suse-security-unsubscribe-gregf=bigtimegeeks.com@suse.com
On Mon, 15 Dec 2003 16:50:16 -0500, Greg Fitzgerald
suse-security-unsubscribe-gregf=bigtimegeeks.com@suse.com
... hehehehhehehehehe. someone *else* cant read the directions :) -- << http://michaeljtobler.homelinux.com/ >> In English, every word can be verbed. Would that it were so in our programming languages.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Am Montag, 15. Dezember 2003 22:50 schrieb Greg Fitzgerald:
suse-security-unsubscribe-gregf=bigtimegeeks.com@suse.com
Aaarrgghhh! -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.2-rc1-SuSE (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE/3i2jCaew2gjYEyURAovWAKCGF2ErKQSfJPB9dKqcC9r2wdJSOQCfUs0c K4jp6u6N6mrrnYrC+2+znxw= =U4oo -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
suse-security-unsubscribe-gregf=bigtimegeeks.com@suse.com Your close. You need to send it to this address, NOT put it in the body of the message. Ken
On Mon, 15 Dec 2003 17:29:05 -0500, "Ken Schneider"
Your close. You need to send it to this address, NOT put it in the body of the message.
... maybe they were hoping one of *US* would do it for them :) -- << http://michaeljtobler.homelinux.com/ >> A baby is God's opinion that the world should go on. - Carl Sandburg
On Mon, Dec 15, 2003 at 04:50:16PM -0500, Greg Fitzgerald wrote:
suse-security-unsubscribe-gregf=bigtimegeeks.com@suse.com
-- Check the headers for your unsubscription address For additional commands, e-mail: suse-security-help@suse.com Security-related bug reports go to security@suse.de, not here
Could the list owner *please* change the footer to something more user friendly? Proposal: ------ suse-security -- for security related discussions for help and unsubscribing: mail to suse-security-help@suse.com Security-related bug reports go to security@suse.de, not here ------ Never EVER refer to the headers of a message. It's a pure and simple fact that users can't (or won't) read them. And rightfully so, because headers aren't meant to be read by users. -- Erik Hensema (erik@hensema.net)
Hello, Erik Hensema wrote:
Never EVER refer to the headers of a message. It's a pure and simple fact that users can't (or won't) read them.
if so, WTF are they doing here? It's a security mailing list and if a subscriber cannot or won't read a mail header, how do you think that person will secure a box? IMHO they got to learn how to use the tools they are playing with.
And rightfully so, because headers aren't meant to be read by users.
s/user/lamer/g GTi
On Tue, Dec 16, 2003 at 10:44:11AM +0100, Martin Peikert wrote:
Hello,
Erik Hensema wrote:
Never EVER refer to the headers of a message. It's a pure and simple fact that users can't (or won't) read them.
if so, WTF are they doing here? It's a security mailing list and if a subscriber cannot or won't read a mail header, how do you think that person will secure a box? IMHO they got to learn how to use the tools they are playing with.
Maybe they came to the conclusion that they indeed were not fit to secure a box, and wanted to unsubscribe... Anyway, I don't like that arrogant attitude of yoursi (and others on the list, I am by no means targetting specifically you). You once were a beginner too. Everybody was. Everybody here has made the same stupid mistakes as the other (possible me a little more than the others). Please give beginners the opportunity to actually learn something, instead of being rude to them. Phrases like 'go read the man page' won't help, and 'go read the headers of the mail' won't help either. It's something I'd expect from a Debian mailing list, not from a SuSE list.
And rightfully so, because headers aren't meant to be read by users.
s/user/lamer/g
Headers are for mailservers, mailclients and admins only. Not for users. Really. Let me tell you (/me looks in the general direction of the list) a story about mail headers. I am the secratary of the Spamvrij.nl Foundation [1], a Dutch anti-spam organisation. We encourage people to forward all Dutch-language spam they receive to us. On our site we've got a long explanation on how to reveal the headers of a mail message to the user, yet we still receive quite high a percentage of submissions without the headers of the spam. Now this list expects the users to read the headers without any help. I am not at all suprised that that doesn't work. The sollution is very simple: simply point them to the help message. People who do know how to read headers will do so anyway, so mentioning headers in the mailinglist footer only confuses beginners. [1] http://www.spamvrij.nl/en/ -- Erik Hensema (erik@hensema.net)
Hello, Erik Hensema wrote:
On Tue, Dec 16, 2003 at 10:44:11AM +0100, Martin Peikert wrote:
Erik Hensema wrote:
Never EVER refer to the headers of a message. It's a pure and simple fact that users can't (or won't) read them.
if so, WTF are they doing here? It's a security mailing list and if a subscriber cannot or won't read a mail header, how do you think that person will secure a box? IMHO they got to learn how to use the tools they are playing with.
Maybe they came to the conclusion that they indeed were not fit to secure a box, and wanted to unsubscribe...
ok, one thing I didn't think of. Right. But those would better go on reading that list...
