[opensuse-project] openSUSE Remastered DVD
Hello, this topic affects all openSUSE users. Therefore, I turn directly to the responsible person of the openSUSE project. I think this is very important for all those users, who saves bandwidth and time while the openSUSE installation. In the past, there was an officially openSUSE Remastered DVD. [1] Unfortunately this was only the first and the last remastered DVD. I know that downloaded delta RPMs can a bit smaller as the original RPM but the creating of an RPM from delta RPM costs many time. Another example: If there is an update for zypper/libzypp or something relevant packages for the installer, the YaST installer has to restart itself after a zypper update. This is not wrong but it also costs time. Sometimes the openSUSE user has not an internet connection (e.g., WLAN or a special Ethernet card) but he needs the latest updated kernel from update repository that fixed several issues like graphics card driver (e.g., distorted screen) or network driver or something hardware related issue. Just as an example. Can we repeat this success story? [1] http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-announce/2006-10/msg00001.html -- Kind regards, Sebastian - openSUSE Member (Freespacer) Website/Blog: http://www.sebastian-siebert.de Important notes on openSUSE Mailing List: http://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Mailing_list_netiquette -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 On 2014-04-07 03:37, Sebastian Siebert wrote:
In the past, there was an officially openSUSE Remastered DVD. [1] Unfortunately this was only the first and the last remastered DVD.
Well, that operation was done because of a disaster. It was damage control, actually. The normal DVD was simply impossible to install for many people. So we are fortunate that there has been no need to remaster the DVD again :-) It was not a success story, but something better forgotten! On the other hand, it would be nice if somebody could create an updated DVD, unofficial: meaning just best effort, no in depth testing, no wide mirroring, about 6..8 months after release, to facilitate installations on sites with limited bandwidth. Alternatively, a DVD with the updates needed for the install DVD, not the entire repo. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" (Minas Tirith)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/ iF4EAREIAAYFAlNChvMACgkQja8UbcUWM1wYpgD/eG4jnq1EOV6k/BGGInH0rsnS 6fVdR6qj0YQad+hFlUwBAIA8DdVUWDIbVOT2f+4em27SCeggzoaD9iruTLwzcAzR =Y6XA -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
Am 07.04.2014 13:07, schrieb Carlos E. R.:
On 2014-04-07 03:37, Sebastian Siebert wrote:
In the past, there was an officially openSUSE Remastered DVD. [1] Unfortunately this was only the first and the last remastered DVD.
Well, that operation was done because of a disaster. It was damage control, actually. The normal DVD was simply impossible to install for many people. So we are fortunate that there has been no need to remaster the DVD again :-)
It was not a success story, but something better forgotten!
On the other hand, it would be nice if somebody could create an updated DVD, unofficial: meaning just best effort, no in depth testing, no wide mirroring, about 6..8 months after release, to facilitate installations on sites with limited bandwidth.
Alternatively, a DVD with the updates needed for the install DVD, not the entire repo.
Wouldnt it be easy to maintain an official Tumbleweed-DVD in SUSE Studio build once a week? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
Am Montag, 7. April 2014, 14:36:48 schrieb Michael Riess:
Am 07.04.2014 13:07, schrieb Carlos E. R.:
On 2014-04-07 03:37, Sebastian Siebert wrote:
In the past, there was an officially openSUSE Remastered DVD. [1] Unfortunately this was only the first and the last remastered DVD.
Well, that operation was done because of a disaster. It was damage control, actually. The normal DVD was simply impossible to install for many people. So we are fortunate that there has been no need to remaster the DVD again :-)
It was not a success story, but something better forgotten!
On the other hand, it would be nice if somebody could create an updated DVD, unofficial: meaning just best effort, no in depth testing, no wide mirroring, about 6..8 months after release, to facilitate installations on sites with limited bandwidth.
Alternatively, a DVD with the updates needed for the install DVD, not the entire repo.
Wouldnt it be easy to maintain an official Tumbleweed-DVD in SUSE Studio build once a week?
Not necessarily a Tumbleweed, but a standard Release with updates. AFAIK the packages are loaded on each build run, so adding the update-repo should fix it.... Cheers/Axel -- Dr.-Ing. Axel K. Braun Mobile: +49.173.7003.154 VoIP/Skype: axxite PGP Fingerprint: CB03 964D 1CFA E87B AA63 53F3 1BD6 F53A EB48 EF22 Public Key available at http://www.axxite.com/axel.braun@gmx.de.asc This mail was *not scanned* before sending. It was sent from a secure Linux-Desktop: ThinkPad T520 OS: openSUSE 13.1 (x86_64) Kernel: 3.11.10-7-desktop KDE: 4.11.5
On Mon, 07 Apr 2014 14:36:48 +0200, Michael Riess wrote:
Am 07.04.2014 13:07, schrieb Carlos E. R.:
On 2014-04-07 03:37, Sebastian Siebert wrote:
In the past, there was an officially openSUSE Remastered DVD. [1] Unfortunately this was only the first and the last remastered DVD.
