This may or may not be the list, but I'm sure everyone has gone through this. I have two 8.1 boxes and one 8.0 box. YOU on 8.1 does not want to work correctly. I've looked on the downloads/updates/patches site and manually updated the yast2 packages for YOU. However, this still doesn't seem to fix the error of hanging while "Initiallizing for HTTP/FTP..." Is this something to just live with or has someone worked past this issue? Thanks, -Bryan
On Fri, Feb 21, 2003 at 11:40:40AM -0600, Bryan Smith wrote:
This may or may not be the list, but I'm sure everyone has gone through this.
I have two 8.1 boxes and one 8.0 box. YOU on 8.1 does not want to work correctly. I've looked on the downloads/updates/patches site and manually updated the yast2 packages for YOU. However, this still doesn't seem to fix the error of hanging while "Initiallizing for HTTP/FTP..."
Is this something to just live with or has someone worked past this issue?
then use fou4s (http://fou4s.gaugusch.at/) ... maybe you want to check your proxy settings for wget? --passive-ftp may help, and check the http_proxy and ftp_proxy environment variables. Lars
* Bryan Smith
I have two 8.1 boxes and one 8.0 box. YOU on 8.1 does not want to work correctly. I've looked on the downloads/updates/patches site and manually updated the yast2 packages for YOU. However, this still doesn't seem to fix the error of hanging while "Initiallizing for HTTP/FTP..."
edit /etc/wgetrc and set "passive_ftp = on" Klaus
Hi Klaus,
--- Klaus Kaempf
* Bryan Smith
[Feb 21. 2003 18:40]: I have two 8.1 boxes and one 8.0 box. YOU on 8.1 does not
want to work
correctly. I've looked on the downloads/updates/patches site and manually updated the yast2 packages for YOU. However, this still doesn't seem to fix the error of hanging while "Initiallizing for HTTP/FTP..."
edit /etc/wgetrc and set "passive_ftp = on"
Is this a hint, a workaround OR the official solution/recommendation? Thanks Eduard P.S. BTW, congratulations to SuSE - on IDF AMD was demonstrating their Athlon 64 running Unreal Tournament 2003 on a 64bit SuSE!!! __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more http://taxes.yahoo.com/
Hi
edit /etc/wgetrc and set "passive_ftp = on"
Is this a hint, a workaround OR the official solution/recommendation?
Pardon me for being to slow to wake up but... I've reproduced the same thing here. YaST2 breaks up and all kinds of error messages begin to appear all over the console. Adding the line "passive_ftp=on" doesn't make a difference. Still doesn't download the updates. Maybe I need to re-start something ? Is there a fix for this ? -- Thanks Richard www.sheflug.co.uk
On Sun, 23 Feb 2003, Richard Ibbotson wrote:
Hi
edit /etc/wgetrc and set "passive_ftp = on"
Is this a hint, a workaround OR the official solution/recommendation?
Pardon me for being to slow to wake up but... I've reproduced the same thing here. YaST2 breaks up and all kinds of error messages begin to appear all over the console. Adding the line "passive_ftp=on" doesn't make a difference. Still doesn't download the updates. Maybe I need to re-start something ?
Is there a fix for this ?
I've also experienced YOU locking up at the 'initializing for ftp/http...' message. No error messages, no crash. Task locked up - I have to kill it 20 minutes later when I'm convinced its going nowhere. This behaviour began several months ago, after one or two successful YOU updates. Was there a broken YOU update published at some point? I see the following patch was applied: /var/lib/YaST2/you/i386/update/8.1/rpm/i586/yast2-online-update-2.6.14-0.i586.patch.rpm -- Rick Green "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin
On Sun, Feb 23, 2003 at 09:15:41AM -0500, Rick Green wrote:
On Sun, 23 Feb 2003, Richard Ibbotson wrote: I've also experienced YOU locking up at the 'initializing for ftp/http...' message. No error messages, no crash. Task locked up - I have to kill it 20 minutes later when I'm convinced its going nowhere. This behaviour began several months ago, after one or two successful YOU updates. Was there a broken YOU update published at some point?