Anyway, I don't like that arrogant attitude of yoursi (and others on the list, I am by no means targetting specifically you). You once were a beginner too. Everybody was. Everybody here has made the same stupid mistakes as the other (possible me a little more than the others).
I don't think it's arrogant to point to a mail header. None of those "unsubscribers" asked how to read a mail header. Yes, I agree, I was a beginner, too. But I tried to learn something - what I cannot see here if people are not willing to read a mail header.
Please give beginners the opportunity to actually learn something, instead of being rude to them. Phrases like 'go read the man page' won't help, and 'go read the headers of the mail' won't help either.
If they'd like to learn something, they can ask - _after_ reading a man page and asking their favorite search engine. If it's obvious that they didn't read the man page (no matter why), such a "phrase" won't help immediately, but maybe some of them they learn to do their homework by themselfes and *start to think*. Therefore I don't think that telling such phrases is rude, it's really rude what some of them do - asking questions that are already answered in a man page or in an archive of a mailing list or news group.
It's something I'd expect from a Debian mailing list, not from a SuSE list.
Could you explain why you'd expect that in debian lists but not in SuSE's? (Maybe PM, because it's really off-topic.)
And rightfully so, because headers aren't meant to be read by users.
s/user/lamer/g
Headers are for mailservers, mailclients and admins only. Not for users. Really.
Since most of the threads are security related, I assume that most of
the people here are admins. And not only users. But maybe I'm wrong...
Anyway, during the subscription process most of us received a mail (with
subject: WELCOME to suse-security@suse.com) containing:
---8<---
Please save this message so that you know the address you are
subscribed under, in case you later want to unsubscribe or change your
subscription address.
To unsubscribe, send a message to:
If it's really that big a deal that we are going to write 12 emails everytime someone goofs and tries to get off the mailing list I suggest suse just put up an unsubscribe page where people can just put in their email address and it unsubscribes them. Sure others could unsubscribe you but......not bloody likely. -Paul Shepperd Swain Online Ardmore PA, USA -----Original Message----- From: Martin Peikert [mailto:list@nolog.org] Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2003 6:28 AM To: suse-security@suse.com Subject: Re: [suse-security] suse-security-unsubscribe-gregf=bigtimegeeks.com@suse.com Hello, Erik Hensema wrote:
On Tue, Dec 16, 2003 at 10:44:11AM +0100, Martin Peikert wrote:
Erik Hensema wrote:
Never EVER refer to the headers of a message. It's a pure and simple fact that users can't (or won't) read them.
if so, WTF are they doing here? It's a security mailing list and if a subscriber cannot or won't read a mail header, how do you think that person will secure a box? IMHO they got to learn how to use the tools they are playing with.
Maybe they came to the conclusion that they indeed were not fit to secure a box, and wanted to unsubscribe...
ok, one thing I didn't think of. Right. But those would better go on reading that list...
Anyway, I don't like that arrogant attitude of yoursi (and others on the list, I am by no means targetting specifically you). You once were a beginner too. Everybody was. Everybody here has made the same stupid mistakes as the other (possible me a little more than the others).
I don't think it's arrogant to point to a mail header. None of those "unsubscribers" asked how to read a mail header. Yes, I agree, I was a beginner, too. But I tried to learn something - what I cannot see here if people are not willing to read a mail header.
Please give beginners the opportunity to actually learn something, instead of being rude to them. Phrases like 'go read the man page' won't help, and 'go read the headers of the mail' won't help either.
If they'd like to learn something, they can ask - _after_ reading a man page and asking their favorite search engine. If it's obvious that they didn't read the man page (no matter why), such a "phrase" won't help immediately, but maybe some of them they learn to do their homework by themselfes and *start to think*. Therefore I don't think that telling such phrases is rude, it's really rude what some of them do - asking questions that are already answered in a man page or in an archive of a mailing list or news group.
It's something I'd expect from a Debian mailing list, not from a SuSE list.
Could you explain why you'd expect that in debian lists but not in SuSE's? (Maybe PM, because it's really off-topic.)
And rightfully so, because headers aren't meant to be read by users.
s/user/lamer/g
Headers are for mailservers, mailclients and admins only. Not for users. Really.
Since most of the threads are security related, I assume that most of
the people here are admins. And not only users. But maybe I'm wrong...
Anyway, during the subscription process most of us received a mail (with
subject: WELCOME to suse-security@suse.com) containing:
---8<---
Please save this message so that you know the address you are
subscribed under, in case you later want to unsubscribe or change your
subscription address.
To unsubscribe, send a message to:
On 16:19 12/16/03 "Paul Shepperd"
email address and it unsubscribes them. Sure others could unsubscribe you but......not bloody likely.
Hmm, so anyone can unsubscribe the newbies... and hmm... <clickety click> ... <tap tap> ;)
email address and it unsubscribes them. Sure others could unsubscribe you but......not bloody likely.
