[opensuse-project] How does the decision making progress is called
Hi, In a recent mail to opensuse-factory [1] , regarding the implementation of Secure Boot for openSUSE - a proposal for the coming openSUSE release here is what Andreas wrote "Based on the feedback on this mailing list as well on opensuse-project, this is a clear "go" for the proposal." Now let me begin by stating the proposal is fine, and I am in favor of it. Nevertheless, the way "clear go " is defined makes me wonder, if the community is a follower or the leader. I thought the poll system was to include the community in situations like this, giving the opportunity to be involved in the decision process. If what has been preached is not practiced then what does opensuse member system stands for other than giving the email, irc cloaking and similar things. Togan http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-factory/2012-08/msg00294.html -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
On Monday 13 Aug 2012 14:29:40 Togan Muftuoglu wrote:
Nevertheless, the way "clear go " is defined makes me wonder, if the community is a follower or the leader. I thought the poll system was to include the community in situations like this, giving the opportunity to be involved in the decision process.
The issue was discussed at length on the mailing lists with contributions from lots of community members. At this point when the problem had been discussed to death, no community members who were either willing or technically capable of investigating the options had publiclly announced to the list any intention to do so. Around about this time, on the 25th June Marcus Meissner announced[1] to the list some colleagues were looking into the problem but nothing had been finalised. Then recently AJ[2] announced to the list that there had been some progress and that he and the engineers involved would communicate[3] their investigations and proposals. So all in all, there's been plenty of discussion, plenty of opportunity for comunnity members to get involved and now we have a viable elegant proposal which is flexible enough for our needs. I don't see a problem with any of this. Cheers the noo, Graham [1]http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-project/2012-06/msg00229.html [2]http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-project/2012-08/msg00045.html [3]http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-project/2012-08/msg00046.html -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2012-08-13 14:54, Graham Anderson wrote:
The issue was discussed at length on the mailing lists with contributions from lots of community members.
Not after the proposal was made... - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.4 x86_64 "Celadon" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAlAo/tUACgkQIvFNjefEBxp8yQCfSRePAj04fRszG29pb/3aWPbr 7G8An18I6/7MDPA0nCoAddCAj+bJSzjp =oF+n -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
Quoting "Carlos E. R."
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On 2012-08-13 14:54, Graham Anderson wrote:
The issue was discussed at length on the mailing lists with contributions from lots of community members.
Not after the proposal was made...
Have there been objections? Viable counter-proposals? Anybody CAPABLE of DOING stuff (not only 'talking stuff')? If not, I'd really say: we agree to the proposal (which was the main 'felt voices') and do not try to distract the guys doing the great work. They can as well decide to ditch it, run away and leave us here without a solution (as, as seen before: nobody stepped up so far to DO stuff). Dominique (This community should stop discussing the matter of discussion.. and get back to making the best Linux distribution on the planet) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
On 08/13/2012 03:30 PM, Dominique Leuenberger a.k.a DimStar wrote:
Dominique
(This community should stop discussing the matter of discussion.. and get back to making the best Linux distribution on the planet)
If this is how you think, care to elaborate how to make the best (which is relative anyway) Linux distribution on the planet or just go ahead and do it regardless of what other members think or feel about it. The issue is not Secure boot proposal, but how the decisions are being made that effect the whole at the end. Today it is SecureBoot, tommorrow it will be systemd and so on. Togan -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
Togan Muftuoglu wrote:
On 08/13/2012 03:30 PM, Dominique Leuenberger a.k.a DimStar wrote:
Dominique
(This community should stop discussing the matter of discussion.. and get back to making the best Linux distribution on the planet)
If this is how you think, care to elaborate how to make the best (which is relative anyway) Linux distribution on the planet or just go ahead and do it regardless of what other members think or feel about it.
The issue is not Secure boot proposal, but how the decisions are being made that effect the whole at the end. Today it is SecureBoot, tommorrow it will be systemd and so on.
I think the truth is that there is no real process. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (26.0°C) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
On Monday, August 13, 2012 05:57:37 PM Per Jessen wrote:
Togan Muftuoglu wrote:
On 08/13/2012 03:30 PM, Dominique Leuenberger a.k.a DimStar wrote:
Dominique
(This community should stop discussing the matter of discussion.. and get back to making the best Linux distribution on the planet)
If this is how you think, care to elaborate how to make the best (which is relative anyway) Linux distribution on the planet or just go ahead and do it regardless of what other members think or feel about it.
