ATI Radeon HD 3650 fan noise on Linux

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Ilyes Gouta

27 Oct 2008 27 Oct '08

13:46

Hi, I've been interestingly following the progress of this driver for a long time now, looking for a full support of my laptop's features under Linux and radeonhd is the last piece of code needed to achieve that purpose. Alright, to my question: I've noticed that my laptop's fan starts spinning loudly as soon as the kernel boots and it doesn't stop at all until I shutdown the laptop. Now, I suspected for a long time that it was the CPU fan which is causing all this trouble but actually it's more likely that the Radeon HD which is the source. Under Windows Vista the fan(s) work as expected. Yesterday, I did a small experiment to verify this idea and actually I went ahead and uninstalled the Windows ATI Catalyst driver suite and rebooted the machine. Well, now I'm having the fan noise/spinning all the time under Windows too! :) I'm pretty sure that it's about GPU power management. Under Linux there isn't such a thing and I know that the my RadeonHD 3650's BIOS (M86, I used the RBE, http://bios.techpowerup.com/rbe/) contains different tables for the GPU and memory clocks which can be used to set the power consumption for the graphics card depending on the power management policy (or simply the user preferences). It's also possible the set the GPU Vcore to 0.9V and 1.1V. My question is: is it possible to add an option in radeonhd to allow the user to select the Vcore or the memory/GPU frequency? I'm not looking for a fully featured power management support, just this possibility and I'm pretty confident that it's possible to do so using some ATOMBIOS calls. (Am I right, here?) Any comments? Keep up the good work! And guys, any dates for the availability of the 2D/3D acceleration? :) Best regards, Ilyes Gouta. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: radeonhd+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: radeonhd+help@opensuse.org

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Nikos Chantziaras

27 Oct 27 Oct

14:01

Ilyes Gouta wrote:

...

Alright, to my question: I've noticed that my laptop's fan starts spinning loudly as soon as the kernel boots and it doesn't stop at all until I shutdown the laptop.

Welcome to the club. Actually, you should not be worried about the noise. You should be worried about the shorter lifetime of the card due to high temps. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: radeonhd+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: radeonhd+help@opensuse.org

Ilyes Gouta

14:09

Hi, Is there a way to retrieve the GPU temp? Is there any embedded sensor that can be read out?

...

You should be worried about the shorter lifetime of the card due to high temps. Yeah, but we're not using any 2D/3D functionality/acceleration under Linux, so the GPU shouldn't be that hot, is it?

Regards, Ilyes Gouta. On Mon, Oct 27, 2008 at 3:01 PM, Nikos Chantziaras wrote:

...

Ilyes Gouta wrote:

...
Alright, to my question: I've noticed that my laptop's fan starts spinning loudly as soon as the kernel boots and it doesn't stop at all until I shutdown the laptop.

Welcome to the club. Actually, you should not be worried about the noise.

...

-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: radeonhd+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: radeonhd+help@opensuse.org

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Nikos Chantziaras

14:18

Ilyes Gouta wrote:

...

Hi,

Is there a way to retrieve the GPU temp? Is there any embedded sensor that can be read out?

Nope. Maybe the Linux Catalyst drivers do this though.

...

...
You should be worried about the shorter lifetime of the card due to high temps. Yeah, but we're not using any 2D/3D functionality/acceleration under Linux, so the GPU shouldn't be that hot, is it?

It is hot. GPUs don't seem to have "idle calls" like CPUs. They run hot all the time unless you reduce the clocks (Catalyst does this). The fan would stay silent if it wasn't hot (it's BIOS controlled). -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: radeonhd+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: radeonhd+help@opensuse.org

Ilyes Gouta

14:37

Hi, So to preserve my Radeon HD 3650, I have two options: 1. Re-flash the radeon BIOS with a more adequate PowerPlay table, which would contain a much lower frequencies for the memory and GPU. 2. Wait for the proper PowerPlay support in radeonhd. Right? I think power management is MANDATORY for graphics chips meant to be embedded into laptops. Any way to put the pressure on AMD/ATI to open up the documentation for such a feature? Regards, Ilyes Gouta. On Mon, Oct 27, 2008 at 3:18 PM, Nikos Chantziaras wrote:

...