Well, that operation was done because of a disaster. It was damage control, actually. The normal DVD was simply impossible to install for many people. So we are fortunate that there has been no need to remaster the DVD again :-)
It was not a success story, but something better forgotten!
On the other hand, it would be nice if somebody could create an updated DVD, unofficial: meaning just best effort, no in depth testing, no wide mirroring, about 6..8 months after release, to facilitate installations on sites with limited bandwidth.
Alternatively, a DVD with the updates needed for the install DVD, not the entire repo.
Wouldnt it be easy to maintain an official Tumbleweed-DVD in SUSE Studio build once a week?
I don't know that Studio can be used to build installation media the way the installation DVD is built. I think that's done with kiwi, isn't it (which means it should be able to be done in OBS, doesn't it?) But Carlos brings up some good points about testing and supportability - something like that would need to be tested by someone, and personally, I'd rather the developers were focused on the next release rather than on "fixing" the current release media with the latest patches. The first answer I would be inclined to give to users who installed with unofficial media containing all current updates and were having post- installation problems would be "download the official release and try that, see if that resolves your problem" - precisely because these interim "releases" wouldn't have the kind of testing the actual releases have (ie, no alpha/beta/milestone releases, for example, and not being used by anywhere near as many users). Jim -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
On April 7, 2014 9:02:07 PM EDT, Jim Henderson
On Mon, 07 Apr 2014 14:36:48 +0200, Michael Riess wrote:
Am 07.04.2014 13:07, schrieb Carlos E. R.:
On 2014-04-07 03:37, Sebastian Siebert wrote:
In the past, there was an officially openSUSE Remastered DVD. [1] Unfortunately this was only the first and the last remastered DVD.
Well, that operation was done because of a disaster. It was damage control, actually. The normal DVD was simply impossible to install for many people. So we are fortunate that there has been no need to remaster the DVD again :-)
It was not a success story, but something better forgotten!
On the other hand, it would be nice if somebody could create an updated DVD, unofficial: meaning just best effort, no in depth testing, no wide mirroring, about 6..8 months after release, to facilitate installations on sites with limited bandwidth.
Alternatively, a DVD with the updates needed for the install DVD, not the entire repo.
Wouldnt it be easy to maintain an official Tumbleweed-DVD in SUSE Studio build once a week?
I don't know that Studio can be used to build installation media the way the installation DVD is built. I think that's done with kiwi, isn't it
(which means it should be able to be done in OBS, doesn't it?)
Jim, OBS has more flexibility for have boot options on the DVD, but studio can definitely build boot media (as well as VMs) that work as live media and have the installer available on the desktop. It can export kiwi configs. I don't know if it can import them. Greg -- Sent from my Android phone with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
On Mon, 07 Apr 2014 23:27:25 -0400, Greg Freemyer wrote:
I don't know that Studio can be used to build installation media the way the installation DVD is built. I think that's done with kiwi, isn't it
(which means it should be able to be done in OBS, doesn't it?)
Jim,
OBS has more flexibility for have boot options on the DVD, but studio can definitely build boot media (as well as VMs) that work as live media and have the installer available on the desktop.
Which is different than an installation DVD, which is the topic of discussion here. The reason Live media isn't used as the "full" installation media is because there's not enough room for both a Live image and the full set of software to be installed. AFAIK, Studio cannot create the install DVD, just live media (and in some cases - I think a private instance only - it can do a "preboot ISO" which can push an image to the system being installed - but again, that's different than an installation DVD image.
It can export kiwi configs. I don't know if it can import them.
I don't believe it can. Jim -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2014-04-08 03:02, Jim Henderson wrote:
But Carlos brings up some good points about testing and supportability - something like that would need to be tested by someone, and personally, I'd rather the developers were focused on the next release rather than on "fixing" the current release media with the latest patches.
That's right...
The first answer I would be inclined to give to users who installed with unofficial media containing all current updates and were having post- installation problems would be "download the official release and try that, see if that resolves your problem" - precisely because these interim "releases" wouldn't have the kind of testing the actual releases have (ie, no alpha/beta/milestone releases, for example, and not being used by anywhere near as many users).
