2011/11/23 Markus Slopianka :

On Mittwoch 23 November 2011 19:10:46 Raymond Wooninck wrote:

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Unfortunately a bug report was created (bnc#731832)

Why unfortunately? Shipping the alpha versions in openSUSE-current (not Factory) is a bug. I reported the bug through the proper channel.

Markus, I believe your approach is somehow narrow... and I'm wondering which boot loader you use... and if it's a stable release. Furthermore, if you aren't a part of the solution, then you are a part of the problem! What you could do as a fine contributor is the following: * Take your own time, package and maintain a stable version of Chromium, or help Raymond doing so. I know it's a bad ass package to maintain because I did submitted a patch in the past to fix an issue I found on bugzilla (icons not being properly shown on the task bar). Really take the challenge... Now if you can't take the challenge or help with the solution, we're not being too much productive are we? And maybe you should thank Raymond for the nice job he's doing because it's really added value to openSUSE that we have Chromium available in the distro and not in some obscure repository.

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So officially there are no alpha, beta or stable versions of Chromium Nonetheless Google releases three Chromium versions more or less simultaneously. That's because one is an alpha snapshot, one is the beta for the upcoming stable version, and one is the current stable version.

Claiming that Chromium development is completely disconnected from the release schedule of Google Chrome is just as disconnected from reality. New Chromium versions are released together with new Chrome versions. They are the same with the exception of a handful of Google features in Chrome. So when Google declares 17.x alpha, 16.x beta, and 15.x stable then that's also the same for Chromium.

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and it is up to each dsitribution to decide what they want to ship. For openSUSE 12.1 it is too late to change anything here as that this would mean that existing users might experience loss-of-data as that their profiles are not compatible with lower versions of Chromium.

So you are saying that removing Chromium from openSUSE would reduce the risks of loosing data? One question for you, have you ever readed a free software friendly license? You know what I'm talking right ? If you want security, you open your pocket and you buy SLES/SLED, that's why you pay for... This is community linux, or used to be...

Not exactly true. For 12.1 you could continue to ship 17.x versions until 18.0 reaches stable status.

The real question is: What are Current and Factory for? My impression is that Factory is for reasonably tested software and Current for fully tested software. Your weekly snapshots are just that: Snapshots. They are untested and not even from a stabilization branch.

That said, you can obviously package what you want. If you prefer untested alpha snapshots then so be it. However, untested alpha snapshots do neither belong in openSUSE-current, nor Factory. Your Chromium snapshots would need to be treated like Firefox betas are treated, ie. put in a separate repository.

Markus, I think what you meant was: "Raymond, thanks for you contribution! I don't enjoy it, but many others around love it" ;)

Markus -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

-- Nelson Marques /* http://www.marques.so   nmo.marques@gmail.com */ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

Am 24.11.2011 13:32, schrieb Markus Slopianka:

On Donnerstag 24 November 2011 08:30:29 Ismail Dönmez wrote:

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1) Keep things the way they are. Chromium will be updated regularly to the latest available version. No change from the current procedure

This is the best option imho, web is moving too fast anyway.

So no Firefox stable builds then and instead Minefield, right?

I guess Aurora would be what matches the Chromium build at hand. I'm not a Chromium user so cannot really comment on its stability but I argue against "web is moving too fast". If at all it's moving too fast because Chrome and Chromium is the reason for it but I doubt it anyway. Now that two important browsers have very fast release cycles the web is not held back anymore which was the reason for the browser vendors but still I think there is no technical reason to have the latest bleeding edge chromium code drop. Speaking for Firefox, Firefox Beta, Aurora and Nightly I made the experience that it's a good thing to have these stages as there are issues found in every stage until it hits a final release. I do not think that Chromium is far better here. In my personal view I wouldn't use the very latest for a release. But in the end it's something the maintainers have to decide. If the users decide that it's not working for them they will stop using it. (Problem might be that maintainers wouldn't easily find out about it.) Wolfgang -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

2011/11/24 Sankar P :

Out-of-the-box (probably bikesheddy) suggestion. Why should we build chrome by ourselves at all ? We do not have any patches made from SUSE for chromium which will be in upstream only in future releases (say like the Kernel). We can just get the latest Chrome for openSUSE from www.google.com/chrome

Why should you distribute Chrome from Google when it was broken during the whole 11.4 cycle from an "out of the box" perspective? Chromium provided by Raymond wasn't. A fun example of this was the missing libpng12 requires, yes the very same lib someone tried to push out of Factory the other day.

