Op 05-11-10 14:43, Jos Poortvliet schreef:

On 2010-11-05 Per wrote:

...

I guess Joos

one jos, two joos? ;-)

...

is kinda running it now, but are we getting closer to getting it finalized?

meh, kind'a. we all seem pretty busy, I send a mail to the -strategy mailinglist wednesday but haven't seen any replies from the others yet...

At the conf one piece of feedback was that we need a single-sentence mission to describe what we want - very much like what fedora has:

The Fedora Project's mission is to lead the advancement of free and open source software and content as a collaborative community.

I think I like their mission and it's also pretty correct - so we brainstormed on what would fit openSUSE. Suggestions are very welcome, we currently have:

The openSUSE project's mission is to unlock the posibilities of computers to users around the globe using the power and flexibility of Linux.

To me it sounds straight to the point...... (what is not in it?)

but it's far from perfect. Somehow it should mention we focus on flexibility and power ("make things as simple as possible but no simpler"), it should be ambitious (eg worldwide blabla), focussed on end-users etc - the requirements are clear as they come from the rest of the strategy discusion. But now, how to phrase it in one sentence?

/me bangs his head against the wall again

plz mind head and wall.. ;-) -- Enjoy your time around, Oddball (M9.) (Now or never...) OS: Linux 2.6.34-12-desktop x86_64 Huidige gebruiker: oddball@AMD64x2sfn1 Systeem: openSUSE 11.3 (x86_64) KDE: 4.4.4 (KDE 4.4.4) "release 2" -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

* Martin Schlander [11-05-10 11:47]:

How about something along these lines: "In the openSUSE project we work together to create a professional and powerful Linux distribution, which lets people be productive."

That is very good! -- Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA HOG # US1244711 http://wahoo.no-ip.org Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://counter.li.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Fredag den 5. november 2010 16:57:08 skrev Andreas Jaeger:

On Friday 05 November 2010 16:46:35 Martin Schlander wrote:

...

How about something along these lines: "In the openSUSE project we work together to create a professional and powerful Linux distribution, which lets people be productive."

Too narrow since it excludes the infrastructure around the distribution we have, especially the openSUSE Build Service.

Yeah, I thought of that instantly after clicking send, so I already had a better version prepared in my mind.

Otherwise I would like it ;). Please give it another try :-)

The openSUSE community works together to create professional and powerful technology - letting people be productive with Linux and free/open source software." -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On 11/05/2010 08:46 AM, Martin Schlander wrote:

Fredag den 5. november 2010 14:43:50 skrev Jos Poortvliet:

...

At the conf one piece of feedback was that we need a single-sentence mission to describe what we want - very much like what fedora has:

Ah, smart people at the conference :-)

...

The Fedora Project's mission is to lead the advancement of free and open source software and content as a collaborative community.

I think I like their mission and it's also pretty correct

Well, their mission is quite sympathetic and I'm glad to have Fedora around, but if you read between the lines it really means: "unproductive, bleeding edge, experimental toy for geeks". And I'm pretty sure that most of the openSUSE community wants something rather different - fortunately most of the strategy discussion so far has confirmed this.

...

- so we brainstormed on what would fit openSUSE. Suggestions are very welcome, we currently have:

The openSUSE project's mission is to unlock the posibilities of computers to users around the globe using the power and flexibility of Linux.

but it's far from perfect. Somehow it should mention we focus on flexibility and power ("make things as simple as possible but no simpler"), it should be ambitious (eg worldwide blabla), focussed on end-users etc - the requirements are clear as they come from the rest of the strategy discusion. But now, how to phrase it in one sentence?

Sorry to keep repeating myself, but the keywords here should definitely be productive, powerful and professional :-)

How about something along these lines: "In the openSUSE project we work together to create a professional and powerful Linux distribution, which lets people be productive."

Substitute something else for professional. I am sure there are plenty of users like me who don't care if "professionals" find openSUSE useful. I don't do one thing "professional" with my 11.3 installations, I do things that are useful to me. Let SLED be what professionals use. -- Sent from my Linux box. Regards de KC6KGE. A very happy Flex-3000 user. Skype flamebait Gmail flamebait at gmail dot com -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On 11/06/2010 03:43 AM, Martin Schlander wrote:

Fredag den 5. november 2010 22:07:38 skrev Steven L Hess:

...

On 11/05/2010 08:46 AM, Martin Schlander wrote:

...

How about something along these lines: "In the openSUSE project we work together to create a professional and powerful Linux distribution, which lets people be productive."

Substitute something else for professional. I am sure there are plenty of users like me who don't care if "professionals" find openSUSE useful. I don't do one thing "professional" with my 11.3 installations, I do things that are useful to me. Let SLED be what professionals use.

I'm not an IT professional either. But I still like my distro to have a "professional feel", which I think openSUSE has and is one of the things that sets it apart from some other distros and which should be preserved going forward.

But you might be right that the word is counter-productive here - because it smells a little bit of commercialism and elitism I guess.

I think you put it in better words than I did. -- Sent from my Linux box. Regards de KC6KGE. A very happy Flex-3000 user. Skype flamebait Gmail flamebait at gmail dot com -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Sunday, 2010-11-07 at 11:23 +0100, Per Jessen wrote:

Steven L Hess wrote:

...

Substitute something else for professional. I am sure there are plenty of users like me who don't care if "professionals" find openSUSE useful. I don't do one thing "professional" with my 11.3 installations, I do things that are useful to me. Let SLED be what professionals use.

I'm also not sure professional is the best choice of words here, but the E in SLED is for Enterprise, which is different. There are many small-to-medium size businesses that (could) manage very well with a professional openSUSE distro.

Absolutely. Although, the drop of maintenance time to only 18 months has sent quite a few looking for something else that offers at least 24 months. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. (from 11.2 x86_64 "Emerald" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.12 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkzWlOwACgkQtTMYHG2NR9Wi3gCggKlkWvxRCxJr+wuTiILIr/93 OKUAnRWihvhzIb/rTm2x1+W1vEYRn63s =yciX -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Rajko M. wrote:

And just remark on "short" maintenance term of 18 months. For people that offer services based on openSUSE to SOHO market, it should be no problem if they support only desktops. Having end users to learn few bits ever 1.5 years should not be a problem, it can be seen as your active role to keep customer up to the modern times demands.

Somehow I suspect you don't deal with a lot of business or back-office end-users, Rajko. However, I also don't think the 18 months interval is a problem, it only means that people skip one or two releases, in particular when they (the releases) don't bring any significant/desired new functionality.

With servers is another story, but if you support services that need stability then use SLES, otherwise pull sleeves up and learn how to adapt configuration to new release, or find other in the same position and take over maintenance beyond 1.5 years.

Yep. That works fine too. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (7.0°C) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Rajko M. wrote:

On Sunday 07 November 2010 12:28:35 Per Jessen wrote:

...

Somehow I suspect you don't deal with a lot of business or back-office end-users, Rajko.

No as IT persons do. I'm assembler in my company and I don't touch even things that is easy to rectify, just because I'm not trained to do so :)

I see people that hate the job and any piece of work place, including computers. They don't want to learn more than one path how to accomplish tasks they are paid for. They can't say to the boss the truth, but go around and complain on anything possible.

Generally speaking, businesses prefer stability. Random unnecessary change is bad for productivity and efficiency.

...

However, I also don't think the 18 months interval is a problem, it only means that people skip one or two releases, in particular when they (the releases) don't bring any significant/desired new functionality.

...

With servers is another story, but if you support services that need stability then use SLES, otherwise pull sleeves up and learn how to adapt configuration to new release, or find other in the same position and take over maintenance beyond 1.5 years.

Yep. That works fine too.

Sure, but that was steady complain by few guys on opensuse ML.

Understandably - it's extra effort, which could be avoided by having a longer release cycle. Or one designed to cope well with gaps. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (5.9°C) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Sunday, 2010-11-07 at 11:09 -0600, Rajko M. wrote:

On Sunday 07 November 2010 06:00:37 Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

Although, the drop of maintenance time to only 18 months has sent quite a few looking for something else that offers at least 24 months.

Professional is fine word waking up memories of something that was good in every piece it was installed.

And just remark on "short" maintenance term of 18 months. For people that offer services based on openSUSE to SOHO market, it should be no problem if they support only desktops. Having end users to learn few bits ever 1.5 years should not be a problem, it can be seen as your active role to keep customer up to the modern times demands.

Even a short cycle in desktops is a problem, because it means frequent upgrades on many machines, lot of works. Complicated with the fact that often we have to skip installing a version because it does not work right in one machine or other, and we have to wait 10 months more.

With servers is another story, but if you support services that need stability then use SLES, otherwise pull sleeves up and learn how to adapt configuration to new release, or find other in the same position and take over maintenance beyond 1.5 years.