Ilyes Gouta wrote:

...
Hi,

Is there a way to retrieve the GPU temp? Is there any embedded sensor that can be read out?

Nope. Maybe the Linux Catalyst drivers do this though.

...
...
You should be worried about the shorter lifetime of the card due to high temps.

Yeah, but we're not using any 2D/3D functionality/acceleration under Linux, so the GPU shouldn't be that hot, is it?

It is hot. GPUs don't seem to have "idle calls" like CPUs. They run hot all the time unless you reduce the clocks (Catalyst does this). The fan would stay silent if it wasn't hot (it's BIOS controlled).

-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: radeonhd+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: radeonhd+help@opensuse.org

-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: radeonhd+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: radeonhd+help@opensuse.org

Nikos Chantziaras

14:48

Ilyes Gouta wrote:

...

Hi,

So to preserve my Radeon HD 3650, I have two options:

1. Re-flash the radeon BIOS with a more adequate PowerPlay table, which would contain a much lower frequencies for the memory and GPU.

Not possible. "PowerPlay" is inside Catalyst, not the BIOS.

...

2. Wait for the proper PowerPlay support in radeonhd.

Right?

That would be best :P Another option (normally) is to buy an aftermarket cooler, but that's not possible with a laptop.

...

I think power management is MANDATORY for graphics chips meant to be embedded into laptops. Any way to put the pressure on AMD/ATI to open up the documentation for such a feature?

There has been pressure to open up their PowerPlay code, but they claim that's a trade secret. :P -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: radeonhd+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: radeonhd+help@opensuse.org

Ilyes Gouta

15:18

Hi,

...

Not possible. "PowerPlay" is inside Catalyst, not the BIOS.

I think that PowerPlay is the marketing term behind a very simple concept: change the Vcore and the various frequencies (GPU and memory controller) depending on the pm policy and the graphic card's BIOS contains all the tables, predefined values for the != components, for every kind of usage. Try to have a look on RBE, the Radeon Bios Editor, I mentioned its URL in the previous e-mail.

...

...
2. Wait for the proper PowerPlay support in radeonhd.

Right?

That would be best :P Another option (normally) is to buy an aftermarket cooler, but that's not possible with a laptop.

...
I think power management is MANDATORY for graphics chips meant to be embedded into laptops. Any way to put the pressure on AMD/ATI to open up the documentation for such a feature?

There has been pressure to open up their PowerPlay code, but they claim that's a trade secret. :P

What a non-sense... Maybe they're claiming so because of an IP or a patent that they don't want to infringe on. It's plain stupid... PowerPlay is *so* required for laptops. Heat means less chip lifetime, and they have to give that up for the sake of the users. We don't want to have an Nvidia-like fiasco (on the long term) with ATI chips. Regards, Ilyes Gouta.

...

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Randall Nortman

15:30

On Mon, Oct 27, 2008 at 04:18:53PM +0100, Ilyes Gouta wrote: [...]

...

...
There has been pressure to open up their PowerPlay code, but they claim that's a trade secret. :P

What a non-sense... Maybe they're claiming so because of an IP or a patent that they don't want to infringe on. It's plain stupid... PowerPlay is *so* required for laptops. Heat means less chip lifetime, and they have to give that up for the sake of the users. We don't want to have an Nvidia-like fiasco (on the long term) with ATI chips.

Several companies have patents on power saving algorithms, and many more consider the algorithms to be trade secrets. It's the subtleties of exactly when to drop into power management, and when to come back, and possibly predicting demand so that you can ramp up the clock just in time. But that doesn't mean that it's really all that hard to do this. Look at the cpufreq code in the kernel and maybe some of those algorithms will be useful. Of course, the code to actually control the clock and vcore will be completely different. Are the hardware APIs to control this at least open, and it's just the algorithms that they want to protect? If they don't even want to tell you how to make the hardware drop the clock speed and vcore, then that's stupid. If they tell you that and want to protect the "intelligence" part of PowerPlay, so be it. -- Randall -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: radeonhd+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: radeonhd+help@opensuse.org