However, I would certainly love to see a midterm DVD with the updated packages. Of course I would. But I don't see it as an official thing, just as an experiment. And the publishing site clearly saying that it is an experiment, in case of problems revert to the official one instead. Something like that. I would be tempted to try a hand at it, but I don't know how an install DVD is done. Knowledge of how to boot the dvd, etc. I have not located a documentation of how the openSUSE DVD is created after having a list of packages to put on it... Creating an add-on DVD with the required patches is easier. But of course, that's two DVDs to download. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/ iEYEARECAAYFAlND0uwACgkQtTMYHG2NR9UJJQCcC49JuE1UxWi9JI6lkrUlHzO0 TTIAniMA9YNdfRhDMRBKYtMDstMLUDK9 =qNCf -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2014-04-08 12:43, Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 2014-04-08 03:02, Jim Henderson wrote:
I would be tempted to try a hand at it, but I don't know how an install DVD is done. Knowledge of how to boot the dvd, etc. I have not located a documentation of how the openSUSE DVD is created after having a list of packages to put on it... Creating an add-on DVD with the required patches is easier. But of course, that's two DVDs to download.
Ah, and I forgot to say that I can not upload a DVD. It would take a week at my internet speed... which blocks any local build on my hardware. Even if I knew ho to do it, which I don't. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/ iEYEARECAAYFAlND06AACgkQtTMYHG2NR9X1ZgCfVajsEz8Lm2rSMFclg1xvWFgT ywAAmQG7GLa0BatfKpmns1iWKDUlNCf1 =H3iI -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
Le 08/04/2014 12:46, Carlos E. R. a écrit :
Ah, and I forgot to say that I can not upload a DVD. It would take a week at my internet speed... which blocks any local build on my hardware. Even if I knew ho to do it, which I don't.
if I understand well the problem, I have some points to quote: * the "official" dvd. This one is mostly necessary for germany, where a box is still sold AFAIK, * else the isos don't fit anymore a disk, at least kde live "cd" is more than 900Mo, do not fit a cd. * so there is not more reason not to add in this ("cd") all the langages that fits on the dvd, the main obstacle for using it * the cd is said to be regularly updated and do not need further updates "Can be installed as is (no upgrade).") * the use of flash disks is more and more current. It have only two drawbacks: ** it's much more difficult *for install fests* to have avery version navailable and to share copies ** there are still some computer unable to boot flash disks (but they become very rares) so we could focus on cd's - first thing to do should be *add image writer to k3b to make burn flashs easier* jdd -- http://www.dodin.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
On 2014-04-08 13:30, jdd wrote:
Le 08/04/2014 12:46, Carlos E. R. a écrit :
Ah, and I forgot to say that I can not upload a DVD. It would take a week at my internet speed... which blocks any local build on my hardware. Even if I knew ho to do it, which I don't.
if I understand well the problem, I have some points to quote:
* the "official" dvd. This one is mostly necessary for germany, where a box is still sold AFAIK,
Nonono. We are talking of creating a remastered copy of the full installation DVD, with the packages updated inside to the current versions. Not officially distributed, which means not on the mirrors, perhaps not even on the download page.
* the cd is said to be regularly updated and do not need further updates "Can be installed as is (no upgrade).")
It is not. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar)
On Tuesday 08 of April 2014 15:10:31 Carlos E. R. wrote:
We are talking of creating a remastered copy of the full installation DVD, with the packages updated inside to the current versions.
That wouldn't be sufficient. Surprisingly often an update of a DVD package adds dependency on a non-DVD package - so those would have to be included as well. Quite often these do not have their own update so that even the combination of installation DVD and (complete) update repository is not closed with respect to dependencies. Michal Kubeček -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2014-04-08 15:36, Michal Kubecek wrote:
On Tuesday 08 of April 2014 15:10:31 Carlos E. R. wrote:
We are talking of creating a remastered copy of the full installation DVD, with the packages updated inside to the current versions.
That wouldn't be sufficient. Surprisingly often an update of a DVD package adds dependency on a non-DVD package - so those would have to be included as well. Quite often these do not have their own update so that even the combination of installation DVD and (complete) update repository is not closed with respect to dependencies.
See? I don't know far enough :-) - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/ iEYEARECAAYFAlNEGuMACgkQtTMYHG2NR9V9TQCfbV4DT4A9Xrd6GomTFGzuiRCi 7L4An1zgJbH8B5Z+H2I89VPVZRHJcRl/ =mN+U -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
Le 08/04/2014 15:10, Carlos E. R. a écrit :
On 2014-04-08 13:30, jdd wrote:
Le 08/04/2014 12:46, Carlos E. R. a écrit :
Ah, and I forgot to say that I can not upload a DVD. It would take a week at my internet speed... which blocks any local build on my hardware. Even if I knew ho to do it, which I don't.
if I understand well the problem, I have some points to quote:
* the "official" dvd. This one is mostly necessary for germany, where a box is still sold AFAIK,
Nonono.
well, *yes* there is a box http://en.opensuse.org/Buy_openSUSE so why there is an official dvd and why this dvd can't be changed.