Chrome project already gives 32-bit and 64-bit dev and beta builds for openSUSE (and fedora). We can just work with those chrome packagers instead of building it ourselves. I see no benefit in building chrome by ourselves. If we are paranoid about chrome recording few things that we do, we should ideally use a different browser, like Firefox

I hope I never see you in the future trying to promote people to get enrolled with openSUSE or crying about the lack of it... Because such attitudes just make contributors run away... Raymond (and many others) work and efforts should be rewarded, and situations like the one you suggest doesn't sound like a reward. I've been noticing openSUSE is closing all the channels for free contributors... If you SUSE/Novell/Attachmate or whoever is pushing the hidden agenda's want to block contributors, then just state what you are trying to accomplish, because most of what I ear is play bullshit and everyone is loosing credibility (one example: the current board and the Foundation to be done during this year). NM

Sankar

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On 11/23/2011 at 11:40 PM, in message <4430597.lteV4vvxfT@hqvmt4xx20.eur.cchbc.com>, Raymond Wooninck wrote: With openSUSE 12.1 the Chromium browser became part of the openSUSE release, after spending quite some time in the openSUSE:<release>:Contrib repositories.

Unfortunately a bug report was created (bnc#731832), where an user complains

that openSUSE is releasing an alpha version of the Chromium browser and that

this should be a stable version.  It seems that the reporter bases his statement on the fact how Ubuntu, Archlinux and Debian are handling the Chromium browser. This seems to be complete based on the Chrome browser.

I did some digging of my own and I found the following webpage that explains

the release management behind Chrome and Chromium (http://ftagada.wordpress.com/2011/01/19/chromium-release-management- explained/)

Half way the page is the following indicated:  "I (the author, an Ubuntu packager) said in the introduction that there is no such thing upstream. They have enough in their plate with just Chrome. So it is up to each downstream distribution to decide what is best for its users."

So officially there are no alpha, beta or stable versions of Chromium and it

is up to each dsitribution to decide what they want to ship. For openSUSE 12.1 it is too late to change anything here as that this would mean that existing

users might experience loss-of-data as that their profiles are not compatible with lower versions of Chromium. However for the upcoming 12.2 release there

is still time to decide which way openSUSE wants to go. At this moment I see

three possibilities:

1)    Keep things the way they are. Chromium will be updated regularly to the latest available version. No change from the current procedure

2)    openSUSE will use the Chrome release management and the Chromium package will be frozen until the Stable version has reached the current version of Chromium. Then this is the package that will be maintained from that moment onwards.

3) We have a mixture of the above. In the Chromium devel-project (network:chromium), two packages are maintained. The first package chromium will follow the stable releases and a second package chromium-unstable will follow the current procedure and gets a weekly update. However the chromium- unstable package will never be submitted to Factory.

Before making m choice in what to provide, I would like to have your feedback on how to continue this. Honestly speaking I do not like option 3 as that this would mean double the work for me, but it is a possibility.

Thanks

Regards

Raymond (tittiatcoke)

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2011/11/24 Sankar P :

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Chrome project already gives 32-bit and 64-bit dev and beta builds for openSUSE (and fedora). We can just work with those chrome packagers instead of building it ourselves. I see no benefit in building chrome by ourselves. If we are paranoid about chrome recording few things that we do, we should ideally use a different browser, like Firefox

I hope I never see you in the future trying to promote people to get enrolled with openSUSE or crying about the lack of it... Because such attitudes just make contributors run away... Raymond (and many others) work and efforts should be rewarded, and situations like the one you suggest doesn't sound like a reward.

