To the Testing Core Team: As you know, we have been discussing what we might do to increase the number of testers, particular as we approach the final release. The statement below will be sent to the openSUSE-project mailing list. If you wish to have your name added to the "proposal supported by" list, please let me know. This message will be mailed on Monday July 3, thus I need to know by then. Thanks, Larry ============================================================================== This is a request for changing the name of the MS6 release to Beta. The Testing Core Team (TCT) discussed the general problem of testing of new releases. With openQA, the probability that Factory iso's will boot and install is greatly increased; however, with the current system, many users do not start testing until RC1 is ready. As a result, there is very little time for detecting and fixing the bugs that will only be seen with a workload that is diverse. Such early testing will be particularly important for 12.1. Not only have we regularized the release schedule and naming scheme and need to follow through with a high-quality product, but we are behind due to the early build problems. The TCT considered several possible changes to entice earlier and broader testing. The schedule does not have much flexibility to increase the time between the RC1 and GM releases, thus we probably need to indulge in some 'social engineering' to get earlier testing. We could change from 6 Milestone and 2 RC releases to 5 and 3, respectively, without tampering with the total time. Alternatively, we could rename from MS6 to Beta. The TCT favors the latter option. It might mislead the users/testers a little regarding the quality of the offering, but I don't think calling MS6 "Beta" is misleading. By most definitions, Beta means feature-complete and free of huge bugs - we should be able to get that with MS6. A beta release should attract more users. In addition, many of us start full-time usage with MS5 or MS6, thus we know it to be usable for many people. Thanks for considering this proposal to further enhance the user experience and the quality of the final 12.1 release. This proposal is supported by Larry Finger, Bernhard M. Wiedemann, Refilwe Seete, Holger Sickenberg, and ... -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-testing+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-testing+help@opensuse.org
Le 28/06/2011 03:17, Larry Finger a écrit :
To the Testing Core Team: As you know, we have been discussing what we might do to increase the number of testers, particular as we approach the final release. The statement below will be sent to the openSUSE-project mailing list.
IMHO you are completely wrong. Sorry. The naming Have nothing to do with the number of testers. May be using more this very list (opensuse-testing) could be a beginning. Now most testing problems are described on factory list and this should not be the case, but the testing list is so empty anybody is scared to post to it. IRC is not the good way to manage testing as tests can't be done real time. To allow more testing, we have to have a factory distro usable from the beginning*, at least for basic work. And, do you know? *We have* I use Factory for the first time right from the beginning, and it works extremely well for an early stage. The only real problem that prevent me from using it every day is the integration with packman (I use mostly multimedia applications), but for web applications (browsing, emailing...) it's very good. So the roadmap to attract testers is (IMHO): * add changes in factory (from the stable release) in a reasonable pace, allowing at least upgrade from stable release (done for factory 12.1) - I noticed (but not used) that factory seems to have a "stable" variant? (I don't understand exactly), may be this variant is usable? * Make test priority (this week, please test..." with bugzilla instant following * build an "instant answer" team on bugzilla. Bugzilla is extremely busy (I'm subscribed to the bugzilla list), but some bugreports seems to have no answer. Even an answer "sorry we can't work this right now, please wait" is better than none. Factory systems are extremely volatile (they change each day or so), so any "needinfo" done a week after the report is pointless. * stop saying "factory don't have to be used in production :-). The crazy warning message was already fixed ("no assistance will be made") thanks. * when a major bug is found on some config, ask on the more wide lists to people having similar hardware. I have a poulsbo netbook video card and was deligthed to see the driver on 2.6.39, I'm ready to help testing it (but was not asked to do so, even after having reported a bug) * early advertising as "factory works quite well on XXX hardware, you are encouraged to use it" could also widen the user base. * don't be shy, Factory is vey good!! better than ever!!:-) jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://www.youtube.com/user/jdddodinorg http://jdd.blip.tv/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-testing+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-testing+help@opensuse.org
Le 28/06/2011 03:17, Larry Finger a écrit :
To the Testing Core Team: As you know, we have been discussing what we might do to increase the number of testers, particular as we approach the final release. The statement below will be sent to the openSUSE-project mailing list.
IMHO you are completely wrong. Sorry.
The naming Have nothing to do with the number of testers. It is related. It can be seen from traffic on the factory mailing list,
Hello, On 06/29/2011 09:27 AM, jdd wrote: the Hungarian S.u.S.E. mailing list and also my experience with an upstream project, syslog-ng, where I'm community manager. The first widespread testing comes with beta and even more with RC.
* Make test priority (this week, please test..." with bugzilla instant following
This would help. A new priority every week, with affected developers listening on bugzilla and probably also on IRC would be very helpful. I see, that it works fine for Fedora.