We are talking of creating a remastered copy of the full installation DVD, with the packages updated inside to the current versions. Not officially distributed, which means not on the mirrors, perhaps not even on the download page.
it's what I speak about. But there is no way to change the official dvd and we do not know how to build one, so why we could us a completed cd if there is already an up to date one
* the cd is said to be regularly updated and do not need further updates "Can be installed as is (no upgrade).")
It is not.
you seems to be right http://opensuse.mirrors.proxad.net/opensuse/distribution/13.1/iso/ date november. this is a problem, at least the dl page should not state that it is http://software.opensuse.org/131/en " Live KDE A KDE desktop you can run from DVD or from USB stick. Can be installed as is (no upgrade). " or I do not understand this sentence :-( then no other way than studio... jdd -- http://www.dodin.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
Hello, Am Dienstag, 8. April 2014 schrieb jdd:
http://software.opensuse.org/131/en
" Live KDE A KDE desktop you can run from DVD or from USB stick. Can be installed as is (no upgrade). "
Let me explain ;-) You can use the live iso to install openSUSE _as a fresh installation_. But you can't use the live iso to upgrade an existing installation (an older openSUSE release) to the downloaded version. So "no upgrade" means only fresh installations are possible, but no upgrades of existing (old) openSUSE installations. BTW: The DVD iso doesn't contain a live system, but on the positive side you can use it to upgrade from an older openSUSE installation. (Most useful for people with a slow internet connection - personally I'm glad to have a connection that allows using "zypper dup" ;-) Regards, Christian Boltz -- [CVS] Es gibt auch ein grafisches Frontend (nein, nicht das kranke Cervisia, beim Programieren war da wohl zuviel Cervessa im Spiel) [Gerald Goebel in fontlinge-devel] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
Le 08/04/2014 20:27, Christian Boltz a écrit :
You can use the live iso to install openSUSE _as a fresh installation_.
But you can't use the live iso to upgrade an existing installation (an older openSUSE release) to the downloaded version.
So "no upgrade" means only fresh installations are possible, but no upgrades of existing (old) openSUSE installations.
or, ok, so should say "not for upgrade" thanks jdd -- http://www.dodin.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
On Tue, 08 Apr 2014 20:33:28 +0200, jdd wrote:
Le 08/04/2014 20:27, Christian Boltz a écrit :
You can use the live iso to install openSUSE _as a fresh installation_.
But you can't use the live iso to upgrade an existing installation (an older openSUSE release) to the downloaded version.
So "no upgrade" means only fresh installations are possible, but no upgrades of existing (old) openSUSE installations.
or, ok, so should say "not for upgrade"
The original point, though, was that for those who want a more current DVD for installation or upgrade, it would be useful to have a remastered DVD that had those updated packages on it. That's the original assertion/request/question. So talking about Live media (which doesn't meet that requirement) doesn't really add anything to the topic, because no live media is going to have /all/ of the necessary updates on it, because no live media has all of the /original/ packages on it (that's only on the full installation DVD). Jim -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
Le 08/04/2014 23:24, Jim Henderson a écrit :
The original point, though, was that for those who want a more current DVD for installation or upgrade, it would be useful to have a remastered DVD that had those updated packages on it.
That's the original assertion/request/question. So talking about Live media (which doesn't meet that requirement) doesn't really add anything to the topic, because no live media is going to have /all/ of the necessary updates on it, because no live media has all of the /original/ packages on it (that's only on the full installation DVD).
Jim
wrong the problem is not the "live" part. The problem was the "update" part. I always understood, that meant the cd was a regular weekly built. Alas it's not. and you can build what ever you want, up to 32Gb as 32Gb flash cards are cheap nowaday (I have lot of them around me, approx $20 each) I even have blu-ray disks at hand (25Gb) so do *not* feel blocked by disk size anymore jdd -- http://www.dodin.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
On Tue, 08 Apr 2014 23:38:42 +0200, jdd wrote:
Le 08/04/2014 23:24, Jim Henderson a écrit :
The original point, though, was that for those who want a more current DVD for installation or upgrade, it would be useful to have a remastered DVD that had those updated packages on it.