Provided you can afford it, which is not always the case for small busines, specially those where one person is fighting to install linux against the "common sense" of installing windows. Installing oS is just his time, installing SLES means reall support from the stablishment. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. (from 11.2 x86_64 "Emerald" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.12 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkzYKkIACgkQtTMYHG2NR9UGbQCeLV91xhvs/viz15oxh0pJyXPk ph0An2Pzf+TerdHbiN56wjkb+xzjJnpL =oIBh -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Mandag den 8. november 2010 16:35:59 skrev Jos Poortvliet:

On 2010-11-05 Martin wrote:

...

How about something along these lines: "In the openSUSE project we work together to create a professional and powerful Linux distribution, which lets people be productive."

Yes, that's what we do. Now why do we do it? We do want something right? So what is that? What do we want to change in the world by releasing openSUSE?

If nothing, we'd better stop doing it... ;-)

Man, I'm so glad you said that.

(yes, we do want to bring something - something which is more open, more flexible, more powerful, more professional, more productive. But how to say that in one sentence?)

Here's a revision of my second version, e.g. minus the word 'professional' and with a bit more of a 'why'. "The openSUSE community works together to create useful and powerful technologies, with the aim of enabling productive usage of Linux and free/open source software." -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Jos Poortvliet wrote:

On 2010-11-05 Per wrote:

...

I guess Joos

one jos, two joos? ;-)

Who(o)ps, sorry about that, I was typoing from memory. Feel free to omit an s from my last name :-)

At the conf one piece of feedback was that we need a single-sentence mission to describe what we want - very much like what fedora has:

The Fedora Project's mission is to lead the advancement of free and open source software and content as a collaborative community.

I think I like their mission and it's also pretty correct - so we brainstormed on what would fit openSUSE. Suggestions are very welcome, we currently have:

The openSUSE project's mission is to unlock the posibilities of computers to users around the globe using the power and flexibility of Linux.

Hmm, I can't help thinking this is the kind of mostly pointless corporate mission statement I've have presented with innumerable times in my corporate past.

but it's far from perfect. Somehow it should mention we focus on flexibility and power ("make things as simple as possible but no simpler"), it should be ambitious (eg worldwide blabla), focussed on end-users etc - the requirements are clear as they come from the rest of the strategy discusion. But now, how to phrase it in one sentence?

Have a lot of fun? -- Per Jessen, Zürich (10.8°C) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

If we try to differentiate ourselves from other linux distros, in my opinion, we should try to be a real community distro... A place where ideas are assest independent of whom emanetes them... and where coders, packagers lend their skills to the community and they are not the drivers of what goes in... A place where your idea is rubbish cause you never commited code, you never packaged something... Maybe we should look into a kibbutz like model. Alin On 8 November 2010 15:42, Jos Poortvliet wrote:

On 2010-11-05 Per wrote:

...

Jos Poortvliet wrote:

...

On 2010-11-05 Per wrote:

...

I guess Joos

one jos, two joos? ;-)

Who(o)ps, sorry about that, I was typoing from memory.  Feel free to omit an s from my last name :-)

Per Jesen? Wel, ok :D

But no problem, just thought it was funny :D

...

...

At the conf one piece of feedback was that we need a single-sentence mission to describe what we want - very much like what fedora has:

The Fedora Project's mission is to lead the advancement of free and open source software and content as a collaborative community.

I think I like their mission and it's also pretty correct - so we brainstormed on what would fit openSUSE. Suggestions are very welcome, we currently have:

The openSUSE project's mission is to unlock the posibilities of computers to users around the globe using the power and flexibility of Linux.

Hmm, I can't help thinking this is the kind of mostly pointless corporate mission statement I've have presented with innumerable times in my corporate past.

Hmmm. to check: do you think the same about the one Fedora has?

...

...

but it's far from perfect. Somehow it should mention we focus on flexibility and power ("make things as simple as possible but no simpler"), it should be ambitious (eg worldwide blabla), focussed on end-users etc - the requirements are clear as they come from the rest of the strategy discusion. But now, how to phrase it in one sentence?

Have a lot of fun?

yeah but is that why openSUSE exists? Just to have fun? If it is, fine, of course. I thought we had a slightly higher goal, like Bringing Something Better Into This World.

Not everyone will have the exact same goal which will obviously ensure our mission WILL be a bit wide, vague (and probably, because of that, corporate?). But that doesn't mean we shouldn't try to define it, right?

-- I force myself to contradict myself in order to avoid conforming to my own taste. -- Marcel Duchamp Without Questions there are no Answers! _____________________________________________________________________ Alin Marin ELENA Advanced Molecular Simulation Research Laboratory School of Physics, University College Dublin ---- Ardionsamblú Móilíneach Saotharlann Taighde Scoil na Fisice, An Coláiste Ollscoile, Baile Átha Cliath ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Address: Room 318, UCD Engineering and Material Science Centre University College Dublin Belfield, Dublin 4, Ireland ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://alin.elenaworld.net alin.elena@ucdconnect.ie, alinm.elena@gmail.com ______________________________________________________________________ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

* Per Jessen [11-09-10 07:22]:

First, I think the important thing for a mission statement for a volunteer community is to actually _say_ something. Second, the mission statement isn't meant to express everyones individual goals, it's meant to express just _one_ goal.

Yes and the _one_ goal must be broad and encompassing, not narrow and specific. -- Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA HOG # US1244711 http://wahoo.no-ip.org Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://counter.li.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Regarding mission, I just stumbled upon this: The openSUSE project is a worldwide effort that promotes the use of Linux everywhere. openSUSE creates one of the world's best Linux distributions, working together in an open, transparent and friendly manner as part of the worldwide Free and Open Source Software community. http://en.opensuse.org/Portal:Project Also, I found in an older presentation: The openSUSE project is a worldwide community program sponsored by Novell that promotes the us of Linux everywhere. The program provides free and easy access to openSUSE. Here you can find and join a community of users and developers, who all have the same goal in mind- to create and distribute the world's most usable Linux. openSUSE also provides the base for Novell's award winning SUSE Linux Enterprise products. Andreas -- Andreas Jaeger, Program Manager openSUSE, aj@{novell.com,opensuse.org} Twitter: jaegerandi | Identica: jaegerandi SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) Maxfeldstr. 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany GPG fingerprint = 93A3 365E CE47 B889 DF7F FED1 389A 563C C272 A126 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On Mon, 2010-11-08 at 12:47 +0100, Henne Vogelsang wrote:

Hey,

On 11/8/10 12:44 PM, Andreas Jaeger wrote:

...

Regarding mission, I just stumbled upon this:

The openSUSE project is a worldwide effort that promotes the use of Linux everywhere. openSUSE creates one of the world's best Linux distributions, working together in an open, transparent and friendly manner as part of the worldwide Free and Open Source Software community.

Which is a shortened version of the "We are" paragraph from the guiding principles. The guiding principles already contain all the mission statements we need i think. I fail to see why we need something else.

Henne

The whole point of the strategy discussion is to help better elaborate "who we are"... I think the shortened versions here look pretty good and we should look at polishing it up rather than "coming up with a new one". I kind of hate the "we are the best" mantra, because everyone wants to say they are the best. I'd rather replace it with something more concrete like "we are the most flexible" or "we offer the most choices" or "we create with you in mind" or something to that effect that gives the reader something more concrete to relate to. If they just read "best", they'll say Why is this best compared to the other guy that says "best"? Bryen -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Mandag den 8. november 2010 12:47:44 skrev Henne Vogelsang:

On 11/8/10 12:44 PM, Andreas Jaeger wrote:

...

Regarding mission, I just stumbled upon this:

The openSUSE project is a worldwide effort that promotes the use of Linux everywhere. openSUSE creates one of the world's best Linux distributions, working together in an open, transparent and friendly manner as part of the worldwide Free and Open Source Software community.

Which is a shortened version of the "We are" paragraph from the guiding principles. The guiding principles already contain all the mission statements we need i think. I fail to see why we need something else.

These things say nothing other than that we're a community making a Linux distribution. No useful information for anyone. We really, really, really, really, really need something short and precise which tells users and contributors (potential and existing) alike, *exactly* what we're trying to do and what makes openSUSE different than the gazillion other distros out there. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Am Montag, 8. November 2010, 13:14:15 schrieb Martin Schlander:

Mandag den 8. november 2010 12:47:44 skrev Henne Vogelsang:

...

On 11/8/10 12:44 PM, Andreas Jaeger wrote:

...

Regarding mission, I just stumbled upon this:

The openSUSE project is a worldwide effort that promotes the use of Linux everywhere. openSUSE creates one of the world's best Linux distributions, working together in an open, transparent and friendly manner as part of the worldwide Free and Open Source Software community.

Which is a shortened version of the "We are" paragraph from the guiding principles. The guiding principles already contain all the mission statements we need i think. I fail to see why we need something else.

These things say nothing other than that we're a community making a Linux distribution. No useful information for anyone.

We really, really, really, really, really need something short and precise which tells users and contributors (potential and existing) alike, *exactly* what we're trying to do and what makes openSUSE different than the gazillion other distros out there.