Bridgman, John

18:36

You can put pressure on us to do power management as a higher priority than 2d/3d acceleration for the newer chips, but I don't think that is the best way to go. Right now power management is next in line after 6xx/7xx 3D engine support. -----Original Message----- From: Ilyes Gouta [mailto:ilyes.gouta@gmail.com] Sent: Monday, October 27, 2008 10:37 AM To: Nikos Chantziaras Cc: radeonhd@opensuse.org Subject: Re: [radeonhd] Re: ATI Radeon HD 3650 fan noise on Linux Hi, So to preserve my Radeon HD 3650, I have two options: 1. Re-flash the radeon BIOS with a more adequate PowerPlay table, which would contain a much lower frequencies for the memory and GPU. 2. Wait for the proper PowerPlay support in radeonhd. Right? I think power management is MANDATORY for graphics chips meant to be embedded into laptops. Any way to put the pressure on AMD/ATI to open up the documentation for such a feature? Regards, Ilyes Gouta. On Mon, Oct 27, 2008 at 3:18 PM, Nikos Chantziaras wrote:

...

Ilyes Gouta wrote:

...
Hi,

Is there a way to retrieve the GPU temp? Is there any embedded sensor

...

...
that can be read out?

Nope. Maybe the Linux Catalyst drivers do this though.

...
...
You should be worried about the shorter lifetime of the card due to

...

...
...
high temps.

Yeah, but we're not using any 2D/3D functionality/acceleration under Linux, so the GPU shouldn't be that hot, is it?

It is hot. GPUs don't seem to have "idle calls" like CPUs. They run hot all the time unless you reduce the clocks (Catalyst does this). The fan would stay silent if it wasn't hot (it's BIOS controlled).

-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: radeonhd+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: radeonhd+help@opensuse.org

-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: radeonhd+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: radeonhd+help@opensuse.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: radeonhd+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: radeonhd+help@opensuse.org

Norbert Toth

18:57

Hello John, I fully agree with you. Is there any approximate ETA for the 6xx 2d/3d acceleration? Thanks. - Norbert On Po, 2008-10-27 at 14:36 -0400, Bridgman, John wrote:

...

You can put pressure on us to do power management as a higher priority than 2d/3d acceleration for the newer chips, but I don't think that is the best way to go. Right now power management is next in line after 6xx/7xx 3D engine support.

-----Original Message----- From: Ilyes Gouta [mailto:ilyes.gouta@gmail.com] Sent: Monday, October 27, 2008 10:37 AM To: Nikos Chantziaras Cc: radeonhd@opensuse.org Subject: Re: [radeonhd] Re: ATI Radeon HD 3650 fan noise on Linux

Hi,

So to preserve my Radeon HD 3650, I have two options:

1. Re-flash the radeon BIOS with a more adequate PowerPlay table, which would contain a much lower frequencies for the memory and GPU. 2. Wait for the proper PowerPlay support in radeonhd.

Right?

I think power management is MANDATORY for graphics chips meant to be embedded into laptops. Any way to put the pressure on AMD/ATI to open up the documentation for such a feature?

Regards, Ilyes Gouta.

On Mon, Oct 27, 2008 at 3:18 PM, Nikos Chantziaras wrote:

...
Ilyes Gouta wrote:

...
Hi,

Is there a way to retrieve the GPU temp? Is there any embedded sensor

...
...
that can be read out?

Nope. Maybe the Linux Catalyst drivers do this though.

...
...
You should be worried about the shorter lifetime of the card due to

...
...
...
high temps.

Yeah, but we're not using any 2D/3D functionality/acceleration under Linux, so the GPU shouldn't be that hot, is it?

It is hot. GPUs don't seem to have "idle calls" like CPUs. They run hot all the time unless you reduce the clocks (Catalyst does this). The fan would stay silent if it wasn't hot (it's BIOS controlled).

