - To get out of this list, please send email to majordomo@suse.com with this text in its body: unsubscribe suse-linux-e

Hi Arun, here I am again: (Raymond) They cannot supply ssh, apache-ssl to the US. This is ofcourse also one of the many countries where the English version of SuSE goes. Because it is prohibitten to inport and export encryption software from the US. (Those people are afraid that we might find out the encription mechanism for the Pentagon or something). Arun K. Khan wrote:

At 10:59 AM 08/13/98 +0200, Lenz Grimmer wrote:

...

Hi,

On Wed, 12 Aug 1998, Arun K. Khan wrote:

...

...

you won't find things like ssh, pgp, apache-ssl one the english

What is the reason for excluding above packages from the English CDs?

Cryptography restrictions.

LenZ

I am not sure what you mean by above. Isn't S.u.S.E GmbH the publisher of both versions of the distribution?

-- Arun Khan PS - will the above packages at least be available at your FTP site? - To get out of this list, please send email to majordomo@suse.com with this text in its body: unsubscribe suse-linux-e

- To get out of this list, please send email to majordomo@suse.com with this text in its body: unsubscribe suse-linux-e