Il giorno mar, 01/05/2007 alle 20.20 +0200, Martin Schlander ha scritto:

openSUSE.org says we're working to make "the world's most usable Linux", and everytime Novell marketers (Justin Steinman and previously Ted Haeger) open their mouthes they say "it's bleeding edge for geeks only". I think we have the right to be confused. And I think this is a serious issue that needs to be addressed.

I agree with Martin. It seems there is a general disagreement on the marketing around openSUSE between what's written and what's is continuously declared by Novell. This sums up with the know communication difficulties of openSUSE towards the users, and doesn't help at all. A. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On Tuesday 01 May 2007 16:51, James Tremblay wrote:

How many versions are there between 6.06 and 7.04 , sounds to me like the billionare is giving away what Novell MUST sell to stay alive, can you say "Microsoft school of marketing". Novell is making a mistake.

The cash cows need to be *more* and openSUSE must not be less. Allow me to explain. openSUSE should be just as stable and robust as SLED, SLES. In other words I should not be compelled to buy SLED or SLES because of robustness or stability. (that should be a standard of excellence) SLED and SLES should have a value *ADD* that compels purchase. They could have a higher tier support... voice support vs on-line... 1 year vs 90 days... etc. But, the openSUSE product should (without support) be just as robust as SLED, SLES. The reason I would purchase SLED, SLES is to receive world class tiered support, printed documentation, voice support, indemnification, etc. But openSUSE needs to be able to compete with Kubuntu... end of story. That's the way I see it. -- Kind regards, M Harris <>< --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On Tuesday 01 May 2007 21:35, James Tremblay wrote: In this example:

YOU , opensuseupdater, We have 2 different applications. opensuseupdater is notification applet that checks repository, and YOU is actual updater

Though in general I can agree that sometimes lesser is more. For new users lesser choices is bigger chance that they will get maximum from installed system. I tested shortly Kubuntu, and while I was missing advanced options, new user would be perfectly happy with offer, because they can do almost everything that they used to do. -- Regards, Rajko. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On Wednesday 02 May 2007 01:54, Silviu Marin-Caea wrote:

...

The reason I would purchase SLED, SLES is to receive world class tiered support, printed documentation, voice support, indemnification, etc.

You are kidding yourself with the support story.  This just doesn't bring enough cash.  I don't see people buy support if the product runs well.   Novell would starve.  It's a vicious circle that I don't know an escape for. Not at all... Novell just hasn't figured it out yet...

... the idea of services and support does not imply that the product (SLED, SLES) does or does not work well. In fact they should work very well... and Novell should have tiered support offerings for it. Allow me to explain. Just monitor the mailing lists... any of them... I monitor about 100 mailing lists for many different products (I monitor *all* of the SUSE lists) and I notice that there is a huge demand for support services that has *nothing* whatever to do with bugs or the product not working well... it has everything to do with people wanting to know HOW TO DO SOMETHING and not having enough time or skill to RTFM. --- and here is the big shocker for the Novell team... *they are willing to pay for it* ! Picture an ISSC (International SUSE Support Center). This center is staffed with hundreds of service personnel who work multiple layers (tiers) of support. 1st tier) installation support-- 30 days, voice, fax 2nd tier) bug report --free, fax, forum 3rd tier) general software support service contract annual --- fax, forum 4th tier) general software support service contract annual --- return call 5th tier) general software support service contract annual --- live voice per call) general software support service --- 900 number, mintues rate Now, picture prepackaged software distribution of SLED (SLES) (if it were me I'd try to solicit HP as the provider) with a desktop hot-link for software service contract with ISSC ... there can actually be several locations (mirrored servers, etc Germany, India, United Kingdom, United States) The folks who purchase HP or DELL preloaded machines are going to need support for all kinds of things ---- and they are willing to pay for this service through annual service contract ---- I know, I've seen it work at the IBM Support Centers for over twenty years. Look at it this way... monitor the forums and find every time someone asked how to config grub to do this or that... or how do I adjust my video, or how can I compile a kernel, or how do I make DVD work, or whatever... and then picture them being able to purchase the right to ask those questions from a competant support representative (get the correct answer quickly through whatever tier at an appropriate price) and pay for the right to ask. Instead of being told to RTFM they get their answer and they pay the bill, or they pay for their service contract. As it is now folks pay hundreds of dollars for M$ products with limited support... but suppose instead that they pay limited dollars for the software and $150 dollars for an annual software support service contract from Novell... or Canonical... or ME... there are literally billions of questions to be answered, and millions of people willing to pay for those answers... think about it. -- Kind regards, M Harris <>< --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On Wednesday 02 May 2007 15:02, Kai Ponte wrote:

Nah, it'll never work.

This company, Red Hat tried it and look where they are now. They were ahead of their time... the timing wasn't right... there were two components missing from Red Hat... but by the way, I paid for RedHat's support and loved it... but I digress.

The two components that were missing for RedHat (both ill-related to timing) were these: 1) RedHat was not being used as a world-wide replacement for M$ desktops. 2) RedHat was not being shipped preinstalled on anyone's hardware (desktop, laptop). The two items listed above are changing rapidly with regard to linux preload availability and desktop/laptop offerings. Vista is not going to sell. At least DELL is going to preload Ubuntu... over the next two years millions of people are going to migrate from windoze to linux... its already happening right before your very eyes. The next two-five years are going to bring a very lucrative support services opportunity for the right teams that see the vision and gear up for it. Ubuntu is going to take the world by storm... you wait and see. openSUSE could be included in the migration if they play their cards right... leave M$ and hook up with HP for preloads. (or maybe Novell hasn't considered the fact that they too could build PCs--- I'd buy one) And then Novell needs to become a world class support services provider. Linux is the future for the next 10-20 years and kattie bar the door.... 1) Ubuntu and SUSE are going to replace M$ on the desktop within the next two-five year period... my prediction. 2) All hardware providers, HP, DELL, SUN, IBM... etc will be providing linux default loads on desktops and servers. 3) Everyone is going to be clamoring for software support services offerings. -- Kind regards, M Harris <>< --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On Wednesday 02 May 2007 01:54, Silviu Marin-Caea wrote:

...

...

The reason I would purchase SLED, SLES is to receive world class tiered support, printed documentation, voice support, indemnification, etc.

You are kidding yourself with the support story.  This just doesn't bring enough cash.  I don't see people buy support if the product runs well.   Novell would starve.  It's a vicious circle that I don't know an escape for.

Not at all... Novell just hasn't figured it out yet...

... the idea of services and support does not imply that the product (SLED, SLES) does or does not work well. In fact they should work very well... and Novell should have tiered support offerings for it. Allow me to explain.

Just monitor the mailing lists... any of them... I monitor about 100 mailing lists for many different products (I monitor *all* of the SUSE lists) and I notice that there is a huge demand for support services that has *nothing* whatever to do with bugs or the product not working well... it has everything to do with people wanting to know HOW TO DO SOMETHING and not having enough time or skill to RTFM. --- and here is the big shocker for the Novell team... *they are willing to pay for it* !

Picture an ISSC (International SUSE Support Center). This center is staffed with hundreds of service personnel who work multiple layers (tiers) of support. 1st tier) installation support-- 30 days, voice, fax 2nd tier) bug report --free, fax, forum 3rd tier) general software support service contract annual --- fax, forum 4th tier) general software support service contract annual --- return call 5th tier) general software support service contract annual --- live voice

per call) general software support service --- 900 number, mintues rate

Now, picture prepackaged software distribution of SLED (SLES) (if it were me I'd try to solicit HP as the provider) with a desktop hot-link for software service contract with ISSC ... there can actually be several locations (mirrored servers, etc Germany, India, United Kingdom, United States) The folks who purchase HP or DELL preloaded machines are going to need support for all kinds of things ---- and they are willing to pay for this service through annual service contract ---- I know, I've seen it work at the IBM Support Centers for over twenty years.