I see the following patch was applied: /var/lib/YaST2/you/i386/update/8.1/rpm/i586/yast2-online-update-2.6.14-0.i586.patch.rpm
$ rpm -q yast2-online-update yast2-online-update-2.6.14-0 it is working for me, no problems. though I normaly use my imroved version of fou4s ;) btw, to verify whether fou4s has done a good job: /sbin/yast2 online_update \ .url dir:///var/cache/fou4s/packages/<name of server here>/ if you add "test" to that commandline, you even need not be root... cheers, Lars
Lars <Lars>> $ rpm -q yast2-online-update <Lars>> yast2-online-update-2.6.14-0 Hmm.. mine says.. yast2-online-update-2.6.12-10. Maybe this is the problem ? <Lars >>what kind of error messages?? Umm.. problem with asking this is that they scroll down the screen very quickly and I can't see what's happening. If there's a log somewhere I might be able to have a look in there. -- Thanks Richard
Hi
<Lars>> $ rpm -q yast2-online-update <Lars>> yast2-online-update-2.6.14-0 Hmm.. mine says.. yast2-online-update-2.6.12-10. Maybe this is the problem ?
Well, installing and running fou4s version 0.8.0 downloads the yast2-online-update-2.6.14-0 RPM. I now find that YaST2 no longer breaks up on the console but stands still. Analysis of ftp traffic suggests that nothing is happening. As if waiitng for an anser from a server. I know that after using YaST2 on SuSE 8.0 for updates then YaST2 is much quicker and much more reliable than this. Seems like YaST2 is buggy in SuSE 8.1 :) -- Thanks Richard
On Sun, Feb 23, 2003 at 04:05:33PM +0000, Richard Ibbotson wrote:
Well, installing and running fou4s version 0.8.0 downloads the yast2-online-update-2.6.14-0 RPM. I now find that YaST2 no longer breaks up on the console but stands still.
as I said, it is working for me without problems. with and without firewall.
Analysis of ftp traffic suggests that nothing is happening. As if waiitng for an anser from a server.
you are sure about your proxy and passive_ftp settings?
Lars
you are sure about your proxy and passive_ftp settings?
I think this may be the reason why I am coming up with stupid answers.... /root/.wgetrc proxy_user= proxy_passwd= passive_ftp=on What are the top two lines that make it work ? Can't find any man pages or docs for this. Thank you Richard
this gets OFF TOPIC On Sun, Feb 23, 2003 at 06:46:22PM +0000, Richard Ibbotson wrote:
I think this may be the reason why I am coming up with stupid answers....
/root/.wgetrc
proxy_user= proxy_passwd= passive_ftp=on
What are the top two lines that make it work ? Can't find any man pages or docs for this.
in case you use a proxy (check environment variables http_proxy and ftp_proxy), you may need to authenticate against that. if you do not know, you probably don't use one. so just ignore.
On Sun, Feb 23, 2003 at 02:50:30PM +0000, Richard Ibbotson wrote:
<Lars>> $ rpm -q yast2-online-update <Lars>> yast2-online-update-2.6.14-0
Hmm.. mine says.. yast2-online-update-2.6.12-10. Maybe this is the problem ?
<Lars >>what kind of error messages??
Umm.. problem with asking this is that they scroll down the screen very quickly and I can't see what's happening. If there's a log somewhere I might be able to have a look in there.
a) yast2 online_update 2>&1 | tee tmp.log ?? b) less /var/log/YaST2/y2log ??
Hi Friends
YOU on SuSE 8.1 is working very fine for me since past 6 months on an Analog
28.8 KBPS connection and also on Digital 64KBPS ISDN Connection, both
dialups.
In the night I leave office with yast online_update .auto.get and
yast_online_update .auto.install and find the whole thing patched in the
morning.
And also since I have configured the dial-up so after download of pacthes
the net connections stops.
So that proves YOU is not buggy in 8.1
-- Amit
----- Original Message -----
From: "Richard Ibbotson"
Lars
<Lars>> $ rpm -q yast2-online-update <Lars>> yast2-online-update-2.6.14-0
Hmm.. mine says.. yast2-online-update-2.6.12-10. Maybe this is the problem ?
<Lars >>what kind of error messages??
Umm.. problem with asking this is that they scroll down the screen very quickly and I can't see what's happening. If there's a log somewhere I might be able to have a look in there.