* stop saying "factory don't have to be used in production :-). The crazy warning message was already fixed ("no assistance will be made") thanks.
Well, it can be used, but only with a few years of Linux experience, not for new users. Also not practical where downtime costs $$$.
* early advertising as "factory works quite well on XXX hardware, you are encouraged to use it" could also widen the user base.
For that you need to do some recruitment work on non devel mailing lists and forums. But for beginner users I'd still not recommend it. Just think of packman and binary nVidia / ATI drivers. Bye, CzP -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-testing+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-testing+help@opensuse.org
Le 29/06/2011 11:15, Peter Czanik a écrit :
upstream project, syslog-ng, where I'm community manager. The first widespread testing comes with beta and even more with RC.
yes, but that's true whatever you name them. People are instructed not to use them :-). I Have to say that it was pretty true until now for openSUSE. It's the first time I see a so good factory :-)
and forums. But for beginner users I'd still not recommend it. Just think of packman and binary nVidia / ATI drivers.
beginners are not our target, anyway. And we need beginner testers :-)). Where will you find them? jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://www.youtube.com/user/jdddodinorg http://jdd.blip.tv/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-testing+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-testing+help@opensuse.org
On 06/29/2011 11:55 AM, jdd wrote:
Le 29/06/2011 11:15, Peter Czanik a écrit :
upstream project, syslog-ng, where I'm community manager. The first widespread testing comes with beta and even more with RC.
yes, but that's true whatever you name them. People are instructed not to use them :-). I Have to say that it was pretty true until now for openSUSE. It's the first time I see a so good factory :-)
and forums. But for beginner users I'd still not recommend it. Just think of packman and binary nVidia / ATI drivers.
beginners are not our target, anyway. And we need beginner testers :-)). Where will you find them?
jdd
The worst can always come tomorrow. And has been already seen in the past ... -- Bruno Friedmann Ioda-Net Sàrl www.ioda-net.ch openSUSE Member & Ambassador GPG KEY : D5C9B751C4653227 irc: tigerfoot -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-testing+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-testing+help@opensuse.org
jdd wrote:
May be using more this very list (opensuse-testing) could be a beginning. Now most testing problems are described on factory list and this should not be the case, but the testing list is so empty anybody is scared to post to it.
I've always wondered what this list was really for.
So the roadmap to attract testers is (IMHO):
* add changes in factory (from the stable release) in a reasonable pace, allowing at least upgrade from stable release (done for factory 12.1) - I noticed (but not used) that factory seems to have a "stable" variant? (I don't understand exactly), may be this variant is usable?
* Make test priority (this week, please test..." with bugzilla instant following
Has anyone considered a scheme of test-cases? /Per Jessen, Zürich -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-testing+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-testing+help@opensuse.org
Le 30/06/2011 13:42, Per Jessen a écrit :
Has anyone considered a scheme of test-cases?
I once asked for an account on testopia, but after having one didn't understand how to use it :-( but yes, having a more organized test system would be good jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://www.youtube.com/user/jdddodinorg http://jdd.blip.tv/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-testing+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-testing+help@opensuse.org
On 06/30/2011 07:15 AM, jdd wrote:
Le 30/06/2011 13:42, Per Jessen a écrit :
Has anyone considered a scheme of test-cases?
I once asked for an account on testopia, but after having one didn't understand how to use it :-(
but yes, having a more organized test system would be good
I agree that testopia is not nearly the "Testing Utopia" that the name would suggest. The tests the Bernhard does with openQA go a long way towards satisfying the "organized testing" requirement. They detect the faults that will affect nearly everybody. Where the current system fails is in finding the bugs associated with hardware and/or software requirements that are outside most users patterns, but still affect many people. Finding and fixing those require attracting more testers. The bugs that are associated with nouveau and other KMS video drivers are examples that cause a lot of problems. The current drivers properly handle some systems, but a lot more result in X failures. Nothing other than getting the users to test and file bug reports will help. Larry -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-testing+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-testing+help@opensuse.org
On 06/28/2011 03:17 AM, Larry Finger wrote:
To the Testing Core Team: As you know, we have been discussing what we might do to increase the number of testers, particular as we approach the final release. The statement below will be sent to the openSUSE-project mailing list.
If you wish to have your name added to the "proposal supported by" list, please let me know. This message will be mailed on Monday July 3, thus I need to know by then.