That's the original assertion/request/question. So talking about Live media (which doesn't meet that requirement) doesn't really add anything to the topic, because no live media is going to have /all/ of the necessary updates on it, because no live media has all of the /original/ packages on it (that's only on the full installation DVD).
Jim
wrong
Please go back and reread Sebastian's original post in this thread. Then follow the link to his referenced e-mail, from Andreas. The question is *specifically* about an updated installation medium with the current versions of the RPMs on it, as was done with 10.1.
the problem is not the "live" part. The problem was the "update" part. I always understood, that meant the cd was a regular weekly built. Alas it's not.
The "Live" part is not part of this discussion. You (and a few others) are conflating the original request - for updated *installation* media (ie, the 4.7 GB installation DVD used for installations and upgrades) with the GNOME and KDE Live media. The latter are not part of Sebastian's request, as near as I can tell. Sebastian, if I'm wrong about this, please clarify.
and you can build what ever you want, up to 32Gb as 32Gb flash cards are cheap nowaday (I have lot of them around me, approx $20 each)
Of course. But that's not the topic that was asked about.
I even have blu-ray disks at hand (25Gb)
so do *not* feel blocked by disk size anymore
Yes, and I can get a 4 TB hard drive as well. That has no relevance to the request for a remastered installation DVD with the updates incorporated into it. It's about a media download that has stuff from the update channel integrated into it so new users downloading the media don't have to download a 4.7 GB DVD ISO, burn it, use it for installation, and then run an online update that downloads potentially mutliple gigabytes of packages post-install. Jim -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
Le 08/04/2014 23:51, Jim Henderson a écrit :
The "Live" part is not part of this discussion. You (and a few others) are conflating the original request - for updated *installation* media
you can *install* from the live cd, but not *update*, what was not obvious to me, so the cd *is* an installation medium
Of course. But that's not the topic that was asked about.
it was clearly said that the official dvd will never be updated, end of this part. Then we need an other medium...
incorporated into it. It's about a media download that has stuff from the update channel integrated into it so new users downloading the media don't have to download a 4.7 GB DVD ISO, burn it, use it for installation, and then run an online update that downloads potentially mutliple gigabytes of packages post-install.
it's exactly what I'm speaking of go to studio.opensuse.org (Aa far as I understand) jdd NB: notice this have to be updated often, updates a dayly -- http://www.dodin.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
On Tue, 08 Apr 2014 23:59:00 +0200, jdd wrote:
Le 08/04/2014 23:51, Jim Henderson a écrit :
The "Live" part is not part of this discussion. You (and a few others) are conflating the original request - for updated *installation* media
you can *install* from the live cd, but not *update*, what was not obvious to me, so the cd *is* an installation medium
Yes, and that is not the "remastered DVD" that was being discussed, nor is it what was referenced. Go read the original post and the referenced post, please.
Of course. But that's not the topic that was asked about.
it was clearly said that the official dvd will never be updated, end of this part. Then we need an other medium...
Which doesn't need to be a live media. The scripts that build the "official" DVD can be used for a remastered version.
incorporated into it. It's about a media download that has stuff from the update channel integrated into it so new users downloading the media don't have to download a 4.7 GB DVD ISO, burn it, use it for installation, and then run an online update that downloads potentially mutliple gigabytes of packages post-install.
it's exactly what I'm speaking of
No, you're talking about a Live media installation, not an updated installation DVD image that can be used for upgrades.
go to studio.opensuse.org (Aa far as I understand)
Which cannot build an *installation* DVD, just a Live DVD image. Jim -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
On April 8, 2014 5:59:00 PM EDT, jdd
Le 08/04/2014 23:51, Jim Henderson a écrit :
The "Live" part is not part of this discussion. You (and a few others) are conflating the original request - for updated *installation* media
you can *install* from the live cd, but not *update*, what was not obvious to me, so the cd *is* an installation medium
Of course. But that's not the topic that was asked about.
it was clearly said that the official dvd will never be updated, end of this part. Then we need an other medium...
incorporated into it. It's about a media download that has stuff from the update channel integrated into it so new users downloading the media don't have to download a 4.7 GB DVD ISO, burn it, use it for installation, and then run an online update that downloads potentially mutliple gigabytes of packages post-install.
it's exactly what I'm speaking of
go to studio.opensuse.org (Aa far as I understand)
Jdd, Installs from a susestudio boot media are all or nothing. So if you put every package available in OSS and OSS-update on the DVD or thumb drive, then the installer will put all of them on your hard drive. Definitely not what I want. (I did not think about that until Jim kept saying it was the wrong choice, so thanks Jim for keeping us straight.) Greg -- Sent from my Android phone with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
Le 09/04/2014 14:03, Greg Freemyer a écrit :
Installs from a susestudio boot media are all or nothing. So if you put every package available in OSS and OSS-update on the DVD or thumb drive, then the installer will put all of them on your hard drive. Definitely not what I want.