-- Thanks
Richard
-- Check the headers for your unsubscription address For additional commands, e-mail: suse-security-help@suse.com Security-related bug reports go to security@suse.de, not here
20 minutes? YOU takes *over an hour* to create a patch list on my old Armada notebook. There's no hint YOU is working, just that silly "initializing for ftp/http update" message. Michael Rick Green wrote:
On Sun, 23 Feb 2003, Richard Ibbotson wrote:
Hi
edit /etc/wgetrc and set "passive_ftp = on"
Is this a hint, a workaround OR the official solution/recommendation?
Pardon me for being to slow to wake up but... I've reproduced the same thing here. YaST2 breaks up and all kinds of error messages begin to appear all over the console. Adding the line "passive_ftp=on" doesn't make a difference. Still doesn't download the updates. Maybe I need to re-start something ?
Is there a fix for this ?
I've also experienced YOU locking up at the 'initializing for ftp/http...' message. No error messages, no crash. Task locked up - I have to kill it 20 minutes later when I'm convinced its going nowhere. This behaviour began several months ago, after one or two successful YOU updates. Was there a broken YOU update published at some point?
I see the following patch was applied: /var/lib/YaST2/you/i386/update/8.1/rpm/i586/yast2-online-update-2.6.14-0.i586.patch.rpm
Half an hour is "normal" on my AMD Athlon750/128MB RAM/20GB HDD for YOU to build this list ... With iptraf I see *lots* of connections to the ftp server, which are only used shortly, then the next connection is going on for a while, and so on, very slow motion ... Philipp acidrein schrieb:
20 minutes? YOU takes *over an hour* to create a patch list on my old Armada notebook. There's no hint YOU is working, just that silly "initializing for ftp/http update" message.
Michael
Rick Green wrote:
On Sun, 23 Feb 2003, Richard Ibbotson wrote:
Hi
edit /etc/wgetrc and set "passive_ftp = on"
Is this a hint, a workaround OR the official solution/recommendation?
Pardon me for being to slow to wake up but... I've reproduced the same thing here. YaST2 breaks up and all kinds of error messages begin to appear all over the console. Adding the line "passive_ftp=on" doesn't make a difference. Still doesn't download the updates. Maybe I need to re-start something ?
Is there a fix for this ?
I've also experienced YOU locking up at the 'initializing for ftp/http...' message. No error messages, no crash. Task locked up - I have to kill it 20 minutes later when I'm convinced its going nowhere. This behaviour began several months ago, after one or two successful YOU updates. Was there a broken YOU update published at some point?
I see the following patch was applied: /var/lib/YaST2/you/i386/update/8.1/rpm/i586/yast2-online-update-2.6.14-0.i586.patch.rpm
On Sun, Feb 23, 2003 at 08:14:29PM +0100, Philipp Rusch wrote:
Half an hour is "normal" on my AMD Athlon750/128MB RAM/20GB HDD for YOU to build this list ... With iptraf I see *lots* of connections to the ftp server, which are only used shortly, then the next connection is going on for a while, and so on, very slow motion ...
Philipp
FYI: pentium classic 120 MHz , fou4s (improved by me ;), second run, asking two rsync servers and ftp.suse.com directly just to be sure: $ cat /proc/cpuinfo vendor_id : GenuineIntel model name : Pentium 75 - 200 cpu MHz : 120.275 ... $ time fou4s-lge -ue Updateing /var/cache/fou4s/rpmcache..johann ... cached info seems up to date. Session start: /home/lars/bin/fou4s-lge --config /home/lars/.fou4s.lge -ue receiving file list ... done wrote 110 bytes read 3534 bytes 1041.14 bytes/sec total size is 333606 speedup is 91.55 receiving file list ... done wrote 137 bytes read 2720 bytes 1142.80 bytes/sec total size is 333606 speedup is 116.77 19:48:42 URL: ftp://ftp.suse.com/pub/suse/i386/update/8.1/patches/ [8034] -> ".listing" [1] 19:48:46 URL: ftp://ftp.suse.com/pub/suse/i386/update/8.1/patches/zope-mysql-17909 [1473] -> "zope-mysql-17909" [1] FINISHED --19:48:46-- Downloaded: 9,507 bytes in 2 files --- fou4s status for johann [2003-02-23 20:48:49] 327 description files have been checked, 109 thereof have actually been parsed, containing 0 relevant update packages 0 packages need to be updated --- normal exit real 0m24.634s user 0m5.460s sys 0m0.970s
* Bryan Smith
[Feb 21. 2003 18:40]: doesn't seem to fix the error of hanging while "Initiallizing for HTTP/FTP..."
maybe you did not wait long enough?
