Karl Ove Hufthammer skreiv 11. mars 2016 22:46:

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Atm the update of weblate with bugs fixed from the last round is in progress here https://build.opensuse.org/project/monitor/M17N:l10n.opensuse.org When it builds and gets published more stuff will get migrated.

Am I understanding you correctly in that all the openSUSE translations files will be moved to Weblate? And that the translators will have to use Weblate to translate openSUSE in the future?

I never got a reply, but stumbled over this blog post today, which seems to list the plans for the translation infrastructure for openSUSE (not very good news, I’m afraid): http://rootco.de/board/2016/03/20/board-meeting-f2f-2016-p3.html i18n.o.o: Translations site is being migrated to l10n.o.o as we speak and i18n will be killed including the svn prior Leap 42.2 release. -- Karl Ove Hufthammer -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-translation+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-translation+owner@opensuse.org

2016-03-20 17:37 GMT-03:00 Carlos E. R. :

On 2016-03-20 18:30, Karl Ove Hufthammer wrote:

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Karl Ove Hufthammer skreiv 11. mars 2016 22:46:

...

...

Atm the update of weblate with bugs fixed from the last round is in progress here https://build.opensuse.org/project/monitor/M17N:l10n.opensuse.org When it builds and gets published more stuff will get migrated.

Am I understanding you correctly in that all the openSUSE translations files will be moved to Weblate? And that the translators will have to use Weblate to translate openSUSE in the future?

I never got a reply, but stumbled over this blog post today, which seems to list the plans for the translation infrastructure for openSUSE (not very good news, I’m afraid):

http://rootco.de/board/2016/03/20/board-meeting-f2f-2016-p3.html

i18n.o.o: Translations site is being migrated to l10n.o.o as we speak and i18n will be killed including the svn prior Leap 42.2 release.

Sigh.

Well, that's the end for me. I won't be able to translate for openSUSE. Maybe other people will continue, who knows.

-- Cheers / Saludos,

Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar)

Hi, On the other side, I'm confident with this move and the possibilities it brings (translate of various branches simultaneously, up-to-date files directly taken from git, etc). If this new version have the missing things on 2.3 (coordinator and reviewer roles, etc) it will be a step forward in the situation we have now. Regards, Luiz -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-translation+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-translation+owner@opensuse.org

2016-03-21 14:50 GMT-03:00 Karl Ove Hufthammer :

Luiz Fernando Ranghetti skreiv 21. mars 2016 18:31:

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On the other side, I'm confident with this move and the possibilities it brings (translate of various branches simultaneously, up-to-date files directly taken from git, etc). If this new version have the missing things on 2.3 (coordinator and reviewer roles, etc) it will be a step forward in the situation we have now.

Sure, if this fixes the basic problems that 1) strings from the applications are not available to the translators, and 2) translations done by the translators aren’t incorporated into the (released) applications, that’s a *good thing*.

But that we have to completely change the tools we use for translating, to an inefficient Web-based tool lacking most of the tools we rely on for high-quality translations, and taking away our choice of editor to use, that’s a *bad thing*.

-- Karl Ove Hufthammer --

You can use the tools/editor you like, just download the .po file from weblate, do the magic, and upload it back. Eg: https://l10n.opensuse.org/projects/release-notes-opensuse/leap_42_1/pt_BR/ Files -> Dowload source file and after, Files -> Upload translation To lock the translation, so no one translate it, there is the option Tools -> Locking (this is what some teams use Vertaal to do) What is doesn't have now is the coordinator or reviewer roles (thinking about hierarchy). Regards, Luiz -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-translation+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-translation+owner@opensuse.org

2016-03-21 16:19 GMT-03:00 Karl Ove Hufthammer :

Luiz Fernando Ranghetti skreiv 21. mars 2016 19:00:

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You can use the tools/editor you like, just download the .po file from weblate, do the magic, and upload it back.

Eg:https://l10n.opensuse.org/projects/release-notes-opensuse/leap_42_1/pt_BR/ Files -> Dowload source file and after, Files -> Upload translation

Yes, I know. And that’s not helping on the efficiency part. Having to manually download and upload each file manually takes *a lot* of time. For typical maintenance work (e.g. changing a few strings here and there in a bunch of files), spend much more time on manually downloading and uploading files than on the actual translation and QA work. (I know, since I have to use the process for a few non-openSUSE projects.)