The issue is not Secure boot proposal, but how the decisions are being made that effect the whole at the end. Today it is SecureBoot, tommorrow it will be systemd and so on.
I think the truth is that there is no real process.
Discussions were taking place on mailing list and irc as far as I saw for long time. Many participants were presented on different channels None had a final solutions or viable proposal except final recent accepted proposal If anybody has a better proposal to solve the Secure Boot issue please make your move in. Otherwise, I don't see any point to start another pointless debate. Regards, -- Ricardo Chung | Panama Linux and FOSS Projects Ambassador openSUSE Project -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
On 08/13/2012 02:29 PM, Togan Muftuoglu wrote:
Hi,
In a recent mail to opensuse-factory [1] , regarding the implementation of Secure Boot for openSUSE - a proposal for the coming openSUSE release here is what Andreas wrote
"Based on the feedback on this mailing list as well on opensuse-project, this is a clear "go" for the proposal."
Now let me begin by stating the proposal is fine, and I am in favor of it.
Nevertheless, the way "clear go " is defined makes me wonder, if the community is a follower or the leader. I thought the poll system was to include the community in situations like this, giving the opportunity to be involved in the decision process.
I'm not getting your point. Polls are done if there is no obvious solution. In this case, no poll was needed since everybody considered it a good proposal.
If what has been preached is not practiced then what does opensuse member system stands for other than giving the email, irc cloaking and similar things.
What do you think is preached and do not see it in practice? Please be a bit more specific. Andreas -- Andreas Jaeger aj@{suse.com,opensuse.org} Twitter/Identica: jaegerandi SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, Maxfeldstr. 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany GF: Jeff Hawn,Jennifer Guild,Felix Imendörffer,HRB16746 (AG Nürnberg) GPG fingerprint = 93A3 365E CE47 B889 DF7F FED1 389A 563C C272 A126 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2012-08-13 16:07, Andreas Jaeger wrote:
On 08/13/2012 02:29 PM, Togan Muftuoglu wrote:
I'm not getting your point. Polls are done if there is no obvious solution. In this case, no poll was needed since everybody considered it a good proposal.
I think the proposal is a good one, I would accept it, but there has not been any discussion of it before accepting it. I would like to hear pros and cons first, then the community should decide. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.4 x86_64 "Celadon" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAlApDPAACgkQIvFNjefEBxrb5gCfTyAW+hnSEDQBzemjxf3RfO1i s0QAoNfbxEmWdbndH74cooSZ1bCW/ddR =l9U/ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
Le lundi 13 août 2012, à 16:19 +0200, Carlos E. R. a écrit :
On 2012-08-13 16:07, Andreas Jaeger wrote:
On 08/13/2012 02:29 PM, Togan Muftuoglu wrote:
I'm not getting your point. Polls are done if there is no obvious solution. In this case, no poll was needed since everybody considered it a good proposal.
I think the proposal is a good one, I would accept it, but there has not been any discussion of it before accepting it. I would like to hear pros and cons first, then the community should decide.
It was discussed: http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-factory/2012-08/msg00228.html Vincent -- Les gens heureux ne sont pas pressés. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
On Monday 13 Aug 2012 16:39:26 Vincent Untz wrote:
Le lundi 13 août 2012, à 16:19 +0200, Carlos E. R. a écrit :
On 2012-08-13 16:07, Andreas Jaeger wrote:
On 08/13/2012 02:29 PM, Togan Muftuoglu wrote:
I'm not getting your point. Polls are done if there is no obvious solution. In this case, no poll was needed since everybody considered it a good proposal.
I think the proposal is a good one, I would accept it, but there has not been any discussion of it before accepting it. I would like to hear pros and cons first, then the community should decide.
It was discussed: http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-factory/2012-08/msg00228.html
Exactly and anyone who cares can contribute their thoughts, technical concerns or offer counter proposals at any time in the thread Vincent linked. So lets please move on before we make *this* thread another endless cycle of bikeshedding. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
On Mon, Aug 13, 2012 at 04:39:26PM +0200, Vincent Untz wrote:
Le lundi 13 août 2012, à 16:19 +0200, Carlos E. R. a écrit :
On 2012-08-13 16:07, Andreas Jaeger wrote:
On 08/13/2012 02:29 PM, Togan Muftuoglu wrote:
I'm not getting your point. Polls are done if there is no obvious solution. In this case, no poll was needed since everybody considered it a good proposal.
