On 07/12/12 12:52, Rajko wrote:

On Thu, 6 Dec 2012 12:09:13 -0500 Greg Freemyer wrote:

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The opensuse lists come in 2 flavors: Closed lists that only allow subscriber postings and open lists which allow non-subscriber postings. Without exact list names this advice is asking for even more work - to guess what lists are open and what closed.

Henne, can we have list of open and closed mail lists?

I am opposed, in the strongest of terms, to cross-posting and having open lists for openSUSE. Both suggestions are sheer nonsense. BC -- Using openSUSE 12.2 x86_64 KDE 4.9.4 & kernel 3.6.9-1 on a system with- AMD FX 8-core 3.6/4.2GHz processor 16GB PC14900/1866MHz Quad Channel Corsair "Vengeance" RAM Gigabyte AMD3+ m/board; Gigabyte nVidia GTX550Ti 1GB DDR5 GPU -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

Greg Freemyer wrote:

Basil Chupin wrote:

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On 07/12/12 12:52, Rajko wrote:

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On Thu, 6 Dec 2012 12:09:13 -0500 Greg Freemyer wrote:

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The opensuse lists come in 2 flavors: Closed lists that only allow subscriber postings and open lists which allow non-subscriber postings. Without exact list names this advice is asking for even more work - to guess what lists are open and what closed.

Henne, can we have list of open and closed mail lists?

I am opposed, in the strongest of terms, to cross-posting and having open lists for openSUSE.

Both suggestions are sheer nonsense.

BC

Basil,

Re: open lists

I don't know the exact list, but many specialized opensuse lists are already open (for years now). I think this very list (-project) is open. Another open list is -packaging. Having -packaging open means any dev can post a question on -packaging without first having to subscribe.

I don't know if many people appreciate that there are numerous open opensuse lists available to support them.

Personally, I always assume that lists (any and all) are closed - also, if I am not subscribed, I have to actively go and poll for answers. Not every poster use reply-all. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (-1.4°C) http://www.dns24.ch/ - free DNS hosting, made in Switzerland. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

On 07.12.2012 02:52, Rajko wrote:

On Thu, 6 Dec 2012 12:09:13 -0500 Greg Freemyer wrote:

...

The opensuse lists come in 2 flavors: Closed lists that only allow subscriber postings and open lists which allow non-subscriber postings.

Without exact list names this advice is asking for even more work - to guess what lists are open and what closed.

Henne, can we have list of open and closed mail lists?

Only the user to user support lists are closed. So opensuse and opensuse-$LANG. Everything else is open. Henne -- Henne Vogelsang http://www.opensuse.org Everybody has a plan, until they get hit. - Mike Tyson -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

Hey, On 07.12.2012 15:25, Carlos E. R. wrote:

On 2012-12-07 15:01, Henne Vogelsang wrote:

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On 07.12.2012 02:52, Rajko wrote:

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Henne, can we have list of open and closed mail lists?

Only the user to user support lists are closed. So opensuse and opensuse-$LANG. Everything else is open.

Maybe that's why I see spam in opensuse-translation-es@

Sure, open means all SPAM that slips through the filter goes to the list. Henne -- Henne Vogelsang http://www.opensuse.org Everybody has a plan, until they get hit. - Mike Tyson -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

* Rajko [12-07-12 19:38]:

On Fri, 07 Dec 2012 15:01:23 +0100 Henne Vogelsang wrote:

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Only the user to user support lists are closed. So opensuse and opensuse-$LANG. Everything else is open.

Thank you for prompt answer Henne.

Then we have to adjust cross posting section in netiquette to reflect this.

Ah, adjust cross posting? For what reason? So far I have seen one for cross-posting, one on the fence and several voices against, if memory serves. Open vs closed lists really are about the list attributes, not cross-posting. And LKML really has nothing to do with our openSUSE lists. -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA HOG # US1244711 http://wahoo.no-ip.org Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://linuxcounter.net -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

* Rajko [12-07-12 22:37]:

On Fri, 7 Dec 2012 20:27:55 -0500 Patrick Shanahan wrote:

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Open vs closed lists really are about the list attributes, not cross-posting. And LKML really has nothing to do with our openSUSE lists.

There is use case for cross posting as explained by Greg, to aggregate experts in few fields to work on one problem.

As only user help is subscriber only, it can be more productive to use cross posting then to keep two conversations on different lists and forward answers manually.

Only if *everyone* concerned "cross-posts". Which is currently *not* the habit or expectation.

What is subscription? Instruction to mail list server to send you emails from other interested in a certain topic.

What is mail list? List of people that want to discuss certain topic.

Having free cross posting, allows to have small lists that are aggregated without administration overhead and on as needed basis.

And duplicate mail to anyone participating in more than one of the "small" lists being cross-posted.

Example: You want to solve boot problem that seems to be kernel or graphics. You post to boot@opensuse.org, kernel@opensuse.org and graphics@opensuse.org, temporarily creating new mail list that will disappear when problem is solved, instead of having administratively created boot-kernel-graphics@opensuse.org and zillion other that will have 1 post per year.