-- Karl Ove Hufthammer --

Hi, Maybe it could be implemented in this coordinator role its missing now. https://github.com/nijel/weblate/issues to add this enhancement request. Regards, Luiz -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-translation+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-translation+owner@opensuse.org

Luiz Fernando Ranghetti skreiv 21. mars 2016 22:11:

I ask this to the author and he says that he will implement some API to do this king of things for the new version 2.6:

https://github.com/nijel/weblate/issues/931

The specification is listed in this issue https://github.com/nijel/weblate/issues/416 Scope of API planned for 2.6 is to be able to handle basic translation wide operations: * Commit all changes. * Trigger pull. * Locking/unlocking translations. * Download translation file. * Upload translation file. * Listing of translation projects and components. This however needs some protection, OAuth is probably overkill here (and hard to manage for scripts), generating API key for each user should be good enough. If this is eventually getting implemented (the plans on the Github issue is from 2013), is going to work like it’s described and openSUSE would update to this version, I would be very happy with it. One can create some simple scripts and then work offline, using whatever editor and tools one prefers, just like with the SVN old system. Of course, one would probably want to run one’s own version control system (version control is important!), but now that we have distributed systems like Git, that’s easy. -- Karl Ove Hufthammer -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-translation+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-translation+owner@opensuse.org

Dne úterý 22. března 2016 11:09:30 CET, Carlos E. R. napsal(a):

On Tuesday, 2016-03-22 at 09:19 +0100, Karl Ove Hufthammer wrote:

...

If this is eventually getting implemented (the plans on the Github issue is from 2013), is going to work like it’s described and openSUSE would update to this version, I would be very happy with it. One can create some simple scripts and then work offline, using whatever editor and tools one prefers, just like with the SVN old system.

Of course, one would probably want to run one’s own version control system (version control is important!), but now that we have distributed systems like Git, that’s easy.

You mean that we would have to, each of us, keep and maintain a script that pulls all the translation files into our own machines, and have some version control in there?

All projects have their Git repositories. Git is responsible for version controlling. You can clone them, keep trace of changes, ask for commit access etc. The only problem is that each project has its own Git repository. Otherwise I don't see much problems in it.

Why not the, have it centralized, into the current svn?

SVN is deprecated, if I can say so. Git is the future. -- Vojtěch Zeisek Komunita openSUSE GNU/Linuxu Community of the openSUSE GNU/Linux https://www.opensuse.org/ https://trapa.cz/

Dne úterý 22. března 2016 11:28:13 CET, Tomas Chvatal napsal(a):

Just few points you two again seem to ignore.

1) There will be mass download and mass upload for the .po files. It is even one item we already have on the tracker of things to fix. And it was mentioned by Standa in the huge thread we had here.

Yes I know and I'm looking forward to it. Still, someone may prefer using command line. In that case I don't see much problems when creating a list of Git repositories and fetch/push them as any other Git repository.

2) New instance containing weblate 2.5 will be set up soon standa is now finishing up the migration on test server, he encountered problem with database migration so we are looking to that. 2) I proposed the KDE Summit/pology based translations as first solution back when we started and carlos started complaining how bad and evil it is. Thus we went with weblate to provide the reviews/etc as he wanted. We are not going to use that now simply not worth it since we really finished most of the tasklist for the weblate already.

Have fun

I do :-)

Tom -- Vojtěch Zeisek

Komunita openSUSE GNU/Linuxu Community of the openSUSE GNU/Linux https://www.opensuse.org/ https://trapa.cz/

Tomas Chvatal skreiv 22. mars 2016 11:28:

Just few points you two again seem to ignore.

Sorry, I don’t understand. Isn’t the points you are listing exactly the points we are discussing, not ignoring, or one that we had no information on?

1) There will be mass download and mass upload for the .po files.

This is great! This is the first official information we have gotten on this, so thank you for the information.

2) I proposed the KDE Summit/pology based translations as first solution back when we started and carlos started complaining how bad and evil it is.

References? I have also proposed it (and actually used it for translating openSUSE for a long time), but can’t remember Carlos saying it was ‘bas and evil’. One might dislike the merging of strings for separate branches (if one is only interested in translating a single branch), but the nice thing about the KDE Summit framework is that it’s completely optional. (For example, in KDE some teams use it and some don’t.)

Thus we went with weblate to provide the reviews/etc as he wanted. We are not going to use that now simply not worth it since we really finished most of the tasklist for the weblate already.

No problem. If we get mass downloading and uploading of PO/POT files, setting up a custom PO Summit framework (if one wants to) is easy peasy. -- Karl Ove Hufthammer -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-translation+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-translation+owner@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Content-ID: On Tuesday, 2016-03-22 at 11:16 +0100, Vojtěch Zeisek wrote:

Dne úterý 22. března 2016 11:09:30 CET, Carlos E. R. napsal(a):

...

On Tuesday, 2016-03-22 at 09:19 +0100, Karl Ove Hufthammer wrote:

...

You mean that we would have to, each of us, keep and maintain a script that pulls all the translation files into our own machines, and have some version control in there?

All projects have their Git repositories. Git is responsible for version controlling. You can clone them, keep trace of changes, ask for commit access etc. The only problem is that each project has its own Git repository. Otherwise I don't see much problems in it.

...

Why not the, have it centralized, into the current svn?