Short and exact is often conflicting, this isn't math you know? =) Karsten -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Le 08/11/2010 13:21, Martin Schlander a écrit :

Mandag den 8. november 2010 13:19:54 skrev Karsten König:

Well.. if you guys get your way openSUSE will continue to be an anarchistic mess without any direction or identity.. or success.

please, don't start again with this jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://pizzanetti.fr -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Tirsdag den 9. november 2010 11:20:50 skrev Karsten König:

how about getting the strategy document done and 'signed' first and afterwards start some kind of competition for a good 3 lines summary/catchphrase

I thought we were already at that point :-) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Hey, On 11/8/10 1:14 PM, Martin Schlander wrote:

Mandag den 8. november 2010 12:47:44 skrev Henne Vogelsang:

...

On 11/8/10 12:44 PM, Andreas Jaeger wrote:

...

Regarding mission, I just stumbled upon this:

The openSUSE project is a worldwide effort that promotes the use of Linux everywhere. openSUSE creates one of the world's best Linux distributions, working together in an open, transparent and friendly manner as part of the worldwide Free and Open Source Software community.

Which is a shortened version of the "We are" paragraph from the guiding principles. The guiding principles already contain all the mission statements we need i think. I fail to see why we need something else.

These things say nothing other than that we're a community making a Linux distribution. No useful information for anyone.

Well not useful if you already know that no. But if you don't its a pretty good description of who we are...

We really, really, really, really, really need something short and precise which tells users and contributors (potential and existing) alike, *exactly* what we're trying to do and what makes openSUSE different than the gazillion other distros out there.

I agree but this is something completely different and we were already on track with that. What happened? Why we are engaging in mission statements for the project now? Looks like ADD to me... Henne -- http://www.opensuse.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Le 08/11/2010 13:32, Martin Schlander a écrit :

When people ask "why openSUSE?" you can't just point them to a 2-3 page document. weel, simply say 'best linux'

:-) jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://pizzanetti.fr -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On Monday 08 November 2010 12:47:44 Henne Vogelsang wrote:

Hey,

On 11/8/10 12:44 PM, Andreas Jaeger wrote:

...

Regarding mission, I just stumbled upon this:

The openSUSE project is a worldwide effort that promotes the use of Linux everywhere. openSUSE creates one of the world's best Linux distributions, working together in an open, transparent and friendly manner as part of the worldwide Free and Open Source Software community.

Which is a shortened version of the "We are" paragraph from the guiding principles. The guiding principles already contain all the mission statements we need i think. I fail to see why we need something else.

Ok. So building on that, taking a few comments from this thread: The openSUSE project is a worldwide effort that promotes the use of Linux everywhere. openSUSE maintains and develops a packaging and distribution infrastructure on which it creates one of the world's most flexible and powerful Linux distributions, working together in an open, transparent and friendly manner as part of the worldwide Free and Open Source Software community. - we're international - we promote linux EVERYWHERE - we build infrastructure - we have created a very flexible and powerful linux distro (a powertool that might be a bit heavy on Aunt Tilly, but she can ask Uncle Tom for help if there are issues) - we work together in an open, transparant etc etc etc way The change is actually very minor, I think most is covered with this and we don't deviate much from what we have. Should be quite acceptable. And for who wants to read more, we have the rest of the strategy which I'll be updating now. Cheers, Jos

Henne

On 09/12/2010 11:51, Jos Poortvliet wrote: [pruned]

Ok. Here goes. Attached the almost-final draft.

[pruned] I think there are areas which need a bit more attention. First: Target users We cater for users who are interested in computers and want to experiment, learn or get work done. The most important target audience is mentioned last - ie those who want to get work done. Those who want to get work done should be mentioned first. Second: What do we not focus on? The openSUSE community has its goals and targets; consequently there are things that are not in the direct focus of our community. *This does of course not mean* it is not possible The part in bold lettering should read: "Of course this does not mean it is not possible......". Three: openSUSE does not: * Oversimplify the system to the point where configuring it becomes harder. We prefer flexibility over an (extreme) focus on ease of use. * Always *having* the latest and greatest in the shipped releases. The word here should be "*have*" and not "having" so that the whole thing would read, "openSUSE does not always have the latest and greatest......". For your consideration. BC -- Attorney: Are you qualified to give a urine sample? Witness: Are you qualified to ask that question? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Op 09-12-10 09:33, pb@seat-1.com schreef:

On Thu, 9 Dec 2010 01:51:16 +0100 Jos Poortvliet wrote:

...

openSUSE - Linux for grown-ups

Linux with "adult" content?

LOL... -- Enjoy your time around, Oddball (M9.) (Now or never...) OS: Linux 2.6.34-12-desktop x86_64 Huidige gebruiker: oddball@AMD64x2sfn1 Systeem: openSUSE 11.3 (x86_64) KDE: 4.4.4 (KDE 4.4.4) "release 2" -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

"openSUSE. Linux for grown-ups". I like it, but a comment from Helen South struck me:

...

Not keen on 'Linux for Grown-Ups'. Odd combination of arrogant and boring.

openSUSE: Your Linux distribution ?? -- Robert Schweikert MAY THE SOURCE BE WITH YOU Software Engineer Consultant LINUX rschweikert@novell.com 781-464-8147 Novell Making IT Work As One -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Jos Poortvliet wrote:

On Thursday 09 December 2010 14:23:03 Robert Schweikert wrote:

...

...

"openSUSE. Linux for grown-ups". I like it, but a comment from Helen South

struck me:

...

Not keen on 'Linux for Grown-Ups'. Odd combination of arrogant and boring.

openSUSE: Your Linux distribution

We do more than a distro :D

Yes, but what should be our ultimate objective? -- Per Jessen, Zürich (0.9°C) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On 12/10/2010 04:41 AM, Jos Poortvliet wrote:

On Thursday 09 December 2010 14:23:03 Robert Schweikert wrote:

...

...

"openSUSE. Linux for grown-ups". I like it, but a comment from Helen South

struck me:

...

Not keen on 'Linux for Grown-Ups'. Odd combination of arrogant and boring.

openSUSE: Your Linux distribution

We do more than a distro :D

And how does "Linux for Grown-Ups" reflect that? BTW, my kids have openSUSE on their computers, maybe they shouldn't as they are definitely not grown up ;)

...

??

-- Robert Schweikert MAY THE SOURCE BE WITH YOU Software Engineer Consultant LINUX rschweikert@novell.com 781-464-8147 Novell Making IT Work As One -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

* Jos Poortvliet [12-08-10 19:22]:

- we have created a very flexible and powerful linux distro (a powertool that might be a bit heavy on Aunt Tilly, but she can ask Uncle Tom for help if there are issues)

Some of the US populous may take exception to the use of "Uncle Tom". I would suggest another name. sugg.. Aunt Tilly and Uncle Jack. -- Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA HOG # US1244711 http://wahoo.no-ip.org Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://counter.li.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Torsdag den 9. december 2010 01:21:18 skrev Jos Poortvliet:

So building on that, taking a few comments from this thread:

The openSUSE project is a worldwide effort that promotes the use of Linux everywhere. openSUSE maintains and develops a packaging and distribution infrastructure on which it creates one of the world's most flexible and powerful Linux distributions, working together in an open, transparent and friendly manner as part of the worldwide Free and Open Source Software community.

- we're international - we promote linux EVERYWHERE - we build infrastructure - we have created a very flexible and powerful linux distro (a powertool that might be a bit heavy on Aunt Tilly, but she can ask Uncle Tom for help if there are issues) - we work together in an open, transparant etc etc etc way

That's supposed to be the mission statement? It's too long and names like Aunt Tilly or Uncle Whatever have no business being in anything official. Shortened, no nonsense version: "The openSUSE community maintains and develops a packaging and distribution infrastructure on which we create a flexible and powerful Linux distribution - working together in an open, transparent and friendly manner." -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Martin Schlander wrote:

Torsdag den 9. december 2010 16:39:10 skrev Martin Schlander:

...

Shortened, no nonsense version:

"The openSUSE community maintains and develops a packaging and distribution infrastructure on which we create a flexible and powerful Linux distribution - working together in an open, transparent and friendly manner."

I was too quick on the send button. This statement makes no mention of stability/productivity at all - which I think should be at the very core of the mission statement.

Maintaining and developing a packaging and distribution infrastructure is no doubt important, but does it really belong in the mission statement? -- Per Jessen, Zürich (0.9°C) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On Thursday, December 09, 2010 09:49:19 am Per Jessen wrote:

...

Maintaining and developing a packaging and distribution infrastructure is no doubt important, but does it really belong in the mission statement?

It should be. It is one of advantages that openSUSE has.

Build Service is a packaging system that can serve any software or distribution developer and it is our big plus. It gives weight to statements that call for cross distribution collaboration.

Apropos, if we look on Build Service we have long term commitment to cross distribution collaboration, which is way to go, instead of splitting efforts in smaller and smaller pieces as it is now.