I understand the process and the mess when trying to follow the spaghetti code replies that are different on each list and archived in different places.

In other words, you create basic groups that server knows about, and let users deal with particular problems.

Problems of many posts that can't find appropriate place is solved, as any experienced user can add another list where lives expert for the topic.

Experts will appreciate this as they will see fewer posts and most of the time posts related to their interest.

Experts will see *many* more posts, perhaps related. We still have a mess on the closed list, opensuse, with off-topic posts even after a dedicated off-topic list was committed.

Users will get the most relevant answers.

Not unless they subscribe to the cross-posted lists because anyone answering a post in the prescribed manner, non cross-posting, will only provide an answer in one of the several lists. I'm against. The *only* place I see cross-posting to be allowed is in notifications, ie: meetings concerning more than one group. -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA HOG # US1244711 http://wahoo.no-ip.org Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://linuxcounter.net -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

On Sat, Dec 8, 2012 at 7:55 AM, Carlos E. R. wrote:

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On Friday, 2012-12-07 at 18:37 -0600, Rajko wrote:

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On Fri, 07 Dec 2012 15:01:23 +0100 Henne Vogelsang <> wrote:

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Only the user to user support lists are closed. So opensuse and opensuse-$LANG. Everything else is open.

Thank you for prompt answer Henne.

Then we have to adjust cross posting section in netiquette to reflect this.

No, I strongly object.

The receiving side is not openly subscribed to. As the thread wanders from one list to other, being crosposted, or not, depending of the whim of who sends each email, it becomes very difficult to follow.

I argue for the specialist lists the current situation is worse. Just a day or two ago a thread on -packaging discussing ruby gems was started. 4 or 5 messages into it, one of the parties said it really should be on the -ruby list. It went silent on -packaging and I can only assume it is now taking place on -ruby which I don't subscribe to. My belief is that -ruby should have just been added to the cc: list and the thread continue to keep -packaging included. A simple intro sentence saying: === Adding -ruby in cc. Intro for -ruby folk: We've been discussing .... = Again, many of the specialists work with lists where the above behavior is normal. They are already self-trained in how to manage cross-posting. Having a netiquette that allows that type of consistency is helpful. A netiquette that says, every time the subject of a thread drifts from one specialty (-packaging) to another (-ruby) causes the exact issues you're trying to avoid by being against cross-posting. Greg -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

On Sat, Dec 8, 2012 at 9:48 AM, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

* Greg Freemyer [12-08-12 09:43]: ...

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I argue for the specialist lists the current situation is worse.

Just a day or two ago a thread on -packaging discussing ruby gems was started. 4 or 5 messages into it, one of the parties said it really should be on the -ruby list.

It went silent on -packaging and I can only assume it is now taking place on -ruby which I don't subscribe to.

My belief is that -ruby should have just been added to the cc: list and the thread continue to keep -packaging included. A simple intro sentence saying:

=== Adding -ruby in cc.

Intro for -ruby folk: We've been discussing .... =

Again, many of the specialists work with lists where the above behavior is normal. They are already self-trained in how to manage cross-posting.

Having a netiquette that allows that type of consistency is helpful. A netiquette that says, every time the subject of a thread drifts from one specialty (-packaging) to another (-ruby) causes the exact issues you're trying to avoid by being against cross-posting.

and continues off-topic posting in the errant list[s].

But it is not off-topic for -packaging. Most packagers are not experts in every language used by the packages they maintain. That is a reality. NB: Most programmers can't package, so don't assume in general packaging questions should go to a programming list. Nothing would be farther from the truth. So when a packager hits a situation where the underlying language is causing his package to no longer build, he has a programming language specific packaging question. They happen routinely on the -packaging list. They are on-topic. In this case there was also another list for which it was even more on-topic. Say good-bye thread as it moves from a "good" place to the "best" place for it. The same is true of the -artwork/-project thread. It started on -artwork as a discussion of a contest to get new art submissions. After some internal discussion, -project was added to get a broader audience, but that doesn't mean the people on -artwork wanted to be dropped from the thread. Surely they still wanted to know what was being said about the contest. For large/busy non-specialized lists like opensuse@opensuse.org, no cross-posting may make sense, but for the dozens of small low volume opensuse lists, it helps to cross-post topics that cross boundaries. I'm not saying it should be 5 or 10% of the total, but I am saying it is in general more helpful than harmful. Further I'm saying it already happens on those lists and the participants in those lists aren't complaining. The complaint came because someone cross-posted to opensuse@opensuse.org. So I'm fine with the netiquette being updated to address the closed lists, but the open lists are doing just fine the way they are. Greg -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

On 09/12/12 05:43, Rajko wrote:

On Thu, 6 Dec 2012 12:09:13 -0500 Greg Freemyer wrote:

...

The netiquette was updated in the last couple days to explicitely say cross-posting is wrong:

http://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Mailing_list_netiquette#Cross_posting And now is updated to tell word or two when it can be used without major complains, and also expanded on what is topic.