did this change recently? I used to add package one by one in the past in studio jdd -- http://www.dodin.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
On April 9, 2014 8:19:52 AM EDT, jdd
Le 09/04/2014 14:03, Greg Freemyer a écrit :
Installs from a susestudio boot media are all or nothing. So if you put every package available in OSS and OSS-update on the DVD or thumb drive, then the installer will put all of them on your hard drive. Definitely not what I want.
did this change recently? I used to add package one by one in the past in studio
jdd
On studio you add them to the boot media one-by-one. When you install from the boot media to the hard drive, everything from the boot media gets installed. So if you put all of OSS and OSS-update on the DVD, you get all of it on your hard disk post install. (I could be mis-remembering, I've only done that once or twice.) Greg Greg -- Sent from my Android phone with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
Le 09/04/2014 16:29, Greg Freemyer a écrit :
On studio you add them to the boot media one-by-one.
When you install from the boot media to the hard drive, everything from the boot media gets installed. So if you put all of OSS and OSS-update on the DVD, you get all of it on your hard disk post install.
(I could be mis-remembering, I've only done that once or twice.)
ok, understood. well... so I don't see any solution, beside having the dvd creation tool chain completely commented. It should be anyway a very good thing -IMHO) jdd -- http://www.dodin.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
On Wed, 09 Apr 2014 14:19:52 +0200, jdd wrote:
Le 09/04/2014 14:03, Greg Freemyer a écrit :
Installs from a susestudio boot media are all or nothing. So if you put every package available in OSS and OSS-update on the DVD or thumb drive, then the installer will put all of them on your hard drive. Definitely not what I want.
did this change recently? I used to add package one by one in the past in studio
No, but again, you're not talking about the same thing. Building images in SUSE Studio is not the same as installing from the installation DVD. SUSE Studio builds runnable images. The only installation options are either a live installer or a preinstall ISO (which has a full image on it that's copied over the contents of a hard drive). There is no "select specific packages or patterns" when you install from a SUSE Studio-generated ISO or media. Install a system from the installation DVD, then install from a live image, and you'll clearly see the difference. The installation DVD has more packages than live media (because live media has a fully operational system on it). Until you've actually done an installation from the installation media, you won't understand what any of us are talking about here with regards to a "remastered" DVD. What Sebastian's question is is about updating the installation DVD media with updated packages. Until you understand that *that* is specifically what he's asking about (and not live media with a live media installer on it), you're having an entirely different discussion than the rest of us. Jim -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
Le 09/04/2014 16:41, Jim Henderson a écrit :
Install a system from the installation DVD, then install from a live image, and you'll clearly see the difference.
not for me, I *always* install the basic kde (or xfce) install. Selecting packages at this moment is much too time consuming (and the risk of failure is not null, meaning you may have to do it several times), but I see the point.
Until you've actually done an installation from the installation media,
I did nearly 30 installs for 13.1 only
you won't understand what any of us are talking about here with regards to a "remastered" DVD. What Sebastian's question is is about updating the installation DVD media with updated packages.
it was clearly said that it's not possible... so why ask again for the same thing? jdd -- http://www.dodin.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
On Wed, 09 Apr 2014 17:38:32 +0200, jdd wrote:
Le 09/04/2014 16:41, Jim Henderson a écrit :
Install a system from the installation DVD, then install from a live image, and you'll clearly see the difference.
not for me, I *always* install the basic kde (or xfce) install. Selecting packages at this moment is much too time consuming (and the risk of failure is not null, meaning you may have to do it several times), but I see the point.
Until you've actually done an installation from the installation media,
I did nearly 30 installs for 13.1 only
you won't understand what any of us are talking about here with regards to a "remastered" DVD. What Sebastian's question is is about updating the installation DVD media with updated packages.
it was clearly said that it's not possible... so why ask again for the same thing?
I don't think Carlos' opinion about the practicality is an 'official' statement, unless I missed something else. There's no reason that someone else couldn't do it, but the project itself doesn't want to do this because of the overhead of testing that would be incurred. But as an OSS project, it's certainly something that someone who wanted to take on those tasks could do. The build process is pretty public, so it's not like building the official media is some sort of closely-guarded secret. Jim -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
Le 09/04/2014 18:03, Jim Henderson a écrit :
would be incurred. But as an OSS project, it's certainly something that someone who wanted to take on those tasks could do.