Doesn't this imply that we now have 2 distinct products: a build service whose primarily market is the FOSS development community; and a distribution whose primary market is the Linux end users. There is overlap between these groups but people who use the build service do not necessarily need to use OS, and I'm fairly certain a majority of users don't use the build service. These two groups of people are looking for different things when they come to openSUSE. To cover them both adequately in a single mission statement is going to demand a high level statement (e.g. be the best in the world at building Linux distributions) with OS as our primary example (flagship) of this expertise. This would be a significant change in focus (OS as the primary product, build service as a tool we've built to do it which you can also use if you want). David -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On Thursday 09 December 2010 16:39:10 Martin Schlander wrote:

Torsdag den 9. december 2010 01:21:18 skrev Jos Poortvliet:

...

So building on that, taking a few comments from this thread:

The openSUSE project is a worldwide effort that promotes the use of Linux everywhere. openSUSE maintains and develops a packaging and distribution infrastructure on which it creates one of the world's most flexible and powerful Linux distributions, working together in an open, transparent and friendly manner as part of the worldwide Free and Open Source Software community.

- we're international - we promote linux EVERYWHERE - we build infrastructure - we have created a very flexible and powerful linux distro (a powertool that might be a bit heavy on Aunt Tilly, but she can ask Uncle Tom for help if there are issues) - we work together in an open, transparant etc etc etc way

That's supposed to be the mission statement?

It's too long and names like Aunt Tilly or Uncle Whatever have no business being in anything official.

Shortened, no nonsense version:

"The openSUSE community maintains and develops a packaging and distribution infrastructure on which we create a flexible and powerful Linux distribution - working together in an open, transparent and friendly manner."

The statement should only be the text part, not the bullet points I wrote below it to explain... so:

The openSUSE project is a worldwide effort that promotes the use of Linux everywhere. openSUSE maintains and develops a packaging and distribution infrastructure on which it creates one of the world's most flexible and powerful Linux distributions, working together in an open, transparent and friendly manner as part of the worldwide Free and Open Source Software community.

Seems rather complete, right?

On 10/12/2010 21:21, Per Jessen wrote:

Jos Poortvliet wrote:

...

The statement should only be the text part, not the bullet points I wrote below it to explain...

so:

...

The openSUSE project is a worldwide effort that promotes the use of Linux everywhere. openSUSE maintains and develops a packaging and distribution infrastructure on which it creates one of the world's most flexible and powerful Linux distributions, working together in an open, transparent and friendly manner as part of the worldwide Free and Open Source Software community. Seems rather complete, right? I'd like to suggest shortening/sharpening it a bit:

The openSUSE project is a worldwide effort to create the world's most flexible and powerful Linux distribution, working together in an open, transparent and friendly manner as part of the worldwide Free and Open Source Software community.

This sounds like it is expressing the same sentiments as, "I'm from the government. I am here to help you." BC -- Attorney: Can you describe the individual? Witness: He was about medium height and had a beard. Attorney: And was it a male or a female? Witness: Unless the circus was in town I'm going with male. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On 10/12/2010 21:37, Per Jessen wrote:

Basil Chupin wrote:

...

...

Jos Poortvliet wrote:

...

The statement should only be the text part, not the bullet points I wrote below it to explain...

so:

...

The openSUSE project is a worldwide effort that promotes the use of Linux everywhere. openSUSE maintains and develops a packaging and distribution infrastructure on which it creates one of the world's most flexible and powerful Linux distributions, working together in an open, transparent and friendly manner as part of the worldwide Free and Open Source Software community. Seems rather complete, right? I'd like to suggest shortening/sharpening it a bit:

The openSUSE project is a worldwide effort to create the world's most flexible and powerful Linux distribution, working together in an open, transparent and friendly manner as part of the worldwide Free and Open Source Software community. This sounds like it is expressing the same sentiments as, "I'm from

On 10/12/2010 21:21, Per Jessen wrote: the government. I am here to help you." Can't really be helped Basil, it was mostly designed by comittee.

:-D True. BC -- Attorney: Can you describe the individual? Witness: He was about medium height and had a beard. Attorney: And was it a male or a female? Witness: Unless the circus was in town I'm going with male. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On Friday 10 December 2010 12:35:19 pb@seat-1.com wrote:

On Fri, 10 Dec 2010 22:16:14 +1100

Basil Chupin and others wrote:

...

...

...

...

...

> The openSUSE project is a worldwide effort that promotes the use > > ...

As a potential user or community member, would I be attracted by such a statement?

No.

... by a claim like "openSUSE ist the most usable Linux distribution" ?

Yes.

It might be only a claim but at least it shows that they care and it creates some hope that the claim may be fullfilled. It's also makes a perfect internal decision guide line.

But that claim is marketing, not our mission. Remember, a mission is internal. It's what we use to tell potential new contributors why we do what we do.

On 12/10/2010 07:55 AM, Martin Schlander wrote:

Fredag den 10. december 2010 13:27:54 skrev Jos Poortvliet:

...

Remember, a mission is internal. It's what we use to tell potential new contributors why we do what we do.

I have to disagree here in the strongest possible terms :-)

The mission is what we tell _all_ our stakeholders, when we want to explain what openSUSE is all about - that means end-users, contributors, sponsors, the wider FOSS-community in general, upstream, Attachmate suits, etc.

Yes, strongly agree with Martin's statement. Robert -- Robert Schweikert MAY THE SOURCE BE WITH YOU Software Engineer Consultant LINUX rschweikert@novell.com 781-464-8147 Novell Making IT Work As One -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Le 10/12/2010 16:42, Bjørn Lie a écrit : openSUSE - Omnipotent Linux. openSUSE: You master the world :-) wait, men, what ever you write, on three lines, this will never mean anything. We can say: openSUSE: You master the open source world (yes I know Free software/open source, but what can we do) but we *have* to say immediately after how we do: * a powerfull friendly Linux distribution * a powerfull, open to any open source programme build service * a vibrant community all over the world (...) jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://pizzanetti.fr -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On Friday, December 10, 2010 06:51:15 am Martin Schlander wrote:

The openSUSE community invites everyone to join us in creating a powerful, up to date and productive Linux distribution plus distribution building infrastructure. We work together in an open, transparent and friendly manner as part of the worldwide Free and Open Source Software community.

I would only scramble a bit the sentence, leaving out "transparent" (I can't imagine open without transparent and vice versa), ---------------------------------------------------------------------- The openSUSE community invites everyone that wants to work in open and friendly way to join creation of a powerful, up to date, productive Linux distribution based on Free and Open Source Software. Our advantages are Build Service, for simple creation of software packages or whole distributions, YaST and MirrorBrain, providing first class software management with top rated security, strong web infrastructure covering all other aspects of software development and use. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- I advocate bullet points as better way to present information, so the similar content: The openSUSE community invites everyone: * software developers * artists and web designers * writers * people with ideas to join creation of a powerful, up to date, productive Linux distribution based on Free and Open Source Software. Our advantages are: * Build Service, for simple creation of software packages or whole distributions, * YaST and MirrorBrain, providing first class software management with top rated security. * Strong web infrastructure with: ** documentation servers, ** user help forums, mail lists and live help on IRC, ** bug reporting and feature requests sites ** collaboration wikis in multiple languages -- Regards, Rajko -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On Sunday, December 12, 2010 06:26:58 am Per Jessen wrote:

Rajko M. wrote:

...

On Friday, December 10, 2010 06:51:15 am Martin Schlander wrote:

...

The openSUSE community invites everyone to join us in creating a powerful, up to date and productive Linux distribution plus distribution building infrastructure. We work together in an open, transparent and friendly manner as part of the worldwide Free and Open Source Software community.

I would only scramble a bit the sentence, leaving out "transparent" (I can't imagine open without transparent and vice versa),

Hmm, I can - there are plenty of "open source projects" out there, where e.g. the project organisation is completely non-transparent.

"We work in a open way" is reference to whole organization activity and results of that activity. Term "open source project" means that project's source code is publicly available to anyone willing to accept license terms and that license is accepted as open source license. It doesn't tell anything about openness of any other part of the project. -- Regards, Rajko -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Le 12/12/2010 18:45, Per Jessen a écrit :

imply transparent, I think it's a good idea to include transparent.

anyway it doesn't hurt... jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://pizzanetti.fr -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On 13/12/2010 12:00, Rajko M. wrote:

On Sunday, December 12, 2010 11:45:46 am Per Jessen wrote: ...

...

...

"We work in a open way" is reference to whole organization activity and results of that activity.

Term "open source project" means that project's source code is publicly available to anyone willing to accept license terms and that license is accepted as open source license. It doesn't tell anything about openness of any other part of the project. Exactly - do you think anyone really cares much about the fact that our "open" is not quite the same as in "open source"? "open" does not imply transparent, I think it's a good idea to include transparent. We can split the hare until we get nausea,

For future reference, Rajko, the (English) expression is "splitting hairs" :-) . (I know that English is not your first language.)

by taking one word out of context and slapping some other word to create perception of different meanings.