-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: radeonhd+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: radeonhd+help@opensuse.org

-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: radeonhd+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: radeonhd+help@opensuse.org

-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: radeonhd+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: radeonhd+help@opensuse.org

Bridgman, John

19:03

I have stopped estimating dates since we missed the last two estimates as we learned more about the new 3D engine. What I can say is that we have the 6xx and 7xx chips drawing things in house with our code (a demo program running over drm), that we have pretty much all of the required functions working, and now need to : (a) implement those functions in the 2d and 3d drivers, and (b) finish the IP review for just the information needed to make that code work I don't really want to even speculate re: dates but we're fairly close now. -----Original Message----- From: Norbert Toth [mailto:norbeet@gmail.com] Sent: Monday, October 27, 2008 2:57 PM To: Bridgman, John Cc: Ilyes Gouta; Nikos Chantziaras; radeonhd@opensuse.org Subject: RE: [radeonhd] Re: ATI Radeon HD 3650 fan noise on Linux Hello John, I fully agree with you. Is there any approximate ETA for the 6xx 2d/3d acceleration? Thanks. - Norbert On Po, 2008-10-27 at 14:36 -0400, Bridgman, John wrote:

...

You can put pressure on us to do power management as a higher priority

...

than 2d/3d acceleration for the newer chips, but I don't think that is

...

the best way to go. Right now power management is next in line after 6xx/7xx 3D engine support.

-----Original Message----- From: Ilyes Gouta [mailto:ilyes.gouta@gmail.com] Sent: Monday, October 27, 2008 10:37 AM To: Nikos Chantziaras Cc: radeonhd@opensuse.org Subject: Re: [radeonhd] Re: ATI Radeon HD 3650 fan noise on Linux

Hi,

So to preserve my Radeon HD 3650, I have two options:

1. Re-flash the radeon BIOS with a more adequate PowerPlay table, which would contain a much lower frequencies for the memory and GPU. 2. Wait for the proper PowerPlay support in radeonhd.

Right?

I think power management is MANDATORY for graphics chips meant to be embedded into laptops. Any way to put the pressure on AMD/ATI to open up the documentation for such a feature?

Regards, Ilyes Gouta.

On Mon, Oct 27, 2008 at 3:18 PM, Nikos Chantziaras wrote:

...
Ilyes Gouta wrote:

...
Hi,

Is there a way to retrieve the GPU temp? Is there any embedded sensor

...
...
that can be read out?

Nope. Maybe the Linux Catalyst drivers do this though.

...
...
You should be worried about the shorter lifetime of the card due to

...
...
...
high temps.

Yeah, but we're not using any 2D/3D functionality/acceleration under Linux, so the GPU shouldn't be that hot, is it?

It is hot. GPUs don't seem to have "idle calls" like CPUs. They run hot all the time unless you reduce the clocks (Catalyst does this). The fan would stay silent if it wasn't hot (it's BIOS controlled).

-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: radeonhd+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: radeonhd+help@opensuse.org

-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: radeonhd+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: radeonhd+help@opensuse.org

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Darin McBride

19:28

On Monday 27 October 2008 1:03:02 pm Bridgman, John wrote:

...

I have stopped estimating dates since we missed the last two estimates as we learned more about the new 3D engine.

What I can say is that we have the 6xx and 7xx chips drawing things in house with our code (a demo program running over drm), that we have pretty much all of the required functions working, and now need to :

(a) implement those functions in the 2d and 3d drivers, and

(b) finish the IP review for just the information needed to make that code work

I don't really want to even speculate re: dates

AKA "When it's done, dammit."

...

but we're fairly close now.

Hoo-ray! Looking forward to re-enabling composites with KDE4 on my RV670 :-) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: radeonhd+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: radeonhd+help@opensuse.org

Randall Nortman

21:38

And will I then finally have xvideo support on my RS780? Or is that another step after the basic 3d support is there? On Mon, Oct 27, 2008 at 03:03:02PM -0400, Bridgman, John wrote:

...

I have stopped estimating dates since we missed the last two estimates as we learned more about the new 3D engine.