I am not part of TCT but FWIW I do support this proposal. Regards. -- Ismail Dönmez - openSUSE Booster SUSE LINUX Products GmbH Maxfeldstr. 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany GF: Jeff Hawn, Jennifer Guild, Felix Imendörffer, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-testing+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-testing+help@opensuse.org
On 06/28/2011 03:17 AM, Larry Finger wrote:
To the Testing Core Team: As you know, we have been discussing what we might do to increase the number of testers, particular as we approach the final release. The statement below will be sent to the openSUSE-project mailing list.
If you wish to have your name added to the "proposal supported by" list, please let me know. This message will be mailed on Monday July 3, thus I need to know by then.
Thanks, Larry
==============================================================================
This is a request for changing the name of the MS6 release to Beta.
The Testing Core Team (TCT) discussed the general problem of testing of new releases. With openQA, the probability that Factory iso's will boot and install is greatly increased; however, with the current system, many users do not start testing until RC1 is ready. As a result, there is very little time for detecting and fixing the bugs that will only be seen with a workload that is diverse. Such early testing will be particularly important for 12.1. Not only have we regularized the release schedule and naming scheme and need to follow through with a high-quality product, but we are behind due to the early build problems.
The TCT considered several possible changes to entice earlier and broader testing. The schedule does not have much flexibility to increase the time between the RC1 and GM releases, thus we probably need to indulge in some 'social engineering' to get earlier testing. We could change from 6 Milestone and 2 RC releases to 5 and 3, respectively, without tampering with the total time. Alternatively, we could rename from MS6 to Beta. The TCT favors the latter option. It might mislead the users/testers a little regarding the quality of the offering, but I don't think calling MS6 "Beta" is misleading. By most definitions, Beta means feature-complete and free of huge bugs - we should be able to get that with MS6.
A beta release should attract more users. In addition, many of us start full-time usage with MS5 or MS6, thus we know it to be usable for many people. Thanks for considering this proposal to further enhance the user experience and the quality of the final 12.1 release.
This proposal is supported by Larry Finger, Bernhard M. Wiedemann, Refilwe Seete, Holger Sickenberg, and ...
And me support that too. -- Bruno Friedmann Ioda-Net Sàrl www.ioda-net.ch openSUSE Member & Ambassador GPG KEY : D5C9B751C4653227 irc: tigerfoot -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-testing+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-testing+help@opensuse.org
Am Dienstag 28 Juni 2011, 03:17:42 schrieb Larry Finger:
To the Testing Core Team: As you know, we have been discussing what we might do to increase the number of testers, particular as we approach the final release. The statement below will be sent to the openSUSE-project mailing list.
If you wish to have your name added to the "proposal supported by" list, please let me know. This message will be mailed on Monday July 3, thus I need to know by then.
Thanks, Larry
=========================================================================== ===
This is a request for changing the name of the MS6 release to Beta.
The Testing Core Team (TCT) discussed the general problem of testing of new releases. With openQA, the probability that Factory iso's will boot and install is greatly increased; however, with the current system, many users do not start testing until RC1 is ready. As a result, there is very little time for detecting and fixing the bugs that will only be seen with a workload that is diverse. Such early testing will be particularly important for 12.1. Not only have we regularized the release schedule and naming scheme and need to follow through with a high-quality product, but we are behind due to the early build problems.
The TCT considered several possible changes to entice earlier and broader testing. The schedule does not have much flexibility to increase the time between the RC1 and GM releases, thus we probably need to indulge in some 'social engineering' to get earlier testing. We could change from 6 Milestone and 2 RC releases to 5 and 3, respectively, without tampering with the total time. Alternatively, we could rename from MS6 to Beta. The TCT favors the latter option. It might mislead the users/testers a little regarding the quality of the offering, but I don't think calling MS6 "Beta" is misleading. By most definitions, Beta means feature-complete and free of huge bugs - we should be able to get that with MS6.
A beta release should attract more users. In addition, many of us start full-time usage with MS5 or MS6, thus we know it to be usable for many people. Thanks for considering this proposal to further enhance the user experience and the quality of the final 12.1 release.
This proposal is supported by Larry Finger, Bernhard M. Wiedemann, Refilwe Seete, Holger Sickenberg, and ...
Hi Larry, I will support the proposal, BETA sounds better than Milestone :) Regards Jürgen -- ---------- powered by http://openSUSE.org ---------- Jürgen Radzuweit Am Steinebrück 23 40589 Düsseldorf Telefon : 0211/788 5115 Mobil : 0172/210 4989 EMail : juergen@radzuweit.eu -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-testing+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-testing+help@opensuse.org
participants (7)
-
Bruno Friedmann -
Ismail Doenmez -
jdd -
Jürgen Radzuweit -
Larry Finger -
Per Jessen -
Peter Czanik