I used "open way" which as combination of words includes "transparent" and implies more, so adding word transparent in that context is plain redundancy.

But, you know, I cannot help wondering if this whole discussion is a "rear-guard" action to promote the declining fortunes of SuSE, now openSUSE, and to try and resurrect it to its "past glory" (how many posts does this thread consist of? I count 40 at the moment but this is after I started to pay attention to it since 9 December......). Just a comment, not trying to start a flame war. It's just I do not know of any other distro which is going thru the same agonising, hand-wringing , process. That's all. Pax to everyone :-) . BC -- The calendar's days are numbered! -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Mandag den 13. december 2010 08:03:35 skrev Basil Chupin:

It's just I do not know of any other distro which is going thru the same agonising, hand-wringing , process. That's all.

Cuz either they have top-down, centralized leadership/dictatorship. Or they have a clear identity from the beginning - which has been further established and cemented for years and years. Whereas openSUSE is a schizofrenic with severe identity crisis, so there's no way around it. We should have done this years ago, and if we don't get it right this time, we'll prolly not get another chance in the foreseeable future. Of course at some point, maybe the board+Jos+coolo should get together and make the final decision. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Le 14/12/2010 18:20, Martin Schlander a écrit :

Of course at some point, maybe the board+Jos+coolo should get together and make the final decision.

and ASAP would be good, whatever decision is taken :-) jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://pizzanetti.fr -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Le 14/12/2010 13:16, Jos Poortvliet a écrit :

Option one: based on our current project description:

...

The openSUSE project is a worldwide effort that promotes the use of Linux everywhere. openSUSE maintains and develops a packaging and distribution infrastructure on which it creates one of the world's most flexible and powerful Linux distributions, working together in an open, transparent and friendly manner as part of the worldwide Free and Open Source Software community.

may be good, but really pointless (I"m good, come on)

Option two: completely different but also good :D

...

The openSUSE community invites everyone that wants to work in open and friendly way to join in the creation of a powerful, up to date, productive Linux distribution based on Free and Open Source Software.

We work together on collaborative infrastructure technologies like the Build Service and provide first class software management with top rated security and a strong web infrastructure covering all other aspects of software development and use.

take this one (if most people agreee) *for at least one year*, then we could open the discussion again. Not every month... jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://pizzanetti.fr -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

<snip>

So let's do a little vote for whoever still cares:

Option one: based on our current project description:

...

The openSUSE project is a worldwide effort that promotes the use of Linux everywhere. openSUSE maintains and develops a packaging and distribution infrastructure on which it creates one of the world's most flexible and powerful Linux distributions, working together in an open, transparent and friendly manner as part of the worldwide Free and Open Source Software community.

Option two: completely different but also good :D

...

The openSUSE community invites everyone that wants to work in open and friendly way to join in the creation of a powerful, up to date, productive Linux distribution based on Free and Open Source Software.

We work together on collaborative infrastructure technologies like the Build Service and provide first class software management with top rated security and a strong web infrastructure covering all other aspects of software development and use.

Option one: +1 Robert -- Robert Schweikert MAY THE SOURCE BE WITH YOU Software Engineer Consultant LINUX rschweikert@novell.com 781-464-8147 Novell Making IT Work As One -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On Tuesday 14 December 2010 19:01:19 Martin Schlander wrote:

Tirsdag den 14. december 2010 13:16:10 skrev Jos Poortvliet:

...

So let's do a little vote for whoever still cares:

Option one: based on our current project description:

...

The openSUSE project is a worldwide effort that promotes the use of Linux everywhere. openSUSE maintains and develops a packaging and distribution infrastructure on which it creates one of the world's most flexible and powerful Linux distributions, working together in an open, transparent and friendly manner as part of the worldwide Free and Open Source Software community.

Option two: completely different but also good :D

...

The openSUSE community invites everyone that wants to work in open and friendly way to join in the creation of a powerful, up to date, productive Linux distribution based on Free and Open Source Software.

We work together on collaborative infrastructure technologies like the Build Service and provide first class software management with top rated security and a strong web infrastructure covering all other aspects of software development and use.

(x) Option two

You know you just made the life of a very consensus-focussed community manager harder, right? Two votes for option one, two votes for option two. Maybe I need to get the monkey out of the closet again and let him trow a dice. *watches monkey trow dice Ok, after careful deliberation and much thought, the decision has been made to go for option one*. I will now finish up the 'strategy', present it to the board (hoping they won't disagree with everything in there) and let them present it to the openSUSE Membership. Thanks all! *some further discussion resulting in minor changes to option one, but you'll see that later ;-)

On Monday, December 20, 2010 05:00:19 pm Jos Poortvliet wrote: ...

...

*watches monkey trow dice

Ok, after careful deliberation and much thought, the decision has been made to go for option one*. I will now finish up the 'strategy', present it to the board (hoping they won't disagree with everything in there) and let them present it to the openSUSE Membership.

Option one, is present for the last five plus years. It looks so washed out when one takes time to read other distros introduction on Distrowatch.

I'm not trying to see dice rolling again, at lest not right now, but if we want to look fresh and energized, we should give up on keeping exact the same old message for so long time. There is so many ways to say the same,

On Mon, 20 Dec 2010 19:30:40 -0600, "Rajko M." wrote: that

keeping one and the same message for five years doesn't give confidence that openSUSE has, among other things, imagination. On the other hand keeping old message gives feeling to the people that nothing is changing in openSUSE, which is currently so wrong.

Unlike software that should not be changed without need, messages to humans must be changed once in a while, or they get ignored. It is nothing new to any propagandist, but it might be to the people used to handle only software (2 votes to keep old message).

-- Regards, Rajko

Strategy? What's the goal? ;-) -- http://twitter.com/znmeb http://borasky-research.net "A mathematician is a device for turning coffee into theorems." -- Paul Erdős -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

pb@seat-1.com wrote:

On Mon, 8 Nov 2010 12:44:33 +0100 Andreas Jaeger wrote:

...

create and distribute the world's most usable Linux

Yes!

+1. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (6.2°C) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Mandag den 8. november 2010 16:38:10 skrev Juergen Weigert:

On Nov 08, 10 16:27:12 +0100, Per Jessen wrote:

...

pb@seat-1.com wrote:

...

On Mon, 8 Nov 2010 12:44:33 +0100

Andreas Jaeger wrote:

...

create and distribute the world's most usable Linux

Yes!

+1.

I like it! Quite ambitious!

That is exactly what was on the openSUSE wiki frontpage for years. It was bad then, and it's even worse now, because "usable" is either just an empty phrase that can mean whatever anyone wants it to mean, or it means "Aunt Tillie distro" - which we have spent months establishing is a bad fit for openSUSE and doesn't reflect reality. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Martin Schlander wrote:

Mandag den 8. november 2010 16:38:10 skrev Juergen Weigert:

...

On Nov 08, 10 16:27:12 +0100, Per Jessen wrote:

...

pb@seat-1.com wrote:

...

On Mon, 8 Nov 2010 12:44:33 +0100

Andreas Jaeger wrote:

...

create and distribute the world's most usable Linux

Yes!

+1.

I like it! Quite ambitious!

That is exactly what was on the openSUSE wiki frontpage for years.

It was bad then, and it's even worse now, because "usable" is either just an empty phrase that can mean whatever anyone wants it to mean,

IOW, a mission statement ..... -- Per Jessen, Zürich (5.2°C) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On 2010-11-08 17:42:09 (+0100), Holger Hetterich wrote: [...]

[...] The "world's most usable Linux" is something that depends on the users look at it. I, as a user, see the whole phrase as something like: "Ok, they want to be usable, even for my grandma, and by the same time create something new, innovative, and maintain it !".

"Usable", as Martin wrote, is really a bad term to use IMHO. It is unclear, and everyone will have her own interpretation of that term. Some may even understand it as "accessible" (as in a11y). The mission statement must be short and precise. I wholeheartedly agree with the "explaining is losing" that was cited on this thread.

And actually, that's the distribution I am looking for, both from the POV of a user or a developer.

But that is specifically what we do _not_ aim for, as of the strategy. Again, having a strategy and defining a target audience does _not_ mean that openSUSE isn't usable for less or inexperienced users (my girlfriend and my daughter use it too, and neither of them are computer wizards). It just means that our focus, during development and when we have to take decisions that can only go one way or another, we take the decision that favours our target audience. cheers -- -o) Pascal Bleser /\\ http://opensuse.org -- I took the green pill _\_v FOSDEM XI: 5 + 6 Feb 2011, http://fosdem.org

Well I think a "professional" is a person who can install Linux on his or her own. You maybe laugh about this sentence, but I know people who can´t install Windows. They aren´t professionals I think. If they can´t install Windows, the maybe can´t install Linux too. A professional should know things like this: - *What´s a swap-partition? - *Where´s root? - *Why I can´t running my Windows applications without wine or something other? Yes, that are questions they are important to me. A professional should be an advanced or power user. I think that´s say all. Regards, kdl -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- From: Holger Hetterich Sent: Friday, November 12, 2010 8:32 AM To: opensuse-project@opensuse.org Subject: Re: [opensuse-project] What's the latest on the strategy discussion? Am Freitag, den 12.11.2010, 00:41 +0100 schrieb Pascal Bleser:

On 2010-11-08 17:42:09 (+0100), Holger Hetterich wrote: [...]