YOU is not that fast sometimes ...
check whether there is ftp traffic going on
tcpdump -evX port 21 host
edit /etc/wgetrc and set "passive_ftp = on"
Is this a hint, a workaround OR the official solution/recommendation?
more a hint/recommendation if you run behind a firewall. if you YOU as root, /root/.wgetrc may be the plave to put it.
Pardon me for being to slow to wake up but... I've reproduced the same thing here. YaST2 breaks up and all kinds of error messages begin to appear all over the console. Adding the line "passive_ftp=on" what kind of error messages??
doesn't make a difference. Still doesn't download the updates. hm.
Lars
YOU does work on all PCs I know only with 8.0, never bevor and not in 8.1. I use fou4s. Manfred Rebentisch Am Freitag, 21. Februar 2003 18:40 schrieb Bryan Smith:
This may or may not be the list, but I'm sure everyone has gone through this.
I have two 8.1 boxes and one 8.0 box. YOU on 8.1 does not want to work correctly. I've looked on the downloads/updates/patches site and manually updated the yast2 packages for YOU. However, this still doesn't seem to fix the error of hanging while "Initiallizing for HTTP/FTP..."
Is this something to just live with or has someone worked past this issue?
Thanks,
-Bryan
-- COMPARAT Software-Entwicklungs-GmbH Mobile Voice Solutions Prießstr. 16, 23558 Lübeck Tel: 0451/479 56 60 Fax: 0451/871 090 26 http://www.comparat.de http://www.mobile-voice.de
Just want to thank everyone for their responses. I was kind of expecting that many people were having the same issues. I've switched over to fou4s and its working just great. -Bryan Manfred Rebentisch wrote:
YOU does work on all PCs I know only with 8.0, never bevor and not in 8.1. I use fou4s. Manfred Rebentisch
Am Freitag, 21. Februar 2003 18:40 schrieb Bryan Smith:
This may or may not be the list, but I'm sure everyone has gone through this.
I have two 8.1 boxes and one 8.0 box. YOU on 8.1 does not want to work correctly. I've looked on the downloads/updates/patches site and manually updated the yast2 packages for YOU. However, this still doesn't seem to fix the error of hanging while "Initiallizing for HTTP/FTP..."
Is this something to just live with or has someone worked past this issue?
Thanks,
-Bryan
On Sun, Feb 23, 2003 at 09:20:14PM +0100, Manfred Rebentisch wrote:
YOU does work on all PCs I know only with 8.0, never bevor and not in 8.1. see below
I use fou4s. I'm sure happy about that :)
Lars FYI: from update/8.1/patches/yast2-packagemanager-1 Longdescription.english: Patch for the YaST Online Update. If you get an error while downloading the patch the SDB article at http://sdb.suse.de/de/sdb/html/81_you2.html might help to fix the problem. This patch has to be installed to get all available patches. It fixes the following problems: All packages of a patch were downloaded, not only those which were being installed. Packages: liby2util-2.6.21-0 liby2util-devel-2.6.21-0 yast2-core-2.6.53-8 yast2-core-devel-2.6.53-8 yast2-ncurses-2.6.21-0 yast2-online-update-2.6.14-0 yast2-packagemanager-2.6.44-2 yast2-packagemanager-devel-2.6.44-2 yast2-qt-2.6.23-43 and update/8.1//patches/you-1: Longdescription.english: Patch for the YaST Online Update. This patch has to be installed to get all available patches. It fixes the following problems. YOU didn't use passive FTP for accessing FTP servers. Download of external RPMs failed. Execution of scripts contained in a patch failed. Packages: yast2-packagemanager-2.6.36-2 yast2-core-2.6.47-9 yast2-packager-2.6.63-3
--- Lars Ellenberg
On Sun, Feb 23, 2003 at 09:20:14PM +0100, Manfred Rebentisch wrote:
YOU does work on all PCs I know only with 8.0, never bevor and not in 8.1. see below
I use fou4s. I'm sure happy about that :)
It seems that fou4s does the job better then YOU. Are there any ideas, like: 1. Including fou4s in the distribution 2. Merging fou4s into YOU 3. Replacing YOU by fou4s Cheers Eduard __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more http://taxes.yahoo.com/
On Feb 24, Eduard Avetisyan
It seems that fou4s does the job better then YOU. Are there any ideas, like: 1. Including fou4s in the distribution As author of fou4s I can say that I have not contacted SuSE directly to do so. I'll do, once it is 1.0. But at the moment this is pretty complicated because Lars Ellenberg rewrote it completely (no code from me), and I'm unsure which branch should be developed further. His is much faster, mine is well tested :)