SVN is deprecated, if I can say so. Git is the future.

svn or git is mostly irrelevant (except for vertaal, will not work with git and will not be upgraded). The issue is having all translation files in a single directory or small tree of directories. Not a hundred projects in git. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAlbygT4ACgkQtTMYHG2NR9Vc6QCfT1aCRZ5xuW4vDW3vfLVImZny 0qoAn2+qXzxGllmI00pm/Z5cLuBoNhhC =ebf4 -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

Dne úterý 22. března 2016 11:19:47 CET, Karl Ove Hufthammer napsal(a):

Carlos E. R. skreiv 22. mars 2016 11:09:

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You mean that we would have to, each of us, keep and maintain a script that pulls all the translation files into our own machines, and have some version control in there?

Why not the, have it centralized, into the current svn?

Because the current SVN repository will be ‘killed’, according to the blog post.

Because it doesn't fit requirements anymore, AFAIK,,,

But we (the translators that are interested in offline translation) can of course create our own repository (perhaps on GitHub) for storing and sharing the scripts. And perhaps even the translation files?

They are among https://github.com/opensuse (I'm lazy to find them right now). -- Vojtěch Zeisek Komunita openSUSE GNU/Linuxu Community of the openSUSE GNU/Linux https://www.opensuse.org/ https://trapa.cz/

Ludwig Nussel skreiv 22. mars 2016 11:42:

So far the people involved in weblate were very open and active to implement features suggested also on this list. So I'd like to suggest to give weblate another try once the new version is deployed on l10n.opensuse.org which should be really soon now. As usual with new tools it will take a while to get used to it. Please give it a fair chance so issues can be addressed until the release.

Sure. Do you know what the plans are for actually updating the translation files *available for translation* in Weblate? Will there be some script doing this, or will we still be depending on the developers manually doing this? Currently, the translation files at l10n.opensuse.org are ~6 months old, while the source they’re for is frequently updated (perhaps every few days), so the translators using Weblate may be translating strings no longer exising in the applications and new strings introduced into the applications in the last 6 months are not available for translation.

Nevertheless please keep in mind that weblate resp l10n.opensuse.org will never be the only source of translations. In order to completely translate the distribution to a certain language, translators will have to be join upstream communities that use various other translations methods.

That’s good! The way Ubuntu handled this (with Rosetta and lather Launchpad) caused us translators of upstream projects no small amount of grief. -- Karl Ove Hufthammer -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-translation+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-translation+owner@opensuse.org

Ludwig Nussel skreiv 22. mars 2016 12:48:

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Sure. Do you know what the plans are for actually updating the translation files *available for translation* in Weblate? Will there be some script doing this, or will we still be depending on the developers manually doing this?

That depends on the software. The majority of sources are hosted on github nowadays (like zypp, website etc). Weblate will automatically pick up any pot file changes there and push back po files more or less immediately. So chances that translations run out of sync get minimized.

I don’t think that’s correct. Yes, Weblate will pick up any PO/POT file changes and push back PO files automatically, but that doesn’t help PO/POT files aren’t actually being updated. Whenever there is a change in the source code, someone (or something) still have to *update* the POT files (and merge the PO files with the POT files), Weblate doesn’t do the POT file updating, and it also doesn’t do the PO file merging. This lack of updated translation files/templates is one of the two major problems we’ve been having for years with the old SVN server. (The other problem was that the translated PO weren’t being included in the released applications. Weblate *does* fix this problem, since it automatically pushes translated PO files to the server, so that the developers don’t have to fetch them manually.) So unless there are scripts automatically running to update the POT and PO files, or strict procedures for the developers to follow (scripts to manually run after each Git commit), the chance that the translation files get out of sync isn’t ‘minimized’; it’s actually closer to 100%. (Unless I’ve misunderstood how Weblate is configured for openSUSE.) -- Karl Ove Hufthammer -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-translation+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-translation+owner@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Monday, 2016-03-21 at 15:00 -0300, Luiz Fernando Ranghetti wrote:

You can use the tools/editor you like, just download the .po file from weblate, do the magic, and upload it back.

No, unless all the files to translate are in a single directory per language. It is not feasible to go searching around to find the files to translate. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAlbwZAQACgkQtTMYHG2NR9WlnACeKWtEvPrqgoMm0bhXwlqzkXdr rE0AnRBcvoFC0BiRFJZJq6hiMe5AhYM0 =r1Ek -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-translation+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-translation+owner@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Monday, 2016-03-21 at 18:23 -0300, Luiz Fernando Ranghetti wrote:

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No, unless all the files to translate are in a single directory per language. It is not feasible to go searching around to find the files to translate.

So what should be done? Keep what we have? A svn which is not updated (for years someone [keichwa] has to poke all the developers to send the updated pot files, and then send back the translated files to svn, now git).

I don't know, but me, I will not go hunting files around. And I know others will not, either. I can do that for a few, really few files if they are really important. But openSUSE has about 150 files to translate (just looking at the 13.2 branch). If you want proven ideas, look at how kde team does it... - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAlbwawIACgkQtTMYHG2NR9VtFwCfSikcf1wXn6HCtcN6klGsgGN+ IIQAoItllbSldnLa0QcGa/qXVdxecaQK =xnA8 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-translation+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-translation+owner@opensuse.org