...

[...] The "world's most usable Linux" is something that depends on the users look at it. I, as a user, see the whole phrase as something like: "Ok, they want to be usable, even for my grandma, and by the same time create something new, innovative, and maintain it !".

"Usable", as Martin wrote, is really a bad term to use IMHO. It is unclear, and everyone will have her own interpretation of that term. Some may even understand it as "accessible" (as in a11y).

You will always have a personal interpretation of an individual on any terms you have in a strategy statement. For example, what defines someone being a "professional" (used in other suggestions)? What will a "professional" from the film industry expect from a linux distribution for professionals? Also, I don't have a problem in that someone understands it as accessible as in a11y, and having those in the target audience included.

The mission statement must be short and precise.

It is already short. The more precise you get, the more possible users will be lost. Is that the idea?

I wholeheartedly agree with the "explaining is losing" that was cited on this thread.

You will always have to explain it. There's no way around it.

...

And actually, that's the distribution I am looking for, both from the POV of a user or a developer.

But that is specifically what we do _not_ aim for, as of the strategy.

Again, having a strategy and defining a target audience does _not_ mean that openSUSE isn't usable for less or inexperienced users (my girlfriend and my daughter use it too, and neither of them are computer wizards).

I never had doubts on that.

It just means that our focus, during development and when we have to take decisions that can only go one way or another, we take the decision that favours our target audience.

And that would be to decide for the solution that provides the best usability, while trying to maintain a good platform for development and innovation. What is the problem? Linux isn't exactly known for being usable for the masses. I think a distribution showing it can be usable is a remarkable goal. Holger

cheers

-- Holger Hetterich, hhetter@novell.com, SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) Maxfeldstr. 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Holger, I think you understood me. It´s not to my mind to leave out users who aren´t professionals. This would be unfriendly, unfair and in my eyes not the right way. I wrote another mail to the mailinglist. In this mail is a concept to make openSUSE good for both user groups. Hope you can understand me now ;) regards, kdl -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- From: Holger Hetterich Sent: Friday, November 12, 2010 6:26 PM To: opensuse-project@opensuse.org Subject: Re: [opensuse-project] What's the latest on the strategy discussion? Am Freitag, den 12.11.2010, 17:48 +0100 schrieb Kim Leyendecker:

Well I think a "professional" is a person who can install Linux on his or her own. You maybe laugh about this sentence, but I know people who can´t install Windows. They aren´t professionals I think. If they can´t install Windows, the maybe can´t install Linux too. A professional should know things like this:

- *What´s a swap-partition? - *Where´s root? - *Why I can´t running my Windows applications without wine or something other?

Yes, that are questions they are important to me. A professional should be an advanced or power user. I think that´s say all.

Kim, your definition of an advanced user or "professional" is perfectly fine to me. I am in doubt that a strategy statement using "professionals" or even "advanced users" is a good idea, as this will leave out all those who don't know what a swap partition is. And why should openSUSE not attract those people too? One of the suggestions says "We Create and Distribute". If openSUSE manages do to exactly that, openSUSE will attract developers. (and I personally think openSUSE has all the ground technology to be able to). Power Users, or "professionals", or advanced users will follow automatically to where development takes place, as those are following software development better than others. At leasts that's my thinking. There's no reason to leave those out who are not professional. In fact I believe a good portion of them are future contributers, once they discovered the power of linux. Cheers, Holger

Regards, kdl

-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- From: Holger Hetterich Sent: Friday, November 12, 2010 8:32 AM To: opensuse-project@opensuse.org Subject: Re: [opensuse-project] What's the latest on the strategy discussion?

Am Freitag, den 12.11.2010, 00:41 +0100 schrieb Pascal Bleser:

...

On 2010-11-08 17:42:09 (+0100), Holger Hetterich wrote: [...]

...

[...] The "world's most usable Linux" is something that depends on the users look at it. I, as a user, see the whole phrase as something like: "Ok, they want to be usable, even for my grandma, and by the same time create something new, innovative, and maintain it !".

"Usable", as Martin wrote, is really a bad term to use IMHO. It is unclear, and everyone will have her own interpretation of that term. Some may even understand it as "accessible" (as in a11y).

You will always have a personal interpretation of an individual on any terms you have in a strategy statement. For example, what defines someone being a "professional" (used in other suggestions)? What will a "professional" from the film industry expect from a linux distribution for professionals?

Also, I don't have a problem in that someone understands it as accessible as in a11y, and having those in the target audience included.

...

The mission statement must be short and precise.

It is already short. The more precise you get, the more possible users will be lost. Is that the idea?

...

I wholeheartedly agree with the "explaining is losing" that was cited on this thread.

You will always have to explain it. There's no way around it.

...

...

And actually, that's the distribution I am looking for, both from the POV of a user or a developer.

But that is specifically what we do _not_ aim for, as of the strategy.

Again, having a strategy and defining a target audience does _not_ mean that openSUSE isn't usable for less or inexperienced users (my girlfriend and my daughter use it too, and neither of them are computer wizards).

I never had doubts on that.

...

It just means that our focus, during development and when we have to take decisions that can only go one way or another, we take the decision that favours our target audience.

And that would be to decide for the solution that provides the best usability, while trying to maintain a good platform for development and innovation. What is the problem?

Linux isn't exactly known for being usable for the masses. I think a distribution showing it can be usable is a remarkable goal.

Holger

...

cheers

-- Holger Hetterich, hhetter@novell.com, SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) Maxfeldstr. 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany

-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

-- Holger Hetterich, hhetter@novell.com, SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) Maxfeldstr. 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On 11/8/10 6:18 PM, Juergen Weigert wrote:

On Nov 08, 10 17:11:49 +0100, Martin Schlander wrote:

...

...

...

...

Andreas Jaeger wrote:

...

create and distribute the world's most usable Linux Yes! +1.

+1 While it might not be the most inclusive of everything we value in the distro. Its a perfect short phrase to add bullet points below. I've not commented on much of this, but have been following the discussion carefully...

...

...

I like it! Quite ambitious!

That is exactly what was on the openSUSE wiki frontpage for years.

It was bad then, and it's even worse now, because "usable" is either just an empty phrase that can mean whatever anyone wants it to mean, or it means "Aunt Tillie distro" - which we have spent months establishing is a bad fit for openSUSE and doesn't reflect reality.

You are correct in that we need a sound definition, of what we understand by usable. (That definition is not part of the mission statement, but should be prepared too). I understand 'more usable' in terms of making it more efficient in a general sense. Not in the sense of simplification that would hinder complex work.

I disagree with the conclusion that we should not strive for a usable system. To me, aunt Tillie's name conveys the idea of a disrespected end user. I wouldn't want to discriminate against any user group in the mission statement.

Agreed there as well. My non-geek wife is perfectly at ease with any of my desktops or laptops running openSUSE :) Even better she likes them better than my macbook :-)

cheers, JW-

Cheers, Peter -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On 2010-11-08 jdd offered the following:

Le 08/11/2010 18:39, Peter Linnell a écrit :

...

Agreed there as well. My non-geek wife is perfectly at ease with any of my desktops or laptops running openSUSE :) Even better she likes them better than my macbook :-)

from memory, the strategy project say that we don't "aim' to unexperienced user, with the exception of the ones backed up by a power user :-))

I just do like you do, with one of my daugthers.

jdd

...careful...you can go to jail for that :) Richard -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Kostas Koudaras wrote:

2010/11/8 jdd :

...

Le 08/11/2010 18:39, Peter Linnell a écrit :

...

Agreed there as well. My non-geek wife is perfectly at ease with any of my desktops or laptops running openSUSE :) Even better she likes them better than my macbook :-)

from memory, the strategy project say that we don't "aim' to unexperienced user, with the exception of the ones backed up by a power user :-))

I strongly disagree with that,isn't that why forums exist? To help the unexperienced user?

Fora are there because some people prefer that style of interface. For some reason it does appear to be particularly attractive to less experienced users.

If what you say is true I would be still using windows or Ubuntu, along with many others. Also making unexperienced users use openSUSE should be one of our top priorities.

Well, it's not where the latest strategy discussions have been heading. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (4.1°C) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

2010/11/10 Jim Henderson :

On Tue, 09 Nov 2010 08:13:41 +0100, Per Jessen wrote:

...

...

I strongly disagree with that,isn't that why forums exist? To help the unexperienced user?

Fora are there because some people prefer that style of interface. For some reason it does appear to be particularly attractive to less experienced users.