Hmm, so anyone can unsubscribe the newbies... and hmm...
<clickety click> ... <tap tap>
Too bad I don't have more time for my hobbies... :-) R.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Paul Shepperd wrote: | If it's really that big a deal that we are going to write 12 emails | everytime someone goofs and tries to get off the mailing list I suggest suse | just put up an unsubscribe page where people can just put in their email | address and it unsubscribes them. Sure others could unsubscribe you | but......not bloody likely. | | | -Paul Shepperd | Swain Online | Ardmore PA, USA Actually, I received an "Unsubscription confirmation" email a few days ago that (thankfully) included the headers from the original message to SuSE; it seems that philippe.jourde@isima.fr attempted to unsubscribe me from this list on Thu, 11 Dec 2003 15:53:02 (+0100). I have sent him two emails four days apart asking why but have not yet received a response... I wouldn't mind a web-unsubscribe form as long as it still needed to confirm the unsubscription. J. Theriault administrator@maginetworks.com -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (MingW32) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQE/30IY0lOMuR0OVK0RAq1SAKCZD/AbNc5EB6KTLjwTagXv9blTZQCfSS2l uGpgF75okdv1qsF25p4WwIA= =HclF -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
Actually,
I received an "Unsubscription confirmation" email a few days ago that (thankfully) included the headers from the original message to SuSE; it seems that philippe.jourde@isima.fr attempted to unsubscribe me from this list on Thu, 11 Dec 2003 15:53:02 (+0100). I have sent him two emails four days apart asking why but have not yet received a response... I wouldn't mind a web-unsubscribe form as long as it still needed to confirm the unsubscription.
Understood. I'll put that on the list of things that would be nice to have. Unfortunately, since CKM is gone, we're a little tight on resources to handle this right now. Roman.
That's something that I was forgetting, EZMLM can do confirmation emails very easily... I am also a user of Mandrake-not for servers- (GASP, AHHHHH, GASP) and this is the way they do it with a webform. So who do we try to (attempt) to convince to do this? P.S. The fact that we are discussing subscription, spam and things of this nature must mean SUSE is pretty secure, keep up the good work folks, I know I and a lot of people appreciate it. :) Paul Shepperd Swain Online -----Original Message----- From: J. Theriault [mailto:administrator@maginetworks.com] Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2003 12:34 PM To: Paul Shepperd Cc: suse-security@suse.com Subject: Re: [suse-security] suse-security-unsubscribe-gregf=bigtimegeeks.com@suse.com -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Paul Shepperd wrote: | If it's really that big a deal that we are going to write 12 emails | everytime someone goofs and tries to get off the mailing list I suggest suse | just put up an unsubscribe page where people can just put in their email | address and it unsubscribes them. Sure others could unsubscribe you | but......not bloody likely. | | | -Paul Shepperd | Swain Online | Ardmore PA, USA Actually, I received an "Unsubscription confirmation" email a few days ago that (thankfully) included the headers from the original message to SuSE; it seems that philippe.jourde@isima.fr attempted to unsubscribe me from this list on Thu, 11 Dec 2003 15:53:02 (+0100). I have sent him two emails four days apart asking why but have not yet received a response... I wouldn't mind a web-unsubscribe form as long as it still needed to confirm the unsubscription. J. Theriault administrator@maginetworks.com -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (MingW32) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQE/30IY0lOMuR0OVK0RAq1SAKCZD/AbNc5EB6KTLjwTagXv9blTZQCfSS2l uGpgF75okdv1qsF25p4WwIA= =HclF -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- Check the headers for your unsubscription address For additional commands, e-mail: suse-security-help@suse.com Security-related bug reports go to security@suse.de, not here
That's something that I was forgetting, EZMLM can do confirmation emails very easily... I am also a user of Mandrake-not for servers- (GASP, AHHHHH, GASP) and this is the way they do it with a webform.
So who do we try to (attempt) to convince to do this?
You know, I have a quite simple form for my convenience: I just click on an email address, and it is being removed from the list instantly. It's a nice BOFH feature that I once requested, and Mads Martin Joergensen has made it. We can't use a hack for this, not for that machine. It delivers many hundred thousand emails a day, and there is quite some security interest there. I can't spare the time for it atm.
P.S. The fact that we are discussing subscription, spam and things of this nature must mean SUSE is pretty secure, keep up the good work folks, I know I and a lot of people appreciate it. :)
Things are very busy these days, but we're improving and will be no1 soon again. Avoiding security problems in our own infrastructure by not introducing hacks is the minimum we can do.
Paul Shepperd Swain Online
Thanks, Roman.
participants (11)
-
Arjen Runsink -
Erik Hensema -
Greg Fitzgerald -
J. Theriault -
Ken Schneider -
Martin Peikert -
Mathias Homann -
mjt -
Paul Shepperd -
Philipp Schmiedeknecht -
Roman Drahtmueller