The build process is pretty public, so it's not like building the official media is some sort of closely-guarded secret.
it could be very useful, for sure jdd -- http://www.dodin.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
On 2014-04-09 18:03, Jim Henderson wrote:
On Wed, 09 Apr 2014 17:38:32 +0200, jdd wrote:
it was clearly said that it's not possible... so why ask again for the same thing?
I don't think Carlos' opinion about the practicality is an 'official' statement, unless I missed something else.
That's right. It is, however, more or less what people from SUSE (IIRC) said time ago, when asked, because it is not the first time it is asked.
There's no reason that someone else couldn't do it, but the project itself doesn't want to do this because of the overhead of testing that would be incurred. But as an OSS project, it's certainly something that someone who wanted to take on those tasks could do.
Exactly :-)
The build process is pretty public, so it's not like building the official media is some sort of closely-guarded secret.
I would not know where to find a description of the whole process. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar)
On 09.04.2014 20:51, Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 2014-04-09 18:03, Jim Henderson wrote:
On Wed, 09 Apr 2014 17:38:32 +0200, jdd wrote:
it was clearly said that it's not possible... so why ask again for the same thing?
I don't think Carlos' opinion about the practicality is an 'official' statement, unless I missed something else.
That's right.
It is, however, more or less what people from SUSE (IIRC) said time ago, when asked, because it is not the first time it is asked.
There's no reason that someone else couldn't do it, but the project itself doesn't want to do this because of the overhead of testing that would be incurred. But as an OSS project, it's certainly something that someone who wanted to take on those tasks could do.
Exactly :-)
The build process is pretty public, so it's not like building the official media is some sort of closely-guarded secret.
I would not know where to find a description of the whole process.
Hi, thanks all for the discussion on the advantages and disadvantages of a remastered installation DVD. It is a major concern of mine. I think I can give a try to create an openSUSE Remastered DVD as an openSUSE project (if no one dares). My issue for now. How to create a remastered DVD and what should I consider? I want to find out how it works in the practice. Theoretically, there is a solution for everything. ;-) It would be great if the person can contacted to me that have involved to create the official installation DVD. :-) Thanks. -- Kind regards, Sebastian - openSUSE Member (Freespacer) Website/Blog: http://www.sebastian-siebert.de Important notes on openSUSE Mailing List: http://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Mailing_list_netiquette -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
On 2014-04-08 23:51, Jim Henderson wrote:
Yes, and I can get a 4 TB hard drive as well. That has no relevance to the request for a remastered installation DVD with the updates incorporated into it. It's about a media download that has stuff from the update channel integrated into it so new users downloading the media don't have to download a 4.7 GB DVD ISO, burn it, use it for installation, and then run an online update that downloads potentially mutliple gigabytes of packages post-install.
My current update cache has about 2 GB :-) -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar)
On 2014-04-08 16:48, jdd wrote:
Le 08/04/2014 15:10, Carlos E. R. a écrit :
On 2014-04-08 13:30, jdd wrote:
if I understand well the problem, I have some points to quote:
* the "official" dvd. This one is mostly necessary for germany, where a box is still sold AFAIK,
Nonono.
well, *yes* there is a box http://en.opensuse.org/Buy_openSUSE
Again, NO. I don't care for the box, I'm not talking about that box at all. When I talk about the official DVD it is not about the one in the box. It is the one on the official opensuse download page, and it is free. The box is not at all the subject of this thread. AFAIK it is done by a private business, not by openSUSE, so it is not official openSUSE media.
this is a problem, at least the dl page should not state that it is
http://software.opensuse.org/131/en
" Live KDE A KDE desktop you can run from DVD or from USB stick. Can be installed as is (no upgrade). "
or I do not understand this sentence :-(
The sentence means that you can not do an "Offline System Upgrade"⁽¹⁾ using the "CD". For that procedure you need the full DVD or the Netinstall CD. It is a different thing :-) (1) Boot DVD, choose "upgrade" instead of "install", in the menu. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar)
Le 09/04/2014 00:58, Carlos E. R. a écrit :
Again, NO. I don't care for the box,
you should. It's the reason the gold master is blocked a week before release and the official dvd can't be updated (one can't give for free thgings better than what is sold :-) - and it always did.
all. When I talk about the official DVD it is not about the one in the box. It is the one on the official opensuse download page, and it is free.
free to download but bit for bit the same as the one in the box
The box is not at all the subject of this thread. AFAIK it is done by a private business, not by openSUSE, so it is not official openSUSE media.
looking at http://en.opensuse.org/Buy_openSUSE I don't see how it could be less official. but the problem is only because it stops the update of the downloadable dvd.