Please read and complain^W improve :)

Sorry, Rajko, but what is this googlydook?- "Other lists are protected with spam filters and don't require subscription to post, so they can be used to cross post without the broken thread problem, but even then use it only when it is absolutely necessary." WHICH lists *don't* *require* *subscription* *to* *post* (and are protected by spam fllters)? (Big question: what is the relationship between "spam filter" and 'not having to subscribe'? I don't see any relationship. My ISP has spam filter(s) in place but this has nothing to do with what I can and cannot subscribe to. What was the point that you were trying to make?) Since I started using oS I had always assumed that all oS were "by invitation only" - otherwise why all the crap about getting a person - whose initials are FM - banned from the lists 3 years ago?! If I wanted to access "everything and anything goes" then I would be getting and using Newsgroups where any Tom, Harry and Dickhead is able to access. Please list these oS lists which are "open" so that I can unsubscribe from them if I had subscribed to them under without being advised that they are "open". BC -- Using openSUSE 12.2 x86_64 KDE 4.9.4 & kernel 3.6.10-1 on a system with- AMD FX 8-core 3.6/4.2GHz processor 16GB PC14900/1866MHz Quad Channel Corsair "Vengeance" RAM Gigabyte AMD3+ m/board; Gigabyte nVidia GTX550Ti 1GB DDR5 GPU -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 El 2012-12-19 a las 22:10 +1100, Basil Chupin escribió:

(Big question: what is the relationship between "spam filter" and 'not having to subscribe'? I don't see any relationship. My ISP has spam filter(s) in place but this has nothing to do with what I can and cannot subscribe to. What was the point that you were trying to make?)

As in an open list anyone can post, even spammers, it is best to have an antispam entry filter so that those spam posts do not get sent.

Since I started using oS I had always assumed that all oS were "by invitation only" - otherwise why all the crap about getting a person - whose initials are FM - banned from the lists 3 years ago?!

None of the lists here are by invitation only, except one or two restricted lists. Not this one, for instance.

Please list these oS lists which are "open" so that I can unsubscribe from them if I had subscribed to them under without being advised that they are "open".

Henne answered that, so get busy :-) - -- Cheers Carlos E. R. (from 11.4, with Evergreen, x86_64 "Celadon" (Minas Tirith)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) iF4EAREIAAYFAlDS8aEACgkQja8UbcUWM1wpswD+J6T6029JoeGzlZxm7IN3M9+j crtOVq6nvUCheGIMnyQA/00/TmbW0SJ3CGPqG4AT9cgMfTZgld8HvVGeEttF5Wuh =s7Cs -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

On 21/12/12 12:45, Rajko wrote:

On Wed, 19 Dec 2012 22:10:39 +1100 Basil Chupin wrote:

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WHICH lists *don't* *require* *subscription* *to* *post* (and are protected by spam fllters)? See Greg's answer.

Which only refers to something that Henne wrote, namely: "Only the user to user support lists are closed. So opensuse and opensuse-$LANG. Everything else is open. Henne" which does not make real sense as written. I think that there is a problem with what people THINK what the openSUSE mail lists are all about and what in fact may be the case. Read what is written here: http://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Mailing_lists_subscription#Available_mailing... There is nothing written there to indicate "open" and "closed" mail lists. As far as I have been aware for all these years, *all* openSUSE mail lists are CLOSED in as far as that one needs to subscribe to them in order to receive from and post messages to these lists. AND the only exceptional treatment given to any openSUSE mail list is that the OFFTOPIC list is *not* accessed by Google for storage of posts for all eternity - a condition which was put to its participants for a vote and the result accepted by Henne. When Fred Miller was thrown out of this - and other openSUSE lists - by Henne the argument was that if one belonged to a private list then you obeyed the rules of that private list - a view which I upheld. But now, suddenly, there are no such private lists in openSUSE (except for whatever Henne wrote above). If there are language problems in interpreting what the openSUSE lists are all about then, please, can we get proper and correct translations in place about them - in something like http://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Mailing_lists_subscription#Available_mailing... ?

(Big question: what is the relationship between "spam filter" and 'not having to subscribe'? ... When list is using spam filter then you don't have to subscribe to list in order >> to post a message << . To receive emails you still have to subscribe, as subscription is nothing more then a message to list server to send you emails about some topic that is discussed on certain mail list.

Spam filters allow people that have no interest to receive emails permanently ie. to have subscription, to post message to the list after reading archived mails. Such people sometimes ask to keep them in CC in order to take part in discussion.

As you can see from above, spam filters have absolutely nothing to do with the nature of the mail lists. BC -- Using openSUSE 12.2 x86_64 KDE 4.9.4 & kernel 3.6.10-1 on a system with- AMD FX 8-core 3.6/4.2GHz processor 16GB PC14900/1866MHz Quad Channel Corsair "Vengeance" RAM Gigabyte AMD3+ m/board; Gigabyte nVidia GTX550Ti 1GB DDR5 GPU -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org