What I can say is that we have the 6xx and 7xx chips drawing things in house with our code (a demo program running over drm), that we have pretty much all of the required functions working, and now need to :

(a) implement those functions in the 2d and 3d drivers, and

(b) finish the IP review for just the information needed to make that code work

I don't really want to even speculate re: dates but we're fairly close now. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: radeonhd+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: radeonhd+help@opensuse.org

Bridgman, John

21:45

I expect the sequence of available support will be EXA, then Xv, then 3D in that order. EXA and Xv might show up at the same time, depends how things go and what else is happening at the same time. The reason for the sequence is that EXA requires the smallest changes, then Xv, and 3D is the largest. It's not so much that "the 6xx/7xx specific changes for 3D are bigger than they are for 2D", just that updating the 3D driver for any new chip requires that more stuff be changed compared to 2D. -----Original Message----- From: Randall Nortman [mailto:rnradeonhd@wonderclown.net] Sent: Monday, October 27, 2008 5:38 PM To: radeonhd@opensuse.org Subject: Re: [radeonhd] Re: ATI Radeon HD 3650 fan noise on Linux And will I then finally have xvideo support on my RS780? Or is that another step after the basic 3d support is there? On Mon, Oct 27, 2008 at 03:03:02PM -0400, Bridgman, John wrote:

...

I have stopped estimating dates since we missed the last two estimates

...

as we learned more about the new 3D engine.

What I can say is that we have the 6xx and 7xx chips drawing things in

...

house with our code (a demo program running over drm), that we have pretty much all of the required functions working, and now need to :

(a) implement those functions in the 2d and 3d drivers, and

(b) finish the IP review for just the information needed to make that code work

I don't really want to even speculate re: dates but we're fairly close

...

now. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: radeonhd+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: radeonhd+help@opensuse.org

-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: radeonhd+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: radeonhd+help@opensuse.org

Ilyes Gouta

28 Oct 28 Oct

08:54

Hi John, I'm happy to see that (pm) it's a scheduled item in your plans! Very good, definitely very good! The sooner you guys deliver the goods to the community, the faster radeonhd (and ATI chips) will grow to become a fully capable and mature driver/product! :) Keep up the good work! Regards, Ilyes Gouta. On Mon, Oct 27, 2008 at 7:36 PM, Bridgman, John wrote:

...

You can put pressure on us to do power management as a higher priority than 2d/3d acceleration for the newer chips, but I don't think that is the best way to go. Right now power management is next in line after 6xx/7xx 3D engine support.

-----Original Message----- From: Ilyes Gouta [mailto:ilyes.gouta@gmail.com] Sent: Monday, October 27, 2008 10:37 AM To: Nikos Chantziaras Cc: radeonhd@opensuse.org Subject: Re: [radeonhd] Re: ATI Radeon HD 3650 fan noise on Linux

Hi,

So to preserve my Radeon HD 3650, I have two options:

1. Re-flash the radeon BIOS with a more adequate PowerPlay table, which would contain a much lower frequencies for the memory and GPU. 2. Wait for the proper PowerPlay support in radeonhd.

Right?

I think power management is MANDATORY for graphics chips meant to be embedded into laptops. Any way to put the pressure on AMD/ATI to open up the documentation for such a feature?

Regards, Ilyes Gouta.

On Mon, Oct 27, 2008 at 3:18 PM, Nikos Chantziaras wrote:

...
Ilyes Gouta wrote:

...
Hi,

Is there a way to retrieve the GPU temp? Is there any embedded sensor

...
...
that can be read out?

Nope. Maybe the Linux Catalyst drivers do this though.

...
...
You should be worried about the shorter lifetime of the card due to

...
...
...
high temps.

Yeah, but we're not using any 2D/3D functionality/acceleration under Linux, so the GPU shouldn't be that hot, is it?

It is hot. GPUs don't seem to have "idle calls" like CPUs. They run hot all the time unless you reduce the clocks (Catalyst does this). The fan would stay silent if it wasn't hot (it's BIOS controlled).

-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: radeonhd+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: radeonhd+help@opensuse.org

-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: radeonhd+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: radeonhd+help@opensuse.org

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participants (6)

Bridgman, John
Darin McBride
Ilyes Gouta
Nikos Chantziaras
Norbert Toth
Randall Nortman