The sentence means that you can not do an "Offline System Upgrade"⁽¹⁾ using the "CD". For that procedure you need the full DVD or the Netinstall CD.
so it should use your wording. By the way now I know it :-) remain the problem than we do not know how the dvd is built. The ideal way should be in OBS, it could be built automatically from a software list. Then it could be updated nightly (for example). but for now I do not know of other way to create a dvd than studio. It's probably like kde dvd, live (do not matter, but do not hurt) and usable for install but not for update... jdd -- http://www.dodin.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
On 07.04.2014 13:07, Carlos E. R. wrote:
In the past, there was an officially openSUSE Remastered DVD. [1] Unfortunately this was only the first and the last remastered DVD.
Well, that operation was done because of a disaster. It was damage control, actually. The normal DVD was simply impossible to install for many people. So we are fortunate that there has been no need to remaster the DVD again :-)
It was not a success story, but something better forgotten!
It may be a disaster in the past. Today we are technically better positioned.
On the other hand, it would be nice if somebody could create an updated DVD, unofficial: meaning just best effort, no in depth testing, no wide mirroring, about 6..8 months after release, to facilitate installations on sites with limited bandwidth.
Unofficial with no mirroring of ~4.3 GB DVD data. This is really difficult, also in terms of safety. I would rather choose a trusted source directly from the openSUSE project. The openSUSE project has a really good mirror network. Why it is not offered by the existing infrastructure to release a remastered DVD? If the remastered DVD needs more spaces as an DVD, the user can burned it on DL-DVD or write directly to an USB-Stick. This is in fact the slightest problem.
Alternatively, a DVD with the updates needed for the install DVD, not the entire repo.
2 DVDs for the installation? This is not a good idea because this method of installation uses also the most bandwidth. -- Kind regards, Sebastian - openSUSE Member (Freespacer) Website/Blog: http://www.sebastian-siebert.de Important notes on openSUSE Mailing List: http://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Mailing_list_netiquette -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 On 2014-04-07 15:14, Sebastian Siebert wrote:
On 07.04.2014 13:07, Carlos E. R. wrote:
It was not a success story, but something better forgotten!
It may be a disaster in the past. Today we are technically better positioned.
It was a disaster that forced the creation of the remastered DVD. It was not a willing job, not something to be glad about. As there has not been any more such disasters, there has not been any more remastered DVDs.
On the other hand, it would be nice if somebody could create an updated DVD, unofficial: meaning just best effort, no in depth testing, no wide mirroring, about 6..8 months after release, to facilitate installations on sites with limited bandwidth.
Unofficial with no mirroring of ~4.3 GB DVD data. This is really difficult, also in terms of safety. I would rather choose a trusted source directly from the openSUSE project. The openSUSE project has a really good mirror network. Why it is not offered by the existing infrastructure to release a remastered DVD?
Unofficial does not mean "untrusted". Basically it means "not on paid time", but by volunteers, and that distribution is not "mandatory". It also means that SUSE staff doesn't do its creation and intensive testing they do on the normal DVD. That's the main hurdle, the money and resources it cost to do it. And that they don't /have/ to solve a new wave of Bugzillas. Mirrors are run by volunteer organizations, they are not owned nor controlled by openSUSE. You have to ask each one if they are willing to host another DVD or not. You can not simply add a new DVD on the main directory. (consider, for instance, that not all mirrors carry factory or tumbleweed). Only by reducing tests, checks, resources used, etc, they might consider doing it. Some automated process, preferably. It is also an added load to the many volunteers doing support, having to handle installation problems made from a media they have not tested themselves. Any new release (even half release) brings in a wave of new problems.
Alternatively, a DVD with the updates needed for the install DVD, not the entire repo.
2 DVDs for the installation? This is not a good idea because this method of installation uses also the most bandwidth.
Same as downloading a DL DVD. The installation process already allows for the addition of extra addons or dvd. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" (Minas Tirith)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/ iF4EAREIAAYFAlNCqocACgkQja8UbcUWM1x4zQEAlEAciVGRWM2JOAAB6g+OZ3/o cng/aK5hai1xvX8/GN4A/3JKp5Q8hPvg+IzsDxd+tW0rb3zqsiJru7uVTa9bw0Jr =Xs25 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
participants (10)
-
Carlos E. R. -
Carlos E. R. -
Christian Boltz -
Dr. Axel Braun -
Greg Freemyer -
jdd -
Jim Henderson -
Michael Riess -
Michal Kubecek -
Sebastian Siebert