I've been noticing openSUSE is closing all the channels for free contributors... If you SUSE/Novell/Attachmate or whoever is pushing the hidden agenda's want to block contributors, then just state what you are trying to accomplish, because most of what I ear is play bullshit and everyone is loosing credibility (one example: the current board and the Foundation to be done during this year).

Take a deep breath :-)

Right now,

-> openSUSE community is spending effort to give chromium for openSUSE

"openSUSE community" == Raymond (??) Is this correct? I mean, what's raymond stance towards this? This seems a huge falacy. Might work from the 'engineering' point of view, but from a motivational perspective, I have some doubts.

-> Chrome community is spending effort to give Chrome for openSUSE

That's maybe a project management requirement from Chrome (to give a offer for most popular Linux platforms)... But, they never really cared/fixed the libpng12 issue, which somehow challenges your statement. If they were really spending efforts into openSUSE, they would have a Requires on the rpm for libpng12. Furthermore, do you believe it's fair to compare a product from Google (which has a whole team and project management behind) with a volunteer contribution like Raymond's? I think we're running into way too much falacies.

-> There are no patches added by openSUSE to customize chromium -> Chrome development is going on at a rapid pace

Sure there's no patches, but there's probably hundreds of hours of work on it from contributors. Let's just trash them because we find out that Chrome is a better option ?

So, instead of working on two different places to make Chrome available for *openSUSE* users, we should focus on just one place so that it will be more efficient. Much like, two people digging a water-well in one place instead of two different places.

Chrome != Chromium ? Now why should you or anyone else impose to a volunteer contributor what or what they should or shouldn't do with their contributions? Now we have everyone enforcing project management decisions ? Are we community Linux or corporate linux? Please enlighten me... You are a part of the Marketing team, so you know the answers better than I do.

Also, I do not intend to block Raymond. I am merely recommending him to work with the Chrome community who is already giving RPMs for openSUSE. It is just a proposal and he can happily reject it as he wish.

You use Chrome or Chromium? Sounds fishy... to me it looks like you are trying to get in openSUSE the stuff you use in disfavor of a competitor product that you don't use but that others might use... Are the Chrome/Chromium Licenses the same? Which one should we favor? Sankar, you are a member of the Marketing Team, I expect you or any other marketing contributor to be aware of the motivational factors and their impact in present or future volunteer contributor... Marketing isn't about posting news or making buzzes throught the world... it goes far beyond it, it would be interesting that people actually consider what they are supposed to consider and not only follow a narrow perspective and claim they are marketeers... How would I know that ? PS: we're just discussing hopefully in a constructive way and confronting ideas, this is not a personal attack, I hope that is clear.

I understand that you may be unhappy with the board/foundation related happenings in openSUSE, but trust me, my mail has nothing related to any of it. Read through my previous mails once again with an clear mindset and see if you find anything other than trying to get best Chrome experience on openSUSE.

This is not related to you, it meant in a general perspective... People want to do a lot of stuff but in the end nothing happens (happened to me also with GNOME:Ayatana).

Have Fun :-)

Sankar

P.S: I have been using Chrome from Google during 11.4 and even now on my 12.1 box without any issues. So I am not really sure what the problem you referred to was. Even if there was a problem, I am sure the chromium community will be happy to fix it, for the benefit of the openSUSE users.

-- Nelson Marques /* http://www.marques.so   nmo.marques@gmail.com */ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

Sankar P wrote:

Out-of-the-box (probably bikesheddy) suggestion. Why should we build chrome by ourselves at all ? We do not have any patches made from SUSE for chromium which will be in upstream only in future releases (say like the Kernel). We can just get the latest Chrome for openSUSE from www.google.com/chrome

Are you saying we should encourage users to install [proprietary] binary rpms from random sites on the Internet? Or are you saying we should encourage Google to maintain their openSUSE packages in Factory/update repos ie make them easily available to users and conform to our packaging policies? cu Ludwig -- (o_ Ludwig Nussel //\ V_/_ http://www.suse.de/ SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Jeff Hawn, Jennifer Guild, Felix Imendörffer, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