2. Merging fou4s into YOU Don't think, that this is possible (YCP vs. bash, GUI, ...)
3. Replacing YOU by fou4s I think that both have its right to live (easy GUI vs. good automation).
Markus -- __________________ /"\ Markus Gaugusch \ / ASCII Ribbon Campaign markus@gaugusch.at X Against HTML Mail / \
On Friday 21 February 2003 07:40 pm, Bryan Smith wrote:
This may or may not be the list, but I'm sure everyone has gone through this.
I have two 8.1 boxes and one 8.0 box. YOU on 8.1 does not want to work correctly. I've looked on the downloads/updates/patches site and manually updated the yast2 packages for YOU. However, this still doesn't seem to fix the error of hanging while "Initiallizing for HTTP/FTP..."
Is this something to just live with or has someone worked past this issue?
Could it depend on how you are connected to Internet, ie. does it get proper access to sites such as ftp.leo.org or whatever are configured for onlineupdate? I wanted mine to check from a local NFS share and it needed disabling a setting in the /etc/sysconfig/onlineupdate for NOT connecting/loading the initial FTP servers - as that would produce an error since my firewall did not let all of that out. And besides I wanted it to get it faster from local source. This setting is: YAST2_LOADFTPSERVER="no" The only problem I have had with downloading and installing patches was this. Then again, I don't run them fully automatically. But if your situation is different then this message is of no use:-( [And that would mean that you want it from official ftp sites but something between you machine and the sites is blocking the connection?] regards, timo
timo
Could it depend on how you are connected to Internet, ie. does it get proper access to sites such as ftp.leo.org or whatever are configured for onlineupdate?
I think it (also) depends on which mirror you select. YaST was pre-selecting leo.org but it was taking an exceptionally long time to bring up the list of patches. Manually selecting gwdg.de improved the speed considerably.
On Mon, 24 Feb 2003 07:01:52 +0000
Graham Murray
|> Could it depend on how you are connected to Internet, ie. does it get |> proper access to sites such as ftp.leo.org or whatever are configured |> for onlineupdate? | |I think it (also) depends on which mirror you select. YaST was |pre-selecting leo.org but it was taking an exceptionally long time to |bring up the list of patches. Manually selecting gwdg.de improved the |speed considerably. |
I have same problems for a couple of months ago, since I discovered fou4s all work fine, but I change for trying /etc/wgetrc and set passive_fto to on as Klaus Kaempf told and no more probles with YOU, also using leo.org it's took less than 4 minutes to d/l and install 2 selected patches, over a 64 Kbits cablemodem connection.
Also I'm still working with fou4s over 8.1 and trying it over SLES 8 and OpenExchange 4 with good results in both cases.
I have changed our "URL Multiplexer (tm :-)" to give http URLs instead of ftp URLs for 8.1 and up users earlier on Monday. That should speed up things tremendously. Roman.
On Monday 24 February 2003 10:04 pm, Roman Drahtmueller wrote:
|> Could it depend on how you are connected to Internet, ie. does it |> get proper access to sites such as ftp.leo.org or whatever are |> configured for onlineupdate? | |I think it (also) depends on which mirror you select. YaST was |pre-selecting leo.org but it was taking an exceptionally long time to |bring up the list of patches. Manually selecting gwdg.de improved the |speed considerably.
I have same problems for a couple of months ago, since I discovered fou4s all work fine, but I change for trying /etc/wgetrc and set passive_fto to on as Klaus Kaempf told and no more probles with YOU, also using leo.org it's took less than 4 minutes to d/l and install 2 selected patches, over a 64 Kbits cablemodem connection.