I think what Kostas is talking about is not "fora" like the openSUSE Forums, but rather "online discussion venues", whether they be web-based forums, newsgroups, mailing lists, etc.   IOW, I think he's talking in a more generic sense.

You got me right,although I confess I was not clear enough at what I said

Building on what I wrote a couple minutes ago, I would see "providing community support venues" as a part of the definition of "usable" in the broader sense of the proposed mission statement.  I would also probably include end-user training (formal and informal) as part of what helps us meet that goal of being "usable".

Jim

--  Jim Henderson  Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits

-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Now unfortunately I signed in late int that list, (a few days ago) and I lost most of the discussion about the Strategy but I would like to tell what are some the words we should focus under my opinion and the word we should not,better late than never... I know that it is off topic and if you like ignore it. I believe we should focus on the words Freedom,Community, Leadership, Global and the phrase "openSUSE Project for freedom" The words on the other hand we should avoid like hell is User-friendly(for what kind of user is friendly?are we all of the same level and the same type of users?) and innovation (when ever I hear it I think of people try to convince me that making my life hard is blessing). Especially if you are an ambassador and you try to convince average users to change distribution those are very tricky words,I once made a Fedora ambassador very sorry for bringing those words up. Kostas "Warlordfff" Koudaras -- http://opensuse.gr http://amb.opensuse.gr http://warlordfff.tk me I am not me ------- Time travel is possible, you just need to know the right aliens I gave exams for God , but I failed in miracles -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On Mon, 08 Nov 2010 17:11:49 +0100, Martin Schlander wrote:

That is exactly what was on the openSUSE wiki frontpage for years.

It was bad then, and it's even worse now, because "usable" is either just an empty phrase that can mean whatever anyone wants it to mean, or it means "Aunt Tillie distro" - which we have spent months establishing is a bad fit for openSUSE and doesn't reflect reality.

I don't entirely disagree with this, but I don't entirely agree with it either. I think from the standpoint of a "mission statement", this is nice and concise. What's important when you put a mission statement together, though, is that it be followed by definitions that help the reader understand what is meant if the language isn't clear (though ideally, that would be self-evident - in some cases that is easy to do, in others - like ours - I think it's less easy to do because of the complexity of what we're talking about). I think that's something I haven't entirely seen conveyed in the strategy discussion (though I got busy and have missed some of the discussion over the past few weeks). Questions that a definition for "usable" needs to answer are: * For Whom? (ie, who is the target audience?) * How will we achieve that goal? * How will we measure our success in this area? There are probably other questions that it should answer as well. Jim -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On Thu, 11 Nov 2010 08:35:50 +0100, Per Jessen wrote:

Top-level mission statements and strategies never (or only extremely rarely) come in the SMART format:

Specific, Measurable, Attainable, Realistic, Timely

Right, but those are the questions that a mission statement/strategy beg to be asked, and they need to be answered even if they're not part of the actual declaration.

In the average organisation, the SMARTness (if practiced at all) is usually only introduced at the lower levels, i.e. departmental and personal.

I think your question "for whom" is covered by the strategy proposal, as well as "how will we achieve that goal", but I have not seen any suggestions on how to measure our success.

That's one of the biggest challenges I think we're facing (I've also not seen any suggestions on how to measure success, and I realise that I've not also made any suggestions along those lines either - it's not an easy thing to identify measures for). If we can't measure our success, then by definition we don't know if we're being successful in achieving the goal. Jim -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On Thu, 11 Nov 2010 20:21:32 +0100, jdd wrote:

Le 11/11/2010 20:02, Jim Henderson a écrit :

...

thing to identify measures for). If we can't measure our success, then by definition we don't know if we're being successful in achieving the

we can hace a clue by the number of hits on download.opensuse.org, or only on the update cals

but of course we can't know who do the request

This isn't a bad starting point, but adoption is only one measure that can be applied. Other measures that could be applied would include community membership growth, bugs reported/resolved and feature suggestions made/implemented. Jim -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On Thu, 11 Nov 2010 21:31:11 +0100, Per Jessen wrote:

Jim Henderson wrote:

...

On Thu, 11 Nov 2010 08:35:50 +0100, Per Jessen wrote:

...

Top-level mission statements and strategies never (or only extremely rarely) come in the SMART format:

Specific, Measurable, Attainable, Realistic, Timely

Right, but those are the questions that a mission statement/strategy beg to be asked, and they need to be answered even if they're not part of the actual declaration.

Giddyup, Don Quijote. :-)

:-)

We, i.e. the openSUSE project, are nowhere near organised enough to begin contemplating answering such questions. I also don't think we really need to, certainly not at the moment.

If that's the case (and I don't know that it is), then perhaps the first thing we need to do is work on getting organised so we *can* answer those types questions. If we can't answer those questions, then the vision/ strategy can't hold any meaning or provide a useful definition of what the project is about. Jim -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

* Matt Gray [11-11-10 04:29]:

"Opensuse aims to enable professional users by becoming the number one portal for the development, distribution, and use of linux software."

Nice, but appears pointed *only* at professional "users". Too narrow scope. -- Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA HOG # US1244711 http://wahoo.no-ip.org Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://counter.li.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On Thu, 11 Nov 2010 09:27:17 +0000, Matt Gray wrote:

"Opensuse aims to enable professional users by becoming the number one portal for the development, distribution, and use of linux software."

How do we define a "professional user"?

ie, is a professional user a:

* Computing professional * IT person * Enterprise user * Advanced home user (and if so, how do we define "advanced"?)

I think a professional user is that all. But the Enterprise User can use SUSE Linux Enterprise. That´s not the "problem" of openSUSE. I think he means an advanced user. In my eyes, this is a user who can install software via the terminal, know how Linux works and maybe who can write code in C. Regards, kdl -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- From: Jim Henderson Sent: Thursday, November 11, 2010 7:59 PM To: opensuse-project@opensuse.org Subject: [opensuse-project] Re: What's the latest on the strategy discussion? On Thu, 11 Nov 2010 09:27:17 +0000, Matt Gray wrote:

"Opensuse aims to enable professional users by becoming the number one portal for the development, distribution, and use of linux software."

How do we define a "professional user"? ie, is a professional user a: * Computing professional * IT person * Enterprise user * Advanced home user (and if so, how do we define "advanced"?) Jim -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On Thu, 11 Nov 2010 20:28:35 +0100, Kim Leyendecker wrote:

...

How do we define a "professional user"?

ie, is a professional user a:

* Computing professional * IT person * Enterprise user * Advanced home user (and if so, how do we define "advanced"?)

I think a professional user is that all. But the Enterprise User can use SUSE Linux Enterprise. That´s not the "problem" of openSUSE. I think he means an advanced user. In my eyes, this is a user who can install software via the terminal, know how Linux works and maybe who can write code in C.

We have a fairly significant audience that is non-coders, though. "Advanced" is also a fairly ambiguous term - but also we have to have "beginner" users, otherwise people don't grow into "advanced". That would imply (to me) that our intention to grow our user community is to take users who got their start on other distributions. I would think we'd want to grow our community by taking users from the Windows (and other desktop/server OS) user base. Otherwise, we're really talking about a Linux for Linux users, and I think that limits our userbase too much. Jim -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On Fri, 12 Nov 2010 18:28:08 +0100, Kim Leyendecker wrote:

Well, do you know SUSE Linux Personal or SUSE Linux Professional? I think so.

I´ve got an concept that maybe can stop them. I use this for my own distribution I´ve built with SUSE Studio.

This concept looks like this:

openSUSE: This system is for the beginners and for "home-users".

openSUSE Professional: This system is for advanced users who can work with a system that´s maybe must be administrate over the terminal.

But I think today openSUSE is a distribution for both user groups.

Given the number of new users we see in the forums, I would tend to agree that it is used by both user groups. However, even that kind of definition doesn't work well, because I myself use openSUSE at home. ;-) My point being, "beginners" and "home users" are not equivalent. One can be a "home user" and be an "advanced user", and I suspect that many of the readership of this list are in that category. This is why I think it's important to define the audience, even if it isn't part of the mission statement (ie, the words explaining the definition aren't in that statement). Jim -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Personally I would like: Opensuse - Linux for You! this sentence We cater to beginner or advanced users who i would say We cater to users who Alin On 11 November 2010 23:27, Thomas Thym wrote:

On Thursday 11 November 2010 20:28:35 wrote Kim Leyendecker:

...

...

On Thu, 11 Nov 2010 09:27:17 +0000, Matt Gray wrote:

"Opensuse aims to enable professional users by becoming the number one portal for the development, distribution, and use of linux software."

How do we define a "professional user"?

ie, is a professional user a:

* Computing professional * IT person * Enterprise user * Advanced home user (and if so, how do we define "advanced"?)

I think a professional user is that all. But the Enterprise User can use SUSE Linux Enterprise. That´s not the "problem" of openSUSE. I think he means an advanced user. In my eyes, this is a user who can install software via the terminal, know how Linux works and maybe who can write code in C.