Look at it this way... monitor the forums and find every time someone asked how to config grub to do this or that... or how do I adjust my video, or how can I compile a kernel, or how do I make DVD work, or whatever... and then picture them being able to purchase the right to ask those questions from a competant support representative (get the correct answer quickly through whatever tier at an appropriate price) and pay for the right to ask. Instead of being told to RTFM they get their answer and they pay the bill, or they pay for their service contract. As it is now folks pay hundreds of dollars for M$ products with limited support... but suppose instead that they pay limited dollars for the software and $150 dollars for an annual software support service contract from Novell... or Canonical... or ME... there are literally billions of questions to be answered, and millions of people willing to pay for those answers... think about it. I suggested the same thing to the education team and we now have a ttp mailing

On Wednesday 02 May 2007 15:58, M Harris wrote: list for SLA (school license agreement)customers. Maybe this could be a wing of the opensuse team that pays for itself through the 900 number model. maybe we all could be tested as an entrance to the team and be given a log in to what tier we qualify for and when we take a call we get paid a portion of the 900 number rates as well as an monthly paycheck from the support center contracts. if the contracts cost 150.00 per year and the 900 number brings in 1.50 a minute it still seems reasonable. -- James Tremblay Director of Technology Newmarket School District Novell CNE 3\4\5 CLE \ NCE in training. http://en.opensuse.org/education --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Martin Schlander wrote:

Den Tuesday 01 May 2007 19:54:36 skrev jdd sur free:

...

Martin Schlander wrote:

...

Steinman came up with this brilliant idea:

openSUSE - Not for my mom, but for tech enthusiasts wrong, I just make a 10.2 computer for my (87 old) mom :-))

Are you saying Justin Steinman could be wrong?

Martin, it should be: "openSUSE - not for Justin Steinman's mom, but for anyone else"

Obviously openSUSE is much less stable than Ubuntu non-LTS releases, and also much more difficult to use. At least I can't interpret his comments otherwise.

He said more or less the same thing on the Linux Action Show 6 months ago. openSUSE is only for enthusiasts, hobbyists, home developers etc., regular people can't use it. http://www.linuxactionshow.com/?p=64

With friends like these who needs enemies ;-)

Right. "keep your friends close, keep your enemies in the gutter".. wasn't it ?

I think we need one of two things: 1) An explanation, or; 2) Some marting coordination

openSUSE.org says we're working to make "the world's most usable Linux", and everytime Novell marketers (Justin Steinman and previously Ted Haeger) open their mouthes they say "it's bleeding edge for geeks only". I think we have the right to be confused. And I think this is a serious issue that needs to be addressed.

<justkidding> Ted left, one to go. </justkidding> No, seriously, it shows the disconnect between the people working on (open)SUSE and its community on one hand, and Novell on the other side of the Atlantic (before starting an endless off-topic thread [1] about earth maps, I mean the US). But there seems to be hope, as at least some ex-Ximian folks have started to use openSUSE as their distribution (always wondered what they were using) -- amongst other things, it made them notice the sorry state of GNOME on openSUSE, as compared to KDE (I said "made": now there's [2]). Although a lot of credit goes to James Ogley for pushing those repositories out of the ground. Anyhow, Justin's words are disrespectful at best. Even Red Hat managers and advocates-alike wouldn't drop a statement like that. [1] right, this is opensuse-project, not opensuse@opensuse.org ;) [2] http://software.opensuse.org/download/GNOME:/ cheers - -- -o) Pascal Bleser http://linux01.gwdg.de/~pbleser/ /\\ _\_v The more things change, the more they stay insane. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFGN7fnr3NMWliFcXcRAsYGAJ9f+SeMxXxliWCrUM3rHYj3pl2lcACaAhbP +48Je8SBFG75XbAkGAooDs8= =yNz+ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org