Also I'm still working with fou4s over 8.1 and trying it over SLES 8 and OpenExchange 4 with good results in both cases.
I have changed our "URL Multiplexer (tm :-)" to give http URLs instead of ftp URLs for 8.1 and up users earlier on Monday. That should speed up things tremendously.
Roman.
WOW! Now that's more like it! Thanks for tweaking the URL Multiplexer for us. Any chance of adding a progress bar and/or an elapsed time indicator for YOU? THANKS! Stan
WOW! Now that's more like it! Thanks for tweaking the URL Multiplexer for us.
Any chance of adding a progress bar and/or an elapsed time indicator for YOU?
It's not so easy... Basically, you need to know how much time it will take. If there are only 5 patches there, you can't do any reasonable estimate. With 50, you might be able to do so after 10, but still, it doesn't buy you much. 8.2 will have a lot of work done on YOU again. Roman.
This is probably starting to drift OT ... But I just have one little thing
to add about YOU and update related issues. One thing SuSE really needs to
work on is getting a couple of more (high speed) mirrors up with all their
updates. Whenever a new patch or update is released then it can be virtually
impossible to get it downloaded using YOU because the (few) mirrors that
have the latest updates are so incredibly slow. But other than that I like
SuSE a lot ... especially for when used for the desktop.
-Claus
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roman Drahtmueller"
WOW! Now that's more like it! Thanks for tweaking the URL Multiplexer
for
us.
Any chance of adding a progress bar and/or an elapsed time indicator for YOU?
It's not so easy... Basically, you need to know how much time it will take. If there are only 5 patches there, you can't do any reasonable estimate. With 50, you might be able to do so after 10, but still, it doesn't buy you much.
8.2 will have a lot of work done on YOU again.
Roman.
-- Check the headers for your unsubscription address For additional commands, e-mail: suse-security-help@suse.com Security-related bug reports go to security@suse.de, not here
If you look at the downloads section on the suse support web site, you can find a half dozen or so mirrors in the us. I've found them to be fast and reliable. -Steve On Tuesday 25 February 2003 10:29 am, Claus Lund wrote:
This is probably starting to drift OT ... But I just have one little thing to add about YOU and update related issues. One thing SuSE really needs to work on is getting a couple of more (high speed) mirrors up with all their updates. Whenever a new patch or update is released then it can be virtually impossible to get it downloaded using YOU because the (few) mirrors that have the latest updates are so incredibly slow. But other than that I like SuSE a lot ... especially for when used for the desktop.
-Claus
----- Original Message ----- From: "Roman Drahtmueller"
To: "Stan Glasoe" Cc: Sent: Tuesday, February 25, 2003 1:11 PM Subject: Re: [suse-security] YOU on SuSE 8.1 WOW! Now that's more like it! Thanks for tweaking the URL Multiplexer
for
us.
Any chance of adding a progress bar and/or an elapsed time indicator for YOU?
It's not so easy... Basically, you need to know how much time it will take. If there are only 5 patches there, you can't do any reasonable estimate. With 50, you might be able to do so after 10, but still, it doesn't buy you much.
8.2 will have a lot of work done on YOU again.
Roman.
-- Check the headers for your unsubscription address For additional commands, e-mail: suse-security-help@suse.com Security-related bug reports go to security@suse.de, not here
-- Stephen Hjelmstad Network Manager Tacoma Public Library 253-591-5662
** Reply to message from Roman Drahtmueller
8.2 will have a lot of work done on YOU again.
ooooh Roman, The magic words ..... <VBG> Sometime in the Fall or the Jan/Feb time slot for the more major releases ??? I hope there will be better firewire support, as happened w/ USB in 8.1 .. Hint, hint, nudge, nudge <G> -- j afterthought: dups
participants (19)
-
acidrein
-
Amit Goel
-
Bryan Smith
-
Claus Lund
-
Eduard Avetisyan
-
Graham Murray
-
intraRedes
-
jfweber@bellsouth.net
-
Klaus Kaempf
-
Lars Ellenberg
-
Manfred Rebentisch
-
Markus Gaugusch
-
Philipp Rusch
-
Richard Ibbotson
-
Rick Green
-
Roman Drahtmueller
-
Stan Glasoe
-
Stephen Hjelmstad
-
timo