Regards,

kdl

-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- From: Jim Henderson Sent: Thursday, November 11, 2010 7:59 PM To: opensuse-project@opensuse.org Subject: [opensuse-project] Re: What's the latest on the strategy discussion?

On Thu, 11 Nov 2010 09:27:17 +0000, Matt Gray wrote:

...

"Opensuse aims to enable professional users by becoming the number one portal for the development, distribution, and use of linux software."

How do we define a "professional user"?

ie, is a professional user a:

* Computing professional * IT person * Enterprise user * Advanced home user (and if so, how do we define "advanced"?)

Jim

I personally don't like the term "professional" very much, because many things can be professional. In the strategy discussion we moved on, defining the target user as the "interested user who is willing to learn". Such a user is able (and willing) e.g. to use a forum. We don't have the ressources to spoonfeed too many and we don't want to limit the flexibility of the user by making it "aunt tilly"-friendly.

For more detaily see the strategy proposal here: https://lite.co-ment.com/text/lNPCgzeGHdV/view/ (This site requires Firefox. Konqueror and Rekonq are not working properly.)

Cheers, Thomas -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

-- I force myself to contradict myself in order to avoid conforming to my own taste. -- Marcel Duchamp Without Questions there are no Answers! _____________________________________________________________________ Alin Marin ELENA Advanced Molecular Simulation Research Laboratory School of Physics, University College Dublin ---- Ardionsamblú Móilíneach Saotharlann Taighde Scoil na Fisice, An Coláiste Ollscoile, Baile Átha Cliath ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Address: Room 318, UCD Engineering and Material Science Centre University College Dublin Belfield, Dublin 4, Ireland ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://alin.elenaworld.net alin.elena@ucdconnect.ie, alinm.elena@gmail.com ______________________________________________________________________ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On 11/11/10 18:59, Jim Henderson wrote:

On Thu, 11 Nov 2010 09:27:17 +0000, Matt Gray wrote:

...

"Opensuse aims to enable professional users by becoming the number one portal for the development, distribution, and use of linux software. How do we define a "professional user"?

ie, is a professional user a:

* Computing professional * IT person * Enterprise user * Advanced home user (and if so, how do we define "advanced"?)

Jim

good question, but i'd like to say it certainly isn't exclusive to those who know how to use the command line or code C, as suggested above. i certainly cannot do the above, but I work in an office that uses gentoo and blender all day long, these I would consider professional users. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On Fri, 12 Nov 2010 13:11:59 +0000, Administrator wrote:

Can I make a suggestion: that we separate the definition of the detail from the strategy itself. These definitions should be in an appendix to the strategy (and will probably change over time). The strategy (e.g. for the professional user) should stay more or less the same.

If we agree to this, we need to create a list of the main words or phrases which need definition as we go along, and then come back to them (or choose a small group of people who care) to create a definition.

This way we can agree the strategy without spending weeks discussing in detail such concepts as "professional" or "power user" or "meritocracy".

How do you propose we reach agreement on a strategy prior to defining the terms used in the strategy? ie, if we agree that openSUSE is for "professional users", how would you expect anyone to agree on that strategy without a definition for what a "professional user" is? Jim -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On Friday 12 November 2010 14:20:55 Freek de Kruijf wrote:

Op vrijdag 12 november 2010 21:07:20 schreef Jim Henderson:

...

How do you propose we reach agreement on a strategy prior to defining the terms used in the strategy?

ie, if we agree that openSUSE is for "professional users", how would you expect anyone to agree on that strategy without a definition for what a "professional user" is?

Simple, any user who considers him/herself a "professional user".

Yes, that is one of options :) My understanding of professional use case, in its widest meaning, is that there should be no interruptions in daily work, but if it comes to problems way back to stable environment should be as easy and fast as possible. What that means in practice? A lot of improvements to current defaults, like: * take special care of software that can break whole system, ** list all packages that can do that * keep old copy handy for easy replay, ** above listed packages will always have backup copy * make one stable kernel always present as alternative, ** to prevent guesswork, let user decide which kernel is stable Power users than can fix system, will benefit from having easy replay, because they will spend lesser time reverting problematic changes, more doing what they think it is a purpose of computers. Distro will benefit from such system as users will not be afraid to install newer versions if going back to working stuff is easy. Where easy doesn't mean: going to YaST Software Management and digging in tabs (Version) to find some numbers as versions, without notion of last installed , previous installed. -- Regards, Rajko -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On Saturday 13 November 2010 14:58:18 Kim Leyendecker wrote:

Yes, that´s looks good. I think a professional user is a person, who works as admin. But he can be a person who likes computers, especially running Linux and he know many about this system and his issues or something like this. I think, a professional user can be put in two groups:

- Nerds, Geeks and Hackers: I think this is explaining by his self.

- The Home/Business-Pro: He knows many about Linux, can fix the system and do the things Raiko M. says before.

Kim, When we talk about professional, it is not only about computer and Linux skills, but even if we narrow that to Linux professional, it is impossible to know all aspects of Linux computing equally good. Even Linux professional will appreciate that system as a whole is stable, so that he can play with components that he knows good. Professionals in other branches need stable system, so that they can actually use software that is specific for their expertize, which can help adoption rates when other around them see that computer just works. When we go one step down to the Linux power user, a need for overall stability is still present, as it is better to do something useful, even if that is still attempt to break something, then to spend time fixing the system. Then we can go one more step lower to the users that can understand instructions how to fix a problem, but with much more lost time. They need their computer running, as they probably want to do something else. All users benefit from stable system, but having time for something else, is useful for openSUSE too, like translating in their language, help fixing usability bugs, planing next event, helping new users, installing openSUSE to other people's computers (with confidence it will work), learning how to use graphic programs, learning principles of graphic design, trying to connect their instruments to computer, and so on. Next step down in Linux skill level are new users that need stable system to use it at all. They don't know how to fix system, they don't know much how to configure system, but with stable system they have chance to learn how to use it. BTW, providing system that works nicely means much more time will be spent on surrounding activities, not fighting bugs that majority are anyway not qualified to do, not even to provide reasonably good feedback without a lot of hand holding. One of problems that openSUSE had in previous releases is too many annoyances that can be overcome with some Linux experience, but I don't see the question: "How many other people such experienced user can serve, after he is done with his computer?" In other words, increasing quality will give chance current users to spread openSUSE, not just word about it :)

regards kdl

-- Regards, Rajko -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

I´m understanding what you mean. I think a stable system for every one.

Professionals in other branches need stable system, so that they can actually use software that is specific for their expertize, which can help adoption rates when other around them see that computer just works.

I think these users mostly use SUSE Linux Enterprise. That´s in generell not the problem of openSUSE (Yes, I know that openSUSE is the basesystem of SUSE Linux Enterprise). -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- From: Rajko M. Sent: Sunday, November 14, 2010 12:35 AM To: opensuse-project@opensuse.org Subject: Re: [opensuse-project] Re: What's the latest on the strategy discussion? (Why not focus on quality?) On Saturday 13 November 2010 14:58:18 Kim Leyendecker wrote:

Yes, that´s looks good. I think a professional user is a person, who works as admin. But he can be a person who likes computers, especially running Linux and he know many about this system and his issues or something like this. I think, a professional user can be put in two groups:

- Nerds, Geeks and Hackers: I think this is explaining by his self.

- The Home/Business-Pro: He knows many about Linux, can fix the system and do the things Raiko M. says before.

Kim, When we talk about professional, it is not only about computer and Linux skills, but even if we narrow that to Linux professional, it is impossible to know all aspects of Linux computing equally good. Even Linux professional will appreciate that system as a whole is stable, so that he can play with components that he knows good. Professionals in other branches need stable system, so that they can actually use software that is specific for their expertize, which can help adoption rates when other around them see that computer just works. When we go one step down to the Linux power user, a need for overall stability is still present, as it is better to do something useful, even if that is still attempt to break something, then to spend time fixing the system. Then we can go one more step lower to the users that can understand instructions how to fix a problem, but with much more lost time. They need their computer running, as they probably want to do something else. All users benefit from stable system, but having time for something else, is useful for openSUSE too, like translating in their language, help fixing usability bugs, planing next event, helping new users, installing openSUSE to other people's computers (with confidence it will work), learning how to use graphic programs, learning principles of graphic design, trying to connect their instruments to computer, and so on. Next step down in Linux skill level are new users that need stable system to use it at all. They don't know how to fix system, they don't know much how to configure system, but with stable system they have chance to learn how to use it. BTW, providing system that works nicely means much more time will be spent on surrounding activities, not fighting bugs that majority are anyway not qualified to do, not even to provide reasonably good feedback without a lot of hand holding. One of problems that openSUSE had in previous releases is too many annoyances that can be overcome with some Linux experience, but I don't see the question: "How many other people such experienced user can serve, after he is done with his computer?" In other words, increasing quality will give chance current users to spread openSUSE, not just word about it :)

regards kdl

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