I think the proposal is a good one, I would accept it, but there has not been any discussion of it before accepting it. I would like to hear pros and cons first, then the community should decide.
It was discussed: http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-factory/2012-08/msg00228.html
There was a very long thread on opensuse-project. e.g. start here: http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-project/2012-06/msg00018.html However ... the UEFI problem is an issue where there are clear constraints and requirements and not much different solution methods. As it is still being implemented, details can still be discussed of course. Do you have a specific design/technical issue with the current state here? Ciao, Marcus -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2012-08-13 16:39, Vincent Untz wrote:
Le lundi 13 août 2012, à 16:19 +0200, Carlos E. R. a écrit :
On 2012-08-13 16:07, Andreas Jaeger wrote:
On 08/13/2012 02:29 PM, Togan Muftuoglu wrote:
I think the proposal is a good one, I would accept it, but there has not been any discussion of it before accepting it. I would like to hear pros and cons first, then the community should decide.
It was discussed: http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-factory/2012-08/msg00228.html
I know, but that was briefly :-) - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.4 x86_64 "Celadon" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAlApNJYACgkQIvFNjefEBxpuKQCgz9InkwNVCJrMGStZvVpzrb5k 4Q0An0FgNQ3jF7iOk6/qwnFAdgU+wy9s =hwj7 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
Le lundi 13 août 2012, à 19:08 +0200, Carlos E. R. a écrit :
On 2012-08-13 16:39, Vincent Untz wrote:
Le lundi 13 août 2012, à 16:19 +0200, Carlos E. R. a écrit :
On 2012-08-13 16:07, Andreas Jaeger wrote:
On 08/13/2012 02:29 PM, Togan Muftuoglu wrote:
I think the proposal is a good one, I would accept it, but there has not been any discussion of it before accepting it. I would like to hear pros and cons first, then the community should decide.
It was discussed: http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-factory/2012-08/msg00228.html
I know, but that was briefly :-)
Well, there was overall agreement. I don't think we need (or want) long never-ending threads when there's agreement. Cheers, Vincent -- Les gens heureux ne sont pas pressés. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
On 14/08/12 00:19, Carlos E. R. wrote:
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On 2012-08-13 16:07, Andreas Jaeger wrote:
On 08/13/2012 02:29 PM, Togan Muftuoglu wrote: I'm not getting your point. Polls are done if there is no obvious solution. In this case, no poll was needed since everybody considered it a good proposal. I think the proposal is a good one, I would accept it, but there has not been any discussion of it before accepting it. I would like to hear pros and cons first, then the community should decide.
I for one welcome with open arms this decision and I think everyone else who uses openSUSE should do the same instead of carting out the old chestnut of "we haven't voted on this yet". Why do I welcome it? Because finally we have somebody actually making decisions about what should be done in openSUSE and actually providing directions to where openSUSE should go. The "Community" has shown itself to be abysmally incapable of handling anything except argue about how to vote for a "Board" and who is able to vote for this "Board" and who are "members of the community" and other la-la "in-depth" useless and pedantic concerns. A number of us have been questioning for quite some time who and how openSUSE is "managed" and who is making the decisions as to which direction it is to go. But now, thankfully, we have a post 4 days ago (10 August) by Agustin Benito Bethencourt with the subject, "update about openSUSE Team at SUSE" which, at last, shows that there is somebody who has taken the reigns. This decision re the approach to UEFI is to be applauded and those who are doing something about it should be congratulated and given all the help because NOBODY in the so-called "Community" has the slightest idea of how the heck this UEFI is going to affect openSUSE but now this matter has been taken in hand and a solution worked on. The "community" has now been moaning and groaning about this UEFI but what has it done about it? BC -- Using openSUSE 12.2 x86_64 KDE 4.8.4 & kernel 3.5.1-2 on a system with- AMD FX 8-core 3.6/4.2GHz processor 16GB PC14900/1866MHz Quad Channel Corsair "Vengeance" RAM Gigabyte AMD3+ m/board; Gigabyte nVidia GTX550Ti 1GB DDR5 GPU -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
participants (10)
-
Andreas Jaeger -
Basil Chupin -
Carlos E. R. -
Dominique Leuenberger a.k.a DimStar -
Graham Anderson -
Marcus Meissner -
Per Jessen -
Ricardo Chung -
Togan Muftuoglu -
Vincent Untz