On 12-Dec-00 Wade Chandler wrote:

I agree with Boris all of this is outrageous. It's that same type of attitude that a lot of people are taking on guns in the US. Think about it. [...] The only people with good hack tools are criminals??! It is something that can not be allowed to happen. People need to band together. Let us all come together here. Get the email address for the Council(somebody has to have it, the site what ever, I'll get it and send another email) And let's all put our two bits in. [...]

The email address for commentaries on the cybercrime draft convention is daj@coe.int Have fun, Boris ---

Wade Chandler Metro Information Services ISC Division: Winston Salem, NC http://www.metrotriad.com http://www.metrois.com wade.chandler@metrois.com

-----Original Message----- From: bolo@snafu.lupabuero.de [mailto:bolo@snafu.lupabuero.de]On Behalf Of Boris Lorenz Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2000 7:00 AM To: suse-security@suse.com Subject: [suse-security] European Council hacking-tools ban - update

Hi,

recently we discussed the plans of the European Council to ban hacking tools and to introduce an overall tightened surveillance of ISPs and their customers in cooperation with the members of the european union. [...]

Hi, first of all, please keep the gun discussion out here, because allthough it may be security relevant for some it defenitely is depending upon structures that are basically different for many nations. I do not care too much about the "hacker tools directive" as it will be hard to define that at court. A "hacker tool" is nothing much but a sequence standard utilities and the use makes it a hacker tool, so it must be prooven that I tried to "hack" someone for it to become a hacker tool (like a citchen knive that is only a weapon when I use it a s a weapon). I am more worried about the access to log files I had to provide, and a mechanism that I cannot realise that someone accesses these files. And that I had to provide (and pay for) the bandwidth to access them. That basically implies, that I had no longer control about my traffic and may not even monitor it and in the end, I was not allowed to have access to my logfiles myself! I do not think that collecting voices against that will do any good. To me they will have some kind of such regulation and the only chance to overcome it ist to *not* obey to such regulations. However I will participate in any petition against such regulation. mike

Please note: 1. The discussion about gun's states: "...In the US......." if your country or anybody else's does not begin with "US" then it shouldn't matter 2. It was only placed there for relevancy. Take away guns from everyone in the US by law only the unlawful(criminals) will have them not people who would use them in a good manner; people who could otherwise defend themselves against criminals. Take away crack and hack tools away from (Me: Programmer ;Somebody else: Sys Admin) by law and again only the unlawful will have them not people who would use them in a good manner; people who would otherwise be able to defend themselves with heightened knowledge of the arsenal opposing them and their own security. 3. I will not speak of guns here anymore...though you should refer to number one, and I thought criminals had guns everywhere not just the us, thought the latter is not what I was inferring in my last email. Please send me your email if you would like to help out. I would appreciate it. Thanks, Wade Chandler -----Original Message----- From: Thomas Michael Wanka [mailto:tm_wanka@earthling.net] Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2000 8:29 PM To: suse-security@suse.com Subject: RE: [suse-security] European Council hacking-tools ban - update Hi, first of all, please keep the gun discussion out here, because allthough it may be security relevant for some it defenitely is depending upon structures that are basically different for many nations. I do not care too much about the "hacker tools directive" as it will be hard to define that at court. A "hacker tool" is nothing much but a sequence standard utilities and the use makes it a hacker tool, so it must be prooven that I tried to "hack" someone for it to become a hacker tool (like a citchen knive that is only a weapon when I use it a s a weapon). I am more worried about the access to log files I had to provide, and a mechanism that I cannot realise that someone accesses these files. And that I had to provide (and pay for) the bandwidth to access them. That basically implies, that I had no longer control about my traffic and may not even monitor it and in the end, I was not allowed to have access to my logfiles myself! I do not think that collecting voices against that will do any good. To me they will have some kind of such regulation and the only chance to overcome it ist to *not* obey to such regulations. However I will participate in any petition against such regulation. mike --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: suse-security-unsubscribe@suse.com For additional commands, e-mail: suse-security-help@suse.com