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On 11/25/2011 at 02:08 PM, in message <4ECF53F4.8020306@suse.de>, Ludwig Nussel wrote: Sankar P wrote: Out-of-the-box (probably bikesheddy) suggestion. Why should we build chrome by ourselves at all ? We do not have any patches made from SUSE for chromium which will be in upstream only in future releases (say like the Kernel). We can just get the latest Chrome for openSUSE from www.google.com/chrome

Are you saying we should encourage users to install [proprietary] binary rpms from random sites on the Internet? Or are you saying we should encourage Google to maintain their openSUSE packages in Factory/update repos ie make them easily available to users and conform to our packaging policies?

We definitely can ask Google to maintain their openSUSE specific rpm build in OBS. However I doubt if they will be ready to conform to our

policies etc. My suggestion was the former.

I agree that some may feel paranoid about installing binary rpm from a third party site. For most people, Google has a higher level of trust

random site. Also, people already install VLC player from 3rd

On Friday 25 November 2011 01:58:18 Sankar P wrote: packaging than some party site. I

personally don't feel paranoid about installing chrome from Google's site. So I gave that suggestion. I agree that it may not be suitable for all.

For example, Google's google talk voice RPM that chromium lets you install both silently registered their repository (to keep it up to date) and installed a cronjob to re-register their repository if you remove it, when I looked at its scripts last year. That deviates too far from acceptable behaviour, in my opinion. Will -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

On Donnerstag 24 November 2011 10:25:49 Pavol Rusnak wrote:

1) Chromium is developed really quickly and with the current type of release engineering they have I'm sure lots of security fixes are not being backported to the "stable" Chromium releases

Same could be said about Firefox.

2) who wants "rocksolid" releases could use Chrome from Google's repo

Same could be said about Firefox. OK then: Abandon stable, tested releases for openSUSE. Bleeding edge for everything! -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

On Donnerstag 24 November 2011 13:57:03 Pavol Rusnak wrote:

On 11/24/2011 01:35 PM, Markus Slopianka wrote:

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OK then: Abandon stable, tested releases for openSUSE. Bleeding edge for everything!

Please, try to be constructive.

I am. Just look at https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=731832#c6 That is more constructive than most other comments here.... You seem to forget what the actual topic at hand is: Are untested snapshots of an alpha- quality development branch permitted in openSUSE's stable repo and via the official Updates channel? As I understand openSUSE's release policy the clear answer is no. So far I've seen no argument that refutes my analysis of the situation. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

On Donnerstag 24 November 2011 14:27:02 Pavol Rusnak wrote:

My take is that chromium 15.x.x.x is no more stable than chromium 17.x.x.x,

My experience differs and considering that the alpha snapshots are completely untested, the situation can change from one day to another.

which is completely different situation than Firefox stable vs Minefield. That's where your comparison lacks sense.

No, it's not. The situation is and was: *Untested snapshots* of any software. It's not like KDE Network Management which during Factory development in previous releases got a single git snapshot and that was then stabilized for release. (Whereas untested snapshots of that are put in KDE:/Unstable) Here the situation is that on a weekly basis untested snapshots are delivered as regular updates for openSUSE.

If there are any issues with the latest release we should fix them and send to Google,

because I think if we had fixes against 15.x Google would not just care. Have you any evidence to back your thought up? Why would Google not want to properly

The Chromium package carries a large number of additional SUSE patches. I don't see them being sent to Google... maintain its current stable release? If the beta branch (currently 16.x) was just mere days away from becoming the stable release, yes, I'd agree with you. That said, if openSUSE at least moved to ship the beta versions, one could at least argue that it is already a stabilization branch and at least somewhat tested. My main argument was and is openSUSE's release process and that it does not permit untested snapshots of any software to be included. So far nobody refuted that argument -- neither here nor in the bug report. I'm open to actual arguments and how and why the openSUSE's release process would actually prefer untested snapshots over release versions. So far I've only read 'You are mean to Raymond', 'I like Chromium', and 'The web moves fast'. So far no argument at all about openSUSE's release process policy. Markus -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org